| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the obscure |
Bruce, Thank you for that witness and testimony. I'm utterly convinced you have it right, "right" being our Lord Jesus Christ. Got to go to an appointment, so don't have time to post more now. Later, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hey Ken, Yes, it's true that the ceremonial aspects of the Law of Moses were abolished as a feature (along with the civil and moral aspects) of the one UN-divided old covenant Law of Moses. But for Christians only! It was NOT abolished for Judaizers such as yourself. Thatís why YOU ñ but not I ñ must: 1. Not gather wood sticks in order to build a fire to roast your vege-weenies and brew your Postum on Sabbath while camping out with the Pathfinders at Yellowstone or Yosemite National Park. For, according to the Bible, if you do, the Pathfinders shall gather stones together and stone you to death outside your campground area. Nor have they any choice in the matter. For if the Pathfinders fail to carry out the conditions of the law, they will be as guilty as you! And so YOU SHALL DIE, Ken, as the Lord commanded Moses must be done. Numbers 15:33-36. 2. Not plant two different kinds of seed in your vineyard; ìif you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.î Deuteronomy 22:9. I would remind you, as well, Ken, that this is NOT a ceremonial law! 3. Not wear ìclothes of wool and linen woven together.î Deuteronomy 22:11. Have you checked your bedroom closet lately? Is sin crouching in there like a ravenous lion? 4. ìMake tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.î Deuteronomy 22:12. Better check that hall closet too, the one by the front door, the one where your raincoat is hanging. Any tassles? If not, hadn't you better call your tailor or seamstress immediately? THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN KEN AND JUDE ìNow we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law [such as yourself, Ken], so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law [got that, Ken? You WONíT be declared righteous! Maybe by yourself. But not by God!]; rather, though the law we become conscious of sin.î Romans 3:19-20. Thatís for you. I, on the other hand, have been freed in Christ from the bondage of the Law of Moses. I am under the Law of Jesus Christ only. Which brings me to the text we both have cited a number of times: Ephesians 2:14-16 NIV: WHAT ALONE CAN BRING KEN AND JUDE TOGETHER IN UNITY ìFor he himself is our peace, who has made the two [uncircumcised = Gentiles, and circumcision = Jews] one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by ABOLISHING IN HIS FLESH THE LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND REGULATIONS. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.î WHAT THE LORD HATH GIVEN THE LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY Donít you see, Ken? Christís purpose in abolishing the entire Law of Moses was to show you that behind it, behind the Law given by Christ to Moses on Sinai, was the Lawgiver, Christ himself. Hereís a little parable: On the cross, Christ was holding the Ten Commandments written by his own finger on two tablets of stone out in front of him. He was holding them out there for our Father in heaven to see. Not for him alone, but also for the whole world, yea the whole universe, to see. Meaning what? Meaning that he -- and he alone, certainly NOT you, Ken Clark, nor Jude nor Bruce nor Colleen -- had kept the law, fulfilled it. Perfectly. Right down to the last jot (i-dotting) and tittle (t-crossing). Then, having shown the universe that he and he alone had fulfilled the law, he cried, ìIt is finished!î And at that instant, just as he died, with truly supernatural power, he threw down the two tablets of stone and smashed them to smithereens on the rocks at the foot of the cross! Praise God! Now, Ken, why would he do such a thing? Because he liked to destroy better-than-any-museum-quality stonewear? Hardly! It was because the two tables of stone belonged to him, not to Moses, not to the Pharisees, not to our friends the Adventists, nor even to Ken Clark. It was because he -- alone in his naked and vulnerable humanity -- was a better-by-far repository for the law than any ark of the covenant in any tabernacle in any wilderness could ever be. It was because he was in the process of destroying the temple of Solomon and everthing in it -- INCLUDING THE STONY TEN COMMANDMENTS -- and building it up again and everything in it. And all in the space of three days. He finished the reconstruction job early Sunday morning and left behind him an empty tomb. It was because he had REPLACED the law with himself. Or, better, it was because he had REVEALED the eternal true law behind the Law of Moses. Which had always been ñ and which remains today and forever ñ himself and himself alone. Praise God! You can throw away your veil now, Ken, and behold Christ on the cross in all his vulnerable nakedness and pain and bleeding wounds -- with the Ten Commandments smashed to bits beneath his feet! Praise God! Praying for you, Ken, that you will someday see him with an unveiled face (2 Cor. 3:18), Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: You have really misunderstood the following text. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mt 5:18 I don't think Heaven & Earth have yet passed, or maybe I haven't been outside to see in a while. Let me go check...Nope it's still there. So I do not think the Law is of no effect either. Ken | ||
| jtree |
Sabbatarians argue that as long as heaven and earth last the law will continue. Their own argument proves that the law is not eternal; for Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away" (Luke 21:33). But Jesus did not say that the law would continue till heaven and earth had passed away. The idea is that heaven and earth would sooner pass away than one letter of the law fail in being fulfilled. "It is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail" (Luke 16:17). That is the idea. Not the length of time the law was to continue, but the certainty that it would not fail to be fulfilled. Christ said it would continue till fulfilled. This proves that it would be fulfilled and pass away some time. But when is the time? Christ plainly says, 'I am come to fulfill it.' Hence Paul rightly concludes that "Christ is the end of the law." "Fulfill: To complete; to fill up."óWebster. "To bring to a close, end, inish,complete." óGreenfield. Then, the law ended with Christ. "Heaven and earth shall sooner perish than one iota or one tittle of the law shall perish without attaining to itsend." óMacknight, Campbell, Doddridge. Exactly. Christ says He came to fulfill the law. Did he? Hear Him after his resurrection: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me" Luke 24:44. "And when they had fulfilled all that was written of Him, they took him down from the tree" Acts 13:29. The law was fulfilled and ended at the cross Was "nailed to the cross" (Col 2: 14-16). Adventists make a tremendous blunder when they confine "the law" in Matt. 5:17,18 to the Decalog. "The law" includes all the law of Moses. The "law and the prophets" is a term that applies to the entire Old Testament. All commentaries agree on this. But the Scriptural proof is abundant. "Witnessed by the law and the prophets" (Rom. 3:21). "The reading of the law and the prophets" (Acts 13:15). "This is the law and the prophets" (Matt 7:12). "All the prophets and the law" (Matt. 11:13). "All the law and the prophets" (Matt. 22:40). "They have Moses and the prophets.... If they hear not Moses and the prophets" (Luke 16:29,31). "Written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets . . . concerning Me" (Luke 24:44). "Written in the law and in the prophets" (Acts 24:14). "Him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write" (John 1:45). "Moses and the prophets" and "the law and the prophets" are the same thing. "The law" is defined as "Moses," "the law of Moses." And "the law and the prophets" reach their fulfillment in Christ. This is the whole Old Testament. The Adventist argument on Matt. 5: 17, 18 will make circumcision and all Moses' law binding to all time and eternity. This law was a "shadow" of Christ's atonement and redemptive blessings (Heb.10:1-3). Its sacrifices, blood, Passover, sin offerings, altars, etc., all pointed to Him.Its sanctuary pointed forward to his greater house; the church; its Sabbath to the sweet soul rest He gives. When Christ the substance came to earth, the shadowólawóvanished away. "The law and the prophets were until John" (Luke 16:16). His ministry was "the beginning of the gospel" (Mark 1 :1-3). When the law reached its fulfillment in Christ, it was not necessary to destroy it. Therefore he says, "I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill." To illustrate this point. Suppose that the legislature of Alabama had passed a law forbidding the killing of any game in the State for a period of ten years, and that this law had come into force January 1, 1989. On January 1, 2000 that law would die of itself, and sportsmen would not wait for the legislature to pass an act to abolish or destroy that law. Its v e r y construction and wording would teach all intelligent men that it could not continue in force longer than January 1, 2000. Just so it was with the law. "It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come" (Gal. 3:19). "To thy seed, which is Christ" (vs. 16). This so clearly teaches that the law was but a temporary institution, to continue in force only until the promised seedóChristóshould come, that there is no appeal from it. The coming of ChristóHis deathóis the date, then, when the law expired. There was no necessity to destroy it in order to make it null and void; for its limit ended when it was fulfilled in Christ, and of necessity it became dead. This shows the utter fallacy of the Seventh day Adventists' position. Christ fulfilled the law, and it passed away after having served its purpose. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances" (Eph. 2 :15). The law was a partition wall between the Jews and the Gentiles. Christ broke down this wall, by abolishing "the law of commandments," around which clustered all the ordinances and ceremonies of the Old Testament. This was done "that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (vs. 16). The date of the abolition of the law is placed at the cross. "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; and having spoiled principalities and powers, He made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" (Col. 2:14-16). That which was nailed to the cross included the Sabbath. The whole system ended at the cross. Since that, "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law" (Gal. 5:18). "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (vs. 4). This applies forcibly to all Saturday-keepers. "Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should brine forth fruit unto God" But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter" (Rom. 7:1-4,6). Here is a plain lesson. Who can misunderstand it? Paul uses the law of matrimony to teach the abolition of the Mosaic system. That first husband was "the law"; the wife was the churchóIsrael. But the first husband died; the law was abolished. It was "nailed to the cross," then buried. In recent years the Sabbatarians hunted its grave, and dug it up. All they found was the skeleton. This they stood up, but it fell down. So they have invented many props by which they expect to keep it standing. But by the eternal truth their props must fall and their idolized, decayed system of abolished "shadows"ó the lawóbe buried in the same grave in which Jesus laid it nearly 2000 years ago. They grope in the smoke of Sinai, while we stand in the light of Zion. O Adventist friend, forsake your system, and accept the truth, which will make you free. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Come on Ken, You can find a harder one for me than that one! You keep pitching big fat slow softballs right over the center of the plate! For example, you posted, "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mt 5:18." However, you forgot the best part -- the context! Let me quote it for you in its context: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets: I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." How true that is. For not one jot nor one tittle did pass away TILL ALL WAS FULFILLED. And all WAS fulfilled! Jesus fulfilled all there was to be fulfilled -- and that was ALL of it. For when Jesus was hanging on the cross he said, "It is finished!" Meaning that "all was fulfilled"! Not, as the Adventists have it -- "I, Jesus, am finished!" Poor little Jesus -- finished! Never! The Law of Moses was finsihed and replaced by the Law of Jesus. It was finished in the sense that Jesus Christ fulfilled it right down to the last jot and tittle and therefore "everything is accomplished." Everything! The whole enchilada. Including the Ten Commandments! Including the Fourth Commandment! Including the Sabbath Commandment! Time to get on board the gospel train, my friend! Not under the Law, but under grace, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, Don't forget to use Mt. 17 with verse 18: 17-"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all is fulfilled." The point of verse 17 seems to me to be saying that Jesus came to the earth for a reason, and that reason was not to destroy anything, not even a jot or tittle. Till when? "Till all is fullfilled." What do you think? What is your explanation? Now lets take a look at John 19: 28-30: 28- "After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scriptures might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. 29- Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put (it) upon hyssop, and put (it) to his mouth. 30- When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost." Verse 28 seems to tell me that Jesus acknowledged(on the cross) that all things WERE accomplished, so that scriptures might be fulfilled. Verse 30- Seems to very srongely indicate to me that since He, (Jesus), came to this earth to fulfil the law and the prophets, and Jesus, on the cross, acknowledged that all things were NOW accomplished, so that the scriptures might be fulfilled, He very simply sealed the price of our redemption with, "IT IS FINISHED." What does the entire Old Testament point forward to? The cross! Redemption! Our Redemption!! Your Redemption!! What does the New Testament Point backwards to? The FINISHED/FULFILLED work on the cross! FINISHED/FULFILLED Redemption!! Your FINISHED/FULFILLED Redemption!! Now when you read Mt. 5:18, PLEASE read Mt. 5:17 and John 19: 28, 29, 30 too. The not one jot or tittle passing (I don't think) applies after "all is FULFILLED/FINISHED! Why? Because it is FINISHED and Jesus said so and that is all the authority I need to believe it!!!!! What do you think? What is you explanation? Now, how about reading this to understand it and SIMPLY believe. Jesus 3 words, "It is FINISHED," sealed your REDEMPTION. Let your 3 words be, "YES, I BELIEVE," to seal your SALVATION? Would you please answer the above questions. If I don't understand, or my understanding is messed up, show me when I missed it. Your friend, Maryann | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi JTree Hear Him after his resurrection: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me" Luke 24:44. Does this not say "Law of Mases? I believe we are talking about the Ten Commandment Law of God. Are we not? Ken | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi MaryAnn: Don't forget to use Mt. 17 with verse 18: 17-"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. 18- For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all is fulfilled." The point of verse 17 seems to me to be saying that Jesus came to the earth for a reason, and that reason was not to destroy anything, not even a jot or tittle. Till when? "Till all is fullfilled." What do you think? What is your explanation? No explination needed your right he came not to destroy the Law. Ken | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi All: Here's a little something that we can check comprehension with... Weighing the Evidence - Which Day Is the Bible Sabbath? by David Boatwright & Doug Batchelor <deleted by the webmaster--it is against the law to post copyrighted materials without the permission of the copyright holder> | ||
| jtree |
Hi Ken... The Ten Commandments alone are never called "the law of the Lord" nor "the law of God." Sabbatarians constantly use these two terms, applying them to the Decalog alone. They are the only ones who keep God's law, as all others break the Sabbath, the seventh day. But now notice this fact: The word "law" occurs in the Bible over four hundred times, yet in not one single instance is the Decalog as a whole and alone called the law. It is never in a single instance called "the law of the Lord," or "the law of God." Of course, the Ten Commandments are a part of the law of God, but only a part, not the whole. Examine a few texts: Luke 2:22, "The days of her purification according to the law of Moses"; verse 23, "It is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb"; verse 24, it is "said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtle doves"; verse 27, "To do for him after the custom of the law." Here "the law," "the law of the Lord," and "the law of Moses," all mean the same thing, the law touching the birth of a son. Again, sacrifices, offerings, sabbaths, new moons, and feasts are all required "in the law of the Lord" (see 2 Cor. 31:3). Scores of texts like this could be cited, where "the law of the Lord" includes sacrifices, circumcision, feast days, and all the Jewish law. So the law of God is not simply the Decalog, but the whole law of Moses. In Neh. 8:1, 2, 3, 7, 8, 14, 18, they read "in the book of the law of Moses," "the law," "the book of the law," "in the book of the law of God," "the law which the Lord commanded by Moses," "the law of God." The law of God, then, included the whole law of Moses. No Sabbatarian, you do not keep "the law," "the law of God," or "the law of the Lord"; for if you did you would offer sacrifices, be circumcised, and live exactly like the Jews. So all your talk about "keeping the law" amounts to nothing, for you do not do it. No Sabbatarian does it. In your tempt to keep a part of that law you thereby bring yourself under obligations to "keep the whole law," as Paul argues in Gal. 5:3. But as you cannot keep the whole law, you bring yourself under the curse of the law, by constantly violating one part while attempting to keep another. This is the very point that Paul made against Judaizing legalists of his day (see Gal. 3:10). The person who keeps one precept of the law just because the law says so, thereby acknowledges that the law is binding on him. Then if he neglects some other part of the law, thereby becomes a transgressor of the very law he professes to keep. This is exactly what Sabbatarians do. They keep the Sabbath because the law says so and thereby become "debtors to do the whole law" (Gal. 5:3). Then they neglect many things in the same law, and so are under the condemnation of the law (Gal. 3:10). But we "are dead to the law," "not under the law," "but under grace"óthe New Testament. In His Name Jtree (Are you the fellow from the Adventist News Group?) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, After nearly 20 years, my Mom is back into SDAism. It's been about a year ago that she found 3ABN and has recorded and recorded and recorded so many of the Sabbath, IJ, etc etc by Doug Batchlor, Albrecht (sp?), Dwight Nelson and a few other names. She then audio records them on to cassettes which she puts in my lunch box or where ever I have a player. The deal is; if I listen to her stuff she'll listen to my stuff. It's really hard for me to listen to the "Bondage Makers" but that's about the only way to get her re-exposed to the simply gospel. There actually has been some interest, PRAISE GOD! I am so sorry that I don't have the Bible knowledge that I should. The reason for that was that I was raised on Arthur Maxwell's Bible Stories and EGW. My Christian growth was severely stunted and twisted from SDAism. In the dear friends that I have in SDAism, is the inability to see without WHITE COLORED glasses on and it really makes me sad. You sound so much like my friends. The freedom from bondage is there for you, Jesus gave His life for your freedom. Somehow, someway I can only hope you can understand that the 10 C can not be separated from the other laws. If my learned friends post's can't convince you of that, I can only assume that you haven't opened your heart and mind to the Holy Spirit's screaming's in your ears. Remember, no one here is advocating "license," it is "liberty," liberty in Jesus that we all love. When Jesus left, he left for us the "Helper"/"Holy Spirit", not the hard and cold Law. Read Mt. 17:1-8, the law and prophets vanished, leaving only one, Jesus. In His Father's own words; this is my Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, HEAR YE HIM. What did he say 5 chapters later in Matthew 22:36-40- 36-"Master, which (is) the greatest commandment in the law? 37- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord you God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38- This is the first and greatest commandment. 39- And the second (is) like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. 40- On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Now remember back to the law and the prophets of Mt. 17. You may say, soooooo. Now go to John 13 where Jesus is talking about His death and go on to verse 34,35- A new comandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35- By this shall all (men) know that ye are my diciples, if ye love one another." He doesn't say that we shall be known by what day we keep. Doesn't this sound remarkbly like Mt. 22:36-40? Now when this Pharisee came up to Jesus to trap/trick Him, what is the biggest beef they had with him over the previous months? His breaking of the sabbath, (4th commandment of the 10C), right? So when they asked Him what the greatest commandment in the LAW was, I be bettin' dollars to do-nuts that they were talking specifically about the 10C not the cerimonial laws that the SDAs claim were nailed to the cross. Now take all 3 mentionings of the commandments in Mt. 22:36, 38, 40 and you will find that all three are the very same Greek word #1785 in the Gk-Eng KJ interlinear NT. These are the 2 GREATEST commandments that all the law and the prophets hang on. Run up again to John 13:34. The very same Greek word #1785 for commandment is used and what does Jesus say? A NEW commandment I give unto you. What for? That you may be know as my diciples. If your company gives you a new car, do you keep the old one that was impossible to running? If you get a new set of false teeth, do you keep the old ones that rubbed blisters on your gums? (you wouldn't even want them for a spare!) If you get a new house, do you keep the old one? If your old dog dies and you get a new one, do you keep the old dead one around to yukky the air and make it green? Here is Jude's awesome statement: "But Christ not only bettered the Law of Moses by expanding and deepening it. He also bettered it by re-seating or re-establishing it within himself, that is, by making it come out of his New Testament mouth rather than his Old Testament finger." How much better can you do than to have a new commandment or new commandments straight from the mouth of Jesus, when His Father said straight from His mouth, "this is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased: HEAR YE HIM." So, hear ye Him. My only question for you on this post is: Are you sincere in your quest here or are you just wanting to argue for arguments sake? Please answer that question. Your friend, Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi again Ken, You were quick on the above post to me to say, "No explination needed your right he came not to destroy the Law." You forgot again about John 19:28-30. Could you still say that in the light that "it is finished?" Maryann | ||
| Bruce H |
My Adventist friends and Ken will accuse me of getting rid of the fourth commandment. They will say well if it was fulfilled then you can do whatever you want. But this is my understanding that the Bible clearly states that the Sabbath is a perpetual or everlasting commandment, it is here forever. Let us know look at the Hebrew word O-lawm or everlasting and see how many times it is used in the Torah. -------------------------------------------------- 05769 Mlwe `owlam {o-lawm'} or `olam {o-lawm'} from 05956; TWOT - 1631a; n m AV - ever 272, everlasting 63, old 22, perpetual 22, evermore 15, never 13, time 6, ancient 5, world 4, always 3, alway 2, long 2,more 2, never + 0408 2, misc 6; 439 1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world 1a) ancient time, long time (of past) 1b) (of future) 1b1) for ever, always 1b2) continuous existence, perpetual 1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity -------------------------------------------------- Know let us look at the Bible texts that say a commandment is everlasting or perpetual by way of the Covenants. -------------------------------------------------- NOAH COVENANT Ge 9:16 "The rainbow shall be in the cloud, and I will look on it to remember the everlasting (O-LAWM 5769) covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." So the Noah Covenant is everlasting and UNCONDITIONAL (It is not a commandment in the Book of Law). -------------------------------------------------- ABRAM COVENANT A - (ABRAHAM WHEN HE WAS 75 YRS OLD) Ge 13:15 "for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever (O-LAWM 5769). 16 "And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered. GE 15:1-18 6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.18 On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying: "To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates-- So the Abram (Abraham) Covenant was everlasting and UNCONDITIONAL (it is not a commandment in the Book of Law). -------------------------------------------------- ABRAHAMIC COVENANT B (HE WAS 99 YEARS OLD- 24 YRS AFTER ABRAM FIRST UNCONDITIONAL COVENANT). Ge 17:13 "He who is born in your house and he who is bought with your money must be circumcised, and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting (O-LAWM 5769) covenant. So the Abrahamic Covenant of circumcision is CONDITIONAL (must be circumcise and it is commandment #3 in the Book of the Law). -------------------------------------------------- SINAI COVENANT Ex 12:14,15 `So this day shall be to you a memorial; and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD throughout your generations. You shall keep it as a feast by an everlasting (O-LAWM 5769) ordinance. 15 `Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven from your houses. For whoever eats leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. Passover Sabbath forever (commandment #9 in the book of the Law). Ex 12:17 `So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting (O-LAWM 5769) ordinance. Passover Sabbath forever (commandment #10 in the book of the Law). Ex 29:9 And thou shalt gird them with girdles, Aaron and his sons, and put the bonnets on them: and the priest's office shall be theirs for a perpetual (O-LAWM 5769) statute: and thou shalt consecrate Aaron and his sons. Priesthood forever (commandment #101 in the book of the Law). Ex 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual (O-LAWM 5769) covenant. 17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever (O-LAWM 5769): for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed. 7th day Sabbath forever (commandment #31 and #32 in the Book of the Law and the 4th commandment in the decologue). Le 3:17 It shall be a perpetual (O-LAWM 5769) statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood. Eat no fat or blood forever (commandment #148 in the book of the Law). . Le 16:34 "This shall be an everlasting (O-LAWM 5769) statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year." And he did as the LORD commanded Moses. Forever (commandment #185 in the book of the Law). Nu 19:10 And he that gathereth the ashes of the heifer shall wash his clothes, and be unclean until the even: and it shall be unto the children of Israel, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among them, for a statute for ever (O-LAWM 5769). Forever (commandment #397 in the book of the Law). Nu 19:21 And it shall be a perpetual (O-LAWM 5769) statute unto them, that he that sprinkleth the water of separation shall wash his clothes; and he that toucheth the water of separation shall be unclean until even. Forever (commandment #399 in the book of the Law). There are a lot more I have put only these in to make a point. So the Sinai Covenant of the Law CONDITIONAL (It is all commandments in the Book of the Law). -------------------------------------------------- Now we see that our Adventist friends are correct. The Sabbath is Forever and perpetual, But so is circumcision, Passover, priesthood, washings, unclean things, etc. etc. You see all these things are perpetual because God did not intend them to go away. They all 613 commandments every jot or tittle till ALL is fulfilled. The question is How is it fulfilled, It is fulfilled when we accept Jesus Christ into our lives at that moment something happens. We die to the Law, Rom 7:4 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another--to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. Thus the Law in fullfilled in us only by Jesus Christ if we do not have him then the Old Covenant still stands. When we die, Christ raises up from the dead to life and we are a new creature Jesus then becomes our new Priest with new Laws, Heb 7:12,18 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, And a New Covenant, Heb 8:13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. And or Sabbath Rest Hebrews Chapter 4. Now the Old Conditional perpetual everlasting Siani Covenant is still there the Sabbath the Passover the Circumcision, It is all one big Law and as Paul say if you want to circumcise then put on the whole Law, so the Old Covenant, is there for those who do not accept the New Covenant, you have to have somthing to judge them by right. If you want to keep the Sabbath then put on the whole Law, if you want to keep the Passover keep the whole Law. You see the Law is still here and it is here for the purpose for which it was intended to condemn man to curse him to kill him. So let us uphold the Law for its purpose and let it stand for ever or until Christ is finished with it and let it condemn man today in the future as well as in the past. Bruce Heinrich bh | ||
| Colleentinker |
Bruce, what a great insight! The written law does exist for everyone until they accept Jesus into their hearts. The law is still doing what it was designed to do: point out our desperate sinfulness and make us realize our need for a Savior. What Jesus did in dying and rising again is foreveróand it's available to everyone. But until we accept Jesus' sacrifice and life for ourselves, they are not fulfilled in our lives. Jesus actually did the fulfilling 2000 years ago, but the requirements of the law on our individual lives are fulfilled when we accept Jesus. At that point we die to the law. Great point, Bruce! | ||
| BRUCE H |
Antinomianism (AN). Our Adventist friends are always accusing us of Antinomianism (AN). What does this term mean what are they accusing us of. Antinomianism comes from the combination of two Greek words, the first word is "Anti" which mean against or in opposition to, and the second word is Nomos, which most of us FAF's know, and it means Law. So the word means against or opposed to Law. Now let us put down the facts out to see who is really the ANist. Adventist - say FAF's are AN because we do not keep the Sabbath they way the Adventist do. They say we are against Gods command1s at Mt Siani (some say at creation) that we should keep the Seventh day. I feel that Adventist are the AN because they do not keep God"s command's. Adventist will say which commands are we not keeping. (Let me tell you something I was never taught. The words of Paul and the apostles and Jesus are commandments). 1 Cor 14:37 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. Now that we know that these words that we find in the New testament are commandments let us look at what the commandments are. New Covenant Commandment = Col 2:16 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days. Well they judge me because of what I eat and drink and because of my Day of worship which is every Day, they say I can not give all days of the week to him (My perpetual Sabbath). Here they are breaking 3 commandments. Her is another New Covenant Commandment that they break. Gal chapter 4 Gal 4:23-24 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. 24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Hagar. ------------ So what is the covenant at Mount Sinai (or Horeb). Deut 4:10-13 10 Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb (Mt Siani), when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.........13) And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. So the Covenant at Horeb or Mt Siani is the Ten Commandments ------------ Gal 4:25 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children-- NOW HERE IS THE COMMANDMENT. Gal 4:30 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman." So the Command is cast out the bondwoman. Well it says above she is Hagar which represents the Covenant at Mount Siani which is the Ten Commandments and all the Book of the Law, and it says we are to CAST OUT the Old Covenant as well as the son. And who is the son it is Ishmael who is the son of Abraham's WORKS as well as our WORKS. Know even the Adventist know that they do not get ride of the people and teachers in the Church who teach works and legalism. So I see it that it is Adventist who are the AN and not us. Here is another Commandment that they Break both in the Book of the Law and in the New Covenant and that is to Love your Neighbor as your self or as Jesus did. Do Adventist Love their fellow Christians and Catholic friends or do they say they are Babylon with 666 on their forheads and hands. Do they Love us even though we see the Sabbath differently then they do. So Let me Close with another New Testament Commandment that both FAF'ers and Adventist should Follow. ROMANS 14: 1-6 ACCEPT HIM WHOSE FAITH IS WEAK, WITHOUT PASSING JUDGMENT ON DISPUTABLE MATTERS. ONE MAN1S FAITH ALLOWS HIM TO EAT EVERYTHING, BUT ANOTHER MAN, WHOSE FAITH IS WEAK, EATS ONLY VEGETABLES. THE MAN WHO EATS EVERYTHING MUST NOT LOOK DOWN ON HIM WHO DOES NOT, AND THE MAN WHO DOES NOT EAT EVERYTHING MUST NOT CONDEMN THE MAN WHO DOES FOR GOD HAS ACCEPTED HIM. WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE SOMEONE ELSE1S SERVANT? TO HIS OWN MASTER HE STANDS OR FALLS. AND HE WILL STAND FOR THE LORD IS ABLE TO MAKE HIM STAND. ONE MAN CONSIDERS ONE DAY MORE SACRED THAN ANOTHER; ANOTHER MAN CONSIDERS EVERY DAY ALIKE. EACH ONE SHOULD BE FULLY CONVINCED IN HIS OWN MIND. HE WHO REGARDS ONE DAY AS SPECIAL, DOES SO TO THE LORD. HE WHO EATS MEAT, EATS TO THE LORD, FOR HE GIVES THANKS TO GOD. ROMANS 14: 13 THEREFORE LET US STOP PASSING JUDGMENT ON ONE ANOTHER. INSTEAD, MAKE UP YOUR MIND NOT TO PUT ANY STUMBLING BLOCK OR OBSTACLE IN YOUR BROTHER1S WAY. AS ONE WHO IS IN THE LORD Here are Two Great Commandments what do you think Ken Clark. Should we not stop and accept each other for we both Love the Lord right. I believe he will let you stand if he so desires. Do you believe He will let me stand. Why cant we be friends. BRUCE | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Bruce: Amen!!! Ken | ||
| Steve |
Amen, Bruce. Good stuff. Hey, Ken. An issue raised earlier that I feel you haven't addressed. Do you keep ALL the law? Why do you pick and choose, lifting one commandment above the others? If you, believing Ephesians to support this, that not one jot or tittle will pass, then why aren't you so "on fire" about circumcision? Or, sleeping in another bed while your wife has her monthly period (assuming you're married)? Or what about stoning for breaking the sabbath (as Jude so wonderfully points out above)? I know that when my son goes on Pathfinder outings they indeed do light a fire on the Sabbath. If I take you seriously, and really believed in the Sabbath the way God told Moses to keep it, I would HAVE TO stone my son to death. No ifs, ands, or buts. Are you suggesting that I stone my son to death? If you claim that I should keep the Sabbath the way it says in the Bible, then that is a logical conclusion that I MUST come to. I don't have a choice. Or do I? What about ALL the Law? Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Greetings friend Ken, You posted: ^^^^^^^^^^^ Hear Him after his resurrection: "These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the Psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44. Does this not say "Law of Moses"? I believe we are talking about the Ten Commandment Law of God. Are we not? ^^^^^^^^^^^ RESPONSE ONE: Actually, you are incorrect. The "Ten Commandment Law of God" was only a small part of the "Law of Moses," which includes Genesis, Exodus, Leveticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. Then you have to add to that all the other books -- except the Psalms -- of the Old Testament to get "The Law and the Prophets." Finally you add "The Psalms" -- to get all 39 books of the Jewish Scriptures, the Old Testament Bible in existence at Jesus' time. This is what Jesus was talking about, not just the Ten Commandments of Exodus 20. RESPONSE TWO: You mistakenly assume that because Jesus spoke these words AFTER his resurrection, that the Law was not "nailed to the cross," "abolished in his flesh," and replaced with Jesus Christ Himself in Person as God on earth. In fact, Jesus was making a point that is exactly the opposite of what you suggest: That the Law of Moses, as well as the Prophets and the Psalms, were indeed already fulfilled! That's why he could say after the fact, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day...." Then he bid them go "to all nations" and tell them exactly the opposite of what you're suggesting: That the last "jot and tittle" had already been fulfilled! RESPONSE THREE: Jesus on earth "among us" is God on earth "among us" - Immanuel. Everything God says or does on earth is a statement of law that supercedes everything stated before. This is what Christians mean by the New Covenant (Jesus Christ, his life, teachings, death, resurrection and ascension) replacing the Old. It's really all very simple. And life-changing! Something the Ten Commandments -- nor indeed all the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms -- cannot do! "The Gospel Train am acomin'. Get on board! Get on board! Bless you my friend, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi, Ken, again, You posted, "No explination needed. You're right. He came not to destroy the Law." Bzzzzzzt! Wrong answer! He said he came not to destroy the Law till AFTER all was fulfilled. The implication is that he DID come to destroy, or, to use Paul's word, "abolish" it. But he "abolished" it only in a very special sense: He destroyed the Law only as a SUBSTITUTE for himself -- Jesus Christ the Righteous God on Earth Among Us! As Bruce and Colleen have so rightly pointed out -- the Law is indeed not abolished or destroyed for those who don't accept Christ. For them it is still a schoolmaster to lead to Christ. It is still a shadow to point to him. It is still "a bundle of ordinances" that is against you -- so that you stand guilty and naked before the God of the universe, who is indeed Jesus Christ, and your judge. So which is it for you, Ken? Is it abolished and destroyed for you? If so, you are no longer under it, but under grace. If so, you are no longer in bondage to it's terrible rule. It is no longer the impossible burden. But if it hasn't been abolished and destroyed for you, Ken, then I would invite you here and now to accept Christ, for -- unlike the Law of Moses -- his yoke is easy and his burden is light! Bless you, my brother, Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: Bzzzzzzzt your wronger than I am. Just read the text, even my 7 year old can comprehend it. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:18 Even if you diden't believe this text to be correct heaven & earth have not passed, unless we're in a different dimension, ...I don't think so. If all the law is done away with...and we don't keep the Sabbath of God, Jesus, all the prophets etc. Why would these following texts be used in Revelation? And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17 Exactly who is being talked about here? I want to be among that crowd! Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:12 I believe I keep the Commandments of God. The same Commandments of God that Jesus and all the prophets kept. (notice the law of Moses isn't mentioned in Rev.14:12) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14 Boy I sure hope the tree of life has big juicy Vegeburgers growing on it. ; ) I'm really sorry we can't seem to get to level ground on this issue. I guess we will both agree that we disagree. Been nice knowing ya Ken |
