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Ann L.
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Does anyone know anything about a National Sunday Law? For some reason my husband seems to believe that the SDA is the remnant church because he believes that what they teach is closest to what the bible says. One of the reasons he has this view is because he believes that the SDA teaching concerning last day prophecies is correct. I believe it has something to do with the papacy, the mark of the beast, some impending Sunday law, and the book of Daniel. Can a knowlegable person please shed some light on this issue?
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 12:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello, Ann L.,

You sound too good to be true. If you're for real, then there are many many answers which will be coming your way if you dare to continue on this website.

But if you're not for real, then you'll be wasting your time. You won't be wasting our time, for pharisaical or saddusaical "traps" only sharpen our skills in interpreting Scripture.

First of all: Has your husband been reading anything like the book "National Sunday Law" (Amazing Truth Publications, P.O. Box 68, Thompsonville, IL 62890, 1998) by A. Jan Marcussen?

If so, then all bets are off. Back off. Your husband is dealing with occultism and sophistry at its most deceptive. "What the truth is" has no meaning to a bamboozled, cultified, mystified, eyes-glazed-over person. Only what feeds his addiction has meaning -- until he is confronted by the raw power of Christ.

In addition, you may be endangering yourself just trying to use us and your own intellectual prowess to break through and enlighten such a person.

My advice: Before you "ask us," prayerfully read the book of Mark. It's thrilling to read about how terrified the evil spirits were when they saw Jesus coming. For example, Mark 1:23 NIV: "A man in their synagogue [local church] who was possessed by an evil spirit cried out, 'What do you want with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are -- the Holy One of God!"

Feeling the thrill? There is safety, power, strength, and rest only in Jesus Christ when it comes to the occult. And make no mistake, you are dealing with powers far beyond yourself, even if you profess yourself to be a Christian.

For an example of how professed believers were literally beaten by the powers of the occult, read Acts 19:13-20 NIV:

***********
Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, "In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out." Seven sons of Scceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, "Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" Then the man who had the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. He gave them such a beating that they ran out of the house naked and bleeding.

When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear, and the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. Many of those who believed now came and openly confessed their evil deeds. A number who had praciced sorcery brought their scrolls together and burned them publicly. When they determined the value of the scrolls, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas. In this way the word of the Lord spread widely and grew in power."
***********

What I believe is happening on this website and with the FAF generally is this: The word of the Lord is spreading more and more widely and growing in power. Thus we WILL attract the attention of the forces of evil.

But we must not fear, for we learn from the book of Mark, that the presence of Jesus Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit in our hearts is more than a match for all the forces of evil in the world. For, "the earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof." And, "Be not afraid, for I have overcome the world," Jesus says.

In short, they're afraid of him and they flee from him. If they're lucky he'll take pity on them and send them into a herd of pigs (Matthew 8) which dumb brutes will seek cover by diving into a lake and drowning.

Remember, God is not mocked. And this website is no joke. Now, are you for real?

Jude
Ann L.
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 1:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude,
Yes, I am for real! This is not a 'trap'. I certainly do not take this website for a joke. I do recall seeing my husband with a little book by that title (dont know if it's the same one). I don't quite get what you mean by dealing with the occult, but then of course if I had understood that, I wouldn't be writing. You see, in the first few months after I accepted Christ as my Saviour, I have been going through a "battle" because of the SDA church. It caused me to read practically the whole New Testament. Then, I found out about Ellen G. White and other stuff which caused me to view SDA ism as a cult. Don't have tim now to explain, but the point is, I am for real. I have never read through the book of Daniel, so I am really not familiar with certain prophecies. I just heard about this Sunday Law being in the bible (Daniel?) and like I said, I'm clueless. Are you a former adventist as well? Anyway, I'm serious, and I would be grateful for some replies.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Ann,

Thanks for so prompt a reply. I consider myself an FAFer now, though to my knowledge my (real) name's still on the SDA "books." I'm also a third-generationer, a PK, hold an M.Div. from AU's Theological Seminary and was an employed professional in SDAdom for nearly twenty years.

But now "I would rather be a doorkeeper in the house of my God than dwell in the tents of Adventism." Psalm 84:10 NIV (with apology for changing one word).

What triggered the image of Marcussen's "National Sunday Law" (NSL) book was the reference in your first sentence of your first post:

"Does anyone know anything about a National Sunday Law?"

I've read that little book (94 pages, white and red cover with black type), heard the author speak, and have been on his newsletter mailing list for over a year now.

It is from this experience that I believe the man is dealing in the occult. Here are a few of my many reasons:

1. There is no reference whatsoever to a Sunday law in Scripture.

2. The first Sunday law was not enacted till three centuries after the last book of the Bible was written, in 321 AD, by Emperor Constantine. It wasn't "national" at all, but international, covering the Roman empire of many nations. Moreover, it was a LABOR law to prevent employers from forcing employees to work seven days per week.

3. With zero biblical support, Ellen White wrote in "The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan" that a U.S. "national" Sunday law would constitute "the last act in the drama" ("great controversy") before Christ would come and destroy all those who were trying to kill Sabbath-keepers who were hiding out in the mountains. He would also destroy everyone except Sabbath-keepers. Here is where the occult comes in.

And I think that's enough for now. I await your reaction.

Standing on Scripture alone, Christ alone, and the gospel alone, I am,

Jude the Obscure
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 4:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Ann again,

Just got out my copy of Marcussen's "National Sunday Law" and would like to post a few excerpts. Then YOU can decide whether or not YOU think they add up to cultish and occult teaching. And if you DON'T think so, then YOU tell me how to derive the teaching from Scripture alone. Fair enough? Here goes:

Page 56: "The churches which have Sunday in common will unite in a grand movement so that the world can be converted. Already, the religioius leaders have been getting their church people into politics.... [T]he national Sunday law will be a religious law."

Page 56: "Cold chills went down my spine as, in the middle of the night, on a powerful AM station near Washington D.C., I heard a deep voice. Cold as steel, it proclaimed that the curse of God rests upon us and will not be removed until the nation repents, and turns back to God by keeping Sunday holy."

Page 56: "To worship the first beast, you don't have to join the Catholic church. All you would have to do is follow the mark of its authority instead of the sign of God's authority -- and you would be honoring that power more than God; in His sight -- worshiping it. Atrocities of the dark ages will be repeated!"

Page 57: "Men, women, and children from all walks of life will be fleeing for their lives and hiding int he most desolate areas, or, if caught, cast into jails to await the penalty. The war, strife, and tgerrible calamities of nature will be blamed on them."

Page 57: "As those loyal to God are brought to court for their faith, the issues about God's true Sabbath will spread around the world. The truth of God's fourth commandment will be seen in contract with the counterfeit day which the image of the beast is trying to enforce by law."

Page 57: "Spirits of devils go out to deceive the whole world. Those who make the word of God their guide will not fall for this world-wide hoax."

Page 58: "Every case has been decided for life or death. Then -- the seven last, terrible plagues of Revelation 16 are poured out upon the wicked, and a global conflict takes oplace under the sixth plague.

"No matter which way you look at this thing, a great crisis is stealing upon our world.

"This global conflict will be like nothing you've ever dreamed of before -- your wildest imagination has never pictured it."

[The last item on this page is a picture of a flying saucer (UFO) with transparent walls and a horribly misshapen and disfigured likeness of child's head within it staring vacuously out and an image of Jesus Christ on the Cross within the child's brain as though there as a dream image. The child in the UFO is dropping a hydrogen bomb upon a great city, such as New York, Chicago or Los Angeles. Is this Marcussen's idea of Jesus getting revenge on the world for crucifying him?]

Page 60: "The heaven-defying [national Sunday] law has been passed and God's obedient people [Sabbath-keepers] have been persecuted, mocked, and sentenced to death -- and now -- 'I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth."

Page 60: "Can you imagine sores all over your body!"

Page 60: "Notice, these gnawing, painful sores will afflict only those who have the mark of the beast and worship his image. What will it be like when this happens?"

Page 60: "People by the thousands who have received the 'mark' [of the beast] for the purpose of saving their jobs and comforts of life now find that their comfort is gone!"

Page 60: "God knows that if He gave them a million years more, they wouldn't change. When the plagues begin to fall, you'll know that every case is decided for eternity."

Pages 60: "Not everyone will get these awful sores. Those who so lately have been persecuted and mocked, are now safe. Angels of God protect them."

Page 61: "Though they'll be sentenced to death, God's people will not die. Jesus will interpose to save them. While the wicked are perishing with pestilence and famine, God's people are sheltered in the shadow of his hand."

More later,

Jude
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 5:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann,

More excerpts from Marcussen's "National Sunday Law" for you to demonstrate their veracity from Scripture alone. Also, please notice the unloving, "Because you hurt us Sabbath-keepers, Jesus is gong to torture and kill you!" attitude of this author.

At this point, two definitions: "the beast" and "the image to the beast."

1. The beast. According to Jan Marcussen (deriving from EGW and all orthodox SDA doctrine), "The first beast is the Papacy" (page 51).

2. The image to the beast. According to the above criteria, "The image of the beast is a religious power just like the beast in our country teaching many of the same false teachings -- the majority of the Protestant world. To say it plainly, Revelation 13 is revealing to us the astonishing fact that Protestant America will cause all to worship the Papacy and receive its 'mark' by passing a national Sunday law, and that all who do not go along with it will suffer the consequences!" (page 51).

Now, I would ask you, Does the driving spirit behind this book seem loving and Christlike? Or vengeful and Satanic?

Page 61: "Have you ever seen the blood of a dead man? It putrefies and coagulates into a jelly mass. Those who have hated God's people [SDAs] have tried to shed their blood. Now, picture them in the pain of their feverish boils turning on their faucets for some relief, and out comes the oozing 'blood of a dead man.'"

Page 61: "Horrible pain is now experienced by the wicked [Sunday-keepers]. The combination of scorching heat and raw sores is excruciating."

Page 61: "Many [Sunday-keepers] who have worked miracles and done wonderful works, have trampled on God's Sabbath and and persecuted those who honored it."

Page 62: "Air-conditioners will not be able to cope with the intense heat. The building will be like ovens. for the wicked [Sunday-keepers], there'll be no relief anywhere."

Page 62: "The plague is perfectly suited to the sin of the people. They have honored the 'day of the sun' according to the traditions of men -- and now God gives them sun!"

Page 62: "While the wicked [Sunday-keepers] are dying from the pestilence, angels will shield God's faithful people [Sabbath-keepers] and supply their wants."

Page 62: "While the disobedient are shrieking inpain, reeking with sweat, and their parched throats are raw for thirst, God's promise to His people is: 'The Lord is thy keeper: the Lord is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.' Psalms 121:5,6.

Hold on tight. More to come.

Jude
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ann and all interested others:

Continuing with Jan Marcussen's completely orthodox SDA view of what Jesus Christ does to Sunday-keepers and how seventh-day Sabbath-keepers are spared:

Page 62: "In choosing to honor the beast and receive his 'mark' [Sunday-keeping] instead of honoring God and His 'seal' [seventh-day Sabbath-keeping], the people have chosen darkness [Sunday]. Now again, God gives them what they've chosen."

Page 63: "God's people are still hiding out. They've weeks ago lost their jobs, homes, and fled for their lives before insane men urged on by the religious leaders [Protestant and Catholic clergy] and evil angels. They've given up all for Christ. They've seen the wickeed [Sunday-keepers] perishing while angels of God provided food for them [seventh-day Sabbath-keepers]."

Page 63: "By the fifth plague ['supernatural darkness'], the whole wicked [Sunday-keeping] world is really angry. They've decided that those who honor God's [seventh-day] Sabbath of the Bible are the cause of the horrible convulsions of nature and they determine to blot them from the earth!"

Page 64: "The date is set [for Sunday-keepers to kill seventh-day Sabbath-keepers]. When the clock strikes midnight on a certain day, God's obedient [Sabbath-keeping] people will be sentenced to death!"

Page 64: "This is the global conflict. This is the battle of Armageddon. It's earth's final battle between good [seventh-day Sabbath-keepers] and evil [Sunday-keepers]. All have taken sides. The wicked are in the majority and seemingly have a great advantage."

Page 64: "This is a world-wide battle. The national Sunday law of the U.S. has spread top all the nations of the world. The Universal law seeks to, in one day, strike a decisive blow that will wipe the hated sect [the Seventh-day Adventist church] from the face of the earth."

Pages 64-65: "When the great corrupt, Christian coalition of the world comes to the place where it causes ... the leaders ... to decree that those who will not go along with the Sunday law should be pout to death, it brings the world to the place of sealing its own doom."

Page 65: "The people of God [SDAs], some still in prison, some hidden in forests and mountains -- still plead for God's protection, while companies of armed [Protestant and Catholic] men, hurried on by evil angels, are preparing to execute the death sentence. It's now -- in the darkest hour, that the God of Israel will interpose to deliver His faithful people [because they have kept the Sabbath].

Page 65: The date has been set to strike one stunning blow that will wipe the hated sect from the face of the earth. At midnight the death decree goes into effect. At midnight -- the mighty God of heaven will interpose to save His people."

[Reference inserted at this point is to E.G. White, "Cosmic Conflict, (Washington, DC: R&H, 1982), p. 557. This is yet another version of EGW's "Great Controversy."]

Page 65: "BABYLON THE GREAT -- THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS has caused all nations to drink of the wine of her mixture of Christian and sun-worshiping practices. Now she drinks of the wine of the wrath of God."

["Babylon" is defined on pages 20-21 as the Roman Catholic Church.]

Page 65: "Satan's attempt to enforce the death decree against God's people is the final climax in his king of swindles. God steps in to save His people. And what a deliverance!"

More next post,

Jude
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ann and others again,

The whole point of this exercise in SDA orthodoxy is to ask the ultimate question all who value the record of the Jesus Christ event in the Scripture to ask:

Where does this come from? If it does not come from Scripture, then where? EGW? If EGW, then where did she get it? From Scripture? If not, then where? Visions? Dreams? Nothing wrong with visions and dreams! But if her visions and dreams do not accord with Scripture, then are they from God? And if not, then ..... ?

If you maintain that this "heart and soul" of SDA most orthodox doctrine comes from God, then please demonstrate its source in Scripture alone! That is YOUR challenge, Ann, or anyone else whose interested from the GC President on down.

And so, on to the grand climax of SDA orthodoxy as summed up in the book "National Sunday Law" by SDA ordained-and-practicing minister Pastor Jan Marcussen.

Page 65: Now she [the Roman Catholic Church, the Protestant world, and all others except Seventh-day Adventists] drinks of the wine of the wrath of God."

Pages 65-66: "Everything in nature goes haywire. The mountains shake like reeds in the wind. The wicked [all non-Seventh-day Adventists] are paralized with abject terror and look with amazement on the scene, while the obedient [seventh-day Sabbath-keeping Seventh-day Adventists] watch with solemn joy at the signs of their deliverance. Ragged rocks are hurled in every direction. The sea is lashed into fury. The earth heaves and swells. Its surface is breaking apart. Mountain chains sink. Islands disappear Wicked cities that have beomce like Sodom are swallowed up by tidal waves. Great hailstones, each 'about the weight of a talent' are wreaking havoc. A talent is about 63 pounds. You can see that these, like cannon balls, will beat the wicked cities to a pulp."

Page 66: "Splinded mansions erected by the rich with money embezzled from the poor are dashed to pieces before their eyes. Prison walls tumble down, and God's humble people, who have been held in bondage for their faith [seventh-day Sabbath-keeping] are set free."

Page 66: "It is impossible to describe the horror and despair of those who have trampled on God's requirements [the "law" that Christ nailed to the cross]. The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down, have a new conception of what is truth. Too late, they see the true nature of the counterfeit sabbath [Sunday] that the Roman church has brought in and the shaky foundation they've been building on. Many now see that they're lost. They've chosen the easy, popular way -- and have received the mark of the beast."

Page 47: "Sunday worship is the 'mark of the beast!'"

Page 66: "The global conflict has prepared the way for the coming of Christ and His mighty host of angels during the last of the plagues."

Page 66: "There appears in the sky a cloud which betokens the coming of the 'King of Kings and Lord of Lords.'

Page 67: "The jokes have stopped. Cursing, lying, lips are now silent. In the middle of their terror the wicked [Sunday worshipers] hear the voices of God's people joyfully exclaiming: 'Lo, this is our God.'"

That's the end of the narrative part of Marcussen's book. He goes on for a two more pages to the end of the book with exhortations such as these:

Page 68: "You've learned some of Satan's tactics and how he will trick the world into accepting his greatest hoax. You've learned how to escape receiving the mark of the beast [Sunday worship]."

Page 68: "[The call to come out of the Roman Catholic church and all Protestant churches] is God's last call to all born-again believers to separate themselves from organizations [local Protestant and Catholic churches], no matter how friendly and kind the members may be, which are not obeying Jesus fully and keeping all of God's commandments."

Page 68-69: "Very soon, all will have made their choice for the 'seal of God' [Saturday worship] or the "mark of the beast" [Sunday worship]. It's not just a matter of two days, it's a matter of worship, of loyalty -- either to God, or to beast [Catholic] power."

Page 69: "Now ... now, when 'the hour of His [pre-advent, investigative] judgment [beginning October 22, 1844] is come' ... before our probation is closed forever, before every case is decided for life or death -- even now, He is inviting us to surrender all to Him and have life and peace. Soon it will be too late."

Page 69: "I choose ... to follow Him all the way, keep all of His commandments, including His seventh-day Sabbath, and receive the 'seal of the living God' [Saturday worship].' How about you?"

Page 70: "If you would like to have your own personal copy of this most intriguing book, fill out the little order form on the next page. We will rush it to you immediately."

Page 71: 1998 price $1.65 per copy. "Make checks payable to 'Amazing Truth Publications.'"

At a meeting I attended in the early spring of 1999 in a wooden frame SDA church in Fontana, California, Elder Marcussen announced that nearly 15 million copies had been printed. At $1.65 per copy [neglecting discounts for mass purchases], the gross income for that many copies would be $24,750,000.00 going directly into the Amazing Truth Publications cash register in Thompsonville, Illinois. And at the rate the book had been selling -- 2 million copies per year -- the total gross as of this writing should have well exceeded the $25 million mark.

All right, it's your call: Scriptural or not?

Please respond with your opinion as soon as you can.

Yours in the gospel alone, Christ alone, and faith alone,

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2000 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann,

Welcome to a wonderful safe place. Jude's been "gone" for a couple weeks but it doesn't seem like he lost any of his pah-zazz. You've got him on a roll. I'm sure others will join in too. Thanks for stopping by.

Maryann
Bruce H
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann

I will put you on our prayer list.
First of all it is not an accident that you have
found this sight if you are a young Christian.

My advise to you is to get into the Word to know
your Lord and savior to know who He is and in this
way you will be abel to tell an idol from the real
God. We will be glad to answere your questions.

By the way I would pray for your husband and ask
for the lords help.

Bruce Heinrich

By the way if you E-mail your address to Richard
and Colleen I will send you some information that
might help but do not give it out on this free
forum. Another way you can get to us is call
877-EGW-MYTH and give your phone number and I will
contact you a tell you what we have.

Yours in Christ
Ann L.
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jude,
You DID warn me that "many many answers" would be coming my way! Whew, that's a lot to chew on! Doesn't this book have ANY scripture references? Is this meant to be 'their' interpretation of Revelations? Sounds more like horror fiction to me! Reading your excerpts, especially since no scripture references were made, of course I'll say that this book is definitely not scriptural! It sounds more like a scare tactic to lead people into the seventh day adventist church, which is what I've noticed thus far. The 'church' and Ellen G. White get edified, not Jesus Christ and the gospel. It's all about the 'church' and the 'prophet'!

If according the 'them' we are going to be judged by the 10 commandments, then why is it that only 'them' and not also other sabbath keeping churches will not receive the mark of the beast?!

Speaking of the ten commandments, I think the reason why I'm a little unsure about this Sunday law business being a true prophecy is because of the current events. Things like certain states developing laws to post the ten commandments in schools (which says "remember the seventh-day") and talks about the President negotiating to make Sunday an official day of rest.

I'll be back later.
Timo K.
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 4:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everybody,
The worst thing that possible could happen to SDA:s is a "National Sunday Law". Can you imagine how proud the Church would get if that really happened? SDA people would isolate even more from Christian community and reject the "Invisible Church" almost totally.

Even now, when there seems to be no sighns of NSL, there exists lots of pride about that "law". Sunday laws should go together with IJ to the "lake of fire" where it never would rise again.

timo,
Steve Pitcher
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2000 - 7:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timo and Others,

Yes, the SDA church would be proud if a Sunday Law was passed. BUT, the SDA church would probably not have a problem if a Saturday Law was passed. If a human government kept us adhering to the 4th commandment, many in SDAism would say "Praise the Lord" without realizing their own horrors would be visited upon the Innocents.

To Ann: If you're familiar with the government standoff at Waco, Texas, then you can see where the belief in a National Sunday Law leads. If your husband isn't careful, he'll eventually be thinking of David Koresh (aka: Vernon Howell) as worthy of sainthood.

Realize that almost all (I think 99% is a good estimate) of those involved in the Branch Davidian movement were from Seventh-day Adventism and felt the same anti-Government horror that is put forth in Marcussen's book.

A day is not worth dying for.

Steve
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 12:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Ann! Welcome! I will pray for you and for your husband, too. Bruce and Jude are right: you need prayer to deal with him, and he needs our prayers that he will be able to hear God's Spirit. Jude is right, there's a demonic element in the Sunday Law teachings and all the rest of Adventist eschatology.

A friend recently sent me a booklet called Encounter with Darkness by John A. MacMillan. He was a Missionary Alliance preacher and a missionary to China. He died in 1956. In this book he addresses, among other things, modern-day cults. Without naming them he talks about their "cult literature." He says these cults all have some form of prophet or teacher who had demonic siezures or visions early in their ministries. They taught new doctrines which they learned in their visions, and people who adopted their teachings gradually abandoned orthodox Christianity.

MacMillan says that the Bible contains the poer of the Holy Spirit. When people read it, their lives are changed. Cult literature, he says, has in it the power of demons, and when people read it, they lose their ability to understand Biblical truth. These cult teachings he calls the "doctrines of demons".

MacMillan also says that the only safeguard against these doctrines of demons (Paul specifically warns us against "doctrines of demons") is an absolute belief in the Bible as the inerrant Word of God.

What a great gift we have in the BibleóGod's word to us, powerful and livingóand it changes us! I praise God for revealing the truth of his Word to me!

Colleen
Ann L.
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 7:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bruce and Colleen:
I thank you all for your prayers. Sometimes we (I) try to take things into our own hands, when we feel like things aren't going quite the way we want them to. Kinda like what Sarai did when God promised Abraham that he would have an heir that will come from his own body (Gen 15-16). We don't realize that God sets "His" appointed time. All we have to do is put our faith and trust in Him, and no matter how impossible the situation may seem, we have to pray and trust that God will answer our prayers. When we try to intervene, we create an even bigger mess than if we had waited on God. I prayed earnestly that God would save my husband, then when he told me he was going to be baptized in the SDA I was upset, because it wasn't the way I wanted him to be saved. After a few days I remembered that I had prayed for God to save him, so I had to fall down on my knees and thank God! God will provide in "His" appointed time. Right now I need the faith to believe that.

Isn't this Sunday law thing also connected with the book of Daniel? Cause I know that one strategy that SDA's have is to quote verses (NUMEROUS) to support their doctrines and then tell you to go home and check it in the bible for yourself. Now mind you, most of the verses are taken out of context or twisted or something, but an unknowlegable person will end us interpreting those texts the way that SDA's interpret them. I know because I'm speaking from experience! I actually heard an SDA pastor use the bible to prove that Abraham kept the sabbath! He told the congregation that Adam and Eve, Abraham and a host of others were SDA's! Disregarding the fact that there were visitors in the congregation, he said that WHATEVER other church you choose to go to, as long as it is not SDA, you are following the devil! Now if THEY say that it's the ten commandments that we are going to be judged by, then what about the other sabbath-keeping churches? I just don't get it??!! Now if you ask an SDA they will tell you that believers from all denominations are going to heaven. If SDA's will have fellowship with other denominations in heaven, then why do they disfellowship with them here on earth? You read it all over the New Testament, LOVE your neighbor, live peacefully with ALL men, that's what the Gospel is all about, LOVE. Do they read the same bible that I do??!! Hello??!!

I'm really glad I found this forum. Bruce, like you said it's no mistake that I'm here. Actually, the other day I registered for the Adventist online forum, but for whatever reason I never received a password, so I was unable to post anything! Now I don't know if they "screen" you before they let you on, or if God had His hand in it. But I probably wouldn't have found this forum if I was able to post on that one.

Needless to say, it's good to be here!
Ann L.
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 8:50 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Timo and Steve,
Your posts really got me thinking! SDA's believe that this law is going to be enacted soon, at least in the US. I know of at least one site that was set up for the purpose of monitoring this law. I think it's www.sundaylaw.com. They monitor current events, like certain states are looking into posting the ten commandments in schools and other public places. Now we all know that the commandments say remember the "seventh-day" to keep it holy. So the whole issue is that the version of the commandments that will be posted will most likely be changed to uplift Sunday instead of the seventh day. And the other issue is that since "other" Christians believe that "God's moral law" was nailed to the cross, then why is it that all of a sudden they want to bring it back?

Now the part about killing people who do not worship on Sunday (or worship on Saturday) I just do not see that, but SDA's seem to think that it will eventually come to that. I mean there are also Jews and other sabbatarians who keep Saturday as their holy day. Yet SDA's think that they would be the only group of people to be persecuted?? There are other religions and atheists who most likely WILL NOT worship on Sunday, so I just do not grasp the whole concept.

I believe that the reason why this law is so real in the mind of SDA's is because they see certain prophecies of Ellen G. White, coming to pass now. And as Timo said, if some sort of Sunday legislation is passed, that will make SDA's even more proud and confident that they are the chosen church. Is it that they are so looking forward to being persecuted? I've heard about this Branch Davidian thing (who branched off from SDA's) but I'm not familiar with the issues leading up to the fire. The SDA church basically branched off from the Millerites, who believed that Christ was returning in 1844. When that didn't happen, according to what I understand, many people committed suicide. Now I do not even want to imagine the reactions to a Sunday law being passed.

Please visit www.sundaylaw.com and give me your comments on this post.
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 9:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann,

Go to ratzlaf.com and choose weblinks. You'll see Dirk Andersons site. In that you will find a feature book called, "Sunday Law: Fact or Fiction." I think you will enjoy the logic of it. I have to listen every day to how the "world events are coming together" and that the "National Sunday Law" is essentially already in effect world wide. Let me know what you think.

Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 6:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Ann,

You asked, "Doesn't this book ["National Sunday Law" (NSL)] have ANY scripture references?"

Sure, plenty, but.....

Surprise! His conclusions are so erroroneous and so far removed from what Scripture is actually saying that his whole exercise would be comical if it weren't so tragic. He's evidently banking on the idea that most of his readers are so gullible and have such "itching ears" for what he's telling them that they will have neither the drive nor the inclination to "check it out" for themselves.

For example, NSL page 2:

"It's no surprise that the greatest nation on earth should be mentioned in prophecy. What John [the Revelator] sees portends events shaping up in the United States that most definitely will affect you!

"Watch closely now as the scene unfolds.

"'And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.' Revelation 13:11. A 'beast' in prophecy represents a 'kingdom.' Daniel 7:23."

NSL ERROR #1: With no biblical justification whatsoever in sight, Marcussen just flatly states that "a 'beast' in prophecy represents a 'kingdom'."

But the scriptural "proof" he quotes doesn't say that. Daniel 7:23 says, "The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom." The beast=kingdom equation applies specifically to this one dream of Daniel's, not to every dream every prophet ever had! To say that every time the word "beast" appears in biblical prophecy it ALWAYS means "kingdom" is to do violence to Scripture.

In fact, there are many references to beasts in prophecy that do not refer to kingdoms. For instance, in Isaiah's prophecy of "the ransomed of the Lord" returning to their kingdom, he writes, "No lion will be there, nor will any ferocious beast get up on it." Isaiah 35:9 NIV. Isaiah's prophetic "beast" doesn't represent a "kingdom" in this text, but rather a "safety danger." In other words, the redeemed land will be a safe land.

NSL ERROR #2. Marcussen writes (page 2), "When a beast comes up out of the 'sea,' it is represented in prophecy as rising amid many 'peoples and multitudes,' (a highly populated area). Revelation 17:15."

But let's look at Rev. 17:15 NIV: "Then the angel said to me, 'The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.'"

First of all, Marcussen changed the image from "sea" to "waters" without biblical justification. But in Scripture "sea" cannot just automatically be assumed to be identical to "waters."

For example, the "sea" in the earthly temple (1 Kings 7:23-25, 2 Kings 16:17, 2 Chronicles 4:2,4,15,39, Jeremiah 27:19) was a BASIN. And if it was a BASIN in the earthly temple it would also be a BASIN in the heavenly temple alluded to in Revelation 11:19, 14:15,17, 15:5-6,8, 16:1,17.

Second, the fact that "waters" refers to "peoples and multitudes" in ONE prophecy does not mean that it refers to "peoples and multitudes" -- much less "a highly populated area" -- in ALL prophecy.

And in fact the term "waters" DOES NOT always refer to "peoples and multitudes" in prophecy. In Amos 5:24 -- "let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream" -- for example, "waters" represents the life-sustaining nature of God's judgments and God's righteousness in contrast to that of sinful human beings.


NSL ERROR #3. This one is a lollapaloosa! Marcussen writes: "To come out of the 'earth' is just the opposite. So here we have a nation that is springing up out of a wilderness area. Instead of overthrowing vast and well-trained armies from the dense populations of the old world, this nation would be an area 'discoverd.' In the eyes of the 'known world,' it would be new territory. Differing from the often blood-soaked nations of Elurope, it would spring up quietly, peacefully, 'like a lamb.'

"Can you guess what nation of the 'new world' arose into power, giving promise of strength and greatness, that would fit this description?

"Sure! The United States."

First of all, Marcussen has failed to establish biblically that "waters" are "a highly populated area," so how can he -- again with no scriptural support whatsover -- conclude that therefore, "To come out of the 'earth' is just the opposite"?

Second, his bald assertion -- "So here we have a nation that is springing up out of a wilderness area" -- has zero basis in either Scripture or in history.

As far as scriptural evidence is concerned, he cites no reference at all, period. Feel free to trash his interpretation.

As far as historical evidence is concerned, the America discovered by Columbus was by no means unpopulated, but filled with Indian tribes from sea to shining sea and from the far northern Alutian tribes to the tribes at the foot of South America.

Furthermore, it boggles the mind how Marcussen could keep a straight face while maintaining -- especially with zero scriptural evidence in his briefcase -- that, "Differing from the often blood-soaked nations of Europe, it would spring up quietly, peacefully, 'like a lamb.'

Better not bury Marcussen's heart at Wounded Knee! Better not let the descendents of Chief Red Cloud and Chief Sitting Bull and Chief Seattle and Chief Joseph in on Marcussen's dirty little secret.

Can you imagine how the gentle John the Revelator -- not to mention Jesus Christ himself -- would feel about this blatant cover-up of the massacres? The near depopulation of vast areas of Native American populations due to "white man's' diseases? The "death march" of Native Americans from the east coast to the Oklahoma Territory, only then to be driven out of nearly all of even that when it became a State?

And to say nothing of the Revolutionary War? The Spanish-American War? The French-and-Indian War? The Alamo?

The Civil War? Nope, no "blood-soaked nation" there! Not a drop! Whew!

And so, dear Ann L., and all the rest of my friends out there in Cyberville, I think I've given you a fair example of the pile of rubbish that passes for Marcussen's claim for scriptural support!

If you think you can prove otherwise, be my guest! I'd love to see you show how he does ANYTHING OTHER than mistreat and abuse the Holy Bible!

Which, in case you hadn't noticed, was written for Native Americans JUST AS MUCH as it was written for you and me!

For his prejudice, his chip-on-the-shoulder mentality, his bloodlust for "vengeance not of the Lord" -- at least not the Lord I worship -- comes through all too clearly in this petulant little book.

NSL only makes you wonder what kind of mentality it appeals to in its 15+ million readers, some percentage of whom will be baptized into or re-baptized back into the SDA church and start paying tithe and giving offerings.

For the few examples I cited of Marcussen's crimes against sober and prayerful biblical interpretation is repeated on nearly every page. Read it for yourself, but when you do, look up every text, demand scriptural evidence where none exists, and trust NOTHING that this man says.

Remaining true,

Jude
Julia
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! I haven't read that book for years but I sure fell for it when I did. I only wish I could have realized how wrong it was back then. Do you think that web sites like this can make any difference in the SDA church. It seems to me that it is so much easier now to get "the rest of story".
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2000 - 9:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Julia,

I think in some ways at least that the Internet is the thing Adventist and Adventist-associated people have been needing. Adventism historically has effectively "sewn up" all other sources of information about it, except for certain "underground" publications such as VERDICT, LIMBOLINE, ADVENTIST CURRENTS. But most of these have faded or otherwise failed.

Also the quasi-independent journals, first SPECTRUM and inmore recent years ADVENTIST TODAY. However, in my opinion, both of these publications have "sold out." SPECTRUM long ago. AT only since the current editor, John McLarty, took over. It's published from the premises of La Sierra University, which effectively shelters them under the church's umbrella.

I think AT crossed the "River of No Return" when as newly installed AT editor, John published the article, "WHY I LIKE THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT" (AT, Sept./Oct. 1998, p. 20-22).

In my opinion the article is utterly without spiritually redeeming merit. Here's the subtitle, or "deck," as journalists call it:

"SO WHY DO I STILL BELIEVE IN THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT? TWO REASONS: I BELIEVE IT'S TRUE, AND I'VE LEARNED TO LIKE IT."

Whether he likes it or not is a moot point, since everybody has their likes and dislikes. And if somebody has "learned to like" bashing one's own face in with a brick, well, who am I to disagree?

And, by the way, I think that, if anything, bashing one's own face in with a brick is probably less self-destructive and less masochistic than the investigative judgment teaching (IJ).

But .... as the old saying goes, "There's just no accounting for personal taste."

The other point is a little more complicated: McClarty believes IJ is "true."

According to his article he has known IJ "backwards and forwards" since he was a child. So what does he say it is? This:

THE INVESTIGATIVE JUDGMENT: "God began judging the dead in 1844. When he finished judging the dead he would start in on the living. No one knew when that transition wold occur, though it was always believed to be still future. Once a person was dealth with in the judgment, their eternal destiny was irrevocably fixed. Those already dead would make it through the judgment if the general trend of their life was in the directdion of Christ. But if you were alive when you were judged, a single, unforsaken sin would damn you."

McClarty believes IJ is true, but, like Marcusen in his "National Sunday Law," he offers scant biblical support for it. Only two references:

1. Daniel 8:14. McClarty doesn't even quote this text, which reads (NIV), "He [a holy one] said to me [Daniel], 'It will take 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the sanctuary will be reconsecrated."

All he says about it is, "When I speak of the investigative judgment, I am not referring to the chronology [time-line] based on Daniel 8:14."

He just tosses it! The core text of the IJ doctrine for 150 years! The text which formed the heart-and-soul of the "case against Des Ford" that ended in his being defrocked and dismissed from church employment, which has been called "economic burning at the stake."

All right, so much for the doctrine's core text: McClarty doesn't know WHEN Jesus stepped from the outer to the inner court of the sanctuary in heaven.

Then what does he even mean by IJ? This:

"By 'investigative judgment' I mean a process in heaven before the return of Jesus during which God, in the presence of myriads of witnesses, makes the final decision about individuals' eternal destiny. Other writers have used the term 'pre-Advent judgment [PAJ].'"

But zero scriptural support. Which leaves us with this question: If he doesen't know when it began, then why not take the biblical evidence at face value and just ADMIT THAT IT BEGAN AT THE CROSS?

Take cover, John, because the word of God is a sharp two-edged sword, and you're going to feel it right now:

Hebrews 10:12-14 NIV: "But when this priest [Jesus Christ, a priest not after the order of the Levitical high priest, but after the more ancient order of Melchizedek] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy."

The same text makes it inescapably clear when it ended: when "he sat down at the right hand of God."

This is not really difficult to understand: the IJ or PAJ had a beginning and an end. And so it's over now, and McClarty offers no texts to demonstrate that it continues.

The only other scriptural evidence McLarty offers is Revelation 20:4, which, again, he fails to quote. Here it is (NIV): "I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge."

Now, since this text is clearly contexted within the whole chapter framwork of the "thousand years" (millennium, complete with Satan's doom), it becomes rather obvious that it is referring to the final judgment and not to any sort of pre-judgment judgment sandwiched in between the cross and the Second Coming.

McClarty does refer to Revelation 20, but not as context: "Another distinct judgment is the Great White Throne Judgment of Revelation 20 in which the lost are confronted with the recrod of their evil." But, again, he offers zero scriptural support for his position.

Any idea that the so-called "Great White Throne Judgment" could be anything other than just another aspect of the final judgment or harvest is just ludicrous.

See for yourself (Revelation 20:11-15 NIV): "Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

And so McClarty is left with no texts at all. To his credit he doesn't rely on Ellen G. White, and in fact mentions neither her nor anything she said or wrote anywhere in this article.

Thus, for evidentiary support, McClarty is left with his denominational traditions and his own personal opinions. That's it. Here are two of them:

MCLARTY'S UNAIDED PERSONAL OPINION #1. "I believe the doctrine of the investigative judgment is one of the premier Christian arguments for the dignity and significance of human intellectual endeavor."

Sound to you like he's trying to rebuild the Tower of Babel? Does to me -- humanistic (certainly not Christian!) arguments for the excellence of "human intellectual endeavor" indeed!

MCLARTY'S UNAIDED PERSONAL OPINION #2. "The [investigative] judgment offers a rational basis for belief that the saving work of Jesus Christ can apply to people other than those who have an explicit Christian faith."

Whoa! I'd love to hear what response St. Paul would if he could read this one! A wholly human intellectual construct is going to offer "a rational basis" for saving people "OTHER THAN THOSE WHO HAVE AN EXPLICIT CHRISTIAN FAITH."

You read it here, friends! And I don't think that the insertion of the word "explicit" is going to rescue so blatant example of "another gospel."

So our philosophy will save us! And this is what the IJ or PAJ has come down to? And I do mean DOWN.

And thus the Internet has let me witness to you it ways that would have been impossible only a few short years ago. And that brings me back to St. Julia:

Yes, Julia, you said it first and you said it very well. So well, that I'd like to close with a reprise of your most excellent post:

"Wow! I haven't read that book [NSL} for years but I sure fell for it when I did. I only wish I could have realized how wrong it was back then. Do you think that web sites like this can make any difference in the SDA church. It seems to me that it is so much easier now to get 'the rest of story'."

Thanking God for giving us the Internet,

Jude

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