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Archive through June 21, 2000Max20 6-21-00  10:07 pm
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Archive through June 26, 2000Pat Darnell20 6-26-00  12:35 pm
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Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love it, Pat!

My sister (an Episcopalian) and I were talking recently about how many of the great hymns have different words than the words they had when we were kids! It's amazing about how many references to the Trinity and eternity were left out of the SDA hymnal.

For example, the end of "Holy, Holy, Holy" says, "God in three person, blessed Trinity."

In the pre-1990 SDA hymnal (before it was revised and republished) Holy, Holy, Holy ended this way: "God, over all, who rules eternally."

Pretty amazing!

Colleen
Patti
Posted on Monday, June 26, 2000 - 4:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are right, Cindy! I never realized that until just this moment. I remember being confused as a very young child because I didn't know what a "rulsey ternity" was! :)

Did anyone notice (besides me) in the old SDA church hymnal that "Joy to the World" was not with the rest of the Christmas hymns, but was about 100 pages further and the words were changed from "Joy to the world, the Lord is come," to "Joy to the world, the Lord WILL come." I am sure that was not accidental.

And what in the world do they do with "Because He Lives"? I understand it is in the new hymnal. I am sure they had to do all kinds of doctoring on the words.
Pat Darnell
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2000 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They left out the entire stanza.......
Pat Darnell
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2000 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They left out the entire stanza.......
Pat Darnell
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2000 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They left out the entire stanza.......
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, June 27, 2000 - 8:54 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was wondering...
I was singing it at the OA homecoming last year. It seems to me that they must have changed something also. I know the words so I wasn't looking and was singing my heart out, but I wasn't singing what they were singing.

Also, if I am not mistaken, doesn't the old SDA hymnal on "Joy to the World" change the words in another stanza from "He rules the world with truth and grace," to "Soon He will rule the world with grace"?

The first coming of Christ seems to have little significance to traditional SDA thought...
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Galatians 2:6. Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

"The Apostle next adduces the example of Abraham and reviews the testimony of the Scriptures concerning faith. The first passage is taken from Genesis 16:6: 'And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.' The Apostle makes the most of this passage. Abraham may have enjoyed a good standing with men for his upright life, but not with God. In the sight of God, Abraham was a condemned sinner. That he was justified before God was not due to his own exertions, but due to his faith. The Scriptures expressly state: 'Abraham believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.'

"Paul places the emphasis upon the two words: Abraham believed. Faith in God constitutes the highest worship, the prime duty, the first obedience, and the foremost sacrifice. Without faith God forfeits His glory, wisdom, truth, and mercy in us. The first duty of man is to believe in God and to honor Him with his faith. Faith is truly the height of wisdom, the right kind of righteousness, the only real religion. This will give us an idea of the excellence of faith.

"To believe in God as Abraham did is to be right with God because faith honors God. Faith says to God: "I believe what you say."

"When we pay attention to reason, God seems to propose impossible matters in the Christian Creed. To reason it seems absurd that Christ should offer His body and blood in the Lord's Supper; that Baptism should be the washing of regeneration; that the dead shall rise; that Christ the Son of God was conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary, etc. Reason shouts that all this is preposterous. Are you surprised that reason thinks little of faith? Reason thinks it ludicrous that faith should be the foremost service any person can render unto God.

"Let your faith supplant reason. Abraham mastered reason by faith in the Word of God. Not as though reason ever yields meekly. It put up a fight against the faith of Abraham. Reason protested that it was absurd to think that Sarah who was ninety years old and barren by nature, should give birth to a son. But faith won the victory and routed reason, that ugly beast and enemy of God. Everyone who by faith slays reason, the world's biggest monster, renders God a real service, a better service than the religions of all races and all the drudgery of meritorious monks can render.

"Men fast, pray, watch, suffer. They intend to appease the wrath of God and to deserve God's grace by their exertions. But there is no glory in it for God, because by their exertions these workers pronounce God an unmerciful slave driver, an unfaithful and angry Judge. They despise God, make a liar out of Him, snub Christ and all His benefits; in short they pull God from His throne and perch themselves on it.

"Faith truly honors God. And because faith honors God, God counts faith for righteousness.

"Christian righteousness is the confidence of the heart in God through Christ Jesus. Such confidence is accounted righteousness for Christ's sake. Two things make for Christian righteousness: Faith in Christ, which is a gift of God; and God's acceptance of this imperfect faith of ours for perfect righteousness. Because of my faith in Christ, God overlooks my distrust, the unwillingness of my spirit, my many other sins. Because the shadow of Christ's wing covers me I have no fear that God will cover all my sins and take my imperfections for perfect righteousness.

"God 'winks' at my sins and covers them up. God says: 'Because you believe in My Son I will forgive your sins until death shall deliver you from the body of sin.'

"Learn to understand the constitution of your Christian righteousness. Faith is weak, but it means enough to God that He will not lay sin to our charge. He will not punish nor condemn us for it. He will forgive our sins as though they amount to nothing at all. He will do it not because we are worthy of such mercy. He will do it for Jesus' sake in whom we believe.

"Paradoxically, a Christian is both right and wrong, holy and profane, an enemy of God and a child of God. These contradictions no person can harmonize who does not understand the true way of salvation. Under the papacy we were told to toil until the feeling of guilt had left us. But the authors of this deranged idea were frequently driven to despair in the hour of death. It would have happened to me, if Christ had not mercifully delivered me from this error.

"We comfort the afflicted sinner in this manner: Brother, you can never be perfect in this life, but you can be holy. He will say: 'How can I be holy when I feel my sins?' I answer: You feel sin? That is a good sign. To realize that one is ill is a step, and a very necessary step, toward recovery. 'But how will I get rid of my sin?' he will ask. I answer: See the heavenly Physician, Christ, who heals the broken-hearted. Do not consult that Quackdoctor, Reason. Believe in Christ and your sins will be pardoned. His righteousness will become your righteousness, and your sins will become His sins.

"On one occasion Jesus said to His disciples: 'The Father loveth you.' Why? Not because the disciples were Pharisees, or circumcised, or particularly attentive to the Law. Jesus said: 'The Father loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. It pleased you to know that the Father sent me into the world. And because you believed it the Father loves you.' On another occasion Jesus called His disciples evil and commanded them to ask for forgiveness.

"A Christian is beloved of God and a sinner. How can these two contradictions be harmonized: I am a sinner and deserve God's wrath and punishment, and yet the Father loves me? Christ alone can harmonize these contradictions. He is the Mediator.

"Do you now see how faith justifies without works? Sin lingers in us, and God hates sin. A transfusion of righteousness therefore becomes vitally necessary. This transfusion of righteousness we obtain from Christ because we believe in Him."
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How true, Patti,

For as Luther said, "We are saved by faith
alone, but not by faith that is alone."

Amen,

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the faith that saves is never alone, then we are not saved by faith alone. That is a very circular argument.

And one that I am discussing with the SDAs on another board. Are you still SDA, Max? I am just curious, because I have had all of the disagreements that you and I are experiencing with the SDAs already. It is as if you are making the SDA arguments for them. Seems that many on here have left the form of the SDA structure but still hang onto the SDA gospel. The form is meaningless. The substance is in the Gospel.
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 11:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW, what did you say the reference was for that Luther quote you just posted?
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 1:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Luther's statement is not circular.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Re: Lutherís statement: We are saved by faith
alone, but not by a faith that is alone.

I donít have the primary source at hand, but
here is a reliable secondary source.


ìAll of the Reformers insisted that the faith that
justifies is active and immediately begins to
produce fruit in good works. We are justified
by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone,
Luther stated.î

Michael S. Horton, Justification By Faith Alone:
Vital Now and Always, ©1994 Alliance of
Confessing Evangelicals

http://www.alliancenet.org/pub/articles/horton.j
ustification.html
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NOT BY A FAITH THAT IS ALONE: Another
reliable secondary source

ìWhen the Reformers declared that we are
justified by faith not by works, the Roman
Catholic Church called the Reformation
leaders "antinomian." The Catholic Church
was concerned that if it were taught that we
are saved solely by God's grace then the
motivation to pursue holiness would be lost.
The Reformers were sensitive to the Catholic
Church's concern, and they declared that we
are "justified by faith alone but not by a faith
that is alone." In other words, you are saved by
the grace of God from first to last, you are
justified by faith alone; but God works out your
redemption by transforming your life from one
of sin to one of holiness.î

R.C. Sproul, Ligonier Ministries.
ligonier@gospelcom.net
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 1:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ìWe are justified by faith alone, but not by a
faith that is alone.î --Martin Luther. Third
reliable secondary source:

But what place do works have in the life of the
Christian? This is a very important question.
True Christianity is a faith filled with good
works. And while we are not saved by works,
works accompany salvation. I believe it was
Luther who said, ìWe are justified by faith
alone, but not by a faith that is alone.î What he
meant by that was that true faith will always
reveal itself by accompanying works. To quote
James 2:26: ìFaith without works is dead.î So
works have a tremendous place in the life of
every believer. They are evidence of the
genuineness of our faith.

J. David Hoke, ìEphesians 2:10: Our Identity In
Christ.î 8th in the Series God's Masterwork,
May 17, 1992. J. David Hoke, Pastor, New
Horizons Community Church, 2303 Evesham
Rd. Voorhees, NJ. 08043.

http://www.horizonsnet.org/sermons/eph08.ht
ml
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lately, I've done no good works that I can think of.

I've been hammmered over the head with this fact too. By other Christians.

Do they think I don't know that I'm doing very little these days to help someone? Do they figure me an idiot? What is the deal with that?

I'm sick with the flu. Maybe this is influencing my thoughts..who knows.

I know that if I have to look to my works for consolation, I'm in trouble. I have none to speak of.

Unless, works can be revealing the Gospel to others. I do this without meaning to and this is what is getting to other Christians I know.

They ask me "is that all you can talk about...God?"

True story. And for this talking of God and His Mercy, I'm being stoned over here.

I'll be glad when Jesus comes.

D
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 11:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Denise,

Jesus has already come in your heart. You are
already "perfect forever," meaning "sinless
forever." Hebrews 10:13-14. And you are
already in heaven here and now. Luke
17:20-22.

Now you are learning that there are trials and
tribulations even in heaven, for the kingdom of
heaven is under our feet as well as over our
heads.

Faith, have faith in God.

Blessings always,

Max of the Cross
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never understood what the term, "Righteousness by Faith" means. Would someone please explain it to me? Also, growing up SDA was I taught that, or not? Honestly, I don't remember the term from the SDA at all
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Simply, you have the righteousness of God imparted to you by your faith in Jesus. You believe and receive...He sees you as righteous! Pretty cool hu?
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I like that. Therefore, I will embrace it. Now, does the SDA teach this doctrine or not? And, if not, how come?
Loneviking (Loneviking)
Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 8:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, like most things SDA, they speak out of both sides of their mouth. The 1888 controversy was over this issue, and SDA's today say they believe this---but it puts them in a quandry. If it is 'righteousness by faith' then what do you do with the Sabbath and the rules for keeping that--along with all of the other legalistic rules of SDA'ism?

The answer is to reinterpret what this means. For most SDA's, the way I've heard this is 'Righteousness saves us---and this righteousness comes by following the commandments of God'.....and from this comes the really awful idea of SDA's that Christ came down to show us that the law could be kept perfectly; that we are able to keep the law perfectly; and that we had better be striving for that goal as a time is coming when we have to live without an intercessor during the Time of Trouble;.....

So no, the SDA's don't teach righteousness by faith the same as other churches..........

Bill
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well the ones I know say you are righteous by faith but then since you love God so much, you keep all of His commandments.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 11:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Sabra, which goes in an inferred circle.

. . . and if you mess up just ONCE, you must NOT love God, so you are not righteous and have no faith. So you BETTER NOT MESS UP!!!

Grace is a GIFT!

(I know, I'm preaching to the choir.)

Jerry
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, December 14, 2002 - 10:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And here's a new twist: there's a SDA church here in So. Cal. where the pastor teaches that we are all born saved because of Jesus' death (and the implication is that we have FAITH in his death), and the way a person is lost is to persistently refuse to keep the law. By persistently refusing to keep the law, this pastor says, we "choose another god", and are thus lost.

I guess we could call this "being lost by works."

No, Bill is right: Adventists do not teach true righteousness by faith even though there is a rather popular movement within the church, the 1888 Message, that says it teaches righteousness by faith. It still proclaims the necessity of the law, however.

Praise God, grace is a GIFT! (Thanks, Jerry!)

Colleen
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 3:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry,

I can't sing a note but your message is the Truth and a good one!

Thank you again.

Blessings to your household.

Denise
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Sunday, January 26, 2003 - 6:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a great read. It is a commentary on the entire book of Galatians by Martin Luther:

http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
Posted on Thursday, January 30, 2003 - 4:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, you made my day! I needed some good humor and you delivered. I'm laughing my head off over here at that pastor's ridiculous theology! It would be even funnier if I didn't know there are people who actually FOLLOW this! That's the tragedy within this comedy.
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Saturday, April 05, 2003 - 4:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wasn't sure which discussion I should post this devotional in and don't have much time since I promised to be in Heflin, Alabama today to help with the annual bake sale, yard sale, car wash for the American Cancer Society. I don't have any time during the week to do what I really enjoy doing, my life is all work and no play these days, and I really did want to spend some time in the forum but can't for now, so, I thought I would paste this great devotional here and come back to it this evening with my comments.

Maybe some of you can be reading it and give your thoughts on the subject. As for what I gleaned from it to begin with was a type of study between law and grace especially the part about obedience and "thinking" that what "we" do is better.

Read I Samuel 14:24 -- 16
Saul's foolish oath l Saul demands that any soldier who eats before evening be killed l Needing strength, Jonathan eats honey, but was not executed l Saul commanded to destroy all Amalekites, but sins by sparing the enemy king l Samuel rebukes Saul l David anointed king l Spirit of the Lord departs from Saul.
Verse for Today:
Samuel said, How can I go? if Saul hear it, he will kill me. . . . the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart (I Samuel 16:2,7).
Few kings in biblical history were blessed with as many advantages as Saul; but, he soon failed to remember the source of his success. Although Saul did some good, all too often, he was more concerned about his public image before the elders of Israel than with restoring a right relationship with God. Saul exposed his true character when Samuel came to him and said: Thus [said] the Lord of hosts, I remember [what] Amalek did to Israel. . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and [do not] spare them (I Samuel 15:2-3).

Saul defeated the Amalekites and then erected a memorial to himself at Carmel, a city near Hebron, to commemorate his great victory (15:12). When Samuel met him after the battle with Amalek, Saul boasted of his success, saying: I have obeyed the voice of the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me (15:20). Although there had been a great military victory, Saul had disobeyed the command of God to destroy all that they have. Saul not only had "spared" the Amalekite king Agag, but tried to shift the blame by saying: The people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen . . . to sacrifice [to] the Lord (15:21). Saul had an ìexcuseî for his disobedience. To utterly destroy would have been a true burnt offering to God. But he allowed Israel to keep the best to eat at their next sacrificial feast.

Samuel once again rebuked Saul, saying: To obey is better than sacrifice. . . . For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because [you have] rejected the Word of the Lord, He [has] also rejected [you] from being king (15:22-23). Saul finally confessed his partial obedience, saying: I have sinned: for I have transgressed the Commandment of the Lord. . . . because I feared the people, and obeyed their voice. . . . I have sinned: yet honor me now . . . before the elders of my people (15:24,30).

Though some may consider that Saul's disobedience was of little consequence, the Lord said that what Saul did was evil. How easily we can deceive ourselves if we believe that God will be pleased with our accomplishments "for Him" even though we obey only what pleases us.

Like Saul, it is possible for us to do many things that appear to be good and right before others while actually living in willful disobedience to the Word of God. There exists today a popular misconception that God is satisfied with a "profession of faith" while a person continues to live an undisciplined, self-centered, and even sinful life.

Our confession of faith must match our inward submission to Christ and our outward lifestyle. Examine yourselves, (to see) whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves (II Corinthians 13:5).

Christ Revealed:

Through David's name (I Samuel 16:13), which means "beloved." David is a type of Jesus, Whom the Heavenly Father called: My beloved Son (Matt. 3:17; 17:5; Mark 1:11; 9:7; Luke 3:22; 9:35).

Word Studies:

14:24 adjured = bound them under oath; 14:28 straitly = strictly, definitely; 14:31 smote = had struck down; 14:41 perfect lot = right answer; 14:46 went up from following = stopped pursuing; 14:47 took the kingdom = consolidated his rule; vexed = conquered; 15:29 repent = never go back on His Word; 15:32 delicately = trembling with fear.

God bless and have a great day, it is 7:40 now and already 63 degrees, so, unless it begins to rain, it looks like it will be a good day.

Janice
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of my devotionals that I get sent to my e-mail address from christiansunite.com:

Their Redeemer [is] strong.

I know your manifold transgressions and your mighty sins.--I have laid help upon [one that is] mighty.--Thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.--Mighty to save.--Able to keep you from falling.--Where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.--He is able . . . to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem?

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? . . . I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jer 50:34 Am 5:12 Ps 89:19 Isa 49:26 63:1 Jude 1:24 Ro 5:20 Joh 3:18 Heb 7:25 Isa 50:2 Ro 8:35,38,39

Hope this is a blessing to all of you.

Janice

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