| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, Max wound me up and I spun a new thread. It ended up being a blessing to me and I hope it has a similar effect on you all, should it apply. This is important enough to move a few post's in order to have context. Here's what started it: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "By Max on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 02:05 pm: Should we forgive the unrepentant?" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "By Patti on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 02:09 pm: "Always, Max. Sometimes we have to do it by faith. We pronounce forgiveness when we do not truly feel like it. We cannot trust our feelings. "Forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors." We must never forget that while we were yet sinners (rebellious, unrepentent, unconcerned) Christ died for us." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "By Max on Friday, June 16, 2000 - 02:29 pm: What about the woman whose drunken husband asks her to forgive him just before he beats her senseless yet again? He does this every night. She has to get up early every morning, take four small children (by a previous marriage) to day care, work all day in a sweat shop and come home to the same situation. She is losing her life due to bruises, stress, lack of sleep, and overwork. And poor nourishment -- because most of the money she earns, her unemployed husband spends on alcohol. But, although she knows she is losing her life due to this situation, she's afraid to die. Because she knows that after she's dead, her children will be even more defenseless against their step-father. For, instead of caring for them, he only rapes them all, every chance he gets -- both the two little boys and the two little girls -- and then blames THEM for "tempting" him. And here he comes again tonight, drunk, wanting sex, saying, "Let's all forgive each other" -- "before I rape the kids and beat you senseless." Now, should she continue to forgive him? I'm serious. Max" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Max, *Please keep in mind as you read this that I had to stop writing in the middle of this for nearly a day to take care of my own dirty laundry!* Wow, tough question and a can of worms! Okay, I'll give you my personal view from experience. I will tell of the emotions and thoughts that I went through in a particular situation and will try to be as tactful and delicate as possible in doing so. Dec. 22, 1983. Mom had come to visit me for Christmas. We went to town and bought some material for new curtains for my trailer. I got a few clothes too (still have them too!). We stopped at Wendy's on the way home and gorged ourselves on burgers. (it, BTW, took me about 12 years to ever go into that same Wendyís!) Home was about 80 miles away and it was about 8pm when we left. We were planning Christmas etc and arguing about how to build the curtains. So, happy as larks, we sped into the out skirts of the small town I lived in. As we neared home, I spotted red flashing lights. My heavy foot got very heavy, very fast and we made the last 3 miles faster than humanly possible. There were gravel roads and lots of intersections to broad side through. As I slid into the yard this is what greeted me: My home, my trailer, my possessions, my CAT GONE! Burned completely to the ground! Nothing but dripping, smelly, burnt possessions and melted and twisted metal. It was already roped off, so I couldn't even look for my cat, Olí Yeller. My first re-action was my usual. Laughter! Yeh, I know, I'm crazy. I said, well I had to clean house and now I don't, ain't that cool? I finally started to come un-corked when I realized OlíYeller was burned up. There was NO comforting in any humor over that! My employer, a 65 year old horse person we'll call Joe, had offered me a partnership in a shady horse business, which included a move to Calif. and I said NO! I had seen him shyster money from many of the locals and I wanted NO part of this. He was angry that I refused to be his partner. When I had to move from where I was at, Joe offered to let me park my trailer on his property and in fact moved it for me. (Probably in hopes that he could change my mind.) Now with no home, Mom and I were forced to accept the offer to stay in his trailer. The fire dept. was supposed to do an investigation, but they never did? It took six days for the rope to come down so I go through the rubble looking for the cat remains and the few things that weren't burned up like metal and porcelain items. Finally, when I was able to worked my way though the rubble, I would come across bits and pieces of my life. A set of Courier and Ives dishes, all busted up. I got the set from Momís lady friend that flew airplanes with Charles Lindbergh and Amelia Earhart. The charred remains of some aprons all the brides maids wore after my aunts wedding back in the 30s along with other neat little doo dads. My Momís Bible from my brotherís deceased Father. A keepsake box. My favorite dress. A stack of records, 33s and 78s about 3 feet tall. The 78 record that I still miss is Seven Lonely Days and Seven Lonely Nights from the 30s, that I hope our favorite Forum heretic can find for me:-) A, cut out by the root, ingrown toenail that caused me to have such an infection as a kid, it could have killed me, on top of causing me to walk on the side of my foot for so long that I slightly deformed my ankle. Get the picture? A lot of ìearthly ì treasures, dreams and memories, GONE. A great big praise was that for some reason, I had stored a few things at a friends house before I moved the trailer. Things like my Gt. Grandfathers 1860s violin, my accordion, family photoís and important papers all survived because of this ìquirk of Godís fateî. Back to the cat. I never found OlíYeller in the trailer remains. Right from the first day, Joe kept saying that the cat probably escaped from the trailer and was just hid out. I couldnít believe this. There was absolutely no way out of that trailer unless he was let out. Finally, I ran an add and reward and low and behold, Olí Yeller had been across the street for all these three weeks! What a reunion! This whole fire thing was starting to smell really bad to me. Joe told the cops and firemen that he knew who had done this deed. The individual that he was blaming had a rock solid alibi though. Every time I went to call the fire Marshall, Joe took the phone away from me. Then I had some veiled threats about this Maffia hit man that would come out and keep me from messing up an arson investigation. That didnít scare me till I saw this guy I was threatened with show up on the evening news accused of killing someone locally! I very quickly became a believer! This Joe fella was absolutely NO GOOD! By this time, end of January, I was positive that Joe was the ìfire bugî. I figured out why too. He informed me that, ìnow that you donít have anything, you will have to come to Calif. with meî. I was very good with horses and was an asset to him. He had trained me to ride ìhis wayî and I was just about to break into the ìshow circuitî. He had some injuries that really slowed him down, so what better deal could he arrange than to force me into a partnership so I could do all the work! Besides, there were a couple other things that really incriminated him. I pumped up my ìback boneî and told him that he pushed just a little to hard and I would not change my mind and was going to stay. Not only that, I was going to buy his 2 ‡ acres! He had a cow! He told me how stupid it was to think that I could buy his place when I literally didnít have a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of! He gave me 4 weeks to come up with the money! An hour past the agreed hour of the last day of the last week, I found private financing! I was ecstatic! It was short lived though. Joe decided that since I went 1 hour past 4 weeks, I needed to pay a penalty. He had all the cards, so I asked what the penalty was. What this guy wanted, was my very good two year old Paint Stallion!!!!!!!!! So before he would sign over the papers on the property at the price we had agreed on, he forced me to sign over my prized stallion. (I still had my old Stallion Iíd had since I was a kid. He fortunately didnít want him.) As you can imagine, living under the same roof as this cold, hard hearted arsonist for about two months, gave me some real ìwilliesî! He watched my every move. I ignored it outwardly and showed absolutely NO FEAR, but was really scared spitless inside. I slept with one eye open, believe me! About the time Joe was leaving town, my bank manager friend told me that Joe had come in with a check from his insurance company and cashed it! IT WAS $4500.00! Do you know what it was for? My trailer!!! Grrrrrrrr! Not only did he burn me out, he cashed in on MY loss and claimed it as his. By this time, I was scared enough of him to, just let it go! Now let me tell you how this effected my emotions and life. For about 3 years, every single solitary day that I came home from work, I nearly puked. My heart thumped and jumped. I would strain my eyes as I came over the mountain from work to see if there was a plume of smoke or red flashing lights. It was awful! If a large dust devil was near my house, I was sure that it was fire and would break all speed laws by 40 or 50 mph to get close enough to see. I went though this even when I went to town locally. After the first three years or so, this fanatical fear started to subside. It went to a normal fear for the next 7 or 8 years and did subside a bit over those years. Since moving to Las Vegas in 1994, I have had only about 100 or so bad bouts of fear involved with thinking my house was burned down. In fact, the last one was just last week! Now let me tell you what my anger and rage did to me. And this is where I need to tell you as much as possible and still be a bit delicate. I spent two years dreaming about the things I wanted to do to this guy. I would tell, in graphic detail, my dream to anyone that would listen, from co-workers to friends. I would actually visualize this so much and realistically that I would sweat from being so pumped. I wanted to get Joe and stake him naked by a fire ant hill. Then I would take 2 or 3 days torturing him. This was what I was consumed by and what I thought of daily and sometimes hourly. I had a list of ìdullî tools that would be needed and things like pliers and tweezers too. My idea was to start at his toes and pull all the hairs from his toes and feet (slowly). Then carve out a toenail or two. Then find something else of interest like eye brows and pull them and then dig out a few fingernails (slowly). Then the eye lashes and nose hairs.... those were really special thoughts! Then all these different things needed more attention, so back to pulling nails and various hair. On occasion I would have to give him a drink, so I figured a few 55 gallon drums full of water would do for a BIG drink once in a while. In my mind, we are well into the second day. Olí Joe has been really worrying what other targets might catch my fancy. Letting him worry was part of the fun as I had really worried about when I was going to have another fire! Finally the dream was to check and see if he was a ìtrue Jewî and if he wasnít, remedy this with the dullest knives I had. As one could imagine, once a whittling project gets started, one MUST finish it! Now this was supposed to take at least a day. When the whittling was finished, the last things were the branding and the eye plucking as I dreamed to use Joeís own branding irons on him. After about two years of this, I started to think less and less of these wicked, evil, treacherous thoughts. One day about then, I went out and looked at my beloved old Stallion. (The one Iíve written about on other threads) He was really big time sick. He had a whole bail of hay in his corral that I hadnít given him. It had a chemical poison on it. He got so hot that he was permanently sterile. His whole body swelled up really bad. After the poison started to leave and the swelling went down, his hide (I said hide not hair!) started to fall off in sheets. It was awful. I should have had him put to sleep then but just couldnít bear to. I put off the dirty deed till 1988. Just a couple days after Thunder got sick, a trusted friend told me that Joe had been in town and had been around my place. My only logical conclusion was that Joe came back and poisoned my horse. I felt validated in my suspicions when a month or so later, Joe called me out of the blue and the first thing he asked was, ì howís the old horse, did he die?î Needless to say, all my dreams of wicked things to do to this guy started all over again with vengeance! This continued longer that I care to admit. It was like, if you mess with me thatís one thing, you mess with my animals, you better never show up around me again. That was about 1985 and that was the last time I ever personally heard from Joe! Why this long drawn out ugly story? Well, for one thing, I really didnít realize how angry I still was at this guy. My fingers just wouldnít stop typing! I was just telling someone about Joe poisoning my horse last Sunday and made mention of the trailer being burnt just 3 or 4 days ago to a friend! You bet Iím still angry. A few line above, I was hit by a laser beam of revelation and conscience. I was grabbed by my well sharpened ìcow hornsî. I MUST forgive Joe! Joe, I donít imagine is still alive. He had some health problems that probably got him some years back, though I really donít know. That doesnít matter does it? MAX...You really did me an unknowing favor when you brought up this line of thought! Thank you for eternity and more! I had to take a long break from writing and consider just how, even though nearly 17 years has passed, I have harbored a lot of nasty venom and hatred over this incident. I had to have a conversation with God and ask for forgiveness for the evil, and I mean EVIL, thoughts Iíve had all these years. Sure, they had softened, but they were still there. It is like a weight has been lifted off me! ;-) BTW, I would never have done those evil things in real life that I was describing!!!!! In thinking about this yesterday and most of today, a lot of things have come to mind. One can ask the question about if we are to forgive the un-repentant. My answer in the short form.....YES! My answer in the long form.....In pondering my situation, I realize that what was done to me was done to my possessions. Then something was done to my best animal friend. All these things are God given, BUT, they are just temporal things. They come and they go. Petís die and become one with the earth eventually. They donít go to heaven. At the second coming or resurrection, I wont have a U-Haul hooked up and say, ìhey Jesus, see all the goodies Iím bringing along!î There are many, many, many people reading this that have experienced, personal tragedy. Tragedy that didnít affect temporal things like I experienced. Wives being beat by husbands, brotherís molesting sisters, children being abused in many forms such as beatings, cigarette burns, verbal abuse and sexual abuse. Aging parents being abused by their children. The examples could go on for pages. Those things are being done to human beings that are made in the image of God. These are souls. In the case of abused children, these children get a very sick view of GOD from their father and even mother. They may never accept God as a loving God because of their childhood experiences. If they accept God, they will probably fight God all their life because of the, burned into their very beings, FEAR of Him. My above story, sad as it was, didnít demonstrate the kind of agony that some of you have and are still experiencing. My pain was great. My fear was greater. My hatred was greatest. BUT, the fact was, these were done to temporal objects, NOT children or adults that are made in Godís image. I canít pretend to understand your particular pain because I canít. If I went though those awful evil thoughts and emotions over posessions and an animal, Iíd really hate to hear what some of yíallís thoughts have been when human beings have been abused! I can only testify to you, right now, today, this minute that I have a peace about Joe and what he did to me and my temporal things. It is wonderful:-) Nearly 17 years of hanging on to something that I should have tossed Godís way a long, long time ago. There is no sin that Christ didnít die for un-conditionally . That includes un-repentant sin. There is no sin that is to great for God to forgive un-conditionally. There is no sin done to any of us that God wont forgive un-conditionally. Therefore, there is NO sin that we, un-conditionally forgiven by God, should not also un-conditionally forgive! Should an abused wife un-conditionally forgive an abusing husband that molest's her kids? You bet your bootie. Should she stay around for more abuse or allow him to abuse her children? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Grrrrrrrrrrr, to anyone that thinks that she should! Her relationship with God and the grace to forgive him is NO sentence for her to remain with an abuser? That is NOT Biblical! Never was and never will be! Now, what about the poor kids whoís parents both abused them? I have no answer except that it is an all to common tragedy and is living proof of what an awful thing sin is! When these kids grow up, if they do, and if they become Christians, they then have the responsibility to un-conditionally forgive their parents because God un-conditionally forgave them. Un-conditional forgiveness resulting in un-conditional love, in my opinion, is the greatest fruit of the Spirit. You donít have to love the deeds but you must love the part of that person that is the soul. Upward and onward............Maryann | ||
| Richard, Jr. |
Cindy just typed out a real long message on forgiveness. Is there anyway we can retrieve it? Did she hit something wrong? Or is it this web page? All of a sudden everything went blank. | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Cindy, DON'T back out of anything!!!!!!!!!!!! Hit your FORWARD button and you should get it back. I lost a ton of stuff this way. I found that if I hit my "back space" key, I loose everything. Just simply hit the FORWARD as many times as it takes to get your screen back!! Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, Thanks for the info. I will try that next time! I suppose I've lost this past post, though. But just very briefly, I know that forgiveness is a very hard thing to do; a superhuman task only God can really do for us if we desire it. And it is a slow process, unforgiving thoughts coming back to haunt us when we thought we had gotten beyond them! Forgiving is not forgetting. We remember the pain and hurt and still choose to forgive. Forgiving seems unfair, revenge seems sweet!! But in reality, to live in hate replays that pain over and over in our minds. I have been there too. Probably we all have our own varied stories of disloyalty, injustice and pain to recite. Only forgiveness can free us. I like what Lewis Smedes says in his books on forgiveness (Forgive and Forget? and The Art of Forgiving); "to forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you". And most importantly, we forgive as we sense we have been forgiven. Only the surpassing Grace of God gives us the motivation and reason to forgive. As Smedes writes, "To forgive is to dance to the beat of God's forgiving heart." What a story you shared. Thanks, Maryann. Living in His forgiveness always, Cindy | ||
| Lydell |
Cindy, I especially liked the quote "to forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you." Excellent. That is exactly what happens when we forgive. Our feelings of anger and hurt don't afect the other person at all, but they will definitely slowly poison us. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lydell and Cindy, I wrote a short post last night about forgiveness and when I pre-viewed, I thought I was at post this message and burned the whole thing! :-( Bet I don't do that again!!! To try to re-construct here: That first post of mine got a bit lengthy and I had that "conscience attack" in the middle of it, so didn't cover forgetting. This is what is so neat about this Forum; there is always someone to fill in the holes as the appear. I believe that one of the greatest fruits of the spirit is forgiveness. If you kill someone's only child, those parents will ALWAYS see that empty chair, missing face in the family photo, lack of grand kids etc. They can forgive fully. BUT they will never forget! There are those that are into the "New Age, Self Help, Love The World And Be At Peace With Everything In It". I'm NOT in any way considering the "Self Propelled Forgiveness" here! As Cindy pointed out: "I like what Lewis Smedes says in his books on forgiveness (Forgive and Forget? and The Art of Forgiving); 'to forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you'." In my above story, I was a prisoner for nearly 17 years. I was poisoning myself all those years, big time! I never really wanted to forgive Joe! Disecting him in my mind gave me a lot of pleasure!! If I was to feel bad about my loss, I might as well be picturing him getting his 7 fold back!!! After all, it WAS my right. Wrong! Thinking back to the story. I want to really emphasize why I wrote that stuff. I WANT ANYONE THAT HAS HAD THOSE KIND OF THOUGHTS TO UNDERSTAND THAT THEY ARE NOT LONE RANGERS! Christians CAN have those kinds of thoughts! Awful as my thoughts were, they were sin just like any other sin in God's eyes. God has forgiven you of those kinds of thoughts just like any so-called "little" sin we do. All sin, past present and future, was paid in full, 2000 years ago. Complete forgiveness was in effect all those 2000 years ago. It is just waiting for us to do the "work" of John 6:28-29, which is "believing". Forgiving Joe the other day didn't make me a better Christian! It didn't make me more cool in God's sight. I was already perfect in God's sight because of my belief! What it did was tear down a wall that was impeding my own personal Christian walk with Jesus. Just to not leave out anyone; I have been talking about you who have had various atrocities done to you. I want to give to those of you that may have committed some of those atrocities your self, the very same assurance of un-conditional forgiveness! You are absolutely NO different! Victim or perpetrator, IT MAKES NO DIFFERENCE TO GOD! Sin is sin! All sin was paid for 2000 years ago! And don't ever forget that! Forgive and forget is a saying we all hear. Is that a good saying? Maybe sometimes. Maybe never. But you know what? That is between you and God and no one else! When our forgiveness is filtered though the love of God, the walls come tumbling down, enriching our walk with God. BTW, is it Lie-dell or Lih-dell? Onward and upward.....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Thanks Maryann, I believe in genuine forgiveness -- even as I believe in genuine grace. Genuine forgiveness is a gift of God, a work that we cannot perform. But in my book forgiveness does not equal dysfunctional masochistic "here, do it to me all over again." That is not of God. That is of Satan. God is not the author of dysfunction! Real grace produces the fruits of the Spirit. Bogus grace only perpetuates evil. Real grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Cindy, Loved your assertion, ^^ Forgiving is not forgetting. We remember the pain and hurt and still choose to forgive. ^^ I have to remember that God says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay." When we humans seek vengeance we never do it perfectly. We always go too far. And when that happens, the other person has reason to come back after us. But God's vengeance proceeds from his justice. Real grace alone, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
To repeat what I posted on another thread: M favorite definition of frogiveness I heard from a social worker: Forgiveness does not mean forgiving and forgetting. It means remembering so you can protect yourself from future abuse, but it means letting God take the burden of revenge. Revenge is much too heavy a load for a human to carry. God wants to take that burden for us. Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, You said: "Maryann, Praise God you have been able to forgive the person who hurt you now! Even after 17 years! But I have a question: Would you enter into another business deal with this same person under the same set of circumstances as you did 17 years or more ago? If so, why so? And if not, why not?" I honestly have no idea what the Bible means by "turn the other cheek". I'm serious. I can tell you that I don't think the Bible teaches "ANYONE" that they need to be a door mat for anyone. The above post's, I thought, were clear that an abused person didn't have any responsibility to crawl and grovel! Not for so-called Christian reasons or displaced loyalty reasons or any other reasons!! Hear, hear, Maryann: "Should an abused wife un-conditionally forgive an abusing husband that molest's her kids? You bet your bootie. Should she stay around for more abuse or allow him to abuse her children? ABSOLUTELY NOT!! Grrrrrrrrrrr, to anyone that thinks that she should!" Again, Grrrrrrrrrrrr if anyone thinks you are supposed to stay in an abusive relationship! Or go back to a sick employer, etc! Not putting yourself back in that relationship DOES NOT mean that you can't forgive them! Good 'ol Colleen scored again: "Forgiveness does not mean forgiving and forgetting. It means remembering so you can protect yourself from future abuse, but it means letting God take the burden of revenge. Revenge is much too heavy a load for a human to carry. God wants to take that burden for us." As I already said: "Forgive and forget is a saying we all hear. Is that a good saying? Maybe sometimes. Maybe never. But you know what? That is between you and God and no one else!" And: "There is no sin that Christ didnít die for un-conditionally . That includes un-repentant sin. There is no sin that is to great for God to forgive un-conditionally. There is no sin done to any of us that God wont forgive un-conditionally. Therefore, there is NO sin that we, un-conditionally forgiven by God, should not also un-conditionally forgive!" Okay, now that I unwound a bit ;-)) Your question: "Would you enter into another business deal with this same person under the same set of circumstances as you did 17 years or more ago? If so, why so? And if not, why not?" FORGIVENESS DOES NOT OBLIGATE ME TO, IN ANY WAY, BE SUBJECT TO HIS EVIL! I wouldn't have any dealings with him under any circumstances! Why? As Bob George would say, "it makes no sense"! To the bottom line for me: "When our forgiveness is filtered though the love of God, the walls come tumbling down, enriching our walk with God." Now that there is a void where the hate was and the hate took up so much space that it will take a while for love to overflow, I have a plan. Coming up soon will be some great memories while in Joe's employ. I'm having a bit of trouble with that one right now. I'm having a hard time seeing past the fire and the horse. In other words, I'M REMEMBERING! That means, NOT FORGETTING! That means, GOD STILL UNDERSTANDS! Hmmmmmm, I got a line on a couple memories, but they have some honing. Did I miss anything? Oh yeh, what state were you when your sins were forgiven? I'll bet you were in an un-repentant state, just like me and the entire world of humanity. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Hmmmmmmm, I've been thinking again!;-(( I ran across something that may be a little more "forgiving" (pun intended;-) to what position I think you are coming from. Soooo, take that! In the meantime, please position yourself a bit more by commenting on my above post? It may be a day or two before I get back with you on this. I really need to clean my house. That is, physical house! Yuk. And I'll be formulating while doing so. Maryann | ||
| Max |
Hi Maryann, I think you're right on target. The key, to me at least, is that God MUST be involved in all forgiveness between two persons. For a victim -- say, an eight-year-old girl who is being repeatedly and regularly raped by her father and her brothers and her uncle while her mother does nothing to prevent the abuse -- to forgive them all: What does that mean? It means that God is not involved in the transaction. But God is ALWAYS involved, because God looks upon the hearts of all involved. Maybe God will act on the heart of the mother and she will move to protect her child. Or maybe God will act on the heart of a neighbor who will become suspicious and report to child protection services. I don't know. God knows. All I know is: Things are seldom what they seem. God's in charge. And OUR ideas of what genuine Christian forgiveness really is can sometimes be TERRIBLY DISEASED! Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Steve |
Hi Folks, Max wrote: "But God is ALWAYS involved, because God looks upon the hearts of all involved. Maybe God will act on the heart of the mother and she will move to protect her child. Or maybe God will act on the heart of a neighbor who will become suspicious and report to child protection services." Another thought: Perhaps nothing about the situation will be changed. Perhaps the girl will go on to be raped throughout her childhood with no intervention by anyone at all. And God's forgiveness can be at work through that. The girl may grow up to be an incredibly compassionate individual who can counsel others and deal with the grief brought about by those experiences. She may be able to forgive in ways that the rest of us can imagine is only possible with God. The story of Kim Phuc, the little girl that was in the Mi Lai village in Viet Nam is a great story of forgiveness. The U.S. military thought the village was empty of "innocents" when they went in to bomb. Kim, her family and others were still there. Many of us remember the photograph of little Kim running down the road with no clothes on. I still have a hard time looking at that picture. Today Kim has a ministry of forgiveness. She goes around the world with her testimony of the forgiveness of Christ. Total . . . Absolute . . . Unconditional. She has even met with one of the men responsible for the bombing. She has publicly forgiven him and it has changed his life. I believe Kim Phuc has a beautiful understanding of forgiveness for people of war. The rest of us can have a beautiful understanding of people of sexual abuse, emotional abuse, robbery, lying, or whatever things have been committed against us. But we need to forgive. I've seen so many discussions on whether forgiving means forgetting or not, or what the nature of forgiveness really is. But almost everyone of us knows when we have been truly forgiven by someone. We know what it feels like to stand in someone's presence, knowing that we've done wrong to that person, and know that that person is not "holding" that against us. I'm not saying that we need to be dupes. But we need to live in the reality of the forgiveness that Jesus has given us. And part of the experience of forgiveness lies in forgiving. Please forgive me if I don't make sense. Steve | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Steve, Keep up the faith. Remember: When our forgiveness is filtered though the love of God, the walls come tumbling down, enriching our walk with God. Forgiving is not forgetting. We remember the pain and hurt and still choose to forgive. You said: "I'm not saying that we need to be dupes. But we need to live in the reality of the forgiveness that Jesus has given us. And part of the experience of forgiveness lies in forgiving." Well said, Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Hi everyone! Another thought on forgiveness and revenge.. . It may be an overwhelming urge, but ultimately, it doesn't doesn't bring the Peace that we desire. As Lewis Smedes writes in FORGIVE AND FORGET?, "Revenge glues us to the past...revenge never evens the score, for alienated people never keep score of wrongs by the same mathematics. Enemies never agree on the score because each feels the wounds he receives differently from the wounds he give. How many Beiruts can ever equal a Holocaust? How many of her put-downs equal his slaps in the face? We cannot get even; this is the inner fatality of all revenge." For me, understanding the forgiveness of God TO Me because of Christ's death FOR ME is the only way I can attempt to truly forgive anyone. It is still not easy. I like what Barbara Brown Taylor writes about forgiveness in her book GOSPEL MEDICINE. She is a pastor/rector (yes a woman!)of an Episcopal Church. I have enjoyed her writings... "The problem is that anger is so exciting, so enlivening, that forgiveness can seem like a limb surrender. If you have ever cherished a resentment, you know how right it can make you feel to have someone in the world whom you believe is all wrong. You may not be up to admitting it yet, but one of the great benefits of haveing an enemy is that you get to look good by comparison. It also helps to have someone to blame for why your life is not turning out the way it was supposed to." "So why don't we do it more often? Because it is scary, to lay down your arms like that, to trade in your pride and your power on the off-chance that you may discover something more valuable that either of them...the chance to live again, free from the bitterness that draws the sweetness from our lives..." "We are being forgiven every day of our lives . We are geing set free by someone who has arraged things so that we have all the advantages. We have choices. We have will. And we have an Advocate, who seems to know that we need lots of practice at this forgiveness business...it is God's cure for the deformity our resentments cause us. It is how we discover our true shape, and every time we do it we get to be a little more alive." May we all rest in His Forgiveness always! Cindy | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Cindy, what a wonderful quote! Thank you for sharing it. That's a great observation: anger is exciting, and having an enemy makes us feel comparatively good. And forgiveness is God's cure for the deformity our resentments cause. Thanks again. Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
If you can decifer my mistakes on the quote above, that was supposed to be "a LIMP surrender" not limb! And "we are BEING set free by someone who has ARRANGED things..." I hate not being perfect!! ha!, ha! Resting in His Perfection always, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, But you ARE perfect, in Christ! :-))))) Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guyz, I need to clarify something when I said: "My above story, sad as it was, didnít demonstrate the kind of agony that some of you have and are still experiencing. My pain was great. My fear was greater. My hatred was greatest. BUT, the fact was, these were done to temporal objects, NOT children or adults that are made in Godís image. I canít pretend to understand your particular pain because I canít. If I went though those awful evil thoughts and emotions over posessions and an animal, Iíd really hate to hear what some of yíallís thoughts have been when human beings have been abused!" When I said these thing were done to "temporal objects", I was not intending to have eliminated myself from the fact that "I" as a human being was being wronged! I was drawing a contrast between me and what was done to my "temporal objects" as opposed to what may have been "directly" done to any of you "physically" in your "person" or to the "person" of a child, parent, relative, friend etc. These things were done to "me" through my temporal stuff and "not" any human forms. I think there is a BIG difference. My situation is probably easier to forgive. I really have some interesting thoughts on forgiveness, but will work on them when I'm in Ca. next week. Maryann | ||
| Max |
This from a wonderful Christian friend of mine named Bob: 1 cross +3 nails ------------ ÝÝ4 given | ||
| Denisegilmore |
OH now THAT says it all! Amen and Praise be to God that through our Lord Jesus Christ, we have forgiveness of ALL sins and eternal life! God Bless everyone, DtB, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Jtree |
"Until individuals are aware of the gravity of their sin, they will not be awed by the reality of grace." - Alistair Begg ------------------------------- Hey, have any of you heard Alistair Begg preach? Info about how to hear his sermons: http://www.gospelcom.net/tfl/ | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Joshua, Hi! :-)) Yes, I have heard two sermons of his; from a "Phildelphia Conference on Reformed Theology" a number of years ago. They were wonderful sermons on "The Centrality of the Cross" and "The Preaching of the Cross". I've gone over my notes from that conference many times: "The Cross confronts sin, humbles the proud..." "The Muslims have no need for a Cross-a sin bearer-their symbol being scales held in balance..." "Hindus believe in the historicity of the death of Christ, but have no belief in the Saving Significance of His Substitution." "(Gandhi said that Christ's death was a great EXAMPLE...but there was no miraculous VIRTUE in it...)" "The Cross is central; of first importance! We must continue to use these words... Substitution, Propitiation... Christ bearing the wrath of SIN." "Otherwise we come up with a "coach", not a Cross needed; a psychologist, not a SAVIOR!" "The Cross is the heart of our faith." "We need to know how to read the Bible... Old Testament: Jesus predicted Gospels: Jesus revealed Acts: Jesus preached Epistles: Jesus explained Revelation: Jesus expected" I remember he ended one sermon with the song: "AT THE CROSS, AT THE CROSS, where I first saw the LIGHT... and the BURDEN OF MY HEART ROLLED AWAY! It was THERE BY GRACE I RECEIVED MY SIGHT, And now I'm rejoicing on my way." I haven't heard any more of his lately, but I was very blessed by those two...thanks for the info. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Amen Cindy. Valerie |
