| Author | Message | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bill, I agree with Maryann. Richard Tinker is the website system administrator. He's an honest, intelligent, faithful and fair Christ-follower. He only kicks people off for posting "outside the scope" of this discussion board. You can be expunged and blocked for (1) "stalking," (2) posting witchcraft, (3) using inappropriate language, and (4) deliberate ongoing deception (e.g., using multiple screen names to agree with yourself and put "opponents" down). Things like that. Otherwise, sincere, even misguided, disagreements are not necessarily "off exhibit," as they say all too often of the baby giant panda at the San Diego Zoo. Just remember, this website is located inside the walls of the kingdom of heaven (Luke 17:20,21). And fear not, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Maryann, Here's the rest of the post intended to answer your very hard questions. I posted this early but lost it due to a computer program glitch. Not my fault. Honest! Heh heh. To your question: ìWhy did He create us to save us? If He knew the end from the beginning, then did He create sin? If He created us to save us, He must have created us to sin!î You are stating a classical theological problem. Youíre in good company ñ with St. Anselm, St. Thomas Aquinas, and many other great thinkers. What youíre going to get from me is my ìtheology of mystery.î Mystery theology says we cannot know anything at all about God beyond what he has deliberately chosen to reveal. It says that just as ìGod is love,î then ìGod is mystery.î Mystery is a good quality, like love. It keeps us guessing. It shows us that God is interesting and not humanly predictable in all his ways. When mystery theology is applied to creation, it goes like this: God created us to save us. Why? Because he loves us. Beyond that we encounter Godís unrevealed mystery and we cannot go any further. Those who do are merely building the ìTower of Babbleî (sic) anew. It doesnít compute, then, to conclude that God created us to sin. Thatís because love is the ultimate description of Godís character as revealed by God the Eternally Begotten Jesus Christ alone. To posit a cause behind this cause is to deny and contradict it. In other words, to reason that there is a cause prior to love is a no-go. The buck stops there: love. Here we encounter God as mystery. Beyond his love we cannot further penetrate the mind of God because his mystery stops us at that ultimate point: love. As the ultimate revelation of God, Jesus Christ cannot create things that contradict his own nature, which is love. Creating us to sin would be creating with a purpose that contradicts his ultimate revealed nature: love. You also raised the issue of how Godís foreknowledge affects our freedom. Human philosophers have long said that if God knows what his creatures are going to do, they have no freedom. My personal theology says we cannot reach such conclusions because of Godís mystery. We simply donít know. We have to accept what has been revealed. God says, ìChoose ye.î That implies freedom of choice. But God also ìhardened Pharaohís heart.î That implies fatalism or determinism. Mystery theology allows paradox on the ground that our logic is not good enough to penetrate the mind of God. There are dimensions of God of which we know nothing. So I personally accept a balance between my freedom and my lack of freedom. This is as good an answer as I can give you at this point. Grace to you, Jude | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Jude, You know, it's really funny to post, Hi Jude, Hi Lori, etc. etc. It reminds me of the days when I used to go to Alnon, AA meeting, etc. etc to edge-ah-muh-cate myself in those fields. The standard thing was to identify yourself, then the whole outfit would say, Hi Sally, Hi John! ;-( Anyway, I will never get discouraged about all this stuff. So, please don't get discougaged with me. I get a little frustrated when I have a hard time focusing. The world goes by so fast that your mind tends to wonder. Things, things, things! I print out these post's and get to them later. After I read some of you post's and other peoples post's my "soft" head looks like Yosemite Sams belly after he swallows a load of dynamite!!! I feel right now like I have a petrified sponge in my head and it is just not ready to absorb. Sooooo, again don't give up on me. That was a heavy one you just posted, even with you simplifying it. Thanks for mentioning me in the same breath a some great thinkers. Personally, I'm more comfortable with the court jester's company. But, go ahead, keep pushing me;-) To turn something back at you, you said: "Hope you don't mind my attempts at humor (on another post)" I really do hope you don't mind my attempts at humor. (You too Bill;-) Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Maryann, I really can't improve on Jude's theology of mystery. I agree, Jude; the reality of God is beyond the scope of my understanding. Hence I have to accept paradox: tension between seemingly opposite things which are both true. I believe that if I could see ultimate reality, paradoxes would resolve themsleves. Ultimately, though, I believe that God has to take responsibility for sin. He created his creatures (including Lucifer and his minions) with the ability to sin. He ultimately has to take responsibility for sin. This fact, I believe, is one of the reasons only Jesus could die for us to save us. In fact, I agree with Jude; I believe God created us to save us. I believe we were a part of God's sovereign plan to resolve the issue of sin which arose before we did. By the same token, however, God's plan to make us "joint heirs" with him and to eternally share humanity with us was also part of God's sovereign plan to resolve the sin issue. I don't begin to understand what went on in the unsearchable mind of God. But I know that the plan for his death for our sins was in place before the foundations of the earth. And I know that he performed a miracle and rescued me from death and welcomed me into his kingdom! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Colleen, You know when a glass is full of water and it wont hold anymore? You know how bad you want that piece of pie after stuffing yourself and you just can't take a bite? Well, I'm in that spot right now. I'm not particularly questioning this "mystery theology", I'm just brain dead from overload. Have you ever been there? (Maybe I hurt myself when I asked Jude that "thinker" question;-) That to will pass in time. I'm just wondering if it' going to be in "our time" or "God's time"! Thanks for all your support and pushing...Maryann | ||
| Bill Twisse |
We'll just have to agree to disagree on the 'mystery theology' issue. However, we knew that there would eventually be things we would differ on! I do believe that Aristotle (from a non-Christian perspective) & St. Thomas Aquinas would agree with you! So there is a longstanding tradition in this vein. I just can't see it. The real difference we would have lies in the nature of the revealed, not the unrevealed. There is an infinite amount of God's nature that is unrevealed to us and that we will never know anything about, even in eternity. However, in those matters where he has revealed himself through revelation, he wants us to think as he thinks. The gospel was a mystery hidden but is now revealed. The reason the talk of 'mystery' in relation to biblical truth makes me nervous is because the NT emphasizes that the mystery is now over. God has placed no limit on our eagerness to study what he has revealed. On the secret things, of course, we need not waste our time. I'm in the Reformed tradition on the nature of revelation, scripture, God, Christ, and salvation. So that is where my theology is. On many other issues (the people of God, the law-covenant, the doctrine of final judgment, the origin of sin, and others) I have little to do with the Reformed view of things. Personally, I believe that the Bible has a lot more to say about where God stands in relation to sin's origen than we have often thought. He is love and also wrath. But more about that another time. Maryann, I know that I'm serious and people often do not sense humor when I speak. Here is your smile though! ;-) --Twisse | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Bill, Thanks for that truly awesome post. No sense of antagonism or pride or self-righteousness or fragile-egotism. Just a gentlemanly (gentlepersonly?) admission of honest difference. I must admit that there have been those posting on this website who have not been so gracious. Thanks again and God bless, Jude | ||
| Lori |
The Origin of Sin---Is it genetically inherited? Here is Biblical evidence that I have found that supports the genetic inheritance of the sin nature, as opposed to the self-acquired sin nature. The old sin nature contaminates mankind so that no one can approach God's perfect essence or please Him. Although, not a part of the soul, but the center of rebellion toward God, the old sin nature seeks to influence and control the soul. This depraved nature came into existence as a direct result of Adam's first sin. The old sin nature portrays the disobedient trend of Adam in action after the Fall. "Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin (sin nature) entered into the world, and (spiritual) death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned." (Rom. 5:12) The sin nature is passed from the original parents through procreation to the rest of the human race and resides in the cell structure of the body (Rom. 6:6) "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so the BODY OF SIN might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-" "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature (sinful flesh) the sinful passions aroused by the law were at WORK IN OUR BODIES, so that we bore fruit for death." (Romans 7:5) "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature (sinful flesh) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." (Romans 7:18) This verse states that the desires of the mind are good, but the sinful body can not carry them out. With the exception of Jesus Christ, every person born has an active sin nature, I was born with one; you were born with one. The sweetest baby you ever saw has a sin nature. Mothers may "ooh" and "aah" over their babies saying "Isn't he beautiful " "Isn't she adorable!" But do you know God's attitude toward babies? You may be shocked! Babies are unacceptable to God! We look at the physical appearance of a baby, but God sees the sin nature. So, no matter how many people admire the beauty and innocence of a baby, remember; only one baby has ever been beautiful to God---Jesus Christ! (Please note--this is not a statement meaning babies and children are accountable for the sin nature) The reason God found Jesus Christ beautiful and all other babies less than attractive is not because of how they look. Babies are unacceptable to God because they are spiritually dead---born separated from God because of their sin nature (sinful flesh) --Romans 5:12, Eph. 2:1. Even though at the time of your birth/conception your father may have been saved/sealed with the Spirit and spiritually alive, this can not be passed along any more than the parents vocabulary. We are born of parents that are physically dying and that pass along spirtual death. When Adam consciously sinned he immediately died spiritually, as all his offspring came from him and not from God as Adam had been created, we receive this spiritual death from Adam. Remember Adam was not born, he was created. Adam was not 'born again' like we are when we accept Christ as atonement because he was never 'born' in the first place. Some people have the erroneous idea that the first time you sin personally, that is the moment that you die spiritually, this is not true!! Even though you are born physically alive, at the same instant you are born spiritually dead. But God does not condemn you for ACTS of personal sin. His attitude is NOT based on WHAT YOU DO, because as a newborn baby you have done nothing good or bad. God's attitude is based upon the fact that your physical body is contaminated by the sin nature. Man is born into this world with three strikes against him: Adam's original sin is imputed at birth: man inherits the nature to sin; and man eventually commits personal sin. Through physical birth, we inherit a sin nature. (The word sin translated from the Greek generally refers to the sin nature when used in the Scripture as a singular noun-Romans 7:14) The choice Adam made is the culprit (deliberate sin-he knew what he was doing) Adam chose to transgress the one law he was given, thereby acquiring a sin nature which he passed on genetically to all mankind. That is what David meant when he wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Ps. 51:5) By being born through natural procreation, David inherited a sin nature which made him a sinner. Gen. 5:3 says, " .."(Adam) had a son in his own likeness, in his own image" Adam was created in the image of God, however, at the moment he sinned he was changed forever! He was contaminated by sin, meaning he was spiritually dead and he was physically dying. We are all born with that contamination. And if you don't believe that the sin nature is passed down through the male then you can't believe that Jesus was born sinless. We are all carriers of the sinful flesh but the sin nature is transmitted only through the 23 chromosomes (I mistakenly referred to it as 26 in the first post, it is 23) that come from the male. Gen. 5:3 declares that Adam's offspring was from his likeness, (not Adam and Eve and their likeness) At physical birth Adam's original sin is imputed to us (Rom.5:12) resulting in both spiritual death and the sovereignty of the sin nature over human life. (Romans 6:12) This is by no means an exhaustive study of the Origin of Sin and related topics of sin nature vs. the Holy Spirit and as always, every one will have their own opinion of this, that is a blessing of our free will of choice!!! To give proper credit, much of the information above is derived from sermon notes acquired from the ministry of R. B. Thieme. Lori | ||
| Bill Twisse |
I haven't had free time to get on for a while but thanks for your kind words, Jude! I'll do my best to live up to those positive characteristics that you detect. The recent post on the origin of sin brings up some important issues. Please be certain that in in responding I am not being condemnatory--but stating that there is another position worthy of consideration. "Here is Biblical evidence that I have found that supports the genetic inheritance of the sin nature, as opposed to the self-acquired sin nature." Those are not our only two options. What if the sin nature comes from a third source other than genes and the self? I believe it does. You are correct in stating that Romans 5:12-20 rules out the self-acquired theory. "The old sin nature contaminates mankind so that no one can approach God's perfect essence or please Him. Although, not a part of the soul, but the center of rebellion toward God, the old sin nature seeks to influence and control the soul." Where does this dichotomy come from? Why is the sin-nature not a part of the soul? I think we need to rethink this. What you are stating is that sin is physical and not spiritual. "This depraved nature came into existence as a direct result of Adam's first sin. The old sin nature portrays the disobedient trend of Adam in action after the Fall." The second sentence is certainly true! Where is the support for the first? Romans 5:12-20 simply states that Adam represented us in his sin and that sin entered the world through him. It doesn't say that the origin of the sin-nature of all men (including his) came about from his act of eating the tree. Adam had to experience the impulse to sin before he ate. That is why I say we should not compare Christ to Adam when discussing Christ's human nature. By the way, I only know of two possible sources of that impulse--the serpent in the garden or God himself. By the way, the sin of the serpent was certainly not genetic! "The sin nature is passed from the original parents through procreation to the rest of the human race and resides in the cell structure of the body (Rom. 6:6) "For we know that our old self was crucified with him so the BODY OF SIN might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-" I have to disagree that the 'body of sin' analogy implies a genetic origin. How did the original sin change Adam's physical constitution anyway? It is certainly true that sin resides in and is at work in our bodies, as the next quotations say: "For when we were controlled by the sinful nature (sinful flesh) the sinful passions aroused by the law were at WORK IN OUR BODIES, so that we bore fruit for death." (Romans 7:5) "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature (sinful flesh) For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out." (Romans 7:18) The interpretation, though, is confusing to me: "This verse states that the desires of the mind are good, but the sinful body can not carry them out." It seems to me that something different is being said: The desires of the spiritual mind (self) are good but hindered by the carnal mind (flesh). "With the exception of Jesus Christ, every person born has an active sin nature, I was born with one; you were born with one. The sweetest baby you ever saw has a sin nature. Mothers may "ooh" and "aah" over their babies saying "Isn't he beautiful " "Isn't she adorable!" But do you know God's attitude toward babies? You may be shocked! Babies are unacceptable to God! We look at the physical appearance of a baby, but God sees the sin nature. So, no matter how many people admire the beauty and innocence of a baby, remember; only one baby has ever been beautiful to God---Jesus Christ! (Please note--this is not a statement meaning babies and children are accountable for the sin nature)" The reason God found Jesus Christ beautiful and all other babies less than attractive is not because of how they look. Babies are unacceptable to God because they are spiritually dead---born separated from God because of their sin nature (sinful flesh) --Romans 5:12, Eph. 2:1." Excellent! Sin is definitely imputed to all of Adam's descendants except Jesus Christ. I only disagree on one point: Babies and children ARE accountable for the sin nature, otherwise they would not need Christ's redemption . "Even though at the time of your birth/conception your father may have been saved/sealed with the Spirit and spiritually alive, this can not be passed along any more than the parents vocabulary. We are born of parents that are physically dying and that pass along spirtual death. When Adam consciously sinned he immediately died spiritually, as all his offspring came from him and not from God as Adam had been created, we receive this spiritual death from Adam. Remember Adam was not born, he was created. Adam was not 'born again' like we are when we accept Christ as atonement because he was never 'born' in the first place." It is certainly true that righteousness cannot be passed through the genes. I just don't believe that sin is either, since it is "spiritual wickedness." Is is possible that death passes to everyone because all men are directly accountable to God for their sin, not only because Adam sinned? We need to consider mediate imputation as an option. Adam certainly represented all of us in his sin--he portrayed what all of us would inevitably do with a sin-nature. "Some people have the erroneous idea that the first time you sin personally, that is the moment that you die spiritually, this is not true!! Even though you are born physically alive, at the same instant you are born spiritually dead." Very true. "But God does not condemn you for ACTS of personal sin. His attitude is NOT based on WHAT YOU DO, because as a newborn baby you have done nothing good or bad. God's attitude is based upon the fact that your physical body is contaminated by the sin nature." Where is this in scripture? I have to differ. All sin condemns unless Christ's blood is applied. Unless and until a person is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, the wrath of God abides on that person. "Man is born into this world with three strikes against him: Adam's original sin is imputed at birth: man inherits the nature to sin; and man eventually commits personal sin." Some of us believe that sin was imputed to us long before our birth & we are born with a sin-nature because of that. "Through physical birth, we inherit a sin nature. (The word sin translated from the Greek generally refers to the sin nature when used in the Scripture as a singular noun-Romans 7:14) The choice Adam made is the culprit (deliberate sin-he knew what he was doing) Adam chose to transgress the one law he was given, thereby acquiring a sin nature which he passed on genetically to all mankind. That is what David meant when he wrote, "I was brought forth in iniquity" (Ps. 51:5) By being born through natural procreation, David inherited a sin nature which made him a sinner." Again, we have serious differences. The issue is not whether we are conceived in iniquity but where the iniquity comes from. The culprit is not Adam's choice nor our own, but God himself! He ultimately takes responsibility for the fact that sin entered the universe. It occurred by his sovereignty, to pave the way for the mystery of redemption to be accomplished. "Gen. 5:3 says, " .."(Adam) had a son in his own likeness, in his own image" Adam was created in the image of God, however, at the moment he sinned he was changed forever! He was contaminated by sin, meaning he was spiritually dead and he was physically dying. We are all born with that contamination. And if you don't believe that the sin nature is passed down through the male then you can't believe that Jesus was born sinless. We are all carriers of the sinful flesh but the sin nature is transmitted only through the 23 chromosomes (I mistakenly referred to it as 26 in the first post, it is 23) that come from the male. Gen. 5:3 declares that Adam's offspring was from his likeness, (not Adam and Eve and their likeness) At physical birth Adam's original sin is imputed to us (Rom.5:12) resulting in both spiritual death and the sovereignty of the sin nature over human life. (Romans 6:12)" Well, scripture never compels me to believe that the sin-nature comes through the male! How does all of this operate in monkeys? I certainly believe Jesus was born sinless because that was God's sovereign purpose & plan. "This is by no means an exhaustive study of the Origin of Sin and related topics of sin nature vs. the Holy Spirit and as always, every one will have their own opinion of this, that is a blessing of our free will of choice!!! " I don't have free will of choice! I will quote Luther and say that for me, that notion is the 'devil's fiction.' --Twisse | ||
| Lori |
Yes, we do have some very serious differences!! Some of your statements are so erroneous that I must reply to them. Surely, you didn't realize what you were implying. This statement you made is blasphemy: You wrote: "The issue is not whether we are conceived in iniquity but where the iniquity comes from. The culprit is not Adam's choice nor our own, but God himself!" The culprit of sin is God himself?? God is sin?? Where is your scriptural basis for that one?? God is absolute righteousness!!! There is no sin in Him! He is not the author of sin, as you imply. You also wrote: "All sin condemns unless Christ's blood is applied." This is not scriptural! Revelation clearly tells us that not even the unbeliever will be judged for their sins, Rev. 20:11-15. Those who do not accept Christ as their substitute, will stand before Him and be judged according to their good works! Unbelievers will not be condemned for their sins. Christ died for ALL sins, not just believers sin, but ALL sins. Unbelievers will be condemned because their good works aren't good enough! You imply that sin is spiritual.....where is your Biblical support? If you believe the 'spiritual-spirit' can not be inherited (you agreed with that!) then how do you reason that the sin-spirit could be inherited? If a 'spirit' nature can be passed along, then if you are born of a spiritually alive parent then you should be born spiritually alive, by your reasoning! You also wrote "I don't have free will of choice! I will quote Luther and say that for me, that notion is 'devil's fiction'." Foreknowledge does not predestination make. You choose, by your free will, to agree or disagree with certain things on this website. That is free will. Just because I KNOW what decision my child will make if I offer him broccoli or a candy bar, does not take away his free will. Knowing my child, I KNOW that if I offer him a Milky way or Snickers.....I KNOW which one he will take.....it still doesn't remove his free will. He can still chose either one! You have posted no Scriptural basis for any opposing views that you have against what I posted. With your basic doctrines (the righteousness of God and the judgement of sin) in opposition to scripture, I will have to say I am not interested in your human viewpoint at this point, show me my misinterpretation with the divine viewpoint of the word of God. Because by God's design, I have a free will, I can chose to believe God's word or believe man's word, (if I was still following the viewpoints of man, I'd still be an Adventist!) However, my free will has chosen to stand only on the word of God! Provide Biblical support for your objections and by divine viewpoint and guidance we will 'see' the truth. Lori | ||
| Bill Twisse |
How can we bring this discussion back on track? Everyone believes that their position is scriptural & I am no exception. These issues have been going on for thousands of years. For some it may be blasphemy to imply that God is ultimately responsible for sin. For others, it is a matter of reasoning from scripture and the implications of what it means that the Lamb of God was slain before time. God is not the author of sin; i.e., he does not approve of it. He did not come up with it as a 'great idea' like humans would do. It is subservient to the purposes of redemption. But he does take sovereign responsibility for the fact that it came about. So if we are looking for someone to blame, he will take it. Don't look around for Adam to accuse. The purpose was to introduce discussion; not go through all of the scriptural arguments at this point. Right now I merely wanted to state that another position exists. To discuss all of the biblical evidence would take time & discernment. I'm going to table this one for a season as it seems to be unfruitful. --Twisse | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lori, I appreciate your mind. And also your passionate defense of the word of God as you see it. However, I do not see it as blasphemy to assert that God is ultimately responsible for sin. To state that he is is to take on some very great theologians, such as Karl Barth. I do agree with you, though, in your defense of free will. I do think Calvinism (not just hyper-Calvinism) went too far in denying human freedom. That's why I have espoused the "theology of mystery." When one end of "the far reaches" of our revealed knowledge about God disappears into mystery, let's let that mystery prevail and even honor it. After all it is God's mystery we're talking about. In our efforts to defend our "staked out" positions, we can easily go too far and end up building the "Towers of Babble" all over again. And the "theology of free will" can also go too far. I believe it has in the Western world of "natural theology," in which the philosopher takes the "scientific" stance that "you have to prove God is real before I'll believe it." This has spawned all sorts of heretical notions, such as Graham Maxwell's ridiculous conclusion that the atonement is a "moral demonstration" and that in our lifetimes we all get to "vote for God" or "vote against God"! Of course God laughs. If I were God I'd laugh too. Blessings on you and keep carrying the torch, Jude | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Lori again, While appreciating your find analytical mind, I do have some questions about genetically transmitted sin. 1. If sin can be transmitted through presumably mutant genes from the MALE, then why not also through mutant genes from the FEMALE? 2. If sin can bae transmitted through mutant genes, male or female, then shouldn't the mutant genes by scientifically discoverable? 3. If not, why not? 4. If so, do you have any evidence of such? Again blessings, Jude | ||
| Bill Twisse |
Jude, Although I'm sworn to leave the origin of evil alone for a while, I do have some observations on the difference between 'choice' and 'free will' as those terms have been historically understood. I noticed that there is a predestination topic so I will post my comments there. --Twisse | ||
| Lori |
Jude, The evidence to the genetics of sin will not be found in the versions of the English, it is in the original language, you know very well that much is lost through the English translations. I am trying to locate a tape with 'said evidence' of the location of the text. The information I previously posted were from notes, from a sermon, by a pastor that fluently speaks both ancient Greek and Hebrew and his sermons are taken directly from those languages. The direct interpretations do not make 'proper' English sentences and this accounts for some of the lose in our translations. I will post the 'proof' when I get the tape, Lori | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill, You said: "Maryann, I know that I'm serious and people often do not sense humor when I speak. Here is your smile though! ;-)" Thank you for this ;-), that made my week! Really! Maryann :-) | ||
| Bill Twisse |
ALL: Based on some of the discussion that has taken place, I feel compelled to post certain scriptures about 2 issues that have been denied. Since I am away from my home library on business I only have the NIV to work with. SIN IS A SPIRITUAL PRINCIPLE: The following scriptures illustrate that the battle against sin is spiritual, a matter of the mind, and that the spirit of man is what is to be delivered from sin. "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground." Eph. 6:12,13a "Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God." 2 Cor. 7:1 "You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness." Eph. 4:22-24 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." 1 Tim. 4:1 "Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!" Heb. 12:9 "But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect." Heb 12:23 I would encourage those interested to read these scriptures in many versions. THE EVIL WORKS OF MEN BRING GOD'S JUDGMENT: "The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness." Rom. 1:18 "For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things God's wrath comes on those who are disobedient." Eph. 5:5,6 "Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. Because of these, the wrath of God is coming." Col. 3:5,6 " . . . the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them fully." 1 Thess. 2:15,16 We will end up in hell because of our wickedness unless we receive the intervention of Christ's atoning blood and the regenerating power of the Spirit. --Twisse | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Excellent, Bill, just excellent! | ||
| Colleentinker |
Again, Bill, I totally agree. I'm increaslingly convinced that as long as we define sin as a physical defect characterized by bad behavior, we really miss the significance of what Jesus did and how truly different we are when we accept Him. If Jesus merely came to save us from our "sins", a new birth really wouldn't mean much except we believe in Jesus and now we have the power to overcome. But if Jesus came to save us from SIN, a new birth makes us a completely new creation. It's as if we are now a different race. We now have living spirits, not dead ones. We preceive spiritual things that dead spirits cannot acknowledge. If Jesus came to give us living souls/spirits, then the passage in Hebrews that says, "Where there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law," describes a whole new reality. God really did have a different standard for Israel than he has for his New Creations. The OT laws actually did allow for divorce, multiple marriages, etc. Jesus shocked and confused people when he began to teach the truth about God's law in the Sermon on the Mount. But what he said made absolutely no practical sense to the people until the Holy Spirit came and made them alive in Christ. When Jesus said lust was equivalent to adultery and hate was equivalent tomurder, he turned the Jewish traditions (God-given traditions, I might add) upside down. What God wants from us is NOT obedience to a law. He wants us to be a member of a totally new race, a race that is alive spiritually and that can recognize his voice, not just regulations. He makes us completely new. And that designation is not just metaphorical. It is absolutely real! | ||
| Lydell |
Very good Colleen! And after we become a member of that totally new race, we spend the rest of our lives learning who He declares that we already are. And that's a far better place to be in than back in the darkness of SDA land still trying to be the person we can never possibly be. Praise God for HIS work in us. |
