| Author | Message | ||
| Richard Tinker |
Lynn, I deleted your dublicate post. : ) (Colleen does all the writing--I do the tech stuff.) | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lynn, so far I've only had time enough to skim over your research. This is real "sword of the spirit" stuff! Exactly the kind of thing I had in mind. You're a real gem. More later. -Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear Richard, So, "Colleen does all the writing--I do the tech stuff," huh? How now, brown cow (sorry, couldn't resist), is this assertion not a copout? How many loyal to this great website think we should let our equally great webmaster get away with that? Since poll-type questions seem to be popular here, I what to start another one. It consists of two questions: 1. Should Richard be allowed to "get off easy" by letting his wife -- the level-headed, articulate, well-read, and ever-gracious Colleen -- do "all the writing"? Yes or No? 2. Why or why not? I'll start: 1. No, he shouldn't. 2. He has a good mind and has always posted well so far. He has also had his own unique experience within SDAbylon. And we want to hear his perspective. At least once in awhile. -Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
Richard, Thanks, heaps. I thought so, but I wasn't sure. Jude, here, here!! | ||
| Mom |
Hi everyone, Iím Mom. More correctly Maryannís Mom, Iím very concerned for all of you. The feeling I get from some of your posts is bitterness. It seems like there is a lot of preoccupation with Adventism. I am so happy since Iím a SDA again. Having become an Adventist in 1928, I have a lot of background in it. I left in the 80s and never was happy in a Sunday church. When I found 3ABN last year it was like coming home! Iím so happy. The Bible has never ment so much to me as now. Iím reading the Gospels and Revelation over and over and am really getting to know the Lord personally as never before. I only have one EGW book left, Steps to Christ, and find it so beautiful and in line with the Bible. (Iíve had it for over 50 years). I am only interested in studying the Bible as it reveals Jesus to me so beautifully. Iím very concerned about this Sabbath being everyday, theology. I read Hebrews and donít see what you all and Maryann see. It strengthens my belief in the Sabbath. As far as the interpretations you and other non-Sabbath keepers have of Paulís writings, I simply go to 2 Peter 3:14-18. ě14-Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15-and regard the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16-as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17-You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard lest, being carried away by the error of unprincipled men, you fall from your own steadfastness, 18-but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.î And Amen! Even Peter said that Paul was hard to understand at times and I believe with all my heart, soul and body that you all are not understanding Paul. ěIf you love me keep my Commandments.î The Word tells me this and I have to obey. Trusting in the Lord.............Mom | ||
| Lynn W |
Mom, Welcome, it's good to have you on here and to hear your side. As for any feelings of bitterness, speaking only for myself, what I feel is sorrow for my SDA friends for the things they've been through and the confusion they have about Christ and what He has done for them. As for the preoccupation with Adventism, that is what the forum is about - "Former Adventist Fellowship." I'm glad to hear you are only interested in studying the Bible. Part of teaching the truth though, is to point out error. Just like the Adventists are preoccupied with teaching the errors of Catholicism, we feel called to point out the errors of Ellen White. Hope to hear more from you. Lynn | ||
| Maryann |
Richard, I'm just curious, what in the world is all the stuff that showed up below this posting box? A lot of % and + signs mixed in previous messages? It really cracked me up to see Lynn with a % attached to her name! In the future, Lynn, make sure I know what percentage of you is talking?!!! You know, curiousity killed the cat! Keep on smiling.......Maryann | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Mom, Nice to have you on the forum. Do you think bitterness was the reason Paul left the Pharisees? | ||
| Lynn W |
Maryann, What % of me was talking? It depends on what time of day it was. :^) I have another question for those who accuse of bitterness. Was John the Baptist bitter when he pointed out the sins of Herod? Does it make any difference? Truth is truth regardless of the emotional state of the person saying it. | ||
| Gary Mayo |
The SDA-EGW Historical Society Hi Mom! Pleased to meet you! Do you follow EGW as a messenger of God? | ||
| Bruce H |
Hi Mom ----- The Bible has never ment so much to me as now. Im reading the Gospels and Revelation over and over and am really getting to know the Lord personally as never before.-------- This is what it is all about keep to the Bible and Trust in the Lord. ----I read Hebrews and don1t see what you all and Maryann see.------- Somtimes it is hard to see from other view points, but our Lord and savior is great for opening eyes and ears for both of Us. For me I give him all seven days for he gave me LIFE. Bruce | ||
| Maryann |
This is for anyone, Is there an easy way to to show that the 10C are part of the Torah? That what got nailed to the cross was the whole package? How did Bruce come up with the numbers of the "other" commandments up to the 600s. I haven't looked through all the material here for this info, but if it's easy to show ,I WANT to see it. Where did it say that God wrote those too? Or did Moses write them at God's command? I spent all day in "truthorfables.com" and copied a bunch of materials to be reading at lunch time when I go back to work! I just about needed a ton of Tums or Pepcid to settle my stomach after seeing all that stuff. Are you guys ready for another story? I got one to post. Just say the word and it will appear. Queasily....Maryann | ||
| Plain Patti |
Dear Maryann, Hebrews shows that the law was one complete "ball of wax." At first, one may think that the author of Hebrews is referring merely to the sacrificial system. Hebrews 7:11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the law was given to the people), why was there still need for another priest to come--one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? 12 For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law. 13 He of whom these things are said belonged to a different tribe, and no one from that tribe has ever served at the altar. 14 For it is clear that our Lord descended from Judah, and in regard to that tribe Moses said nothing about priests. 15 And what we have said is even more clear if another priest like Melchizedek appears, 16 one who has become a priest not on the basis of a regulation as to his ancestry but on the basis of the power of an indestructible life. 17 For it is declared: "You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek." 18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God. Hebrews 9:19 When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20 He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep." 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. At this point SDAs will say, Well, that is not speaking of the 10 Commandments, but only of the ceremonial law. Read further: Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, 4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; 6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased. 7 Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'" 8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made). 9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second. 10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. The Book of Hebrews deals with the SUPERIORITY of Christ to the old order--the sanctuary with all of its ceremonies and rituals. The author here states that the old order was not able to deal with SIN, yet we are perfected by Christ's sacrifice. Where does the conviction of SIN come from? Romans 5:13 ... sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Romans 4:14 For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15 because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Is this the CEREMONIAL law to which Paul refers? Obviously not. So if the author of Hebrews is speaking of the law not being able to deal with sin, it is not the cermonial law to which (s)he refers, but the entire law of God, specifically in this instance, the "moral" law. (Don't you just love that terminology? Is there an "immoral" law? :) Well, maybe in Texas there is...) 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. Logically, even SDAs have to agree that this refers to the "moral" law. Was there a distinction between the "ceremonial" law that the author spoke of in previous verses and the "law" mentioned here? No, there wasn't. Law is law. And our brother James says that anyone who breaks the smallest and most insignificant of the laws is guilty of them all. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water. I just love the book of Hebrews. It is well worth a complete reading once a month or more, the theme being the complete superiority of Jesus Christ to all of the "shadows" before. (Notice verse 10:1 says that the entire law is a shadow of the Reality of Jesus Christ.) Thank God we no longer have to live in the shadows; we live in the Light of the Son! | ||
| Plain Patti |
Oh, and, YES, Maryann, we want to hear your next story! | ||
| Maryann |
Thank you Patti, I need to digest this. I still want to know where the numbering system that Bruce used came from? What is it , 600+ commandments. I sent this little story to a FAF friend that said she climbed this mountain about 50 years ago when she was in her 20s. She suggested that ya'll would enjoy it. Climbing Mt.Thielson (a 9000ft.+ Mt. near Crater Lake Ore.) was a the thrill of a life time. I was 15 (14?), tripple tuff and proud of it. I went with this experienced old fella (40), his lady friend and a herd of about 6 boys that were only a little tuff that were about my age. I don't think any of us kids had ever climbed. All went well climbing up. He was very good with us kids, had us all outfitted with our ice axes, cramp ons, ropes etc. He was at the head of 5 and I was at the head of 4. We did a few practice slips so we knew how to holler, "dig in", so the whole string of us wouldn't slid down that long steep slope. (Over a 1000 ft.). Everyone of course, had to carry their own gear which with the rope was quite heavy for kids, (I mean the boys). When we got up to the little ledge that I remember as about 40ft. from the top, we rested. Out fearless leader then very carefully, even though it was icy, climbed to the top of that 40ft. sheer rock pinnacle and hollered NEXT. I was on my way! He told me to carefully hand over hand all the way up. NO PROBLEM!! Get this, I was in no way tied to anything!? Just my hands to the rope. I was unusually strong and I was just running up the rope. To my right a couple feet was THAT sheer drop off that I remember as millions of feet down (600 to 1000ft?). Almost to the top, I looked up just as some clouds against the blue sky were blowing over, giving me the sickening feeling that the whole rock pinnacle was falling over on me. I FROZE! Climbing that fast then stopping that fast with the rope above me on a bit of a knob, caused me to swing to the right over that sheer million foot drop off! God and fear (and maybe fear of God too!) glued my hands to that rope! The guy swung me back were I belonged and I continued up. I think there was a bench mark in the middle of the top and I sat there immobilized for as long as we were all up there(10 years!). What amazes me is that I didn't puke or mess my pants. I some how climbed off the top with no outward fear. (To proud and tuff.) I remember the top as about 18-20ft around? We had a blast on the way down. We slid a lot just for the fun of it. As we got down in the trees again, some of the boys got tired and had to stop. Then they couldn't carry their loads because the snow was crusty and hard to walk in. I guess I was still so pumped from my near swing with death that I was able to carry all my gear plus 2 of their ropes (300ft all togather) and their ice axes and cramp ons hanging all over me. It was really to much, but yours truely was WAY to proud to say a word. I was so happy to see the van and dump the loads! Why was I so determined to be so tough? 'Cause EGW squelched my gender so soundly! This was one of the times I didn't have to wear a "dress" as such, but a longish oooowgly top of some sort over pants. Still, what a horrible thing that I nearly killed myself all my growing up years to prove I was tough enough to wear pants with out a dress over them! Was I just a rebellious teenager? Lots of other SDA girls accepted the dress code. Look at the Amish people. They put their women and girls though hell and they accept it. Why was it so un-acceptable to me??? I was a good kid other than the dress problem and the fact that I argued in the sense that I needed to know WHY something was wrong and all the reasons. I was not questioning authority so much as wanting something logical to hang a belief or command on? Mom, even now, says that I was a good kid except for the above. The other SDAs we were around felt I was way to boisterious. I WAS JUST A HAPPY KID AND SHOWED IT! I guess I better quit before I have a conniption fit. Sincerely connipting..........Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
Maryann All adventist and all christians churches know there are 613 commandments. I could not find them anywhere so I went into LA and found them from a Jewish Rabbi in LA. He has given me some great material. Here is the Book that has all 613 commandments where they are found in the Bible (or Torah) and there is a commentary on every one of them. The Book is BIBLICAL LITERACY By Rabbi Joseph Telushkin. I would really recomend this Book. I am sure you could find this on the internet at( (amazon.com) and maybe at your local book store. I find it facinating that SDA's who claim to be the keepers of the Law, yet they do not even know that much about the Law. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann, I think of the Ten Commandment law as good, but still inferior to the Christ who used Moses to give it to Israel. Let's read a passage of Scripture while substituting the term "the Ten Commandment law" for the term "Moses." We can justify such an exercise, at least for learning purposes, because the New Testament often uses the term "Moses" interchangeably with the term "the law." Example (Mark 7:10 NIV) quoting Jesus: "For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother.'" One can thus, without doing violence to the text, translate this as, "For the law said, 'Honor your father and your mother.'" Now let's do it with Hebrews 3:1-6 (NIV): "Therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess. He was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as the Ten Commandment law was faithful in all God's house. Jesus has been found worthy of greater honor than the Ten Commandment law, just as the builder of a house has greater honor than the house itself. For every house is built by someone, but God is the builder of everything. The Ten Commandment law was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. But Christ is faithful as a son over God's house." Thus the "law of Christ" can indeed replace the entire Ten Commandment law in every way, even morally and especially morally, because it is superior in every way, even morally and especially morally. For example, because Jesus was "Lord of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:8), he could break the Sabbath (John 5:18) and command others to do so as well (John 5:11). Notice also that "the house" anology still holds: Jesus and his New Testament commandments are superior to Moses and his Old Testament commandments just as the builder of the house is superior to the house itself. Does this help? Jude | ||
| Lynn W |
Good job, Patti, very thorough. Luke 24:44 "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spoke unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." This verse sums up what we call the Old Testament. "By the 'Law' was meant the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament." Understanding the Bible by John RW Stott, pg. 15. "Torah. The five books of Moses, which comprise the first divsion of the Hebrew Scriptures. Usually, translated 'law',,," Y'SHUA by Moishe Rosen, pg. 126. "The Hebrew Old Testament contains exactly the same books as our English Old Testament, but in different arrangement: 'Law,' (5 books) Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy..." Halley's Bible Handbook by Henry H. Halley, pg. 26. "The books of Law are the first five books of the Old Testament." What the Bible is All About - Quick Reference Edition pg. 16. Joshua 1:7-8; 8:31-32; 23:6; 24:26; 1 Kings 2:3; 2 Kings 14:6; 23:25; 2 Chron. 23:18; 30:16; Ezra 3:2; 7:6; Nehemiah 8:1; Daniel 9:11-13; Malachi 4:4; Luke 2:22; John 7:23; Acts 13:39; 15:5; 28:23; 1 Cor. 9:9 "Where did it say that God wrote those too? Or did Moses write them at God's command?" All law came from God. Each section of scripture that gives law begins with, "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying," | ||
| Plain Patti |
Thank you for adding your thoughts, Jude and Lynn. I wish I had had your brains around about 25 years ago when I was trying to muddle through this on my own! Something else occurred to me while reading your both of your posts. In Matthew Jesus constantly refers to Himself as the fulfillment of Scripture. I suppose the most well-noted quotation is Matthew 5:17, 18: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until all is fulfilled." Lawmongers, such as SDAs, however, will use this text to "prove" we are still subject to the law as a means of reconciling ourselves to God. That is because, as per usual, they are missing a very important point in the passage. It is very simple. Let me illustrate: A. Jesus came not to destroy, but to fulfil. B. Not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all was fulfilled. C. Jesus fulfilled all of the law. Conclusion: That a jot or tittle (or more) may have passed from the law now that all has been fulfilled. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Oh, and another thing, speaking of Christ's fulfillment of the law. In John 5, Jesus shows how He is superior to the law and the prophets: John 5:36 I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. Jesus is saying that his testimony is greater than that of the greatest prophet of His day, John the Baptist. 37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. This is truly an indictment of the belief that there is "life" in the study of the Bible in and of itself. On the contrary, Jesus indicates that if that study does not lead one to an understanding of His salvation, it is useless. 41 "I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. This is an indictment of anyone who claims any individual as someone with greater light, further revelation, amplification, clarification--anything that is superior or adds to the clear teachings of the Gospel of our Lord. 44 How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God? 45 "But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. This text supports the words of the author of Hebrews who said that "The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves." All of the law--ceremonial and the Big Ten pointed to the great saving act of Jesus Christ. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?" I will close for now. This last verse lends itself to a "whole 'nother" lengthy post, but we will save that for another day. God bless, Page |
