| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Dear buddy Ken, Love that text you keep posting: "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:18." For it keeps right on saying the exact opposite of what you say it's saying: When all is fulfilled, then shall EVERYTHING -- right down to the least jots and tittles -- shall pass from the Law of Moses! I'd even bet, if I were a wagering man, that your I'm-sure-delightful seven-year-old daughter COULD INDEED understand a text that says so -- as not long as she's imprinted and programmed otherwise. And I sure hope that's not the case with that precious child! For Jesus said, "Except you be converted and become as a little child you shall in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven" -- "which is within you!" More later. God bless, Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: Lets bring this definition down a few notches for your benefit. For verily I say unto you, The above means he is telling the crowd. Till heaven and earth pass, now he is saying when heaven and earth pass... you know are no longer here...get it? one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, basicly it's saying not even a period or the smallest line the crossing of a "T" is going to change from the Law. till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:18." which means when God returns with Jesus and all of his angels. If you think that all has been fulfilled then why aren't we at home with God right now? There is also a promise that follows this for people that don't obey God's ten commandments in the next text which I add for your amusement. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matt. 5:19 Don't you want to be in God's kingdom? Don't you want to be called great in God's kingdom? Ken | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi, Ken, my friend, Your post was interesting: ìEven if you didnít believe this text to be correct, heaven and earth have not passed, unless we're in a different dimension..... I don't think so. If all the law is done away with...and we don't keep the Sabbath Ö, why would these following texts be used in Revelation?î Iíll address your mistaken assumptions first and then answer your question. MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION ONE: That I donít believe the text to be correct. The truth: I do believe the text to be correct. MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION TWO: That I believe ìheaven and earthî have passed away. The truth: I believe ìheaven and earthî have not passed away. MISTAKEN ASSUMPTION THREE: That I think weíre in a different dimension. The truth: I donít believe that. Will answer your question next post. Till then, blessings, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Friend Ken again, Hereís that famous text as you posted it: ìAnd the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17.î Here's your question: ìExactly who is being talked about here?î And hereís my answer: ONE. The ìremnant of her seedî is a spiritual reality, meaning all who accept Jesus Christ alone as our substitute for keeping the Law of Moses and dying thereby. It is not a physical group of people who, merely by presuming to call themselves ìthe remnant,î are recognized by Jesus Christ the judge to actually be the remnant. And to call one's self a member of the remnant rather than waiting upon God to say that for one, is to flirt with blamspemy. For we are not to judge ourselves. That's God's job. TWO. ìThe commandments of Godî are the commands of our God Jesus spoken with his (Godís) own mouth on the Mount of Blessings, not the 613 commandments contained the Law of Moses, whose only function was to drive us to see our need for the ìGod with usî = Emanuel = Jesus Christ the Only Righteous Person who ever lived! THREE. ìThe testimony of Jesus Christî is the gospel spoken and lived out in the lives of those who are filled with the Holy Spirit. It is not a human being, certainly not Ellen G. White! Iíll get to more of your points next post. Till then, many more blessings to you, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Greetings, Brother Ken, You posted: ^^^^^^^^^^^ I want to be among that crowd! Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. Rev. 14:12. I believe I keep the Commandments of God. The same Commandments of God that Jesus and all the prophets kept. (Notice the Law of Moses isn't mentioned in Rev.14:12.) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Rev. 22:14 Boy, I sure hope the tree of life has big juicy vegeburgers growing on it. ; ) I'm really sorry we can't seem to get to level ground on this issue. I guess we will both agree that we disagree. ^^^^^^^^^^^ Ken: I want to be among that crowd! Jude: Iím already there! For Jesus said, ìThe kingdom of God is within (among) you.î Luke 17:20,21. And there are NOT two kingdoms of God or heaven, only one. PHRASE: ìthe commandments of God.î These are the commandments of Jesus as quoted throughout the New Testament. These are NOT the Ten Commandments. The context makes this inescapably clear, and there is no ìtextî without ìcontext.î PHRASE: ìthey that do his commandments.î This, again according to the context, refers to those who have the Holy Spirit within them and who are following Christís commandments. But nowhere in the New Testament does Christ include the Fourth Commandment of the Decalogue. And so Christ did not command us to keep the Sabbath. Ken: Boy, I sure hope the tree of life has big juicy vegeburgers growing on it. Jude: Your own prophet, Ellen G. White, says that the tree has only fruits growing on it ñ no vegeburgers. Sorry. She says further that the branches of the tree of life hang down to earth and Christians are privileged to partake of the fruit of the tree of life here and now. In this I certainly do agree with her, since the kingdom of heaven is among all true Christ followers. I indeed do taste those fruits every day of my life. And I can tell you first hand, Ken, there are NO VEGEBURGERS hanging on it. Praise God! Ken: I'm really sorry we can't seem to get to level ground on this issue. Jude: We are on ground level, and weíve been on ground level from the beginning. Not a bad place to be, if you think about it. More next post. Grace and peace, Jude | ||
| Steve |
Hi Ken, It is obvious that Jude is in full agreement with the scripture that you insist on using. But I think you've missed the point. The Law is to lead people to Christ. That is the plain message of much of the New Testament, especially Paul. No one is saying that there isn't any Law. But once you allow the law to lead you to Christ, the Law has accomplished it's purpose. By continually going back to the Law, you are actually falling from grace. Galatians 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Remember, the book of Galatians was supposed to be studied by Seventh-day Adventists (assuming you are one, as I am also) following the 1888 conference. But the people did not follow that counsel. Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Galatians 3:12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "He who practices them shall live by them." So what is it? The Law or Christ? One leads to the other. Or do you want to do what the SDA church did to me? That is, use the Gospel to lead me to the Law. We SDAs have had it backwards. We must use our great understanding of the Law to lead people to Christ. As Jude has so well pointed out, Christ FULFILLS the Law. That is why we must lead people to HIM. We should NEVER use Christ to lead people to the Law. In doing so, we are putting them at GREAT RISK -- the risk of them falling from grace (Gal. 5:4). Let's not lead people away from grace anymore. Let's lead them to Christ. Let's do what the Law was intended to do -- lead people to Him, not It. Let's not play spiritual Russian roulette, hoping that the Law is not offended, or that if it is, it is not unto death. Let's hope that we do not offend Him. Let's hope we do not offend His Holy Spirit. Let's be COMPLETE brothers in Christ. Not just step-brothers, but fully adopted into His family. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: Jude responded to me as follows: Here ís that famous text as you posted it: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17.î Here's your question: Exactly who is being talked about here? And here is Judes answer: ONE. The remnant of her seed is a spiritual reality, meaning all who accept Jesus Christ alone as our substitute for keeping the Law of Moses and dying thereby. It is not a physical group of people who, merely by presuming to call themselves ìthe remnant,î are recognized by Jesus Christ the judge to actually be the remnant. And to call one's self a member of the remnant rather than waiting upon God to say that for one, is to flirt with blamspemy. For we are not to judge ourselves. That's God's job. Ken Clark Responds: How in the world do you get commandments of Moses when it plainly says Commandments of God...Jude pay attention please! Again you get a big red X on your answer! Jude can't you get it that the Bibles talking about Gods and not Moses law. The two laws are not the same! Ken | ||
| jtree |
Ken used this Proof text. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Rev. 12:17 Ken do you know what John is talking about in Revelation? Let's look a little closer. Turn to 1 John 3:22-24. this is Johns terminology he uses in Rev. 12:17, And here is the Commands of Rev 12:17, John 14:15, "that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another" 1 John 3:24 Are you really doing His Commandments? Do you believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ? Do you love us? May I encourage you to also read John 15:10,12,17! John using the terminology "commandments of God" as seen in Rev 12:17 and 14:10, these passages do not refer to the Ten Commandments. If John was referring to the Ten Commandments he would have used the word "law" or (NOMOS). We all know here that the SDA church believe these verses teach that the SDA churhc is the only , "TRUE" "remnant" church. And that the "woman" represents the church. We also know here very well, that the term "Testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy" And the "Spirit of Prophecy" is believed by Adventist (as we all know here) means a last-day prophet giving a prophetic message. As you believe Ken, some of us here no longer by into that falseness. As you believe that this last day prophet is Ellen G. White (presuming your an Adventist), whose writings Adventist refer to as "The Spirit of Prophecy" or "The Testimonies". The SDA church accepts her writings as "an authoritative source of truth". For me to be an Adventist, fundamental belief #1. accept the Bible, which I already do that. From Genesis to Revelation. word for word. Belief #17 accept her writings as a "continuing and authoritative sourse of truth". Then if I did this, then I have TWO sources of truth. When the Bible says I have only one source of truth. How many sources do you really need Ken? And if you accept the Bible, then accept what is written within, and not add to or take away from. Ellen G. White was a false prophet: Colossians 2:18 "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by... taking his (her) stand on visions he (she) has seen inflated without cause by his (Ellen White's) fleshly mind" (NASB) | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Steve: I guess i'm greedy and will follow both Jesus & God's Law. Amen! Ken | ||
| Steve |
Ken, That's incredible. Paul says that the Law is contrary to the Gospel. HE says you can't have both. But I guess if you have allowed yourself to believe that you can have both. Well then, try to have it both ways. But I fear for your soul. I know, you don't fear for your soul. I allowed the SDA church to put my soul in jeopardy (notice I'm not putting the whole blame on the SDA church, I take responsibility for having believed it.) You are allowing that jeopardy in your life. Remember that in Jeopardy, you must put the answer in the form of a qustion. The Answer: Jesus. The Question: Do you want to believe in Jesus OR the Law? Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hello, Ken, You posted: ìBasically it's saying not even a period or the smallest line the crossing of a "T" is going to change from the Law till all be fulfilled. Matt. 5:18. Which means when God returns with Jesus and all of his angels.î CLAUSE: ìtill all be fulfilledÖîÖmeans when God returns with Jesus and all of his angels. Ken, this is the first time youíve even recognized the existence of the phrase, ìtill all be fulfilled,î much less given your interpretation of it. I see at last where youíre coming from: The SDA heresy that all is not fulfilled till the coming of Jesus. Ken, this happened at the cross! Jesus is sitting at the right hand of the Father in heaven above ñ not in the Holy Place (vestibule) waiting to go in to the place where our Father is sitting! How do you arrive at the conclusion that the fulfillment of the Law of Moses occurs at the Second Coming? I would like Ken Clarkís answer on that, not Ken Coxís. Or Doug Batchelorís. Or Dwight Nelsonís. Or Jan Marcussenís. Or Morrie Vendenís. But Ken Clarkís answer and Ken Clarkís alone. What an admission! The truth will out! Wow! By grace alone, by faith alone, by Christ alone, Jude | ||
| jtree |
Ken one thing in mind.. The 10 commandments are the Law of Moses Mk 7:9-10 For Moses said, "Honor your father and your mother" When you read the 10 commandments, you read Moses: 2 Corinthians 3:3,15 The 10 commandments are NEVER called "the law of the Lord" or "law of God" in distinction from the "law of Moses". If you have the verse, let us know!!! Those who despised Moses' Law were put to death (Heb 10:28) People were put to death for violating the Ten Commandments: Deut 13:10; 17:2,6; Ex 31:14 Law of Moses is the law given at Horeb (10 commandments): Malachi 4:4 Remember the law of Moses My servant, even the statutes and ordinances which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel. Law of Moses included everything God commanded: 1 Kings 2:3 God gave the law of Moses: Ezra 7:6,10 | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Ken, This is getting more and more fun, agree? You posted, "How in the world do you get commandments of Moses when it plainly says Commandments of God..." Ken, the commandments of Moses ARE the commandments of God. Christ-God wrote them with his own finger on two tables of stone at the top of Mt. Sinai. But later, at the top of the Mt. of Blessings, Christ-God re-stated them. But what the Lord giveth, the Lord taketh away. (Job.) We don't need the Law of God of Moses except to lead us to the Law of God of Jesus. And there IS a difference! Peace always, Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jtree: When did I say anything about E.G. White? I detect some sand in your shoe. ...I will admit she does make for some great reading though...You know "the lesser light pointing to the greater light". Her teachings on health seem to be right on too! Now a few words about your post. If I diden't love you guys that post here, do ya think I'd still be hanging arround here? If God the Father & God the Son are as one, don't you think their minds would work together? Do you really think Jesus came to do away with God's Ten Commandments? Don't you think if God changed any part of the 10 Commandments he would have made it crystal clear? Do you really believe from 1 text in the bible, that can be twisted to look like a Sunday meeting that now we shall worship the Lord on Sunday? Ken | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Ken, Ken: "Jude, can't you get it that the Bible's talking about God's and not Moses' law? The two laws are not the same!" Jude: While I agree that they are not exactly the same, they are both still statements of the one and only Law of God! Are you saying that the Law of Moses is not the Law of God in verity? It is an IMPERFECT statement of the Law of God, but it is the Law of God all the same. Jesus Christ is the PERFECT statement of the Law of God. When the Law of Jesus replaces the Law of Moses, all that's happening is that a superior restatement of the Law of God is occuring. This is what the book of Hebrews is trying to tell you, Ken. But for those who do not accept Jesus Christ's perfect RESTATEMENT of an earlier imperfect statement of God's law, yes, you indeed are still under the Law of Moses and you are not under grace. Not under the Law of Moses, but under grace, Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi all: Boy you guys are really putting some wear and tear on the old keyboard tonight. And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly. Deut. 9:10 So the ten commandments are the law of Moses? Did Moses just use God's finger to write them or what? Was God Moses's secretary? Am I missing something? Moses's law or God's law? Ken | ||
| Colleentinker |
You can't have it both ways: grace and works, or Grace and The Law. The Law (10 commandments) is works. We have to keep them. Grace is not our work; it's Christ-in-us at work. The New Covenant requires far more accountability than the 10 ever required. If we try to keep a foot in both camps, we are not trusting Jesus. We are not abandoning ourselves to believing in Him. As long as we hold on to certain requirements, we are holding onto achieving our own salvation. We are, in a sense, blaspheming Jesus and the Holy Spirit by insisting that Christ's work is not enough. The new birth is a completely new reality. Nothing looks the same. The whole idea of law and Sabbath and commandments looks completely different when we receive the Holy Spirit. Only when we are born again does the concept of Christ as the Living Law make sense. As long as Moses is read, a veil covers the heart. The truth is simply not perceptible | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Ken, The Law of Moses is the IMPERFECT and TEMPORARY statement of the Law of God written with the finger of Christ on the summit of the Mount of Sinai. The Law of Jesus is the PERFECT and FINAL statement of the Law of God spoken with the mouth of Christ on the summit of the Mount of Blessings. This is not only true, it is also beautiful symmetry. And that's why I'm under grace alone, not law, Jude | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Jude: So your saying that my Lord is an imperfect and changing God? The Law of Moses is the IMPERFECT and TEMPORARY statement of the Law of God written with the finger of Christ on the summit of the Mount of Sinai. For I am the LORD, I change not; Ken | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Ken, Are you one of these guys that gets all excited when he gets to the "RED LETTER" part of the Bible because it was Jeses' words? I choose to believe that from, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." to "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen." to be the INERRANT and INSPIRED word of God. That means Moses to John! When you say, let me read you something from the word of God, does that mean the whole Bible or only the "red letter"? Seriously, Ken you have a lot of un-answered questions here like how Mt.5: 17-18 tie into Jesus Himself PROCLAIMING that "It is finished" on the cross. He just fulfilled Mt. 5:17-18? What is it that you can't understand about that. Yes, even your 7 year old could understand that. You never did answer if you are really serious or just arguing for arguments sake. How about a "Ken Clark" answer to that? Shaking my head.......Maryann |
