| Author |
Message |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 1:19 pm: |     |
Loneviking I have been a member of the Nazarene church for over 30 years before I got into Judiasm. You must have heard wrong or got your idea that the Nazarenes teach "that one can become 'holy' and keep the law perfectly." from a source that does not know what they are talking about. There is not a word of truth to this statement. I understand that you may have not ment to say this. The Nazarene's never bring anything up about following Laws or rules of anykind. This is what got me involved with a group of people that was talking to me about the Sabbath and the Law still must be observed. I fell for the following of the law very quickly. Becuase the Nazarene church never talks about this stuff at all. This is how I got sucked into following the Law. And what do you mean by a person can become "holy"?
speakeasy |
Madelia (Madelia)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 4:19 am: | |
I wonder if Dr. Dobson, who has a strong pro-life message, is aware that abortions are performed in Adventist hospitals? |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 9:16 am: | |
Speakeasy, a couple of comments....
My mention of Dobson being from the Nazarene church along with the mention of the Nazarene idea of perfectionism, was to explain (possibly)why Dr. Dobson does not see SDA'ism as a cult---more likely as an aberrant sect.
My information on the Nazarenes comes from my step-mom who was Nazarene for many years before converting over to the Church of Christ and marrying my dad.
I checked the official Nazarene site--which is:
www.nazarene.org
Anyone interested can go there, click on 'values' and then 'holiness'.
You will find within the statement of what holiness means this sentence 'He (Christ) perfects us in love, enables us to live in moral uprightness and empowers us to serve.'
Did you catch the phrase 'to live in moral uprightness'? This is a buzz word for complete conformity to the Ten Commandments because we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It is the exact same teaching that the SDA's have---and I will continue to say that this is heresy.
If one wants, they can also put in 'holiness movement' or 'Weslyan perfectionism' into a search engine and find all sorts of information showing that this is indeed the position of the churches that came from the holiness movement, which had its' roots in the Wesly, and the Christian perfectionism of Charles Finney and Asa Mahan.
So, unless you have something specific to show me from the Nazarene church that refutes this, I'm sticking with my former statement. I'm not angry with you nor am I trying to down you for these beliefs, I just think some honesty is due here.
Bill |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 11:42 am: | |
I would also add these statements from the Nazarene Statement of Faith:
"We believe that the grace of entire sanctification includes the impulse to grow in grace. However, this impulse must be consciously nurtured, and careful attention given to the requisites and processes of spiritual development and improvement in Christlikeness of character and personality. Without such purposeful endeavor one's witness may be impaired and the grace itself frustrated and ultimately lost."
How can "grace" (by definition an unmerited gift) be lost through the absence of "endeavor"?
Chris |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 7:24 pm: | |
I actually got a response from focus on the family. I asked them if they were aware that Dobson had referred to Sunday as the Sabbath, mentioning there was no where in scripture this association is made. I also asked if they were aware there were cults that could use such remarks to try to convert people into their religion.
anyway...here it is:
"Thank you for writing to Focus on the Family. We understand your concerns about Dr. Dobsonís recent on-air comments in which it seemed he referred to Sunday as the Sabbath. While this is technically incorrect, as you pointed out, we think you'll agree it is not uncommon to find this correlation widespread on a popular level.
That being said, we can assure you that Dr. Dobson is aware that Sunday is not merely a Christian version of the Jewish Sabbath. Insofar as he juxtaposed the terms on-air, we would like to excuse this simply as comments made on the spur of the moment, without a script, for a broadcast that was recorded last-minute.
As you already know, the earliest Christians, themselves Jews, probably did worship on Saturday according to Jewish custom, they also held Sunday to be a day of unique significance. They called it ěThe Lordís Dayî and observed it as a memorial of Christís resurrection. In time, as the church became predominantly Gentile, the celebration of the Lordís Day entirely supplanted the observance of the Jewish Sabbath among Christians.
Perhaps more importantly, though, Dr. Dobson believes that observance of a weekly day of worship, whether it be Sunday, Saturday, or any other day, should not become a matter of religious legalism. The Apostle Paul warns us quite specifically against overscrupulousness with regard to ěSabbath daysî (Colossians 2:16). Christ has set us free for something more noble than that ń the pursuit of holiness and fellowship with the living God as a daily lifestyle. Dr. Dobson believes our highest calling is to glorify God every day of our lives, while also setting aside special times for worship with the gathered community of the church; to say with the Psalmist, ěI will bless the Lord at all times: His praise shall continually be in my mouthî (Psalm 34:1).
We hope this response has been helpful. Thanks again for taking a moment to share your comments. God's blessings to you and yours." |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 8:24 pm: | |
Melissa, thanks very much for taking the time to write to them. And I appreciate their reply... more in line with the gospel...
grace always,
cindy |
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 8:42 pm: | |
Loneviking Since you say that the Nazarenes teach that you Must follow the Law and then you will become Holy. I guess the Nazarenes and the SDA are 2 churchs that teach the Law for salvation.Then in saying this the SDA and now the Nazarenes are Teaching a different Gospel just like Paul says in Galations? |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 12:53 am: | |
Melissa, what a wonderful grace-filled response from Focus on the Family. I am impressed! Thaks for sharing.
Doug |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised by FOTF's response. I anticipated that they might defend a transference theology. This response leans much more towards the fulfillment understanding that most on this group would have and shows an unusual awareness of early church history as it relates to this matter. Bravo! ......too bad Dbson didn't say this on the air.....
Chris |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 8:42 am: | |
Although I still feel the intense stance over keeping the Ten Commandment monument in place is not where our energy and focus should be, I think Dr. Dobson--on "Larry King Live" last night--did an admirable job in speaking up for Christ. He declared his continued belief in Jesus as being (as Christ Himself proclaimed), the "Way, the Truth and the Life"...
Dobson's various books on marriage and parenting have been a great help to me. I guess that's why I was even more dismayed to hear this back-to-the-Law talk.
An interesting point Dobson mentioned was when he was talking about how our nation was founded on "Judaic-Christian" values. He told of a picture (or engraving?) in the United States House of Representatives that depicts Moses with the Ten Commandments and everyone looking towards and up to him (Moses)!
This says a lot as to where the focus has been with many Christians in this debate.
And, like Melissa questioned, what do Jews feel about this whole controversy?
grace always,
cindy |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Just a question that came to my mind when I say this statement:
An interesting point Dobson mentioned was when he was talking about how our nation was founded on "Judaic-Christian" values. He told of a picture (or engraving?) in the United States House of Representatives that depicts Moses with the Ten Commandments and everyone looking towards and up to him (Moses)!
What do you think God would say to that? Maybe it would be the same thing he said to James, Peter and John on the Mount of Transfiguration
Matthew 17
5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"
Just a thought, Carol |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 9:26 am: | |
Carol,
Exactly what I thought of, too!!
grace always,
cindy |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
I'm glad you got a response.
On another forum, the question is asked How should Christians respond to the 10 Commandment Monument. The person starting the thread feels that Sunday is the Sabbath and that no one should work or even go out to eat or shop on Sunday etc...we have discussed every aspect of this but anyways; How should we respond? Why does it matter? The 10 aren't for us, most christians will tell you this, most on the thread agree that they are not for us, so what exactly are we supporting? Why not set up monuments of the whole Torah or the star of David or any other Jewish historical monuments?
As christians shouldn't we be setting up monuments of the cross if christianity is what we are for?
This is a very confusing issue. On one had, I don't want to stifle any efforts to uphold the Bible, but on the other hand, I don't see the point.
I know that without the law we wouldn't have needed Jesus. How do you think God views all of this? Would He want the 10 commandments displayed?
I really don't know. |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:18 pm: | |
Did you hear about the library worker who was fired for wearing a cross necklace to work? The courts said her firing was illegal and she had a right to wear the cross (freedom of speech, etc.). I heard it on our local Christian Radio station's news, the case was in Kentucky. Why haven't we heard about that? |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 10:07 pm: | |
Melissa, we really don't hear much of the news relating to Christian issues unless it overlaps with politics. I resonate with Sabra's feelings of confusion and puzzlement over the issue of monuments and displays, etc. On the one hand, it seems to me that people ought to be able to represent their Biblical convictions by such things including religious Christmas stamps and decorations using Biblical themes, etc.
The problem, it seems, gets out-of-hand when people begin to see their right to have the monument as the important issue. If defending what ought to be their civil rights, they begin to focus on the monument, and it takes center stage in their consciousness. Our pastor mentioned today that when he was in college, a professor told him something that has helped him all his life. It was this: Your biggest temptation will be to let the "better" supplant the "best". Your biggest temptation won't be letting bad things crowd out the good; it will be to find that good things crowd out what is best.
That, I think, summarizes the problem with whether or not we should fight for our Christian rights to certain objects and expressions. If we spend our time fighting for our rights to display crosses or commandments, we usually lose sight of the central issue: Jesus himself.
Please don't hear me saying I'm against displaying meaningful symbols; I'm not. I just believe that God doesn't expect us to spend our energy in controversies that ultimately have nothing to do with being a true "kingdom-agent". Our devotion to Jesus should be passionate enough that whether or not we are allowed to display or practice certain religious liberties, our commitment to proclaiming Jesus will not waver or hide behind lesser causes.
I'm convinced that often the most powerful thing we're asked to do is to pray for God's intervention and revelation of truth rather than fighting for or defending Christians' "rights".
I have watched God work some astonishing miracles in the face of literal strongholds of evil, and no person can take the credit for the victories. They were clearly the result of the earnest prayers of many trusting Christ-followers, and only God could have accomplished the results that occurred.
BTW, Speakeasy, yes; if any church teaches Christians to observe the law, they are teaching Galatianism.
I praise God for his love and mercy and sovereign power!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 7:58 am: | |
Melissa,
I heard about it I think on FOXnews. I thought it was a teacher though, in a public school.
Haven't heard them saying anything to the tons of people I see wearing Buddah around their neck! |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:13 am: | |
The report I heard was a librarian in Kentucky.
Some of my initial point was what Colleen said about how far we take things. I think this person was within her rights to question the courts on the legality of her firing, but it wasn't a huge public debate. I suspect it could have been turned into the circus the monument became, but it was handled seemingly privately within the court system. I'm still surprised a cross necklace would warrant a firing, but my initial point was only to contrast the way the two situations were handled (sorry if that got lost in there somewhere). Maybe it was big, ugly and gaudy. But there are certainly even non-christians who wear crosses.
I understand Colleen's point too. But what is the line? It's a question I've always had about the story of Daniel and his praying before an open window. Would it really have been wrong for him to pray privately? I know he was set up by the jealous people around him, but is praying privately wrong? (I'm not advocating that, just asking questions...) Isn't that what persecuted Christians do in China and other places? How far out of the public's sight do we go voluntarily? When are we taking a correct stand and when do we comply? There's a difference, in my opinion, between a monument on public property and a piece of jewelry or clothing I wear on my person wherever I happen to be. I'm waiting for the day my son can't wear his VBS or church camp t-shirts to school because they have a bible verse on them.
So many questions...but I don't know the answer. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 4:34 pm: | |
Good question, Melissa. I don't really have the answer, either. I'm beginning to think that each instance is unique, and the Holy Spirit has to inform us for each decision. That is, I think, the essence of living by faith.
I see Daniel's praying in the open window as being a little bit different from civil disobedience to secure the right to display the 10 Commandments. I think we are always called to affirm our Lord. The 10 Commandments is really not a central symbol of faith for anyone except perhaps observant Jews. And even Chinese Christians meet together at night so they can enjoy fellowship without as stong a likelihood that they'll be arrested.
I'm not comfortable trying to draw a line. I'm not sure we can. I guess my main concern is that we make causes our focus instead of our intimacy with Jesus and our commitment to him. I'm not against causes or speaking out for the truth, but I think it was Cindy who posted a few days ago that she couldn't reconcile civil disobedience for the sake of a cement monument with true Christ-loyalty. (Those weren't her exact words, but that was what I understood her central point to be!)
And I also agree that there's a difference between a public monument and something I wear. I am beginning to see my own responsibility to lie in the direction of continually asking God to give me his mind and his wisdom so that I'll know God's will for my passion and even for my resistance or opposition at eany given time. I believe that God gives each of us certain issues for which we must advocate, and sometimes he does not give us the responsibility of representing certain causes personally.
Why did God place Daniel and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo in Babylon at high enough levels to have to represent him not only to Nebuchadnezzar but also to us? There may well have been other God-fearing Jews in Babylon who felt equally strongly about the issue of emperor worship vs. God worship, but God gave those four men the responsibility of resisting the king in that particular way.
I really don't have clear-cut answers. But God, I believe, teaches us and assigns us his work when he wants us to do it. Our job is to be surrendered to him and to be open to knowing what His will for us is.
I certainly don't mean that to sound like a pat answer or a superficial brush-off. I really have pondered this a lot, and I'm sure I will continue to ponder it. God's direction in my life, however, has begun to show me that I can't begin to guess what he will have me do. I just know more and more that his assignments to me involve loyalty to Jesus and a willingness to surrender my concerns to him. He actually wins the battles in which he places me; I never do. But for some reason he needs us to pray and to be willing to represent him however he directs.
I'm afraid the above sounds fatalistic or pat, and I don't mean it that way. Surrendering my impulses and desires to Jesus is one of the hardest things he's ever asked me to do. And sometimes I'm just not sure what my next move should be, and I have to surrender the situation to him again, asking him to take care of it in his way and for his glory.
Praise him for his faithfulness!
Colleen |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 8:48 pm: | |
Colleen, you have such an encouraging way of explaining things. The question on Daniel is one I have pondered since I was a child and I guess until I am faced with the situation, I won' t know exactly what God will have me do. But I have seen God move people into place to provide a support structure for me months and even years before I knew I would need one. Now when I talk to those who are my support system and find out their path to "be there" for me, I am amazed at the hand of God a long time before I ever even knew I would need such support. It is truly living by faith and I am so thankful those people responded to God when they did ... and I just don't know when I will ever get used to being in "awe" of God's care for a little one such as me. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 8:42 am: | |
Colleen,
Thank you again for your insight. You have a great way of explaining things. I just wanted to say that I listen to Focus On The Family with Dr. James Dobson on my way to work every morning on 93.3fm and the day after the monument was moved, the station aired a special recorded message where Dr. Dobson had actually gone to Montgomery to speak to the crowd concerning the situation. If any of you want to listen to the recordings concerning this issue, you can go to www.family.org and check them out in the archives.
I just thought that one question was interesting and will mention it here. One man asked this "If a judge was in session in his court room and called on the law officer at his back door to shoot a person as they walked into the door, would it be considered a violation of a direct court order or would you consider the order to be the mere ravings of a mad man? Would it then be considered a violation if the deputy did not comply? Surely we can see that this is extreme, so, as you all are asking here, just how far is this thing going to go? Where do we draw the line?
All of this reminds me of a country song which states simply "you have got to stand for something or you'll fall for anything" and seeing as how Judge Roy Moore was elected "by the people" based on his campaign promises to uphold our God given laws found in the Ten Commandments, where does one conclude that he is actually in violation of a court order when he follows the heart of the people that elected him in the first place above the decree given by one ungodly judge?
Surprisingly too, how many of us are even aware that "separation of church and state" is a very fine line in our constitution? Like so many religious people, SDAs for one, the people who come up with these extreme deviations are doing exactly the same thing with the constitution as the religious extremists are doing with God's holy word by taking text out of context in order to make it say what they want to hear!
What I see wrong with all of us, be it church or state, is that we are so concerned about "hurting" feelings that we can't see the harm that we are doing by remaining quiet. I will give you an example from my own experience just these last couple of months:
My telephone company changed my long distance service provider without my knowledge or consent and resulted in an overcharge of $56 and it took three days to get to the bottom of things before a man finally gave me an adjusted amount to pay based on my original service but the very next week I received a letter demanding that I pay it and stating that I was responsible for the bill. I was charged 30 cents a minute instead of the 10 cent plan that I had which resulted in one monthly statement being over 50 dollars too much, and after several more letters, I was turned over to a collection agency. What did this nice meek little Christian do? I immediately got online and looked up the Better Business Bureau and sent a detailed letter of the incident. I also sent BellSouth a letter with copies of all of the correspondence from all concerned with a letter stating that the next letter would definitely be a letter of apology to me personally along with a guarantee that the collection agency would cease to send the irritating letters threatening to garish my wages for something that I didn't even owe and stated that "this will be the last correspondence that you receive from me" because it was about to be taken a step higher. Now some of you may think that this wasn't very nice, some may think of me as a tattle tale of sorts, but this is what the BBB is set up for, it is to "HELP" those of us in time of need. I prayed over this before I took those steps and now that it is all said and done, I have my letter of apology from BellSouth, along with a personal phone call, apologizing for all the inconvience and begging me to come back to them for service, I also have a letter from the BBB stating that this matter is settled, and lastly "no more collection agency threats".
Another incident, concerning an IRA account dating back to 1983, that took place a couple of months ago was about my trying to get a pension group to recognize me as Lumpkin after sending me a letter under my previous name of Champion. I did not recognize the last name at the time that I read the letter and filed the necessary papers to receive my money by signing my signature on several documents. It took about four letters with copies of my driver's license, my social security card, my birth certificate, and my marriage certificate. I wrote detailed letters to these people giving them the different names that I used during my 32 years of employment and even gave them the necessary information to check me out with my current employer but to no avail. I sent them one last letter demanding the payment of my IRA account and added that I would be turning the matter over to the BBB and also that this would be the last letter after corresponding for three months with them. Once again, it may not sound like something that a sweet little Christian would do, but again, this is what the BBB is for and just the mention of the BBB got immediate results. I received both a verbal and written statement of apology and will be receiving my money at the first of the month.
Having said all of this, I just want to remind everyone that like the Better Business Bureau, we do have a "big brother" that will take care of us and stay with us when all others will choose to turn their backs on us. We have to take a stand for Jesus, nothing is more important, absolutely NOTHING, not even the love of a spouse, sibling, or parent. Doesn't Jesus promise his disciples that they have a great reward for forsaking all to follow him? He also told them that IF earthly ties were more important that following after him, they were not worthy to receive his blessings too, did he not?
I look around at all of the injustices done in the world, especially the good old USA and know in my heart that God is going to punish us all if we just sit back and let the incident like Judge Moore's case go unaddressed. It wouldn't surprise me if Judge Moore lost his job only to become the next governor of the state for the stand that he took against such apostasy since the people in Alabama are outraged at the injustice. I personally think he would be the best governor they ever had if elected, and I really don't believe that this great man of intregity is troubled in the least about losing his position. If God is for him, and we know he is, he will only be a better person after this testing is over.
Our land was founded on good moral principles by God-fearing men, so, I think we Christians have been NICE long enough. Just how NICE are we when we just sit back and don't even try to warn our families about false prophets and the dangers in compromise? As sure as there is a God in heaven, he is coming to judge this world, and I am thankful for his promise that the church will not have to go through that awful time of tribulation. We have the promise that we will be taken out of here, so, shouldn't we be telling everyone about this GOOD NEWS.
After all, we have the Bible that tells us to "be ANGRY and sin not" so, why do we think that "righteous indignation" is an unholy act when Jesus Christ (sinless) chose to be angry when he drove out the merchants from his Father's temple? Why do we just sit quietly and "feel out" our neighbor before we tell them about Jesus, to see if we have common ground to share instead of going out as God commands and "shaking the bushes" as it were and compel them all to come in and fellowship and repent before it is too late? After all, Jesus didn't come to heal healthy folks, he came as the great physician to HEAL a lost and dying world, so, why are we "afraid" that our jobs are at stake if we take a stand? After all, doesn't the Word say that "perfect love casteth out fear" and also, "if God is for us, then who will stand against us?"
I will say that with each passing day, all one has to do is look around and see more and more prophecy being fulfilled as Jesus gets ready to return WITH his saints to reunite them with their resurrected incorruptible bodies. Doesn't it seem strange too that one prophecy mentions an "increase" in knowledge while another prophecy mentions that the creature will be honored more than the CREATOR?
God forbid that we should infringe on someone's rights, amen? After all, everyone has a right to bust hell wide open, right? Yes, it is our "just" rewards according to the word, but we are to take his gospel and share it with these hellbound heathens that don't mind if that monument is locked up in a back room somewhere as long as they don't have to be reminded that there is a God that will soon, very soon, come to judge them for this horrible act done in the name of "civil" rights, what a joke! Why did these fools not take it a step further, if it is wrong to have this monument on display on the lawn in front of the court house then why is it still on government property at all? Why didn't they take it to the private home of Judge Moore if it indeed violated constitutional law?
On another train of thought about Bible prophecy and the increase in knowledge since the early 1800s, note that nothing changed much for all of this time until the printing press was invented? Wasn't it really invented to mass produce God's word BEFORE any other literature was printed such as EGWs bunk and all the lies from the Mormons and Jehovah's Winesses? I might be wrong in assuming this was the reason for the invention but didn't Gutenberg invent it? I am thinking that the Gutenberg Bible was the first Bible translated from the original Greek and Hebrew text into German before being later translated into the King James Version, but that isn't my point. I just think that it is strange that these false prophets just happened on the scene within just a few short years of one another right after the printing press started producing the Holy Bible? Almost immediately, these people took it upon themselves to "explain" the Bible to many folks who, at that point in time, didn't even know how to read, so, just how easy was it to lure in a bunch of uneducated people who were gullible enough to believe everything they said in the first place. It is hard to TEST a prophet when you can't even read the RULE BOOK, amen? I think that it is strange too that the JWs founder just happened to be an X-SDA and note too that all of these "alternate" gospels each carried their own special little "prophet" that ear-marked them as the "one and only" true church. We won't know until we get to heaven just exactly how much damage has been done by these "so-called" prophets of God, but I thank God for the increase in knowledge that allows us to meet here and exchange what God has shown to us in his word via the World Wide Web.
If anyone is really interested in seeing a list of all of the "increase in knowledge" since the early 1800s, I would suggest that you read some of Hal Lindsey's books such as "The Late Great Planet Earth" for one or maybe Jack Van Impe's book "Israel, The Final Holocaust." I will probably get reprimanded by a few for suggesting that you read books other than the Bible since that seems to be why we are all in such a mess and posting in this forum in the first place, but believe me when I say, these men, though they are mere men with imperfections just like us, I believe with all my heart that these men truly have a desire to get the truth out to warn us before it is too late. They have been given "special insight" into last day prophecies even though I would not dare to suggest that anyone elevate them to the same pedestal as E.G. White seeing as how there is no comparison between them. Yes, it is true that they have made a lot of money with their books but at least they are pointing you to Jesus and to truth instead of apostasy like EGW and these other "so-called" prophets. (I will add this point too, no one will ever have a clear understanding of God's word until they ask the Holy Spirit to indwell their hearts and give them understanding, and this is how we can test a prophet and know that they are false, just by simply asking God for enlightenment, all anyone has to do is call on the Lord, just ask God "is this true?" He will lead you in ALL spiritual truth.) It is all about listening to God and growing in strength as we feed on the word. God even tells us that we have NO need of anyone telling us the plan of salvation IF we have entrusted ourselves into God's ALL SUFFICIENT hands. We can know that we have eternal security by simply trusting the truth, that truth is known as JESUS CHRIST. Do you have him or do you have religion?
Well, I guess I have preached enough for one day. I need to clean up my house since I have been neglecting it all week with the hospital tests and such. It just drains me when I get put to sleep, so, I took the day off when they told me that the plant was working tomorrow. I have got to do dishes and laundry, etc.
God bless,
Janice Lumpkin |
Cindy (Cindy)
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 4:04 pm: | |
Just wondering... about the above comment on Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe, that:
"they have been given 'special insight' into last day prophecies..."
What are these "special insights"? Something that other followers of Christ haven't been given?
grace always,
cindy
ps...(I have not read any of their writings...) |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
I suspect what is often meant by "special insight" are the predicitions that are sometimes made and the the methods that are used to make them:
Jack Van Impe predicts in his book "On the Edge of Eternity" that the year 2001 will "usher in international chaos such as we've never seen in our history." He predicts that in 2001, and the years following, the world will experience "drought, war, malaria, and hunger afflicting entire populations throughout the [African] continent...By the year 2001, there will be global chaos." Islam will become much larger than Christianity. (That would take a sudden growth spurt; Islam is currently followed by About 20% of the world's population vs. 33% for Christianity). A one-world church will emerge; it will be "controlled by demonic hosts." Temple rituals (presumably including ritual animal sacrifice) would resume in Israel. Jack van Impe once predicted that tumultuous events will happen about the year 2001. The Antichrist was to have appeared, and causes a seven year period of worldwide distress called the Tribulation. This will be followed by the Battle of Armageddon and the second coming of Christ. He has since changed his predictions, delaying them by many years into the future. His ministry continues to prosper, in spite of a string of failed prophecies. [source: religoustolerance.org]
Hal Lindsey has also been involved in failed end time predictions and is an advocate of using Equidistant Letter Sequencing (ELS) to decipher the Bible. [Source: Christian Research Institue] |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Jack Van Impe and Hal Lindsey are evangelists who specialize in the study of last day Bible prophecy. That was all I meant by "special insight" since the Bible lists gifts of the spirit as well as fruits of the spirit. I do not have the gift of preaching or teaching and guess that I obviously am not even gifted with good communication skills because I did not mean to convey that they had something that couldn't be received by any of us as a child of God truly seeking knowledge.
Paul gives a better explanation than I, so, let me quote him from the book of Romans, chapter 12:4-8--For as we have many members in one body, and ALL MEMBERS HAVE NOT THE SAME OFFICE: So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. Having then GIFTS differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, [let us prophesy] according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, [let us wait] on [our] ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, [let him do it] with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
If you look at my previous post again, you will see that I was comparing a true gift to a false one by using EGW as a comparison. Some of us just have the ability to open the scriptures up to people better than others do. I will also add to my list with Dr. Van Impe and Hal Lindsey, Charles Stanley, and my very own pastor Dr. J. Howard Mills at Calvary Baptist Church in Bremen, Georgia, as well as Rev. Tony Gordon, and many others than I have had the priviliege to learn from.
If you are interested in Bible prophecy, Jack Van Impe's web site is www.jackvanimpe.com and my church web site is www.mycalvary.net. I also am working on my own web site at www.theLumpkinhome.com and you are welcome to e-mail me anytime you want to discuss a topic one on one. I love to pass along any knowledge that may be of help to any of you.
I hope this post answers your question.
Janice |
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