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Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 10:45 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken,

I posted earlier:

"Now take all 3 mentionings of the commandments in Mt. 22:36, 38, 40 and you will find that all three are the very same Greek word #1785 in the Gk-Eng KJ interlinear NT. These are the 2 GREATEST commandments that all the law and the prophets hang on. Run up again to John 13:34. The very same Greek word #1785 for commandment is used and what does Jesus say? A NEW commandment I give unto you."

Now take your above verse 2John 1:6: "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it."

As usual, you forgot the context. Verse 5 says: "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment, unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."

Now if you go to Lev. 19:18, which is the 126th law of Moses, (the cerimonial law that SDAs say got nailed to the cross), it says: "Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the Lord."

Well that doesn't count now, does it? You know, since it is cerimonial and all.

Seriously, to me, what this is saying, when we as "born again believers" accept the NEW law provided for us in our saved condition, which is paraphrased; "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself," all those 613 laws of Moses were, as SDAs say, "nailed to the cross". And that includes all of them including the Sabbath commandment of Ex. 23:12 which is the 85th law of Moses, which says: "Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest: that thine ox and thine ass may rest, and the son of thy handmaid, and the stranger, may be refreshed."

Now, the law of Moses is for those who, as the Isralites, don't believe. Since, because of the acceptance and belief in Jesus Christ and His finished work, I have been taken out from under the thumb of the "tutor/taskmaster" and given the NEW commandment: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and soul and your neighbor as yourself." Ask a 7 year old why you would give them a new bicycle and they will probably tell you because the old one is no good, obsolete, broke or juked. So it stands to reason that if God gives a new commandment, the old one must be obsolete, now doesn't it?

By the way, back to your 2John 1:6 verse. The two words "commandment" and "commandments" in verse 6, and the "commandment" in verse 5 and also the "commandment" in verse 4 are all the same Greek word #1785. That again, is the same #1785 used in both John and Mt. when Jesus himself gave "BELIEVERS", a new commandment.

Would you please address these issues! You have been asked these same basic things by all of us and you still refuse to directly address them? Why?

Maryann
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken,
I have not yet read that verse, but I want to remind you: FACT (whether or you believe it, it remains a FACT not a theory or an opinion): Colossians 2:16 says that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH was a ìshadowî but the ìrealityî is Christ.

I'll be back later.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 12:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ann,

I'm in your corner. Don't let Ken sidetrack you with feints, dodges, bluffs, red herrings, booby traps and bamboozlings. You have Scripture behind you, and that's all you need, except, of course, for the Holy Spirit that is within you.

Remember, though, that "Our struggle is not against flesh and blood [e.g., Ken Clark], but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." Ephesians 6:12 NIV.

The point being that our job is not to put Ken down or "in his place" or even to win an argument. Our job is to witness to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

If Ken accepts the gospel, then, it is true, a great victory has been won. But even if he doesn't, we still have not lost the larger struggle. For we do not battle according the flesh (winning debates on "points"), but according to the spirit (winning by "agape love").

I understand from our webmaster that "a few thousand" people access this website every week. That's a pretty large audience. And there are honest-hearted SDAs in that vast audience. These are people who are not shut-eyed and plugged-eared.

But -- EXTREMELY IMPORTANT -- they are looking on to see HOW WE TREAT KEN!

This is where the battle is won or lost. Consequently, I have personally decided that I will strive always never to cast an aspersion, never return an insult, no matter how well deserved.

I know I haven't always lived up fully to my own boundary here, but I'm going to keep trying.

Bless you always, precious child of God,

Jude
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 12:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken,
Don't have my KJV handy, but I will get back to you later. Just got a couple more questions:
1. "Ceremonial Moses's laws nailed to the cross."
EXACTLY which laws are the ceremonial ones?

2. "We have had laws since Adam & Eve."
What LAWS were Adam and Eve given?
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 3:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great post, Ann! Don't be surprised if Ken doesn't answer.
Plain Patti
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 3:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, Ken and Bruce, but you have absolutely no biblical support for your dissecting the law in that manner. In fact, in the book of Hebrews it is made very clear that the law is one complete ball of wax.

Since I strongly object to the "cut and paste" method of using Scripture, I am posting an entire chapter from Hebrews. Blessed is he who perseveres to the end. :)

Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves.

The law is presented here in Hebrews 10 as a merely a shadow of the "good things to come." Surely we can agree that the "good things" that were yet to come when the law was given were Jesus Christ and His great salvation. Or, if you prefer KJV, the law "had a shadow of good things to come, not the very image of the things." Clearly this verse supports the main theme of the book of Hebrews: Jesus Christ is superior to anything before Him. He is the final and ultimate revelation of God to humans (Hebrews 1:1). Continuing....


For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.


What is the ultimate desired end of the law? To "make perfect those who draw near to worship." Certainly you are not going to tell us that the author of the Hebrews is speaking merely in terms of the sacrificial system here! Perfection cannot come of sacrificing. Even forgiveness of sin will not attain perfection for us; it merely puts us at a neutral stance with God. Perfection of character (even as your Father in heaven is perfect) comes of perfect compliance to all of God's commands. Yet, the author of the Hebrews is speaking here of perfection, and showing the weakness of the law in making sinful humans perfect. And this could in no way be interpreted as the "ceremonial law" only. Unless, of course, you would like to maintain that the ancient Israelites regarded the "ceremonial law"* in and of itself as sufficient for their perfection, totally apart from the "moral law."

Paul echoes this in Romans 3:
20 For no human being will be justified in his sight by works of the law, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall
(present continual tense) short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.


Continuing with Hebrews 10:
2 If it could, (That is, if the sacrifices could have perfected the Israelites) would they not have stopped being offered?

If the law could have truly and actually cleanse people from their sin, wouldn't the sacrificial system have continued?

For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.

If the sacrifices could have literally cleanse people from their sin, then after a single sacrifice, they would have been cleansed for good, and felt no subsequent tugging of conscience.

3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,

4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.


The sacrificial system did not take away sin; the best it could do is remind people of the very terrible sinfulness of sin and the horrible price that must be paid--the taking of an innocent life--for their trespasses on God's law.


5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.

7 Then I said, `Here I am--it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"


Although God ordained the sacrificial system with all of its laws, it was not "pleasing" to Him in that it could never set mankind right with God. Why? Because, at best, all the sacrificial system could do is to "pay" for sins committed with the blood of an innocent animal. Even if this actually served as a complete atonement for sin, which Hebrews says it did not, forgiveness of sin still does not merit our return to God's favor. Only a life of perfect obedience could reconcile humans and restore them to the presence of a holy God.


8 First he said, "Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them" (although the law required them to be made).

9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.


Jesus Christ came, not only to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of His chosen, but to do the will of God. To live a life of total and perfect compliance to all that God commands.


10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.


We have been made holy by Christ's fulfillment of God's will, a perfect life in our behalf and a death for all of our sin.


11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.

12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.


The right hand of a sovereign was the place of highest honor. The right hand of God is the place of highest honor in the universe. Jesus Christ is (since His ascension) the King of kings and Lord of lords. The chapter of Revelation 5 tells of the mighty celebration of Christ's return to heaven after His ascension. The kingdom of the earth is become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ. And He shall reign forever and ever.


13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool,

14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.


What a wonderful verse! By one sacrifice, He has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. We are not "merely" justified by Christ's death. We have been made perfect forever in Christ while we are living on this earth and working on our worldly human sanctification. So, while we work our hardest to please God and to love our neighbors as ourselves, we still rest in His promise, we still trust that the doing and dying of Christ was sufficient to perfect us forever.


15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:

16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."

17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.


This reminds me of the wedding vow: "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder." Except in this case, we change a couple of words: "What God has forgiven, let no one call unforgiveable." or "What God has forgotten, let no man remember." What a wonderful promise! When we believe in Jesus Christ, God regards us as being as perfectly spotless as Jesus Christ Himself.


19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus,


This is no "yes, but" theology. The writer of the Hebrews speaks of having confidence in the blood of Christ. Of approaching the throne of grace boldly. Why?


20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body,

21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful.


Because we are worthy? Because we are full of faith that works in love? NO. Because "He who promised is faithful." Our hope is not based upon our deeds, our words, our feelings, or our faith, but upon the steadfastness, mercy, integrity, and faithfulness of God.


24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds.


Because we believe that Christ, our great High Priest and spotless Lamb, is worthy, then we must treat our fellow man in the same way in which Christ treats us: He accepts us just as we are.


25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,


It goes without saying that if one appreciates the magnitude of the value of the gift that was given to us in Jesus Christ, one will not spit on that mercy by intentionally disgracing God and vilifying others. If we love Christ, we will try to show it by loving our neighbors as much as our limited and sinful humanity will allow.


27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.


Verse 28 makes reference to the stoning of people who did not abide by the law of Moses. Were people executed for not sacrificing? Were they executed for not circumcising their male offspring? No. They were executed only for violation of the Ten Commandments. Is there any indication or explanation in previous verses that all of a sudden the writer is speaking of the "Big Ten" and not of the ceremonial system? The answer again is, No. The law of Moses was a single law, made up of many ordinances and regulations as well as "moral" obligations to God and to man.


29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?


Quite a severe warning here to those who rebuff the Holy Spirit, who reject the grace of God in Jesus Christ. I cannot help but wonder if this warning includes all those who just do not quite believe that the doing and dying of Christ was sufficient for any sinful human. That, as the book of John says repeatedly, belief in the worthiness of Jesus Christ brings complete salvation.


30 For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people."

31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

32 Remember those earlier days after you had received the light, when you stood your ground in a great contest in the face of suffering.

33 Sometimes you were publicly exposed to insult and persecution; at other times you stood side by side with those who were so treated.

34 You sympathized with those in prison and joyfully accepted the confiscation of your property, because you knew that you yourselves had better and lasting possessions.

35 So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded.


Just as doubt in the sufficiency of the work of Christ on our behalf can merit the wrath of God, so confidence (trust, faith, belief in) Jesus Christ will be richly rewarded. If confidence in Jesus Christ will be rewarded, what does that say about those who believe that Christ's work is incomplete and unfinished? What kind of confidence can one have in a work that has yet to be completed?


36 You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.


Allow me to remind you just exactly what it means to do the will of God:

John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.

39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Continuing with Hebrews 10:


37 For in just a very little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay.

38 But my righteous one will live by faith. And if he shrinks back, I will not be pleased with him."


A very serious verse here: If we shrink back, if we say, Yes, Christ died for us, but...; if we maintain that it is heresy to be totally assured that Christ is worthy, then God will not be pleased with us. "It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." If God is "not pleased with us," then He will "spit us out of His mouth" as He showed the believers of Laodicea. And He is not pleased if we do not believe, trust, place our total confidence in the efficacy of the work of Christ to save us to the uttermost. Sobering thought. But the writer of the Hebrews ends the chapter with a positive:


39 But we are not of those who shrink back and are destroyed, but of those who believe and are saved.


The Gospel message in this book is the same as in the book of Romans: Believe and live; don't believe and reap the wrath of God. God has prepared a perfect salvation for us, but He will not treat the individuals kindly who refuse the gift (like the parable of the wedding guest). Feel free to try and keep the law in order to justify yourself. Feel free to say that the work of Christ was only good for our initial salvation, but that it will not keep us in His saving power as long as we live. Feel free to say, Not faith only, but faith that keeps the law. But you are speaking contrary to the book of Hebrews. This chapter makes it clear that we are not saved by law--any law--the ceremonial system or the "Big Ten," or any combination thereof. Salvation comes of faith "apart from the law." We must believe in the all-sufficiency of Jesus Christ, or we will fall into the hands of the living God in judgment, not in grace. There you have it: Moses or Christ, judgment or grace, works or faith, our own righteousness or the righteousness that Christ worked out for us. With some pretty stiff warnings from the writer of the Hebrews for us should we make the wrong choice.

Grace and peace,
Patti

* I challenge anyone to come up with any scriptural support for a dichotomy in the law in to "ceremonial" and "moral" law.
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok Ken,
I read it in the KJV, the NKJV and even the NIV, but I DON'T GET YOUR POINT!!! I do commend you however, on being such a great bible study tool! Other than your ocassional sarcasm, you can't begin to imagine the asset you are to this website.:-) Again, let's stick to the FACTS. For your benefit, I am reposting a portion of a previous post, which you still haven't commented on:

FACT, the word "sabbath" as used in Col 2:16, "sabbaton", can either mean the SEVENTH DAY of the week, or a WEEK, NEVER a yearly sabbath. And I quote from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:

4521 sabbaton { sabí-bat-on}
of Hebrew origin 7676; TDNT - 7:1,989; n n
AV - sabbath day 37, sabbath 22, week 9; 68
GK - 4879 { savbbaton }
1) the SEVENTH DAY of each week which was a sacred festival on which the Israelites were required to abstain from all work
1a) the institution of the sabbath, the law for keeping holy every SEVENTH DAY of the week
1b) a single sabbath, sabbath day
2) seven days, a week

The word "ordinance" as in Col 2:14, "dogma" means, and I quote again:

1378 dogma { dogí-mah}
from the base of 1380; TDNT - 2:230,178; n n
AV - decree 3, ordinance 2; 5
GK - 1504 { dovgma }
1) doctrine, decree, ordinance
1a) of public decrees
1b) of the Roman Senate
1c) of rulers
2) the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3) of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Were the ten commandments "rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment"? Of course they were! What was the "threatened judgement" of some one who broke the fourth commandment? Stoning. The other nine commandments as well had "threatened judgements."

Ken, If Paul Godís messenger wrote, not out of his own will but through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that the sabbath was a ìshadowî but the ìrealityî is Christ, then WHY DON'T YOU BELIEVE THE HOLY SPIRIT??!!î

I eagerly await your response.
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 6:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann again,

You may have to wait for a looong time for a response. You will not be refuted scripturally, for your argumet is scripturally irrefutable. You may, however, expect a charge against your flank. A text out of context, for example, that appears to contradict your argument.

But if you will go to the text -- Old Testament or New, doesn't matter which -- you will be able to see by the context that Ken will be mistaken yet again. And, don't worry, you will receive divine guidance how to proceed from that point.

I'm amazed at how well you, filled like St. Stephen with the Holy Spirit, are doing in this. Now, I quote Paul (Ephesians 6:13-17 NIV) for your further encouragement:

^^^^^^^^^^^
ìTherefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.î
^^^^^^^^^^^

And as far as I can tell, this is exactly what you are doing.

More and more and more blessings to you,

Jude
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all,
I just had a thought. We can ramble on about faith v. works and law v. grace, but how can we witness to people like Ken who see the New Covenant as being a "continuation" of the Ten Commandments? Those who see the 10 as being "eternal" because they were written in stone. Those who cannot comprehend why we see breaking nine of those commandments as sin, but breaking the 4th one as not a sin (although we know that there are other laws in the Law of Moses that if we break it would be considered sin). Those who see all ten always standing together as a unit, and are unable to seperate the 4th from the others. Those who are "blind" to the fact that ALL the sabbaths were "shadows."

I know I had this same problem at first. How do we help this type of person see the FACTS? Can anyone shed some light on this one?
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jude for the encouragement.

Ann
jtree
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 7:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken says>Ten Commandments Law of God still in effect!

The Ten Commandments Are A "Covenant"

The Scriptures clearly and consistently call the Ten Commandments a "covenant" and treat them as a distinct and separate covenant.

So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone. Deut. 4:13

When I went up into the mountains to receive the tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you...and the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone written with the finger of God...the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, even the tablets of the covenant. Deut. 9:9-11

Then the Lord said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets THE WORDS OF THE COVENANT- -the Ten Commandments. Ex 34:27,28.

How can anyone read these verses and be honest with the words used and then deny that the Ten Commandments were the very "words" of a distinct and specific covenant?

Ceremonial Moses's laws nailed to the cross.

Sabbath is ceremonial, so your right Ken,Ceremonial law's were nailed to the cross nailed to the cross.


Ken quoted "And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it. 2John 1:6

What was that Ken? May I ask? 1 John 2:7 Dear FRIENDs, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard.
1 John 2:7

The Biblical command to lvoe was old See Lev 19:18 and Matt 22:39-40, But it's newness is ness in:
1. The New and dramatic illustration of divine love on the cross
2. Christ's exposition of the Old Testiment law (Matt 5) which seemed new to Christ's listeners.
3. The daily experienc of believers as they grow in lvoe for each other.


We have had laws since Adam & Eve. It's your choice if you
love God you automatically will try to please & obey Him.

Yes we have, the law of gravity and the law of revolution.

But...The Old Testament Scriptures always state that the covenant written on the Tablets of Stone was made only with Israel at Sinai.

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and WITH ISRAEL. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. Ex 34:27,28

When Moses refreshed Israel's mind concerning their covenant relationship with God, he specifically says that the covenant (Ten Commandments) was given at Horeb. This is clear in the following text:

The Lord our God made a covenant [Remember the covenant is the Ten Commandments or Tablets of Stone] with us at Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers (such as Adam and Eve), but with us, with all of us alive here today. Deut. 5:2,3

Each of the commandments written on the Tablets of the Covenant stands entirely on their own merit when considered individually and independently of their covenant status. While some of the commandments remain in force exactly as they were given at Sinai, some of them are changed and raised to a higher level. While some are dropped, or at least totally spiritualized, others are redefined and enlarged. We believe that our Lord Jesus Christ has every right to make all of these changes. We respect Moses and acknowledge his greatness but we love Jesus Christ and believe
that He is far greater than Moses. The Tablets of Stone were indeed the highest moral code ever given up to that point in time. But the Sermon on the Mount is a much higher and more spiritual moral code than the Tables of Stone.

Standing on the Rock and not on the Stone.

In His Name,

Joshua
Ann L.
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 7:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Way to go Jtree!
I particularly like the last paragraph, "Each of the commandments written on the Tablets of the Covenant stands entirely on their own merit when considered individually and independently of their covenant status." I believe you responded to my post without even reading it!

The Holy Spirit really moves in "mysterious" ways!
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 8:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plain Patti,

I printed out and carefully read, highlighted and annotated your post beginning, "Sorry, Ken and Bruce, but you have absolutely no biblical support for dissecting the law in that manner."

And I think you did a good job of exegesis. I would only pick one major bone with you. I think Hebrews 10:29 refers back to 10:26.

Verse 10:26 clearly refers to those who "deliberately keep on sinning" after having received the knowledge of the truth, and therefore "no sdacrifice for sins is left."

Verse 10:29 appears to be a continuation of that theme, and not, as you seem to have put it, "to those who rebuff the Holy Spirit, who reject the grace of God." For you commented, "I cannot help but wonder if this warning includes all those who just do not quite believe that the doing and dying of Christ was sufficient for any sinful human."

I don't really agree with that. I think the writer of Hebrews is here continuing to talk about those who "deliberately keep on sinning" after they have "received the knowledge of the truth."

These are the goats mixed in with the sheep. These are the weeds growing among the wheat until the harvest separates them, binds them into bundles, and burns them. These are hypocritical Christians, "cheap grace" Christians, and not SDAs who just can't see AD 30 by the reason that AD 1844 keeps getting in the way.

So, if I'm right, let's ease up on people like Ken, okay? OUR deliberate sinning, if we already know and accept grace, is infinitely worse than that of those who are blind and deaf.

Now, as to Bruce, I think you misunderstand him. At least as far as I know him, I believe Bruce to have creative insights into Scripture that border on the genius level. I learn from him all the time. He steeps himself in the Holy Spirit and is rewarded by inspirations that I personally have found marvelous.

For example, his word study of "mystery" -- in good, as opposed to evil, context -- was stunning to me in that in the New Testament it ALWAYS and EXCLUSIVELY refers to Jesus Christ!

And it is typical for me that I always learn a great deal from him, both on and off the website.

And I would be the last to argue that Bruce is claiming any "dichotomy in the law" dividing "ceremonial" from "moral." Any such suggestion is just ludicrous!

In fact, Bruce uses a reference book containing all 613 specific laws of the Law-of-Moses "bundle" or code of ordinances.

I can't speak for Ken, for I agree with you that he does indeed mistakenly dissect the Law of Moses improperly into "ceremonial" and "moral" parts. I believe that there are "ceremonial" and "moral" ASPECTS which we can determine by industrious inspection and uncommon sense. And from my interaction with Ken, I have reason to think that at this point in his experience he is utterly incapable of doing so.

But Bruce is another matter entirely. The way I see his interaction with Ken, he is "playing ball" with him. Ken pitches a fastball and Bruce hits it out of the park. Ken pitches a curveball and Bruce hits it out of the park. Ken pitches a changeup and Gruce hits it out of the park.

And the fact that Ken may be under the illusion that he has thrown three strikeout pitches in a row at Bruce, doesn't mean the ball isn't out in the stadium parking lot somewhere.

And that reality should be clearly visible to the 3,000 or so "fans" of this website who don't talk, but who DO observe.

Patti, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with Bruce's method! If anything, it is more personal than yours. There is nothing wrong with your method either. But let's not sell Bruce short, okay?

In Allenette's immortal words, "Meant friendly,"

Jude
Ken Clark
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ann L.

Ann Wrote

"I have not yet read that verse, but I want to remind you:
FACT (whether or you believe it, it remains a FACT not a
theory or an opinion): "
Colossians 2:16 says that the SEVENTH DAY SABBATH was a
shadow but the reality is Christ

Ken Wrote

Yeah Right...a fact what do you have to back it up with.

by the way my Bibles text reads as follows:

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the
sabbath days: Col. 2:16

I don't see where it says 7th day sabbath

Which Bible do you read that says these sabbaths are the
7th day Sabbath?

You need to read & comprehend Lev. Chapter 23, it tells
all about these sabbath days.

These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim
to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire
unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a
sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
Lev. 23:37 KJV
Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts,
and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill
offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. Lev. 23:38 KJV

Notice beside the sabbaths of the LORD...


Can anybody tell me the difference between the
following words:

sabbaton

shabbath

I would appreciate your input!

Also an interesting tidbit. The 1987 version of Webster's
Dictionary defines sabbath as follows

Sab€bath seventh day of week: Sunday: Lord's Day
Where do they get this definition? Not from the Bible.

Ken
Colleentinker
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 10:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a great discussion! I have to address one of jtree's statements, though. He said, essentially, that some commandments are retained in force, some are spiritualized, and some are dropped altogether.

I believe all the commandments have been handled as a unified group. ALL are nailed to the cross. Jesus fulfilled them all. God has established residence in his New Covenant templeóthe hearts of Christ-followersóand his presnece is the Living Law. We aren't shuffling and re-interpreting the 10 commandments; we are living in an entirely new reality.

Hebrews says that where there is a change in the priesthood (Jesus, from the tribe of Judah, not the priestly Levites, is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron) there is a change in the law. (Heb. 7:12)

There has been, literally, a change in the law. The 10 commandments were for Israel and were temporaryóuntil the Seed would come. (Gal. 3) The new law is the living, responsive Holy Spirit who instructs us on a moment-by-moment basis and expects far more integrity and congruity from us than the written law could ever exact.

Of course the Holy Spirit expects us to honor God, have no other gods, honor our parents, marriages, etc. But He will instruct and expect not just those behaviors outlined in the TenóHe will prompt us to have even pure motives and thoughts.

Yes, every one of the Ten has been nailed to the cross and replaced with the living Christ in us. And the most amazing, mysterious, glorious change in the law is that we are now priveleged to live as one with God. We are always, every day, living in rest with him. That rest is what makes the expanded law a blessing and not a burden. If the written law had demanded what the Holy Spirit demands, people would probably risk their sanity because of guilt and failure.

Living in rest, however, means that the new, expanded, more "demanding" law includes the One who kept it perfectly and now keeps it through us. Jesus himself keeps the law in us. The more we rest in him and let him lead, the more exciting and surprising our lives are. We begin to see ourselves making decisions, saying things, and responding in ways that are new to us. We actually can see that the Holy Spirit is at work in us!

Our Sabbath rest is a Person. It's a relationship of love with the God of the universe who is transforming us into his likeness!

Oh, yesóall Ten of the stone commandments were nailed to the cross. What we have in their place is a living soul, quickened by the Holy Spirit and one with God. We have God himself prompting and changing us continuously.

The new law is a heart of loveóthe heart of our Savior embracing and changing us.

To live in the New Covenant is to be cherished. It is to be challenged and safe and free. It is to live in love.
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken

I can see that you Love your Sabbath.

Then do that day to the Lord, give him all you
have, and show that you Love Gods Law, by not
condeming His servants.

Here is somthing I think you will like.

SABBATH S-ABBA-TH ABBA = Father.

----Sab€bath seventh day of week: Sunday: Lord's
Day Where do they get this definition? Not from
the Bible.--------

By the way they are using the Greek word for
sunday Look at your bible in Greek when it says
first day of the week or sunday, look at what the
Greek word say. You are mixing up the Greek with
the Hebrew the Hebrew word is Shabat, I made this
mistake one time.

Bruce Heinrich

B
Bruce H
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2000 - 11:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ken

We can go on all day about the Law.

Titus 3:9 But avoid Foolish disputes, genealoies,
contentions, and striving about the LAW; for they
are UNPROFITABLE and USELESS.

Tell us about your realtionship with Jesus your
savior.

Bruce Heinrich
jtree
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 - 3:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabbath-Keeping

Lets everyone here investigate exactly what Seventh-day Adventism teaches about the Sabbath.

Following is a breakdown of these teachings - taken from their own publications.

1.WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
The Sabbath is eternally binding upon men from creation.

Seventh-day Adventism says the Sabbath was made for mankind in general and was given to Adam in the Garden of Eden. Sabbath-keeping, therefore, is a sign of loyalty to God, the Creator.

God instituted the Sabbath in Eden; and so long as the fact that He is our Creator continues to be a
reason why we should worship Him, so long the Sabbath will continue as its sign and memorial. ...The keeping of the Sabbath is a sign of loyalty to the true God. The Great Controversy, p. 386).

The Sabbath was kept by Adam in his innocence in holy Eden; by Adam, fallen yet repentant, when he
was driven from his happy estate. It was kept by all the patriarchs, from Abel to righteous Noah, to Abraham, to Jacob. GC p. 398.

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

1. The seventh day, though mentioned in Gen. 2:2-3, We find no command to keep a Sabbath. The Sabbath was first mentioned in Exodus 16 and was not given to anyone until it was given to Israel in the wilderness (Ne. 9:13-14).

2. The sabbath was given, not to mankind in general, but to Israel alone as a special covenant sign between her and God (Ex. 31:13,17).

3. Ellen White added to Scripture in teaching that Adam and the patriarchs kept the sabbath. The Bible says absolutely nothing about this. In fact, it cannot be true. If the sabbath had been kept by mankind in general from the creation, it could not have been given as a special sign to Israel.


2. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
The Sabbath continues to be binding upon N.T. believers.

..from this it is evident that all Ten Commandments are binding in the Christian dispensation, and that Christ had no thought of changing any of them. One of these commands is the observance of the seventh day as the Sabbath... (Bible Footlights, p. 37).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

1. The N.T. is the only infallible guide of what part of the Mosaic law continues to be important for the church age believer. The N.T. plainly teaches the believer today is not bound to the sabbath law! Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Col. 2:16-17

The Plural "Sabbaton" in Col 2:16 refers to 7th Day Sabbath.

Exodus 20:8 (in the Septuagint) Remember the sabbath day "Sabbaton"

Leviticus 23:37-38 (in the Septuagint) besides those of the sabbaths of the Lord "Sabbaton"

Matthew 28:1 Now after the Sabbath "Sabbaton"

Luke 4:16 He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath "Sabbaton"


2. According to the N.T. epistles, the sabbath question has no relevance to the church. In all the instruction God gave the churches in the epistles, there is only one mention of the sabbath-- Col. 2:16--and that one mention was
only to show that it is not binding upon N.T. believers. Is it not strange, in light of the fact that the N.T. epistles mention the sabbath only once and that to show it is not now binding, that Seventh-day Adventism makes such a big
deal over sabbath observance? Surely, the SDA denomination has a very different understanding of the sabbath and of the things of God than did the Apostles! The Apostles, in their writings, placed absolutely no importance on the sabbath. The SDA, in their writings, place great importance upon it.

3. The sabbath was a type of salvation. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his He. 4:9,10.
Adventists admit that the O.T. types and shadows, such as the Levitical offerings, were fulfilled in the life and death of the Lord Jesus Christ, yet, they maintain that the weekly sabbath was not a type which was fulfilled by Christ. In Hebrews 4, though, the sabbath is presented as a type of salvation.

As God rested on the seventh day from His work of creation, the true believer today rests in the completed work of the Lord Jesus Christ. In order to enter into God's rest, a person must quietly accept God's work. He must cease from his own work. Salvation is God's gift.


3. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
The Sabbath law has been changed, with the harsh demands of the Mosaic system no longer binding.

Adventists do not keep the O.T. conditions of the sabbath, but they claim they do not have to because the conditions pertaining to the sabbath have changed in this age. One of Ellen White's visions is offered as proof for this.

In the most holy place she saw the ark that contains the law, and was amazed to note that `the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name...' There was also shown her the change of the Sabbath, the significance of Sabbath observance... (Messenger to the Remnant, p. 34).

The institutions that God has established are for the benefit of mankind. ...The law of Ten
Commandments, of which the Sabbath forms a part, God gave to His people as a blessing... (, The Desire of Ages, pp. 245-246).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

1. The sabbath law was severe and rigid and was not given to be a blessing.
(1) No work, Ex. 20:10; 31:14-15;
(2) Bear no burden, Jer. 17:21;
(3) light no fire, Exodus. 35:3. Only in warm climates such as that in Israel could this be
reasonably observed. The law of the sabbath was so severe that God had an Israelite stoned merely for gathering sticks to build a fire because by this he broke the sabbath law (Numbers. 15:32-36). The Apostle Peter had lived under the law all his life until he was converted in his adult years, and he called it a yoke of bondage which neither our
fathers nor we were able to bear Acts. 15:10.

James. 2:10 informs us that the law cannot be broken. Thus, anyone desiring to observe the sabbath of the Mosaic law must observe it exactly as God demanded in the Old Testament. And such a one must observe every other detail of the law.

The O.T. law is not the Christian's standard; Christ is!

By reducing the requirements of the sabbath law, the SDA church destroys the power of the Mosaic law to reveal the need for the Savior. The Mosaic law was never intended as a way of life for the justified man--knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man... 1 Timothy. 1:9. It was intended solely as a schoolmaster to bring the
sinner to the Savior and to His salvation.

But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards
be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. Galatians 3:23-25

2. There is no Bible authority for a change in the sabbath law. The Lord Jesus did not change the law. He simply condemned the traditions of the Pharisees which had been added to the law. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled
Mt. 5:17-18.

3. This is another instance of Ellen White adding to the inspired revelation. Mrs. White saw the sabbath law as more important than all others; it "shone above them all." The inspired Apostles saw no importance in it at all for the N.T. believer.


4. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
Since Jesus and the Apostles kept the Sabbath, Christians should today.

The example of Jesus is clear and consistent. His custom was a Sabbath-keeping custom. ... Yet in spite of this, we find a strange situation in the world today. For though we have the same Christ as our example, the same Bible as our guide,, yet we find two Sabbath days kept by Christians... (George Vandeman, Planet in Rebellion, p. 277).

Christ's followers were careful to keep the Sabbath on which their buried Lord rested from His death struggle with sin (New Life Bible Correspondence Course, Guide #16).


WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

1. Jesus kept the Sabbath because He was born under the law to fulfill the demands of the law. But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons Ga. 4:4-5. The Lord Jesus willingly made Himself a servant, born under the Mosaic law, that He might redeem sinners from the curse and bondage of the law into the eternal liberty of sonship. In Mt. 5:17-20 Jesus expounded the demands of the law,
which is perfection. Christ did indeed come not to destroy the law, but to fulfill it, which He did. Jesus was under the law that believers might not be.

2. It cannot be proven that the Apostle Paul and the early churches observed the Sabbath. Adventists teach this as fact, but it is mere conjecture. It is true that Paul met in the synagogues on the Sabbath in order to preach to the Jews assembled there, but this does not mean that he consciously observed the sabbath law of the Mosaic system.
Rather, Paul testified concerning the sabbath question, Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or the sabbath days Col. 2:16.

Thus, the Apostle Paul taught that sabbath keeping was not binding upon N.T. believers. To observe or not to observe holy days is a matter of individual Christian liberty. One man (Adventist) esteemeth one day above another:
another(New Testiment Christians) esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind Romans 14:5. Surely the inspired Apostle would not have acted contrary to his own teaching.

According to the Bible, the reason Paul visited synagogues on the sabbath was to preach the Gospel. Paul's burden after conversion was to preach Christ. He was burdened for his own people, the Jews. So he went where the Jews were to preach Christ to them. Consider Acts. 13:14-44; 16:13-14; 17:2-4; 18:4. And Paul, as his manner was, went
in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures."

The fact that Paul went to synagogues on sabbaths does not prove he consciously kept the sabbath law any more than his going to the feasts in Jerusalem proves he believed himself bound to the laws of the feasts. He felt bound to none of these things.

He was free in Christ.
Yet he went as a soul winner to witness to his kinsmen of the freedom in Christ which he himself enjoyed.


5. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:

The change of the day of worship from Sabbath to Sunday was done by Rome in the fourth century.

Adventists contend that the law of the sabbath was kept by Christians until Constantine, the Emperor of Rome, required all men to observe Sunday. Adventist leaders see Constantine as a type of the future Antichrist, whom they believe will make Sunday worship a law binding upon all men.

Constantine was the Roman emperor. He was a sun worshiper, but he was also a keen politician. He wanted to please everybody. It was while still a pagan that he decreed that all government offices should be closed upon the first day of the week--`the venerable day of the sun.'

"The church, which had now been established in Rome, had been quick to see the temporal advantage
of compromise with paganism . so it was that after a few brief years, when Sunday had gained a
foothold, the Roman church in the Council of Laodicea set aside the clear command of God and
decreed the change from the seventh to the first day of the week" (Planet in Rebellion, p. 290).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

There is much evidence in the Bible and in other historical sources that the early Christians, from the days of the Apostles, met and worshiped on the first day, rather than on the sabbath.
Since those days the vast majority of Christians have always met to worship on the Lord's day. They do this in honor of the resurrection of their Savior. Christ was in the tomb during the sabbath, and rose as the firstborn from the dead on the first day. The sabbath signifies the last day of the old creation (Ge. 2:2). Sunday has became the
first day of the new creation.


6. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
The church has changed the Sabbath to Sunday without Bible authority.

Christians of past generations observed the Sunday, supposing that in so doing they were keeping the Bible Sabbath; and there are now true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion, who honestly believe that Sunday is the Sabbath of divine appointment (Ellen White, The Great Controversy, p. 394).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

Sunday is not the Sabbath; it is not even a holy day. Christians do not observe a first day sabbath in assembling on Sunday. The N.T. believer, redeemed from the obligations of the Mosaic law, is free to observe or not to observe holy days as he pleases. (Of course no Christian should forsake the assembly, but every Christian is free to honor
or not to honor days.) Romans. 14:1-13 and Col. 2:16 clearly state that believers are not to be judged in respect to holy days. The Galatians' respect of holy days caused the Apostle Paul to fear that they were not even saved! Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you
labour in vain. ... I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you Galatians. 4:10-11,20.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? . One man esteemeth one day above another:
another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind (Ro. 14:4-5).

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (Col. 2:16).


7. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
Adventism is fulfilling prophecy by proclaiming the Sabbath.

Adventists believe that God has raised them up as the last days remnant church to proclaim the truth of the Sabbath as a test for mankind. This work will culminate in the Great Tribulation, they believe, and in the second coming of Christ. For Bible proof of this idea, the Adventists point to four major passages: Is. 58:12-14; Mt. 24:14;
Re. 14:6-12; and Re. 12:17.

From the very first, Seventh-day Adventists have boldly proclaimed the three messages of Revelation 14:6-12 as God's last appeal to sinners to accept Christ, and have humbly believed their movement to be the one here designated as the 'remnant.' No other religious body is proclaiming this composite message, and none other meets the specifications ...

Adventists have recovered these gems of truth and restored them to their rightful setting ... Examples ... the precious Sabbath truth, as opposed to the papal Sunday. Particularly is the Sabbath commandment to be restored to its rightful place in the ten-commandment Law of God. Isaiah declared that God's remnant people would repair `the breach' made in God's law when the papacy tore the fourth commandment out of the heart of the decalog...
(Prophetic Guidance Correspondence Course, p. 46).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

1. The verses used by the SDA to support this idea in no way do so. Neither the Old nor the New Testament speaks of a religious group which is to rise in the last days prior to the second coming of Christ to proclaim the sabbath. Though Re. 14:12 does say the Great Tribulation remnant will keep the commandments of God, absolutely nothing is said of a special emphasis upon the sabbath. The interpretation pushed upon this verse by
Adventist teachers illustrates their habit of twisting Scripture.

Again, Is. 56:1-7 and 58:1-13, which are used by Adventists to support the doctrine of a sabbath-preaching last days remnant church, say absolutely nothing about such a thing. In these verses God is simply admonishing the nation Israel to keep her sabbaths, just as He has throughout Israel's history. Isaiah 56 and 58 speak of national Israel, not the church of this present age. Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and THE HOUSE OF JACOB their sins (Is. 58:1). That Isaiah would point Israel to the sabbath law agrees with other passages which teach that the sabbath was given to national Israel as a special covenant sign (Is. 66:20-13). Israel will always keep her covenant sabbath.

The church, though, is not the nation Israel, and the church does not fulfill Israel's prophecies in Isaiah. There are three distinct people spoken of in the Bible--Israel, the Gentiles, and the Church. The Apostle Paul recognized this
when he wrote, Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God 1 Co. 10:32. God's plan for national Israel, as foretold in the O.T., will yet be literally fulfilled in national Israel, not in the church.

2. The real source of this idea is Ellen White's visions, not in the Bible.

...seven months after the Whites commenced keeping and teaching the Sabbath, the Lord gave a vision stressing its importance . in this vision Mrs. White seemed to be transported to heaven and conducted through the heavenly sanctuary.

In the most holy place she saw the ark that contains the law, and was amazed to note that `the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all; for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God's holy name. THE HOLY SABBATH LOOKED GLORIOUS--A HALO OF GLORY WAS ALL AROUND IT...'

THERE WAS ALSO SHOWN HER THE CHANGE OF THE SABBATH, THE SIGNIFICANCE OF SABBATH OBSERVANCE, THE WORK BEFORE THEM IN PROCLAIMING THE SABBATH
TRUTH, the relationship of Sabbath observance to the troublous times before the loyal people of God, climaxing in the second coming of Christ bringing final deliverance.

The relationship of the Sabbath to the third angel's message was also revealed: `I was shown its importance and its place in the third angel's message'" (E.G. White letter 2, 1874).

In spite of Adventist denial, it is clear that these supposed visions of Ellen White are the real authority for the doctrine that they are the remnant church of the last days raised up by God to proclaim sabbath worship to all the world. Here again we find a key doctrine in the Adventist system formed upon the visions of their prophetess.

I repeat: without Ellen White there would be no Seventh-day Adventist Church. Many of their major doctrines simply could not have been derived from the Bible alone, for they are not to be found there, except that one approach the Scriptures with ideas preconceived from an extra-Biblical source--such as from someone's visions.
The SDA, as do other heretical cults, look at the Scriptures only through their strangely-ground heretical spectacles. Without the Mary Baker Eddy "Spectacles" there would be no Christian Scientists.
Without the Joseph Smith "Spectacles" there would be no Mormonism.
Without the Charles Taze Russell "Spectacles" there would be no Jehovah's Witnesses. These various personalities have provided their followers with a set of heretical ideas through which they look at the Bible. The Seventh-day Adventists purchased their heretical eyeglasses from the Ellen White laboratories.


8. WHAT ADVENTISM TEACHES:
Sabbath keeping will be the test of obedience during the Great Tribulation.

Adventism contends that during the Great Tribulation, Sunday observance will be the mark of the beast. They say it was the pope, as a type of the Antichrist, who changed the Sabbath to Sunday. All who observe Sunday worship in the Great Tribulation will be taking the mark of the beast and will, therefore, be lost.

Adventist interpreters understand this mark to be not a literal brand but some sign of allegiance that identifies the bearer as loyal to the power represented by the Beast. The controversy at that time will center on the law of God, and particularly on the fourth command. ... Hence, the observance of Sunday will constitute such a sign." (News From Jesus--part two, p. 28, Adult Sabbath School Lessons, third quarter, 1974).

"...this dispensing with one of the precepts of the Decalogue and substituting in its place a day God never commanded, is claimed by this power as the mark of its authority to bind the consciences of men. However appalling the revelation, this establishment of the first day of the week as a day of worship in spite of God's clear word that the seventh day is His Sabbath--this, by overwhelming evidence and unashamed admission, is the mark so soon to be imposed!" (Planet in Rebellion, p. 386).

WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES:

The idea that Sunday observance will be the mark of the beast is certainly not found in, nor supported by, Scripture. This is an idea conjured up and promulgated by Ellen White, and accepted as dogma by the Seventh-day Adventist denomination. True, the Antichrist will "think to change times and laws," yet nowhere does the Bible say this will involve the sabbath or Sunday. The Bible simply does not reveal exactly what laws The Antichrist will change.

Whence cometh the Seventh-day Adventist ideas, then? On the back cover of the book The Great Controversy, it is written of its author, Ellen G. White, that "she is considered to have been inspired of God." In this book White brings out in great detail the doctrines she supposedly was taught by angels during several visions. Here it is, among other strange doctrines and additions to God's revelation, that she develops fully the idea of Sunday observance as the mark of the beast.
Mrs. White writes:

"Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness, Satan will bring
the people under his deceptions ... the Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power.

"...It will be declared that men are offending God by the violation of the Sunday sabbath; that this sin has brought calamities which will not cease until Sunday observance shall be strictly enforced; and that those who present the claims of the fourth commandment, thus destroying reverence for Sunday, are troublers of the people. ..."

"Those who honor the Bible Sabbath will be denounced as enemies of law and order. ... As Protestant churches reject the clear Scriptural arguments in defense of God's law, they will long to silence those whose faith they cannot overthrow by the Bible. ... The dignitaries of church and state will unite to bribe, persuade, or compel all classes to honor the Sunday ... even in free America" (The Great Controversy, pp. 515, 517-519).
Steve
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Ken,

I like what Bruce asked. Tell us about your relationship with Jesus your Savior.

As for me, my Savior is incredible.

He was born of a virgin, because I couldn't be. He was born without original sin, because I couldn't be. He was literally the Son of God, God the Son, because I couldn't be.

He avoided all of Satans' temptations because I couldn't. (Remember, even if I don't "sin", I am still "sinful".) He was baptized in water, in case I couldn't be. He was baptized in the Holy Spirit for me. He spoke the very words of God, because He was God Himself. I can't do that, because I'm not God.

He lived a perfect life, because I couldn't. He was circumcised, (I believe) in case I wasn't. He loved people that I couldn't love. He forgave sins, because I can't forgive sins the way God really requires. He died for my sins, because I couldn't. He rose from the dead for me, because I couldn't. He ascended to the right hand of the Father, because I couldn't.

He sent me His Holy Spirit, because I can't go on without Him. He promised me that He will return, because I couldn't go on if He were never to come back. He is making a home for me, because I couldn't. He broke the Law, without sinning -- something I could never do. He brought His new Law, to teach me ways of living that the old Law could never even come close to.

He has done ALL THINGS, because I can do NOTHING. That is my Savior, Ken, Blessed be He.

Who is your savior?

Steve
Ken Clark
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2000 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Steve:

Ditto! Except I give a day per week to just worship him. No football, no baseball, no Basketball, no shopping, no working etc. So I don't get why you guys get all bent out of shape just because I take a special day to do things just for God...is that a bad thing?

Ken

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