| Author | Message | ||
| Ann L. |
Ken, "Yeah Right...a fact what do you have to back it up with." Most obviously you did not read my post that I precisely asked you a question, that I am still awaiting your response for. You see Ken, I'm sure that you know that the KJV was not the first bible that was ever written. In fact, the New Testament was originally written in Greek and had to be converted to english. Most obviously some of the meaning of the original words were lost due to these translations. For example, in english the words door and entrance traslate in spanish to one word "puerta" which simply means "entrance." The same thing with the bible. The greek words "sabbaton" and "sabbatismo" are translated into "sabbath." Like I told you in the post, that I am still awaiting your response to, the word "sabbath" in Colossians 2:16 was translated from the word "sabbaton" which means either "a week" or "the seventh day of the week." As far as my "back up," the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon and a host of bible scholars. I don't have my Bible software handy, but when I do I'll post you the meaning of "shabbath". If I'm not mistaken I believe that that is a Hebrew word which encompasses all the sabbath rests (seventh day, feast days etc.). I already posted you the meaning of the greek word "sabbaton." As far as the Lord's Day goes, there is no scriptural proof to proove that the sabbath is called the Lord's Day. I believe that the Websters dictionary got their meaning from history. There is historical proof that the Apostles referred to Sunday as the Lord's Day. I humbly again ask you to respond to my posts (yesterday). Were the questions that difficult?? God bless. | ||
| Ann L. |
Ken wrote: ìThese are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day: Lev. 23:37 KJV Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD. Lev. 23:38 KJV Notice beside the sabbaths of the LORD...î Notice the ìFEASTS OF THE LORD.î They are called FEASTS, NOT SABBATHS! So are you telling me that because they are the feasts of the Lord, we are meant to keep them too? I only have a KJV NT handy, so I canít look up the whole chapter right now. When I do, Iíll verify my statement, just in case I misinterpreted the verses. Jtree, great post. I especially liked, ìIf the sabbath had been kept by mankind in general from the creation, it could not have been given as a special sign to Israel.î Gosh, I never looked at it that way before! Bells suddenly rang in my head! Colleen, great post! I believe you may have misunderstood jtree, ìI have to address one of jtree's statements, though. He said, essentially, that some commandments are retained in force, some are spiritualized, and some are dropped altogetherÖHebrews says that where there is a change in the priesthood (Jesus, from the tribe of Judah, not the priestly Levites, is a priest after the order of Melchizedek, not Aaron) there is a change in the law. (Heb. 7:12)î What I understand jtree to mean is that there are commandments in the Old Covenant that we still ìkeep.î E.g. we know that it would be a sin to commit murder etc. Which comes back to the post I made last night, ìHow can we witness to people like Ken Ö who cannot comprehend why we see breaking nine of those commandments as sin, but breaking the 4th one as not a sin (although we know that there are other laws in the Law of Moses that if we break it would be considered sin).î I believe that this is a very critical issue. Does anyone have any feedback on that post? | ||
| Plain Patti |
Hey, Jude. You are right. I did not read closely enough. I thought this was a DIFFERENT Bruce than OUR Bruce. Evidently I read a part of what he wrote and assumed he was defending Ken. Please forgive me, Bruce and Jude and all who are observing. Now, Jude, as to your bone of contention with my interpretation of Hebrews 10:29, I have to stand my ground and humbly beg to disagree amiably. From my perspective, you have taken away all hope of salvation, because there is not one of us present who has not "'deliberately kept on sinning' after having received the knowledge of the truth." Who among us does not feel proud when we have scored a "coup" on someone else with our "impeccable" theology? Who among us does not nurture feelings of insecurity or impatience or other forms of self-centeredness on an almost daily basis? Who among us has not coveted the means with which to make our lives easier? Who among us fails to get angry when we are "bested" in an argument? Who among us does not feel closer to the "truth" than our SDA comrades? If you maintain that there is no sacrifice for deliberate sin after we have heard the Gospel, then you have taken us back into the wilderness of doubt and legalism--we might as well have stayed in Egypt. "My little children, I write to you that you do not sin, but if we do sin, we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous." Jesus forgives sinners. Completely. We are not only allowed to do so, but we are commanded in Hebrews 10 to stand with confidence without shrinking back from our conviction that Jesus is our full salvation. My opinion only, Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Patti, Yes, we are going to have to disagree here, but in Christ. My primary reason for disagreeing is that your interpretation appears to be based primarily on your observations of other people: (A) They feel proud when they have scored a "coup" on someone else with "impeccable" theology. (B) They nurture feelings of insecurity or impatience or other forms of self-centeredness on an almost daily basis. (C) They covet the means with which to make their lives easier. (D) They get angry when "bested" in an argument. (E) They feel closer to the "truth" than our SDA comrades. To the contrary, my interpretation is based exclusively on exegesis of the test within its context. More in a minute, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Patti, You wrote, "there is not one of us present who has not 'deliberately kept on sinning' after having received the knowledge of the truth." I would question this assertion: How could you possibly know that? It seems to me that only the Holy Spirit could make that kind of judgment. More later, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Patti again, You wrote, "'My little children, I write to you that you do not sin, but if we do sin, we have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous.' Jesus forgives sinners. Completely. We are not only allowed to do so, but we are commanded in Hebrews 10 to stand with confidence without shrinking back from our conviction that Jesus is our full salvation." A couple of observations: (A) Do you think that John was talking about deliberately keeping on sinning here? I don't. I believe he was talking about sincere Christians who fall prey to temptation. (B) Yes, Jesus forgives sinners completely. But a lifetime of deliberate sinning proves proves nothing more than that the determined sinner has never accepted agape grace in the first instance. This is the primary message of the parable of "the wheat and the weeds." Gotta go because my computer program is giving out. Have to check something. Hope to be back soon. Blessings to you, Jude | ||
| Ann L. |
Hi Patti, I understand your point, but I have to agree with Jude. I don't believe that this verse refers to any of those acts that you mentioned. I believe that these acts are sinful tendencies that we have, due to the weakness of the flesh. Take for instance David, a man after God's own heart. I am quite sure that when David sinned, he was fully aware of what he was doing, but he had a right heart. After he committed the sins, he was earnestly sorry, repented and sought God's forgiveness. We may be fully AWARE of our sin at the point in which we commit them, but that does not mean that we sin DELIBERATELY. Since we have the Holy Spirit living within us, He will convict us when we sin. I believe the deliberateness comes in when we try to justify our sins, instead of accepting the Holy Spirit's convictions and seeking God's forgiveness. There is deliberate sin, and sin as a result of our weak sinful nature. Having a "clean" heart before God is what is important, and only God knows our motives, "for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7 | ||
| Jude the |
Hi, Patti, I'm back. Computer program's okay. I want to discuss Romans 7 and 8 with you. Paul does say, "Nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do -- this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it." Romans 7:18,20 NIV. But Paul NEVER says, neither here nor anywhere else, that continued deliberate sinning is covered by grace. Maybe "cheap grace" -- which is not God's grace at all, but Satan's -- but certainly not costly grace, which is grace for which the martyrs died. Costly grace is the only grace Christ earned on the cross. And it cannot be squandered, even as God cannot be mocked. For if you squander what you think is costly grace by continued deliberate sinning, you will find -- as Christ's parable of the wheat and weeds demonstrates -- what what you squandered was never costly grace at all, but cheap grace, Satan's grace, worthless grace. And at the end of the parable, at the harvest, you will discover you were never a wheat at all, but a weed all along. Cheap grace is the most serious deception of all, for it alone constitutes "grieving away the Holy Spirit." Furthermore, Paul talks about his own sinning -- what makes him feel "wretched" (v. 24) -- not that of other people. Continued deliberate sinning, according to Paul, is "living according to the sinful nature." And Paul never ever says that he lives according to his sinful nature. "Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation -- but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God." Romans 8:12-14 NIV. Any thoughts? Costly grace and peace, Jude | ||
| Plain Patti |
Jude, Thank you for the dialog, but I must stand my ground. If you think you are not deliberately sinning, then more power to you. But I know myself, and, like Paul, that which I desire to do, I cannot do, and that which I do not want to do, that is what I do. If we say we have no sin, we are liars and the truth is not in us. Sin is sin. Deliberate or unintentional, by design or by accident. I recently had an online debate with an SDA whose stance is much like yours. He made a distinction between "practiced" sin and "inadvertant" sin. You will find no such distinction in Scripture. Christ died for sinners. In order to accept the gift of salvation, we must acknowledge ourselves as being hopeless sinners. If we ever get to a point that we no longer sin (deliberately or otherwise), then we have no need of grace. Jude, if a person takes your position, then it puts him with at least one foot back in the RC camp--hierarchializing sin ("venial" and "mortal" sin). And generally, when one does that, (and I am not saying that you do this) it is the sins of the "others" that are more serious than one's own. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"; how much more heinous must our sinful ways be to God! You wrote: (A) Do you think that John was talking about deliberately keeping on sinning here? I don't. I believe he was talking about sincere Christians who fall prey to temptation. So are you saying that we are judged by our sincerity? This is putting the burden of salvation back onto us, Jude. We are not judged by our "sincerity" any more than we are judged by our commandment keeping. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. John 3:18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. Why would a person who has seen the awful magnitude of the price of sin in the death of our Lord want to "deliberately keep on sinning"? Of course we do not want to, but we are sinners, and we will keep on sinning. You are making a distinction that is not present in the Gospel. You also wrote: (B) Yes, Jesus forgives sinners completely. But a lifetime of deliberate sinning proves proves nothing more than that the determined sinner has never accepted agape grace in the first instance. This is the primary message of the parable of "the wheat and the weeds." You are speaking about judging other humans from a human perspective. Who are we to say who on earth has offered to God a lifetime of deliberate sinning and who has not? You are also speaking about judging others, which we are strictly forbidden to do. One can't have it both ways, Jude. Either we are saved totally and completely by the work of Christ on our behalf or we are saved (at least in part) by the works of our own hands. If we are not saved by our works, then we cannot be lost because of them either. And speaking of sin, as you so aptly pointed out, whatever is not of faith is sin, so that means that everything we DO is sin. There is no hierarchy of sin. The sin of being proud for winning an argument is just as wicked and worthy of eternal death as is adultery. The sin of being angry with your brother is just as wicked and worthy of eternal death as murdering him. So do we openly flaunt sin so that we can brag about God's grace in saving us? Paul says, God forbid! If we are stricken by our own worthlessness, we are not going to cherish it. But, even more, we are in no way to sit in judgment on our brothers and sisters for their outward sin--that in itself is a sin. And our duty is not to convict others of what they should and should not do. That is the job of the Holy Spirit. Our duty is to lift up Jesus Christ and Him crucified. And when we do this, we are promised that the Holy Spirit work with all who believe and HE will guide them into all truth. He will convict them. It is His job to convict and convince, not ours. John 15:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; Notice here what sin is considered: Not believing in Jesus Christ. 10 in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; Jesus has ascended to heaven, taking our righteousness with Him, where moth and rust (and human hands) cannot destroy or corrupt it. 11 and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. Jude, we are not saved by our sincerity, by our growth toward sinlessness, by our theology, or even by our faith. We are saved by the grace, the totally unmerited favor of God toward sinful humans on account of the work of Jesus Christ in our behalf. While we live on this earth, we will remain sinners, totally incapable of rendering anything pleasing to God. We are always dependent upon the blood of Christ in forgiving us and upon His robe of spotless righteousness that He offers to all who trust in Him. Hope to see you back on soon! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Hi Ken, You posted, "I give a day per week to just worship him. No football, no baseball, no Basketball, no shopping, no working etc. So I don't get why you guys get all bent out of shape just because I take a special day to do things just for God...is that a bad thing?" First, if any FAF got "all bent out of shape" over anything you have posted, I want to personally apologize to you for that person's untoward actions. Second, I would like to answer your question. No, it is not "a bad thing" that you "take a special day to do things just for God." In fact, according to Scripture, it is a very good thing (Romans 14:22 NIV): "One man [Ken] considers one day [the seventh] more sacred than another; another man [Jude] considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He [Ken] who regards one day [the seventh] as special, does so to the Lord." Praising God for you, Ken, Jude | ||
| Ann L. |
Hi Ken, As I promised, I'm not sure which of the following two words you were referring to, but they are both Hebrew words, not Greek: 7673 shabath { shaw-bathí} a primitive root; TWOT - 2323, 2323c; v AV - cease 47, rest 11, away 3, fail 2, celebrate 1, misc 7; 71 GK - 8697 { tb'v; } & 8698 { tb'v; 1) to cease, desist, rest 1a) (Qal) 1a1) to cease 1a2) to rest, desist (from labour) 1b) (Niphal) to cease 1c) (Hiphil) 1c1) to cause to cease, put an end to 1c2) to exterminate, destroy 1c3) to cause to desist from 1c4) to remove 1c5) to cause to fail 2) (Qal) to keep or observe the sabbath 7676 shabbath { shab-bawthí} intensive from 7673; TWOT - 2323b; n f/m AV - sabbath 107, another 1; 108 GK - 8701 { tB;v' 1) Sabbath 1a) sabbath 1b) day of atonement 1c) sabbath year 1d) week 1e) produce (in sabbath year) From reading Leviticus 23, the seventh day sabbath as well as the FEASTS all seem to be grouped together. They are all "holy convocations" (sacred assemblies). "And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings. 4These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons. 5In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORDíS passover..." I think it's quite clear, there were SABBATHS OF THE LORD and there were FEASTS OF THE LORD, all of which were sacred assemblies in which the Israelites had to make offerings and do no work. Ken don't you find it interesting that the feast of Firstfruits was celebrated on Sunday? What? Sunday, a sabbath? Yep. Verse 11, "1And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it." Now back to Colossians 2:16. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an HOLYDAY, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" We already established the FACT that the "sabbath days" refer to the seventh day SABBATHS OF THE LORD. Now hear the other FACT, "an holyday" refers to the FEASTS OF THE LORD. This is the first time I actually checked it out! This software is simply awesome! And here it is, from the Enhanced Strong's Lexicon "heorte": 1859 heorte { heh-or-tayí} of uncertain affinity;; n f AV - feast 26, holy day 1; 27 GK - 2038 { eJorthv } 1) a feast day, festival Doesn't it make sense now Ken, I think Jude posted this earlier. Why would Paul repeat himself? The feasts, the new moons and the feasts? No! The feasts, the new moon and the seventh day sabbath. That my friend, is the amazing FACT! Ken, (the great bible study tool you are!) I hope this little exercise helped you to SEE the TRUTH. Remember, if the FACTS conflict with what you have previously learned, then obviously something you learned is not a FACT, but a PRESUPPOSITION. Holy Spirit take over. Minister to each and every soul that is reading this today. If they are still blind to your Gospel, I pray that today may be a turning point in their lives Lord Jesus. Remove the veil from their eyes Heavenly Father. Where there is the spirit of doubt, replace it with Your assurance. For those that may be unsaved, I pray right now that you may minister to them, for Today is the day of salvation. Help us all to find true Rest in you, as you have spoken in your Gospel, "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls." All this I pray in Your name, Amen. | ||
| Plain Patti |
Good stuff, Jude and Ann! Thanks! | ||
| Steve |
Hi Ken, You ask why I get "all bent out of shape" about your keeping a day. That's not the issue. Are you a Seventh-day Adventist? If you are, then . . . The SDA church has a very focused mission. To proclaim the Law, particularly the "forgotten" 7th day Sabbath, the one Law that most of the rest of Christendom has forgotten. I am choosing to dissociate myself from SDAism because of that focus (amongst many other theological problems that this doesn't even address). I feel the SDA church does a disservice to the cause of Christ by specifically focusing on a day. THE DAY IS NOT THE ISSUE. According to Paul, those who choose to honor a day, honor it to the Lord. Those who choose not to honor a day, do not honor it, to the Lord. No one is attacking you for keeping a day. Our DEFENSE of YOUR ATTACKS, and the attack of the SDA church on Christianity is against those who would tell the rest of us that WE MUST KEEP A DAY, and that that day will be a dividing mark between believers and non-believers in the last days. Ken, that's deceptive. And you have bought into that deception. Those of use who have left (or are leaving) SDAism have simply found that, whether you want to keep a day or not, JESUS IS THE ISSUE, NOT A DAY. Ken, come to Jesus. He is calling you. As long as you cling to the Law, His grace will be of no effect in your life (and deep down I believe you know that.) You can still keep the seventh-day Sabbath. But take it out of the equation of your relationship with Jesus. Jesus wants nothing to get in the way of our relationship with Him. And to think that keeping a day makes that relationship better, is allowing the other 6 days to be less than what they could be. Remember, the temple in Jerusalem was open 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. It is a false teaching that Jesus, and Israel only came to the temple on the Sabbath. Jesus was probably there much more than that. (Perhaps He was in the synagogue [church] 7 days a week, that is, when He was in town.) If the Sabbath brings you into such a close relationship with Jesus, don't you want that same closeness 7 days a week, 24 hours a day? I sure do. God Bless you, Steve | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Ken, I want to echo what Steve is saying. There is nothing in my last post that I want to retract. But Ken is right in that the Seventh-day Adventist church does hurt, if not destroy, the gospel by making a day, the seventh-day Sabbath day, a test of fellowship now and the final test of salvation before Jesus comes in the clouds. I would consider myself a traitor to Chriset if I failed to make myself crystal clear to you: Belief in Jesus Christ as your personal Savior is the only test of fellowship now and the final test of salvation before Jesus comes. The seventh-day Sabbath is strictly optional, as Paul says in Romans 14. Costly grace and the peace that passeth understanding to you, Jude | ||
| BRUCE H |
Ken Here is why I do not worship on Saturday. I would like to because that is what I grew I with. But I could not find a Sabbath keeping Church that follows the Word of God and is filled with the Spirit and that have people who really want to worship God. Let me give you some examples. I was raised in the Adventist Church, I was taught that the Bible had lots of errors and mistakes, I was taught that I could never know if I was saved, Just a could of months ago I went to Church with my Dad and the pastor up front said that the Book of Hebrews on was added buy the Catholic Church. I just finished and Adventist Book call "Who has the Truth" it is a debate about the Five different Gospels within Adventism, as far as I know the Bible has only one. The president of the Church is kick out for shady buisness deals. I talk to people who work at Loma Linda Hospital who are not Adventist and they say the place is worse than any place they have ever worked. I can go on for hours about the Adventist Chruch but let me tell you about the Seventh Day Baptist Church, I talked to one of the pastors who has a leadership role in the Seventh Day Baptist Chruch and He said at the Last meeting the debat was, Was it really a vergin Birth and should Homosexuals preach at the pulpit. Now have you been to any of the Messianic Jews meeting, well let me put it this way thay say that The Adventist do not know anything about how to keep the sabbath and that they are just a bunc of fakes and they will argue about cuttin the sides of there hair and wearring tassels. I went all over LA and San Diego and I could not find one sabbath Keeping Church that would even admit to me that it did not have serious problems. I cmae to the conclusion if God wanted the Seventh Day Sabbath why doesnt he bless it why does He almost always Curse it. Could it be that the Law still brings a curse. These Sabbatariens would tell me well since it is the Truth then that is why Satan work very hard on it, at leat they are admitting the problem. No. I believe that God blesses truth. The Bible says you will know me by my fruits, what I finde facinating is that almost all Sabbataians will not go to a sunday keeping church except the Messianic Jews. Well I guess that they will never see the fruit of the Spirit or know what God is doing. Well I know you are going to tell me well my Church is healthy, well if you are going to say this tell me where it is and I will visit this one Church that defies the odds. Let me see Its growth, Let me see Gods word on the walls of the people houses that I visit as well as Jesus picture (The plaque of the Ten Commandments does not count). Let me worship with these people and wendsday evening and friday night and Sabbath. Let me talk about Jesus with them at work and at lunch, whenwe go golfing or hicking or surfing, let us pray for hours in the eveing for the Power of God to fill the Chruch and to bless his people. You see the only thing I find consistant of Sabbatarians is that most of them doubt there salvation, they do not walk by faith adn I believe that it is the Law that does. What does the Law do, 1. It point out falt that is why Adventist point out fault in veryone. 2. It condemns so those who keep it feel that they are condemned by it. 3. It point out faults in ourselves so we stay small immature Christians. 4. It curses. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Bruce H |
Ken Look at the very last word of the Old Covenant or Testamnet. Do you think God made a mistake or did he do this on purpose. | ||
| Steve |
Bruce, That's powerful and profound. Although I have come to the conclusion that the Law, including the seventh-day Sabbath, is a curse and points out sin, I never looked at in the way you just pointed out. It's fascinating that those who insist on keeping the Sabbath allow the curse of the Law to have such a hold on them. Although the Law was given to provide guidance for Israel, it was NEVER to continue IN THE PLACE OF JESUS. I guess that's the problem with the keepers of the Law (or the Keepers of the Armor, as so well pointed out by Jude under the discussion title about Armor.) Jesus destroyed the Law, and we do Him a disservice by trying to piece it back together. I am beginning to see why Paul was so strongly opposed to the Law and those who would impose the Law's restrictions on others. It simply got in the way of the Grace of God. Ken, are you even beginning to see what this discussion has been about? Are you questioning ANYTHING about your faith in the Sabbath or the Law? I have questioned many things over the years. But this one thing is sure, my faith in Jesus Christ, who loves me and died for me, is as strong as ever. While all other things crash and burn around me (EGW, KJV, Inv. Judg., Scapegoat, 1844, Sabbath, Law, Mark of the Beast, the most Holy Catholic and Apostolic Seventh-day Adventist church, etc., etc.,) Jesus remains the Solid Rock, yesterday, today, and forever. Allow yourself to be lost in the Sabbath of Sabbaths, Jesus Christ Himself. For when you come to that Sabbath, the Son will rise, never to set again. For in that Sabbath, there truly is no end. Abiding in the Sabbath Who has no end, (and really had no beginning!), Steve | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi All: I was re-reading the 10 Commandments over again tonight. I'm trying to see how anybody could possibly think that they we're for Jews only. Then I remembered a post that was directed at me as follows. By Ann L. on Tuesday, May 9, 2000 - 12:35 pm: "We have had laws since Adam & Eve." What LAWS were Adam and Eve given? Well Ann L. if you read Exodus the Lord is writing with his finger exactly what was set up at the beginning in the garden. Why I ask would the Lord write anyting in the 10 Commandments about creation & the sabbath if it weren't observed in the garden? For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. Ex. 20:11 Why does the Lord bless the Sabbath day and hallow it? Why did the Lord not bless any other day in the 10 Commandments or the New testament? Why would we be told to remember this 4th Command? Probably because the Lord knew that we would indeed completely forget his day! Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Ex. 20:8 Why would we be told how many days to work? Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: Ex. 20:9 So how did anybody get things so screwed up, that they could possibly think, persuade, or trick others into saying any other day could be the Lords day? Isn't the Lord flat out calling the Sabbath his day in the following text? But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: Ex. 20:10 A little more food for thought... Ken | ||
| jtree |
Our Frined Ken Are you saying the Sabbath was instituted in the Garden of Eden? The Sabbath Was Instituted at Sinai! There was no observance that preceded Israel's deliverance from Egyptian bondage. It was not kept from creation, and is in no sense an original, natural or eternal law. Ezekial said Israel sinned grievously in Egypt and he declared their abominations (Ezekial 20:4-8). But he made no mention of a sabbath violation. He said that God brought them out of Egypt into the wilderness (vs. 9-10) and gave them his statutes (v. 11). "Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them" (v. 12). Moses had said these statutes had not been given to their fathers. (Deut. 5:1-3.) Nehemiah's inspired testimony was in agreement: "Thou camest down also upon mount Sinai, and spakest with them; from heaven .. And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath .. by the hand of Moses thy servant .." (Nehemiah 9:13-14.) The Sabbath Was Given to Israel Only! The law of Moses was a national law enjoined on Israel alone. "And Moses called all Israel and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak ... The Lord our God made a covenant with us .." (Deut. 5:1-2.) He did not make this covenant with any other nation or people in the world. No other nation was ever given a sabbath law, and no other nation ever adopted one. The Sabbath Commemmorated - Israel's Deliverance from Bondage in Egypt "And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day." (Deut. 5:15.) This language was not and cannot be appropriately applied to any other nation on earth. In selecting the seventh day the Lord used the day on which he had rested following creation. But that is not when or why it was given. The people to whom it was given did not even exist at that time, nor had the deliverance it commemmorated taken place. The passage plainly tells who it was given to, and why. Ken, we are in good conversation here. And amoung your new frieds... The Sabbath Was a Sign to Israel "Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever ..." (Exod. 31:16-17.) Hundreds of years later God told Ezekial that the sabbath was "a sign between Me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them." (Ezek. 20:10-12.) How could it be a "sign" between God and Israel if it had been given for centuries to other nations before Israel even existed, and thereafter was given to every nation? "Sanctify" means "set apart," and if everybody had the sabbath, there is no respect in which they were sanctified by the sabbath. It would not be sanctification, but deceit. It would be like a young man making a marriage agreement with a girl and giving her a solitaire diamond ring as a sign of their agreement and engagement, and to set her apart as "his" girl. But he had already made the same agreement and given an identical ring to all of his several girl friends. The ring would mean nothing! She was not set apart at all. It would not be a sign of anything, except that he is deceitful. And so with the sabbath .. if God gave it to all nations and men. It Was to Be Observed throughout Israel's Generations In the passage quoted above (Exod. 31:16-17) the words "perpetual" and "for ever" are argued by sabbatarians to mean "eternal." They conclude that this means that the sabbath is eternally binding on all men. But the argument fails for: 1. The passage does not address all men, or refer to anything given to all men. It is addressed to Israel only and concerns a sign instituted only with Israel. 2. It was not to be kept throughout mankind's generations, but throughout "their" (Israel's) generations. It was special to Israel , and they were to keep it throughout their generations. 3. But Israel was degenerate and was carried away into captivity by the Assyrians and Babylonians. She was repeatedly humbled and oppressed by foreign powers, and was finally destroyed by the Romans under Titus. Herod destroyed all the genealogical records. Israel deceased. Anything perpetual with its generations also necessarily ceased. 4. Most sabbatarians somehow understand "throughout your generations," "forever" and "perpetual" to have ended on other matters. For example: (1) The passover -- "throughout your generations and "for ever" -- Exodus 14:12. (2) The feast of unleavened bread -- "in your generations by an ordinance for ever" -- Exodus 30:8. (3) Burning of incense -- "a perpetual incense .. throughout your generations." -- Exodus 30:8. (4) Burn lamps -- "Command .. to cause the lamps to burn continually .. it shall be a statute for ever in your generations" -Leviticus 24:2-3. (5) Sin offering of atonement, once a year -- "throughout your generations." Exodus 30:10. (6) The service of the tabernacle, washing to enter -- "a statute for ever .. throughout their generations" -- Exodus 30:16-21. (7) The Aaronic / Levitical priesthood -- "an everlasting priesthood throughout their generations" -- Exodus 40:15. These feasts and ceremonies and the sabbath have the same duration. There is no expression describing the duration of the sabbath that does not also describe the duration of the feasts, tabernacle, levitical priesthood etc. They continue and end together. They are part of the same law. The one cannot survive the other. ). The "Engraved in Stones" Law Is Done Away and Abolished "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance .." (2 Cor. 3:7.) This refers back to Exodus 34:27-35. "And the Lord said unto Moses .. I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel .. And he wrote the words of the covenant, the ten commandments .. And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that the skin of Moses's face shone .." Now read the inspired commentary of 2 Corinthians 3 that unmistakably identifies this law as the ten commandments (of which the sabbath was a part) and repeatedly declares that it is abolished. 1. Verse 6: We now have a new testament. 2. Verse 7: The law written and engraven in stones .. was to be done away. 3. Verse 7: It is the law given when Moses face was glorious, which was at Sinai. (Ex. 34:30,35.) 4. Verse 11: It "is done away." 5. Verse 13: It "is abolished." 5. Verses 14-15: Moses face was vailed, signifying that they could not see the end of that which "is abolished." The Law Is Dead She who marries another while her husband lives is guilty of adultery: "For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband .. if while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulter-ess: but if her husband be dead, she is free .." (Rom. 7: 2-3.) The application clear: we are free from the law because death has taken place and we can now be married to Christ (v. 4). The law is dead! Ken another question come to mind here. Are you MARRIED? Would you go out with another woman since you are married? I didn't think so. thank you. Another question Ken, are you married to Christ? If so, and your playing with the law as you state you do. Because I would not want to see my friend french fry because he is a spiritual "adultress" now would I? (So many you are behind times to answer them). If Part of the Law Is Bound, Christ Becomes of No Effect! Circumcision was a part of the Old Testament, but Judaizers were trying to incorporate it into the gospel just as some are now trying to make sabbath keeping a part of the gospel. But you cannot resurrect part of a corpse. It's all or nothing. Hear the fatal consequences of trying to revive the relics of Judaism: "Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace." (Gal. 5:2-4.) What irresistible plainness. If you bind part of the law, look at the consequences: Christ shall profit you nothing. You must keep all of the law. Christ is of no effect to you. Ye are fallen from grace. Ken in the New Testiment have you read the 10 commandments? Do you know where they are? We are accused of "believing 9 of the 10" but do you know the New Testiment only brough forward 9 of the 10? No Sabbath Command Exists in the New Testament Upon being nailed to the cross, no sabbath law has ever been given, or observed, by divine authority. No sabbath admonitions or warnings have been uttered though many solemn reminders of sins are given. 1.Eleven sins are listed in Colossians 3:5,8. The sabbath is not mentioned. 2.Seventeen sins are listed in Galatians 5:19-21. The sabbath is not mentioned. 3.Eighteen sins are listed in 2 Timothy 3:1-4. The sabbath is not mentioned. 4.Nineteen sins are listed in Romans 1:29-31. The sabbath is not mentioned. 5.No list of sins includes the sabbath. The sabbath is not mentioned. Nothing more needs to be said on the point. There is no New Testament sabbath law. Contrariwise, the Bible warns against having special days Ken( "I give a day per week to just worship him. No football, no baseball,no Basketball, no shopping, no working etc. So I don't get why you guys get all bent out of shape just because I take a special day to do things just for God...is that a bad thing?") for giving and of judging with respect to the sabbath. (Gal. 4:10; Col. 2:16.) The Ten Commandments in the New Testament 1. Worship God only Yes I Cor. 8:6 2. No idols Yes I Cor. 10:7 3. Swear not Yes Jas. 5:12 4. Sabbath NO ?????????? 5. Honor parents YES Eph. 6:1-3 6. Not kill (hate) Yes 1 John 3:15 7. No adultery Yes Gal 5:19 8. Not steal YES Eph 4:28 9. Not lie YES Col 3:9 10. Not covet YES Eph.5:3; Wait a minute...we are minus one...oh, we have a Sabbath, He is Christ, Sabbath means rest, Christ give the New Testiment Christian rest. Ken said >Why does the Lord bless the Sabbath day and hallow it? Because it was Christ's shadow. Even His shadow was Holy, but you rather have the shadow or the REALITY Ken? In the name of Yeshua Ha'mashiach (Jesus the Messiah). Ken, may I ask you to go to a web site. can you pleae go to http://www.sdaoutreach.org and pick and click the audio section. You seem to have somewhat of an open mind, would you mind going there and listening to the audio's online with your realaudio player for me, please brother Ken. I would like to hear it, but I can't. So can you report back here and tell us what you heard? If you need to, listed a few times. I would love to hear what Pastor Mark Martin has to say. Thank you. and God bless you and everyone today. Ken come stand on the Rock with me..we don't want to stumble on the stone on the way. Joshua | ||
| Ken Clark |
Hi Joshua: Mark Martin is a fraud! I e-mailed some questions about life after death then he responded then I responded back to him then he blocked me from sending any more e-mails to him. I guess he coulden't stand the heat! Christ is the rock not you Ken |
