JUST WHAT IS THE SOUL? And where does... Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 2 » JUST WHAT IS THE SOUL? And where does it go at death? « Previous Next »

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
Archive through June 23, 2000Jeff H.20 6-23-00  3:44 am
Archive through July 31, 2000Steve20 7-31-00  10:13 pm
Archive through January 26, 2003Janice20 1-26-03  7:16 pm
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

Author Message
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, January 27, 2003 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Janice, We haven't met but I am Susan_2. I couldn't read the web or post on here for several days because my machine got unplugged and I didn't know how to hook it back up. Finilly just several hours ago I went and got the 11 year old neighbor boy and he hooked it up in about one minute. I see we are each dealing with death. My dad died in October. He was 93. Born into a SDA family and never much questioned it being the truth. His ashes are in my moms upstairs bedroom in the urn and every once in awhile my mom comments that those ashes are all that's left of Daddy. What a totally depressing religion the SDA is. I'll pray for you all to be blessed with peace in your greiving.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, everybody!

I had an interesting experience last night about which I feel compelled to share.

I am adding it to this thread because the issue was ìSoul Sleep.î However, debating this issue is not my main focus here.

My (very SDA) wife and I went to the funeral of the father of a business client in a small SDA church. Aside from the fact that I noticed not one Cross displayed in the main sanctuary (another topic for later), I noticed that there was much talk of ìSoul sleep.î

Personally, I have a view consistent with the majority views on this thread. However, I have no need to press my views on someone who believes otherwise.

As it happened, the deceased had two adult daughters who had left Adventism for Pentecostal churches. One of them was sick and had sent her pastor to represent her in the ceremony.

This was the type of ceremony where several people talked about the deceased in a ìtestimonial style.î About half of them alluded to the notion that ìhe is with Christ, now.î Certainly, the daughterís pastor made this type of statement.

Just as the service was about to end and the SDA pastor was about to begin the benediction, one of the SDA members (who we knew) became very agitated and rushed to the front.

She marched to in front of the casket, Bible opened to Ecclesiastes 9 and forcefully exclaimed that the deceased was absolutely NOT in heaven now and would not go there until the parousa. She spent a good five minutes plodding verse by verse and commenting on every phrase, ìclarifying (as she put it) the truth.î

When I saw this, I felt very sad for her. For her to grab this opportunity and drive home this discouraging message after all the encouraging things that others said speaks of a sick soul. Regardless of how we believe, I think it is inappropriate to argue divisive doctrine at anyoneís funeral.

What depth of compulsion must there have been to make her do this insult to the family?

Perhaps many in the family agreed with her, but at least one or two did not. This was THEIR DAY not hers.

I am very much aware of the ìusefulnessî of ìsoul sleepî with respect to IJ in the Adventist theology.

I suspect that my wife holds that view. However, I have no need to confront her on that issue.

What a shame that this had to disrupt the event.
Jerry (Jerry)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A little more on this:

As we prepared for bed after this, my wife, God bless her, became very sad and said, ìI really donít want you to die before me.î

It was very sweet of her, and I comforted her with assurances that I would stay with her as long as I could.

Shortly after that, we were joking about small aspects of the service that we found annoying. I said, ìIf I do die before you, promise me this:î and I asked her to see to it that a certain minor behavior be excluded from the service.

Her response was something like this: ìI may have no choice about that, besides you wonít notice it anyway.î

Now, aside from my annoyance at her willingness to concede to people, who would aggressively contravene my final wishes, I began thinking about why she was so anxious about me dying before her.

Oh sure, I would not want my wife to die prematurely. I, too, would be devastated if I lost her before I die. Nevertheless, I believe this might go much deeper than straightforward grief over the loss of a dear one.

When I thought about how she looked when she said, ìI really donít want you to die before me,î her expression was much more than a bittersweet longing for a continued good marriage. I saw desperation in her eyes that I rarely see in other Christians when they talk about the potential death of a beloved spouse.

The look corresponded to the look of the new widow at the funeral. It was not just heartfelt, deep, and understandable grief. It was desolation, lack of hope, and lack of assurance for her and me.

Moreover, wouldnít you know it, I had to come back to the lack of a Cross in the sanctuary!

(Not to mention, the teeny, tiny hidden Cross in the denominational logo on the sign outside.)

What a stark demonstration of how the watered down version of the crucifixion leads to hopelessness and uncertainty.

When my father died, many years ago, my mother was deep in grief and sorrow, as one would expect. However, in the midst of her pain was a great and abiding joy that God was true and faithful to those who believe. She knew, as flawed as my father was, that he had committed himself to belief in ìChrist and him crucified.î She knew that he was in Godís care that moment without fearing that he had not ìmeasured up to perfection.î

All of that was lacking in the funeral I attended yesterday.

All of that was lacking in the face of my dear wife last night.

And that was what disturbed me most.
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 4:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry,

Interesting comments of yours...

I recently read a funeral sermon my pastor father gave at his fathers' funeral service a number of years ago. I was struck at the almost total emphasis on "proving" that my grandfather was "sleeping" in the ground awaiting resurrection, NOT in heaven!

It was such an important, major emphasis in the sermon and seemed so joyless compared to rejoicing that he was in Jesus's presence!

I've told my husband to be sure to emphasize that I am dancing in the actuality of seeing God when I die! I don't want that other sad doctrinal type of sermon preached at my funeral!

Grace always,
Cindy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 4:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerry, I understand what you are saying, and I feel the helplessness and sadness you must feel as you feel and see your wife's fear and lack of assurance.

You're absolutely right about the SDA's twisted understanding of salvation creating desperation.

I continue to pray for your wife and also for you.

Colleen
Thomas1 (Thomas1)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 5:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After attending my Mother's and Step Father's funerals and hearing the usual "dirge" of SDA doctrine I have instructed my funeral contain only the following elements.

1. Tell all that I KNOW where I am.
2. Tell them HOW I know. and
3. Tell them how THEY can get there with complete assurnce, too.

What is a better time to preach the Gospel than when people are emotionally ready to receive hope and assurance?

One further instruction, If anyone stands and tries to present a "different" gospel ...


SHOOT THEM.

Sorry, that's the X-cop talking.

In His Grip
Always! and FOREVER!

<><
Thomas
Cindy (Cindy)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 8:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas, we also were always taught that it was a real prime witnessing time at funerals! (To get the "state of the dead" message--meaning in the ground ONLY--firmly in the minds of the gathered Non-Adventist family and friends of the deceased.

Of course, the hope of a final Resurrection was mentioned, but not before the "reassurance" that the dead loved one was just "sleeping" in the grave until Jesus woke him upon that day.

I realize also in Adventism that so much fear of "spiritualism" (talking with our dead relatives)pervades if we say we are never separated from Jesus!

Grace always,
cindy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 9:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great funeral instructions, Thomas! (I hope no one has to activate them anytime soon.)

When my father died, we asked our pastor to give a clear prsentation of the gospel, especially since many SDAs would be present. The music and the homily clearly stated that my dad was with Jesus, and the pastor talked about knowing Jesus, eternal life, and invited people to accept Christ.

It was our first non-SDA funeral, and I must say that it felt like hope and thanksgiving instead of despair and uncertainty. One Adventist friend (who has increasingly pulled away from me) said later something to this effect, "I was surprised to see how far out you have gone. I didn't actually realize you had gone that far." I know she was referring to our certainty that my dad was not M.I.A., waiting in limbo somewhere for the second coming. But my dad knew Jesus, so there is only one place he can be: with Jesus!

Praise God!

Colleen
Chris (Chris)
Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 8:35 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adventist funderals seem to lack the note of confidence and peace that is present in other Christian funerals. Oh sure, SDA funderals will include some lip service to the possible future hope of maybe someday being reunited with loved ones. But nearly everyone present understands this to mean that we may be reunited with them if both the loved one and us have lived well enough during our lifetime and if the investigative judgement shows that our good deeds have outweighed our bad deeds and if all of the specific details of those bad deeds have been confessed by us. There are so many "ifs" that it is quite impossible to have any confindence or peace. To compound the problem, SDA funerals nearly always turn into a sermon on the truth of soul sleep (especially the grave side part of the sermon where fewer outsiders are present). A couple of years ago I went to the funeral of a young friend who died of a brain anuerism. Although her family was SDA, nearly all of her friends and co-worders who attended were not. I kept wondering what they were thinking about how this servie (supposedly to celebrate her life) had become a discourse on soul sleep. The SDA pastor even read I Thessalonians 4:13,15-18 inexplicably dropping v.14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God **will bring with Him*** those who have fallen asleep in Jesus." How deceptive for those who don't know their Bibles well! Why would you do such a thing??? The final straw was when a couple got up to sing the popular Christian song "Remember Me" (Mark Schultz and Jenny Ownens I think). They changed the lyrics to this well known song to, "Remember me when the children leave their **Sabbath** schools with smiles." My thought at the time was that all this focus on being "right" on everything all the time just seemed so....so...."childish"......I still can't think of a better word.
Chris
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone, Thomas' mention of funerals brought back some memories of a year ago when I first began to post here. My father-in-law died on August 17th of last year. His son had just died on March 9th of that same year with lung cancer. It was around January of last year when I first decided to send my mother a web site like this one that revealed the lies of the SDAs and received so much ugly e-mail from my sister who all but worships EGW and thought I was really terrible by sending such offensive information. I have been so encouraged here and everything has really turned out for the best as far as I am concerned.

We are told that God must take first place in our lives, above all and if my family has disowned me because I chose to shine the light of the truth on them, then I am told to count it all joy and have also been reassured by God's own words that I will receive a reward for giving them the truth.

It was such a comfort to all of my inlaws these last couple of years as we attended the funerals of my brother-in-law, my father-in-law, Mike's two aunts and two other uncles, one of my aunts and one uncle, as we listened to every single preacher at every single funeral give the family members that blessed assurance that our loved ones were no longer suffering and were now "absent from the body and present with the Lord". We know this is true and straight from the word of God and even Mike's brother asked our pastor friend to preach the gospel message at his funeral, and praise God it happened just as I know Eddie wanted it to. Sometimes this is the ONLY time that many will ever sit in a church, so, what better time to present the gospel, amen?

I guess the strangest thing is that one of Mike's cousins is an SDA preacher, but he has never once voiced his SDA theology at any of those funerals, guess there has to be one overbearing SDA in the crowd sometimes though, huh? I can't imagine what would have happened had anyone gotten up and told us that Eddie or any of the others were in "soul-sleep" but I imagine that they would have either been laughed out of the church or else taken behind the church for an old fashioned "whoopin" of sorts, I don't think any of us would have stood for such blatant disrespect like Thomas spoke of.

I hope that my web site has been of some help to all of you. I edited a few more things a couple of days ago and have a long way to go still but please keep praying about this work that I have felt called to do. I know now that I would have never done it had I not been challenged by my family, so, maybe someday in glory, I will have someone walk up to me and say "thanks for sharing the gospel with me" and that will be worth the price that I am paying now with the shunning that I am getting by my SDA family.

God bless you all and visit me sometime at www.theLumpkinhome.com.

Sabra, you have a great site too. Keep up the good work.

Janice
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2003 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A real stupid question. Is it me or does many cults and sects make this subject of what happens to your soul after you die a salvational point. It seems to me it is. I see it as when I do die and do or do not go straight to Jesus or not. The main point is that I am saved. And on Judgement day I will be ready. Am I wrong and missing the point?
Speakeasy
Gatororeo7 (Gatororeo7)
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 6:28 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Honestly, I don't think you'r missing the point. After I made my conclusions that SDA was false, I went back and started looking over in detail their end-times scenarios. I come from a Pentecoastal/Word of Faith background (which I have had to shed just like you had to shed Adventism), and this was a huge deal. I came to the conclusion that if the Second Coming of Christ is truly the blessed hope of the church and that born again children of God are going to be in heaven anyway, who really cares what happens to my soul at death? Paul didn't agonize over this; he was eager to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. I think that should be our aim as well. All this meddling over what happens at death takes us away from the love and grace of God that says that if you are a child of God, what matters is that you'll spend eternity with Him.
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The biblical view of death is most essential to our understanding the plan of salvation. If we don't understand the nature of man (body and soul) at creation, we thereby have a serious problem in understanding the FALL OF MAN and the GIFT OF SALVATION to the human soul (inner man). Adventists merely regard salvation as an intellectual (bodily) ascent to the teachings of Christ.

In reality, they deny that there is a soul to be saved (the body is really all they have). They do not believe in the dualistic nature of man taught throughout Scripture. How can one be born again without a soul to save? If we don't have a dead, lost soul to save, we don't have a need to be born again (to become spiritually alive). As Bob George so aptly states in his book, CLASSIC CHRISTIANITY, "A dead man doesn't need help. A dead man needs life!" Consequently, under this heresy, we don't need a Savior.

Adventist dogma is predominantly visible, tangible, and external (e.g., tablets of stone, food lists, traditonal SDA standards, no soul or spirit entity, etc.) For them, only SEEING is believing. They do not trust or have faith in the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide their lives--they depend on the Torah instead. Sadly, without the Law, they claim to be left without a moral compass in their lives. It is impossible to understand Christ's atonement at Calvary without the biblical view of death.

Unquestionably, the SDA view of death is one of their most deceptive beliefs. The biblical view of death is indeed vital to our understanding the creation, fall, and redemption of mankind. Seriously, I can't think of anything more important or salvific than understanding that one's soul needs saving. Indeed, our souls or spirits desperately need a Savior.

Just as the Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirits that we are children of God, confirming His word to us (Romans 8:16), so the Holy Spirit inwardly assures us that the Bible is the Word of God.

In awe of His grace,

Dennis J. Fischer
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, I really have come to agree completely with your assesssment above. I have to say, though, that my understanding of the soul and of the nature of life, death, sin, and salvation took awhile to get into focus. After I understood what Sabbath rest was all about and was able to rejoice that I was saved, it was another year or so before I came to understand the soul and the nature of sin and the miracle of being born again.

In other words, I believe that a person can truly know Jesus and rejoice in his or her salvation before the soul makes sense. That's one of the gifts of knowing Jesus; he continues to reveal truth to us forever! And I do agree with Dennis: I've come to believe that the reality of the soul, of our having a spirit separate from our body through which the Holy Spirit communicates spiritual things, is one of the key facts in understanding why we need a Savior, why Jesus was different from any other human, and why our eternal security is just that--eternal.

I am so grateful to Jesus for holding us tightly and for continuing to wake us up to the truth he wants us to learn at each step of our lives!

Colleen
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 10:10 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

B has said that "spirit" is only breath, and our breath is what returns to God. I asked if he thought the Holy Spirit was really holy breath (since the same word for spirit is in both places), he doesn't have an explanation. When I point out that Paul was anxious to die (be with Chist) and ask why Paul would be divided (in conflict ... to stay or go) in leaving this life if he really just thought he was going to go lie in the grave? He doesn't recognize the conflict. Does Adventism deal with these questions?

In regards to the issue of the fall, B seems to blame everything on Satan (since he tempted her) with Eve's part being more minor. But I've learned studying James that we are tempted by our own lusts. So if that's true, then Eve had to be contemplating that forbidden fruit before the serpent approached her. So, though the serpent tempted her, it was her own desire that she gave into. Right? Or was she somehow incapable of temptations because of her "pre-fallen" position?? Maybe it's just how I see things this side of the fall, but Satan's arguments wouldn't have made any logical sense to me unless I was already contemplating the "why not" issue of his question. I hope any of this makes sense. It just seems to me that by blaming Satan as the instigator when we fail (because he tempted us), we are somehow minimizing our own responsibility. So, does the confusion regarding the fall and man's nature spill down into how they characterize sin and their own guilt? I read an SDA evangelist who said he had not sinned for 2 years ... and I wondered how he defined sin if he could sincerely make that statement. Isn't it all interconnected on some level? Maybe that was Dennis' point on recognizing the need for a savior and I'm just thinking out loud (or in black/white as the case may be).
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thankfully, as Colleen indicated, the Holy Spirit communicates with our souls even BEFORE we fully understand that we actually have a soul or spirit. The last sentence exhibits good Reformed theology. A cardinal point of Reformed theology is the maxim: "Regeneration precedes faith." Our nature is so corrupt, the power of sin is so great, that unless God does a supernatural work in our souls we will never choose Christ. We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again in order that we may believe.

Free will is defined as "the ability to make choices according to our desires." The concept of a "neutral free will," (like our SDA friends and others believe) a will without prior disposition or inclination, is a false view of free will. It is both irrational and unbiblical.

Fallen man is still free to choose what he desires, but because his desires are only wicked he lacks the moral ability to come to Christ. As long as he remains in the flesh, unregenerate, he will never choose Christ. He cannot choose Christ precisely because he cannot act against his own will. He has no desire for Christ. He cannot choose what he does not desire. His fall is great. It is so great that only the effectual grace of God working in his heart can bring him to faith.

Dennis J. Fischer
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 6:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

But I guess my question is Why does so many Cults focus on things like the Rapture and what happens after you die and the sign of the Cross and Observing Christmas and Easter and worshipping on certain days these are always tied into saying that we are being lead by the Catholic Satanic System and all are also tied into sometype of you must come out of the great whore of babylon to get the correct Salvation you need. I would love to see a thread on that Subject "Come out of her my People, Come out of the Great whore of Babylon" Who and what is the great whore? I just don't understand why all the cults say that all these things are salvational points. When Paul makes it so clear on what the Gospel is.
Speakeasy
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 9:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From my perspective, they focus on those things that most of us would call non-essentials to take our mind off Christ...most specifically his full diety and sufficiency to save us and to keep us from fulfilling his great commission. I would even be willing to presume that many of the personalities who start such groups (either intentionally or not) are sincere about their belief in what they are saying and I don't know that many of them started out to "create" a different "denomination" as many of them call themselves. But as is mentioned in other threads, Satan is behind the beginnings of these groups. Satan's goal is to destroy us. We should never forget that. He uses many methods. It's hard to defeat a unified army, so he starts by division, then as he breaks us down into smaller and smaller units until we're easier to conquer. I think he uses (at least) two human emotions to push people to action: fear and pride. People fear not going to heaven and people like knowing something that others don't. So, he brings in confusion about non-essentials, which seems to cause people to polarize around something absolutely pointless to argue and division is begun.

[crawling upon my soapbox....]

That method happens in today's churches where people argue over the carpet color or music style. Don't we look appealing to lost people when they come into our midst? Aren't we positioned to meet their needs and show them Christ with that kind of friction? That is how some denominations got started, but fortunately they stay true to essentials of the faith. And while I'm making huge generalizations here, if you want to get sprinkled rather than immersed...there are church's for that. If you want to raise your hands and shout hallelujah, there are churches for that. If you want to have a very quiet, reverential services, there are churches for that. But to the extent those churches stay true to the gospel, God doesn't care what their worship style is. The Bible doesn't dictate "how" we worship, just that we do.

[crawling down from my soapbox and moving on...]

Once he gets a little group of "well meaning" people to believe his lie, he has created his own little army to lead people astray "in the name of" Christ/God. Then they just seem to take a life of their own. Just to use Adventism, it started with people trying to save face after "the great disappointment". Those people took an unscriptural position that "they would know", though the bible says no man will know. They polarized and when their message wasn't accepted in their own churches, they created their own. And since their pretext (the presumptions they brought into their thinking) was that God was leading them, they had to search for what 'he' was doing and all kinds of errors started. They already had a foundation of faulty scripture study, and using that method, they made the Bible say exactly what their pretext said it would. As you get spin-offs of spin-offs, it gets stranger and stranger. Its like the game we played as a child where I tell one person something at the beginning of the line and we see how accurate the message is when it gets to the end. JW and Mormons will both quote scripture to you. It's out of context and strung together with other verses that are completely unrelated, but if you're ignorant and vulnerable, a questioning person isn't going to know any differently.

Satan works little deception by little deception. When you're not properly anchored in the WORD, you're in a dangerous place. Fortunately, many churches keep returning to their anchor and you see that in the continuity of the historic, orthodox Christian faith. But these spin-off groups were not properly anchored and floated away from the truth, presuming they were in it somewhere in their past. Once these groups get an anchor, like the book of Mormon or watchtower, they stay within some bounds, but they're anchored to error then, and not truth. Tradition, ignorance, fear, pride, etc. keep them there.

Such a long-winded response to say I don't think Satan works any differently outside the church than he does in it. But you have to know where your anchor is and always come back to it. Unfortunately, that doesn't always happen.

The reference to the "Catholic Satanic System" is just a fear tactic to keep people paralyzed in a belief structure. But we know the real author of lies is Satan himself, not a man-made organization. Paul said that he becomes all things to all people so that he might win some. Satan, the great imitator, does the same thing but it's all about diversion away from Christ.

My thoughts, for what they're worth.
Speakeasy (Speakeasy)
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The idea of the great whore and the church being the Harlots of the whore of babylon is an intimidating idea. I have tried to see if it could be anything else and it's hard to see the Harlots not being the church system. It has been taught as far back as probably the churchs in America were founed that the great Whore is the Roman Catholic System wouldn't it make since to have all the churchs that are also in America and around the world be part of that system of being the Harlots of the Whore of Babylon because we know all the christian churchs no matter what denomination has been apart of the Roman Catholic system. Does anybody out there have agood study on what is the Great Babylon Whore and all of the Harlots and what people is the bible talking about when you see "My people,Come out of Her" doesn't this topic kind of stir up your mind on what is this all about?
speakeasy
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, we won't truly know the full identity of those symbols (the whole, hartlot, etc.) until their fulfillment. This is what we can know: They will be opposed to Christ and him crucified as the only way to God.

In the end, we will have to choose to be true to Jesus and to honor our relationships with him, or we will choose to be manipulated by political or religious pressure to embrace something other than Jesus and the clear gospel.

I think it's OK not to know the true identities of the symbols in Revelation until the time comes for their fulfillment. We know what we need: Jesus must be our only identity and our true loyalty. Anything that draws us away from serving and honoring him is a deception.

Praise God that he will never let us go!

Colleen
Windmotion (Windmotion)
Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 6:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Speakeasy, I know a lot of people have studied those controversial subjects A LOT more than I have and have all come up with different conclusions. I think it is enough to know what the different ideas are and pick the one that seems to make the most sense to you. But I don't think most of what Christians argue about are doctrinal issues that will keep them out of Heaven. Once you understand the grace of God, and once you understand the love of God, you have all you need.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 4:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would someone please tell me Bibically the difference between the words soul and spirit? The sda's will forever quote, "and God breathed into Adam and he became a living soul". My mom will insist that the soul then is a living body as opposed to a dead body. I just tell her I don't know anything about the terms and what they mean but obiveouselly there must be a difference because Paul lamented over longing to be apart of his body and being with Jesus or still being here on earth to continue the work that he needed to do.
Melissa (Melissa)
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Greek, soul is (Strongs #5590) psyche. It is defined as life, soul; heart, mind; a person; the immaterial (and eternal) part of inner person, often meaning the animate self which can be translated by pronouns: "my soul" = "I, myself".

Spirit is (Strongs #4151) pneuma. It is defined as wind, breath, things which are commonly perceived as having no material substance; by extension: spirit, heart, mind the immaterial part of the inner person that can respond to God;spirit being, (evil) spirit, ghost, God the Holy Spirit.

That is the New Textament.

For the Old Testament: Soul is #5315 nepes
Spirit is #7307 ruah. See the following for specifics.

I will use information from a book called "Resurrection" by Hank Hanegraaff because he makes some interesting points I think the English translation reader misses. In Genesis 1:20 and 1:24, the word that is translated "living creature" in NKJV is the same word translated as 'living being' in Genesis 2:7. This I have verified in my Strongs Dictionary. The word is #5315 nepes. It is translated a number of different ways. The word is sometimes soul, but can also mean life, being, living thing, creature or person depending on context. If 'breath of life' is what creates nepes (5315), then animals have nepes (5315) without a breath of life. At least, one isn't mentioned in Genesis. But the discussion in the book raises Eccles.3:19-21. It says that animals and man both have "one breath" (NKJV). So, does that indicate that animals did get a breath of life, just not mentioned in Genesis?? Reading into vs 21, it says that the spirit of men goes upward and the spirit of animals goes down to the earth. But the Hebrew word in these verses is not the same as Genesis, but is #7307 'ruah'. The definitions are largely the same, but I hate to make any dogmatic arguments on differing words.

When B and I had these discussions early on, he constantly confused soul and spirit. He kept saying that soul could also be translated breath, but you see from the above definitions, that is true of spirit, not soul. I used to ask him if he was really saying the Holy Spirit was really Holy Breath because the same word for spirit elsewhere in scripture is also the same word in Holy Spirit.

The confusion begins, in my opinion, with the translation of sheol to grave in the Old Testament. It is not consistent, but that word makes people tend to think about the plot out at the cemetary. That can't be. Consider the context of Genesis 37:25. Jacob thinks Joseph has been eaten by wild animals, yet he says he is going to "go down into the grave to my son in mourning...." He's can't be talking about a plot of earth because that's not where he thinks Joseph is.

Consider Genesis 35 at the death of Rachel. In verse 18 it says "And so it was, as her soul was departing (for she died), that she called his name....". Rachel died and her soul departed. If her soul just went to the grave with the body, or ceased to exist, I don't understand where it departed to seemingly while she was dying, before she was buried.

Those seem to be philosophical arguments, though, and not particularly teaching on the topic. There are others I could cite, but trying not to get too long winded.

B loves to quote "the dead know nothing" as though it is a teaching text as well. Since the context is "everything under the sun" the most I can get from this verse is that the dead can't see what's going on on earth, but it does not speak to what is going on after they've gone "to the dead" vs 3. There certainly have to be clearer texts than this one.

I think about when Jesus appeared to his disciples after his resurrection. He says to them in Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have." Though it is not teaching about life after death either, Jesus certainly is not saying spirits do not exist without a body.

It gets closer in 1 Thessalonians 4:14. The verse specifically says he will "BRING WITH HIM those who sleep in Jesus". He's talking about the resurrection here. What is he bringing with him? In vs. 16 he says the dead will rise first. So, is he going to bring them with him or are they going to rise first? The ONLY way I can make sense out of that passage is that our soul is "in paradise" while our bodies are wherever they are...land, sea, digested, whatever. He brings our souls, He descends with a shout, he raises or bodies, and the living get caught up last. Where do I get that the soul is "in paradise"? Well, he told the thief on the cross he would be with him in paradise, but also there is the little story in Luke about Lazarus.

B and I have argued over that story until we are blue in the face. But I have taken extensive time studying Luke.

Strongs dictionary defines parable as "a proverbial saying used in wisdom and prophetic discourse or a story in which things in the spiritual realm are compared with events that could happen in the temporal realm; or an earthy story with a heavenly meaning. It differs from a fable, myth, allegory, or proverb. A Characteristic teaching method of Jesus."

But let's consider the book of Luke. There are 19 stories listed as parables in the book. They include:

The wise and foolish builders
Two debtors
The rich fool
The servants waiting for their Lord
Barren fig tree
The sower
Mustard seed
yeast
Good Samaritan
Friend at Midnight
Great supper
Lost sheep
Lost piece of money
Prodigal and his brother
the unjust steward
Richman and Lazarus
importunate widow
Pharisee and Tax Collector
The pounds
Wicked farmers

(Titles as identified by strongs...I called them differently in my personal studies.) As I studied every single parable, EVERY ONE was a story that could happen in real life. Read all of the circumstances...lost coins, unfair employers, unbalanced scales, mustard seeds growing, fig trees not producing...every one. The only one I can't identify by earth is Lazarus. I've never died. But if every other single parable in that book (and I haven't gone beyond Luke to study those parables in the other gospels, not mentioned in Luke) is a story that is real, why in the world am I supposed to think Jesus suddenly started using lies to reveal truth? The very purpose of a parable is to teach a lesson based upon circumstances people can relate to. B says Jesus was ridiculing the pharisees in this passage because they believed in life after death, but I don't see Jesus doing that. It's inconsistent with every other parable in the book of Luke. So, while the main story is not to teach about life after death, as all the other stories used real-to-life situations, I can only presume that consistency includes Lazarus and the rich man. As a minor aside, Jesus never identifies a number of the stories listed above as "parables". Sometimes it says "he told them a parable", other times he just starts in with the story. There are some scholars who say unless he said he was telling a parable, the stories might have been real situations he was relating. It doesn't matter to me if it was a parable or if he really knew people in these situations...except here. He does not identify this as a parable. So, is he creating an illustration or re-telling a situation he has see first hand? That's for the scholars to argue. I only know I don't think Christ suddenly changed his methods of using parables, and I don't think he is going to use lies and impossibilities to teach truth.

Finally,Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." If a dead body means no soul, then those who killed the body did kill the soul...right?

There are other passages which I think are far plainer. You mentioned one...the greek is explicit, I am told, that being with Christ is "much rather better". There is no time delay built in. It is continuous action, one or the other. (such as in/out, off/on, up/down)

Maybe someone else can pick up here or I can finish it later. It's after midnight here, and I need to get to bed. I know this is long. I read it over, and it seems to make sense, but it is late. I welcome any thoughts if I've mis-represented scripture because I would never ever want to do that. It is just a topic I've had to study to get on track with B. My church has never really spent long hours on the state of the dead. And frankly, I don't think I'm going to live my life any differently whether I go instantly or if I "sleep". But I know it is a hot button for SDAs.

But it is a start...hope it helps a little.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 11:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I think you did a great job discussing "soul" and "spirit". I understand our soul to be the part of us that makes us uniquely us. Spirit, I understand to be the part of us that connects to the Holy Spirit when we are born again. It's the part of us that knows God and loves him and understands spiritual things when we become spiritually alive at the time of our new birth.

Before our new birth, our spirits are dead, even though our bodies are alive. Our eternal life begins when our spirits come alive by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Nothing can destroy "us", our souls, after we are born again. We become part of God's family, and we are eternally safe in him through Christ.

There certainly are details about these things that we can't hope to understand as long as we're in our physical "tents", as Paul called the body. And clearly, our resurrection bodies will enable us to function in both the physical world as well as in the spiritual world as Jesus does in his resurrection body.

Praise God for bringing us to life!

Colleen
Janice (Janice)
Posted on Monday, September 01, 2003 - 11:12 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello to everyone, hope you are enjoying the holiday. I just wanted to mention that Romans 8:28 has become a daily verse to quote and after reading this thread, I have come to the conclusion that "were it not for some person challenging our faith, arguing with us as it were, we would not be here sharing all of this great information with each other.

I look back at this past 1 1/2 years and see that I have learned volumes from this web site alone and pray that I have shared something of equal importance with you all as well. I really don't think that I would have ever found all the web sites on my own, you have been a WELL of information and have helped me to grow a lot.

Let me sort of "recap" what happened to me this last year or so since joining FAF.

On March 31 of 2001, I lost my job and purchased a computer and went to college to earn my Computer Applications Certificate. Shortly after that, my mother and sister (both SDA) also got online. My younger sister, the alcolholic, had been using a computer for years with her job in Atlanta but preferred "chat rooms" to family conversations. My mom and sister then began to correspond by e-mail.My mother had used a computer for years on her job but wasnít very familiar with online things but tried to keep in touch with the e-mail part of it. She sent me a post card online from an SDA web site and a month or so later, I decided to search for that same web site and return a card to her. It was at that time that I found many sites on Adventism, both pro SDA sites and sites like the FAF. I found one that was an apologetic that earmarked many of the false teachings of EGW which reminded me of a book that I had purchased a couple of years earlier when trying to witness to my mother who had just joined SDAs after bringing all of us up as Baptists. I decided that it was ìdivine providenceî and sent the web site URL to my mother in an e-mail and made mention of the book that I had given to her ìThe Kingdom Of The Cultsî that contained many of the same things that this site had on it.

My mother is not a ìspiritually strongî person and when it comes to defending the SDAs, she chooses to pass the ball over to my sisterís court. That was what happened, I was bombarded with loads of e-mail from my sister that scolded me on a daily basis for trying to ìconfuseî my mother. I was warned about the consequences of continued efforts to shake their faith and told not to send any thing else to either of them pertaining to ìreligionî of ìanyî kind. I was told that my concern was ìduly-notedî and it just got worse and worse until I found the FAF and began to relate my story to all of you here.

To add to all of this discomfort of trying desperately to reach my SDA family, my husband was losing his brother to lung cancer, our bills were skyrocketing after my job layoff, I was stressing over learning this computer and doing homework, and our church was also going through some pretty tough times. Seeing the ìwars and rumors of warsî on the news daily and the horror of 9-11 only heightened my concern for my family who readily admitted that we ìcould NOT knowî where our souls would spend eternity, and after sending a letter to my sister that included an in-depth study of I John that plainly says that ìthese things are writtenÖthat we CAN knowî and getting a letter stating ìyour concern is duly notedî only added to my stress.

I could go on and on in great detail as to the many different trials that I have had to face since that time in my life that I began pouring my heart out to all of you, but the bottom line is this: The heartache of dealing with ANY cult group that opposes the simple teachings of Jesus Christ and tries to turn others away from the simplicity of the gospel has only served to make us stronger.

How many of you would be spending all of the hours at a computer, studying from all of the web sites, gaining all of this information and passing it along to others, HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR SUCH STUBBORN PRIDE THAT CONTINUALLY MYSTIFIES US WHO KNOW THE TRUTH? Wouldnít most of us still be lost had someone not ìsharedî the gospel with us? This is why we must continue to DEFEND the true gospel while EXPOSING the false ones, be it the SDAs, the Jehovahís Witnesses, the Mormons, or the whosoevers mentioned in Revelation 22:15 who will not enter into the heavenly kingdom as they believed. (For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.)

I will end this post by saying that I have never intentionally tried to make my struggles seem worse than any of yours, but it is just that my family was NOT raised in the Adventist life-style, we were raised in a Baptist home even though we werenít that strong in the faith. The gospel was preached to me and my family and that is why I am so stunned that the SDAs were able to lure my sister away with all their lies and apostasy, who in turn was able to get my mother caught up in the lies and deceit as well. I ask that you each pray for them as I continue to pray for all of you as you continue to grow in knowledge.

Knowledge of what Godís word truly says has provided me with such strength and peace that all I want to do now is pass that joy and peace on to a lost and dying world even though my family has shunned me. I have an eternal family that has held me up these last couple of years, and I am proud to include all of you in that family.

I am praying that all of you continue to grow in grace as you continue to grow in knowledge of Godís word that brings peace that surpasses understanding. Amen.

Janice
www.theLumpkinhome.com

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration