| Author |
Message |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:12 am: |     |
Good morning Chyna,
In your above post you said It is a more complex issues that doesn't directly affect one's salvation. just as the interpretation of Revelations. I'm not going to spring an indepth conversation about pre-trib mid-trib, post trib with a new believer ... As I said before there is validity to both sides of the argument.
To me the issue of predestination does directly affect one's salvation. First because there is the issue of whether one is elect or not. Secondly the only way a person can rest assured that they are an elect is by examining the behavior of themselves which turns them right back to works rather their eyes upon Jesus. Third I sincerely believe this doctrine brings great dishonor to GOD. With regards to the other doctrines they are not directly linked to salvation or God's character and I have complete comfort in disagreement. But due to the serious implications of this one I can not.
With regards to God loved Jacob, hated Esau, God uses one vessel for honorable use, the other not. Yes he did. But was this predestined or was it due to the choices they made in their lives? In the context of Old Covenant law God would hate Esau, but did Esau receive New Covenant Grace? Does the Bible record Esau's last moments of life which would ultimately tell us what was his fate? Many questions are left unanswered for me to have a hasty conclusion.
On you commentYou can't just pick and choose which attributes of God you like, and dislike. God is Holiness, and He is Just and I believe that however predestination is written out then it is both Holy and Just, coexisting with God's graciousness and God's mercy.Qualities such as like and dislike, love and hate are qualities of the heart. I CHOOSE GOD. BUT I could not give my heart to GOD or call him JUST if predestination were true. Living according to his law and loving him are entirely different things.
You quoteRomans 8:28-30
28 We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn within a large family. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified. and I would like to rescue this text from the predestinist. Remember that he foreknew each and everyone of us. Therefore he predestined each and every one of us for salvation. To use this text as a "proof text" for predestiny would imply that God foreknew some of us and not others. That is not consistent with God knowing the beginning to the end and knowing all. In addition one has to come to this text with the assumption that God has not given us free will (true free will, not the mechanical kind Calvinism speaks of) Personally for myself I take the beautiful analogy of Song of Solomon. When someone Loves another with the total abandon as in that book it is due to a choice not due to being preprogrammed. And that is the kind of LOVE I EMBRACE with my GOD.
I have not yet studied all of the texts you quoted, I will be doing it eventually. I will be honest that as of yet, I can not make an intelligent discussion on them with you. But when I have studied them, I will get back to this line.
Chyna, I have tremendous respect for you and for your courageous journey. I hope that you do not see my discussion as a personal attack as I wish only to be friends.
Valerie |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:13 am: | |
Jay, I have not met you yet. Hello. And thank you for your kind and level headed post. Have a great day. I hope to hear more from you. Valerie |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:27 am: | |
Bill, I enjoyed your post! :-)) Maybe I have that crazy type "humor, too... I really didn't take that comment of yours in a mean-sprited way... Valerie, I'm sorry you felt that. :-(( I guess we all come from such varied upbringings, etc...communication is a hard thing. :-))
Hope all of you here have a great day in the Lord!!
And I hope the earth stays quake-free up here in the Northwest!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Chuckiej
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:34 am: | |
Well, Bill and GA are gone, but I'd like to address something Bill said re: church history. While it is instructive, my belief in "free will dogma" has nothing to do with what I was taught. I was raised a 4th generation SDA, and I never bought the prophethood of EGW, alcohol is a sin, jewelry is idolatry. It is arrogant to assert that people who disagree with you are bound to some johnny-come-lately theology and couldn't have come to their conclusions otherwise. We have all presented scriptural arguments for rejecting "electionism" only a small fraction of which have been addressed. It makes me wonder who is really following scripture and who is adhering to dogma. |
Kelly
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:53 am: | |
I must say parts of this discussion have been brutal! I have been appalled, reading some of Grace Ambassadors and Bill Twisses post; I would not accept your opinion of the matter based strictly upon delivery.
You have hammered away and had no mercy at all on a person that is struggling in her relationship with Christ because of what you write. You have literally pushed someone away from their spiritual relationship and then refer to yourselves as more godly. One of you went so far as to attack the forum saying it was nothing but a "support group", but isn't that what all organized study is spiritual support.
What would you be doing Valerie if others had not reached out to you in your distress?
If one of you gentleman had been my first contact on this site I would have never returned and grabbed hold of Adventism with both hands. Where is your impersonal love and long suffering? One of you also seemed proud to call himself arrogant, do you not know that this is one of the six sins listed in Prov. that are detestable to God?
I have not posted in any of the arguments; frankly I am not scripturally versed in this subject enough to do so. But as an a spectator I have seen Valerie trampled over and then criticized because she cried out, because she displayed an emotion. I agree that spiritually is not based upon any emotion but you most certainly can have an emotional reaction to a spiritual concept.
Others have criticized because this discussion was taking place under the "heresies that you have been taught in the church". This seems very appropriate to me for it to be here. It's just like what you learn in Adventism. Anyone who has an opposing view is not tolerated and is considered to be a second rate Christian if they are indeed Christian at all.
In general the opposing arguments to predestination have been questions as to how does this (a Biblical fact) fit the double predestination theory. Much like Adventism the response has bee dependent on changing the meaning of words and manipulation of scripture. "This story here means this and that story which seems to say this really means the opposite".
One thing I have learned very clearly from studying the Bible is: there are passage of scripture that are very clear. And there are passages of scripture that are not. But everything fits together without any discrepancy or contradiction. So, on that basis, then I must conclude that the clear statements are truth and the unclear statements, when understood in context, will agree with the clear ones.
I have followed this discussion and have read each scripture that was presented as "evidence". I read THE scripture. I have read the entire chapter it was in and the chapter before and after that chapter.
I have come to two conclusions: 1. The person with the best debating skills and with the most evidence is not necessarily the person who represents the truth. The best debator can win the debate on false information simply because they are the most clever in presentation. This award goes to Grace Ambassador and Bill Twisse!!! Congratulations!!
Secondly, its supposed to be easy enough for a child to understand it. Scripture is supposed to agree with scripture. On this basis the award goes to those who have maintained that the foreknowledge of God and the freewill of man co-exist by God's command. Congratulations!!!
These are the decisions made my an observer based upon the "evidence" supplied with disregard to delivery. I must say I was most impressed by the dissection of the word ALL. However, when I took my own Lexicon and allowed scripture to interpret scripture the conclusions were not the same.
We all err when we allow a human to interpret scripture for us. To allow John Calvin to be your interpreter is no different than the Adventist allowing EGW to interpret theirs.
Just a note in closing: I will not respond to any personal attacks. This shows a lack of manners and respect for others and therefore do not deserve an answer. |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 8:02 am: | |
Cindy, I am sorry that you can not give me the support I need. I have seen many of Bill's ill and sick humor directed at demeaning and belittle people and I have several times been on the wrong side of his jokes. I am sorry that you have encouraged him to continue. Perhaps you can not see through it because it is not happening to you. Bill's MO in many of his posts are to use humor as a way of belittling and intimidating people so he can be on the dominant end.
Valerie |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 8:06 am: | |
Kelly,
Thank you for coming forward. It was with tears in my eyes that I received your words of comfort. This has been very hurtful for me but I am continuing forward because I truly believe that I can not stand by and watch a horrific doctrine be promoted.
I have been concerned for you and wondering whether you just quite coming to the site. I am so happy to hear you come forward and make your presence known. I wait anxiously to hear more about your spiritual journey.
Once again Thank you GODS CHOSEN ONE! And now I will add to your name GODS CHOSEN ONE IN CHRIST JESUS.
Much Love and appreciation,
Valerie |
Valm
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 8:24 am: | |
ChuckieJ,
Thank you for that wonderful website on the doctrine of election. I browsed shortly a couple of nights ago and really enjoyed the one from Mark Twain.
The site adress is worth repeating: members.aol.com/ndxmanager/index
Have a great day,
Valerie |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 4:27 pm: | |
Dear Bill, Kelly and ALL:
Bill Twisse, first:
Your wisdom never ceases to amaze me! I could never be so clear if I'd tried. Your calm and well placed humor is also very classy! It resembles the type of humor God himself displayed when He afflicted His enemies with hemorroids, when he placed an evil spirit in Saul, when he used puny and powerless Pharaoh for His own purpose, whe He will laugh at His enemies as in Psalm 2:4 and others, and ultimately when he booted lucifer out of heaven and gave him what? THE EARTH TO MESS UP FROM HELL!
Does not God have a sense of humor?
You have to explain to some though, what is CAMPELLISM.. Some here may think you're accusing Shank to be ADDICTED TO CANNED SOUP!!!
Kelly:
You say:
You have hammered away and had no mercy at all on a person that is struggling in her relationship with Christ because of what you write. You have literally pushed someone away from their spiritual relationship and then refer to yourselves as more godly. One of you went so far as to attack the forum saying it was nothing but a "support group", but isn't that what all organized study is spiritual support.
Are you the same Kelly that argued before in this Forum defending CURRENT SDAism but would never respond to anybody's question? Just wanted to know! COULD YOU LET ME KNOW! If you are, I will cut and paste your past posts defending SDAism and then our brothers and sisters here will have a chance to be brought up to speed of what you think. If you are, no wonder you have a problem with what Bill and I write! IF YOU ARE THE SAME, NO WONDER MANY HERE AGREE WITH YOU. If you're not, I refer you to the next paragraphs.
But THAT IS OKAY I understand your disagreement and pray that God gives you even more wisdom everyday. But do not kill the messenger because you do not agree with the message!
ALL
I'd suggest you to read the posts above and decide on the following matter:
WHO IS PERSONALLY ATTACKING WHO?
WHO IS ATTACKING THE MESSENGER BECAUSE THEY DO NOT AGREE WITH THE MESSAGE?
Once you do that, I believe you will be able to decide why some want to "cheapen" the message of Grace by not allowing its teaching beginning from where it starts!
I will not break the rules of the Forum. I think it is not nice and I have more to do in life than to participate in support groups whose member's name I only know as a screen name. Anybody, any psycho can come to this forum and post emotionally manipulative posts and take advantage of us. This happened before in this very forum and I think that I learned the lesson. That is the reason why I prefer that we discuss issues racionally here, and consider each other's ideas as support or not. To expect anymore it, would be "personalizing" computers, hiding behind it, saying what we want and then when confronted, attacking the confronter using ad hominen. If you think that this is the perfect atmosphere to a support group, I'd suggest your nearest psychiatric hospital!
I feel really bad before the Lord that I am not writing that which is satisfying TO THE SPIRITUAL NEEDS OF Former Adventists. But it seems that we have to say only what people WANT AND EXPECT TO HEAR LEST THEY WILL LASH YOU WITH THEIR TONGUES AND EMOTIONAL MANIPULATION!
One thing I learned in life. I say this with all brotherly respect:
Only children have to be supported all the time and fed all the time. Once we reach adulthood, we can help ourselves, he are able to raise the spoon to our own mouths. (I pray that to qualify someone as a "child" is not construed as a personal attack worse than "you are arrogant"...)
My e-mail is published in this forum. I will take all personal attacks personally from now on. Therefore, please, let's stop doing it here unless you want to break the rules!
If you can't find my e-mail address, I HAVE ONE THAT IS USED SOLELY FOR MY ENEMIES TO TEAR ME DOWN ANYWAY THEY CHOOSE AND LEAVE OTHER CHRISTIANS ALONE click here:
BEAT UP UNCLE MILT
I love you all anyway!
I finish with one scripture:
Romans 11:33 O THE DEPTH OF THE RICHES BOTH OF THE WISDOM AND KOWLEDGE OF GOD! HOW UNSEARCHABLE ARE HIS JUDGEMENTS, AND HIS WAYS ARE PAST FINDING OUT!
"Mere human reason, says Luther to Erasmus, can never comprehend how God is good and Merciful, and therefore you make a God of your own fancy, who hardens nobody (Romans 9), condemns nobody, pitties everybody. You cannot comprehend how a just God can condemn those who are born in sin, and cannot help themselves, but must, by a necessity of their natural constitution continue in sin and remain children of wrath. The answer is, God is INCOMPREHENSIBLE throughout, therefore His justice and all His other attributes must be incomprehensible. It is the very grounds that St. Paul exclaims: "O the depth of the riches of the knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgements and His ways are past finding out! NOW HIS JUDGEMENTS WOULD NOT BE PAST FINDING OUT IF WE ALWAYS PERCEIVE THEM TO BE JUST!
Grace Ambassador |
Cindy
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 6:12 pm: | |
Valerie, You are right! I AM unable to give you the support you need...
Only GOD can give you that peace... My feeble attempts fall short, especially over this medium!
My "encouragement" of Bill was not in any way meant to be a de-meaning of your feelings. I just wanted him to know I understood his humor. Apparently you and I see things very differently. :-))
Remember just recently when you said that if I believe like "Grace Ambassador", why "bother" to pray for my husband--just assume that he will "burn, burn, burn?"
Honestly! I did not take you as mean-spirited when you wrote that! My 13 year old son read it and said, "wow, Mom, I can't believe she said that!" But I explained the context and we laughed at it. :-)
I think there are times to laugh at ourselves!!
Of course, there are some things that are not laughing matters. And maybe I'm confused as to which are which!! :-))
I'm probably making this worse!! So I plan to take a short "sabbatical" from this site for now...
I just know that the past few years have been very hard; I want to REST more and more each day in God's marvelous grace! Blessings to everyone... :-)) :-))
Grace always,
Cindy |
Kelly
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 6:29 pm: | |
Grace Ambassador,
I really don't understand your sensitivity. If you hold the truth then why are you so defensive about it?
My first post on this site was on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 09:20 am under Questions on Scripture. I have nothing to hide so copy and paste if you so desire. I would not consider any of my posts to have been under the category of defending SDAism; but if you have nothing better to do you can go back and read them. If there was another person listed as Kelly prior to that I have no knowledge of it. I began to read the posts on FAF just after the new year.
I'm really not quite sure how to respond to you. You are actually the first person on this site that I have read their posts and conversed with that has been aggressively natured. All the others that I have conversed with have responded in a rather mild manner.
Enough said, just thought I would properly inform you of when I first posted here so you would recognize your error of assumption. |
Richardtinker
| | Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2001 - 7:28 pm: | |
This discussion began on June 11, 2000. I think that today is a good day to end it. In the future, if you are not a new former Adventist, please think about the thousands of new former Adventists who are visiting and reading this forum before you continue an argument that will never be resolved in this lifetime. |
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