| Author | Message | ||
| Rayns |
"For the promise, that he should be heir of the world, was not to Abraham or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith." Romans 4:13 "But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness." Wherefore? Because they sought it not be faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone: As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." Romans 9:31-33 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about the establilsh their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone that bellieveth" Romans l0:3,4 "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness , which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Philippians 3:9 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1 "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." Galatinas 5:6 In the words of Martin Luther: "Wherefore, to reject the grace of God is an horrible sin, and commonly reigning throughout the world: whereof all meritmongers are guilty. For while they seek to be justified by the merit of congruence, or by their own works and sufferings, or by the law, they reject the grace of God and Christ." Luther on Galatians Page 183 "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof glory: BUT NOT BEFORE GOD, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. "Now to him that worketh is the rewared not reckoned of grace, of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the UNGODLY his faith is counted for righteousness." Romans 4:4,5 "Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall not flesh be justified in his sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WITHOUT THE LAW IS MANIFESTED, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; EVEN THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD WHICH IS BY FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST unto all and upon all them that believe; for there isno difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. To declare, I say, at this time HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, that he might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? it is excluded. By what law? of works? nay; but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude, that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law" Romans 3:20-28 | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Rayns, Amen! Jude | ||
| Rayna |
We are righteous before God in Jesus. God in His mercy accepts the sinner when we accept Jesus as our Saviour. He alone stands before God in our place. Jesus alone is my Righteousness before God!! | ||
| Plain Patti |
Awesome thought, isn't it Rayna? :) Patti | ||
| Rayna |
We will always be sinners in this life, even unto death because because we have a sinful nature. We are only accounted righteous before God because we believe that God gave His Son to be our Saviour and our Righteousness before His Throne. "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God." "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus" Romans 3: 23,24. "For what sayeth the scripture, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." Romans 4: 3 This is the gospel, nothing can be added to it or taken away. It was completed at Calvary when Jesus said "It is finished". He did for us what we could not do for ourselves. So by the keeping of any law or any good work we are not righteous before God now or ever in this lifetime. Yes, Patti, this is an awesome thought. I think of it daily and thank God for Jesus my Saviour. Daily He is my righteousness before God's throne and I have access to come into God's presence because of Jesus, even though I will always be a sinner in this life. I thank God for His goodness to me. | ||
| Jude the Obscure |
Thank you for that, Rayna. Don't let anybody talk you out of it. -Jude | ||
| Rayna |
There is no way I will be talked out of it. Anyone that trys to gain righteousness before God by the keeping of any law or any good work, does not need a Saviour, and he sets himself up in the place of God. | ||
| Rayna |
Just a thought. Actually we live in a sinful world, born of sinful parents, destined to die because we are sinners, and that is our destiny. " The wages of sin is death". We continually "fall short of the glory of God". "The law of God is perfect", demanding perfection, unblemished, without spot or wrinkle. We cannot come before a Holy Sinless God, because sin cannot dwell in His presence. But God, Himself, provided the way. Jesus was given to live a perfect life for us. He was the "second Adam". He overcame where the first Adam fell, and lived a sinless, perfect ,unblemished life in this sinful world. He overcame sin, death and the devil. When we accept Him as our Saviour, God accepts us as His children and we have righteousness imputed to us, that we may come before Him. We are given the Holy Spirit in this life to show us what God has done for us in Christ. We are asked to believe. We will always be sinners, falling short of the keeping of the law. It is impossible for us to do and the more we try, we will learn that it is impossible. We can do nothing to make ourselves acceptable to God but to accept His Son as our Saviour. The plan of salvation is complete in Jesus. It is finished. We will always be condemned by the law, because we cannot keep it perfectly, because we are sinners. Our only perfect, sinless, righteousness is in Jesus in heaven before God. This does not mean that we intentionally commit sin, but that all we do is sinful before God, as we have a sinful nature. Our works are only an imperfect offering of thankfulness for what God has given us in Jesus. A great price has been paid for our souls, and to contemplate the sacrifice of Jesus is very humbling, to say the least. How truly thankful I am for God's Son given to me that I may be accepted of Him. I hope to follow Him all the days of my life and dwell in the house of the Lord forever. In this sinful world we will have trouble, but in our hearts we have peace with God in Jesus. He will guide and direct us by His Spirit in this life. How wonderful to know that "He that dwelleth in the secret place of the Almighty shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty." What a comfort and what a blessing. And today we may be assured that we have eternal life and that salvation is secure in Jeus by faith. May goodness and mercy follow us all the days of our life, and may we dwell in the house of the Lord forever. | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Rayna. Thank you for your words of comfort and assurance. You know that reminds me. One thing I never heard in the SDA church was the Assurance. In the mainstream churches I have been in, every service has the Confession, the Prayer for Forgiveness and the Assurance. | ||
| Max |
Thanks Rayna, For that grace-driven testimony. I particularly liked this: ^^ This does not mean that we intentionally commit sin, but that all we do is sinful before God, as we have a sinful nature. Our works are only an imperfect offering of thankfulness for what God has given us in Jesus. ^^ Let's never think that anything but bogus grace gives us license to sin. Genuine grace alone, Max | ||
| Rayna |
Just a thought Max. I read where you believe that Jesus lives in you. To me the only way he lives in us is through faith, but that does not eliminate the fact that we have a sinful nature and permeates all that we do, so no matter how many works we do by the aid of the Holy Spirit, these works are still sinful before God. They do not justify us before Him now or ever. Our faith is counted for righteousness and our sins are not imputed to us for the sake of Jesus. The Holy Spirit helps us to realize that in Jesus our salvation is complete and that we are secure in Him and have eternal life by faith. The Holy Spirit is sent to convict us of our sinfulness continually, and that our only hope is in the righteousness of God imputed to us. Is that the way you see it. Seems like you do not understand it this way. | ||
| Max |
Hi Rayna, I believe the following way: ^^ So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I [Paul]warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the sinful nature, with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. ^^ Galatians 5:16-26 NIV. In step with the Spirit, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I cannot speak for Maxóand, Max, please correct me if I'm reading your wrongóbut I do not read Max as saying that our post-salvation acts count for anything. I read him as saying that after we're saved, the Holy Spirit literally lives in usó(that's an absolute surety according to Ephesians 1:13), and the Holy Spirit changes us and works through us to do the will of God. These Holy Spirit-inspired acts (if I read Max right) are our obedience to the will of God. We wouldn't/couldn't do these things just in our own sinful flesh. But as new creatures, we respond to the indwelling Holy Spirit. Our sinful flesh still tries to assert itself, so we "die to self" continually as the Holy Spirit nudges us to follow His will instead of our own. In fact, as born again believers, our new commitment is to obey the Holy Spirit and die to self with His help and strength and influence. This dying to self, however, is not part of our salvation. It's a result of it, and it's inevitable. It's what the Bible says we must do. Unless we were born again and unless we had the Holy Spirit in us, we would be totally incapable of even trying to die to self. Have I misread you, Max? Colleen | ||
| Rayna |
Max, How do you believe we receive the Holy Spirit into our lives daily and what does the Holy Spriit reveal to us?? Oh yes, and what do you consider is the meaning of "righteousness by faith? " In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
Max, I am just wanting you to know that I am just trying to decide what your belief really is about the gospel? I have a cousin that has been an SDA all her life and she told me once that she believes that Jesus lives in her heart and with the Holy Spirit in her life enables her to do good works and grow in sanctification. She actually stated that she believes these works done through her by the Holy Spirit are not sinful. I do not believe our works are ever sinless even with the aid of the Holy Spirit in our lives. So now I want to know what you believe concerning this confusion? | ||
| Rayna |
I would like to continue on with this discussion. My cousin states that all just need to continue to grow in sanctification. She believes that because Jesus lives in her heart and the Holy Spirit enables her to do these good works, then these works are sinless. When I questioned her about what does she think about Ellen White stating we have to be perfect during the "time of trouble without a mediator" even to the point that we will not have a sinless thought, her reply was "I think we will be living so close to God that we will not have these thoughts" All I can say is how insecure she must be of salvation. We will always be sinners in this life whether we admit it or not, even our so called good works are sinful even with the Holy Spirit in our lives, but God does not impute these sins to us. Our only hope is in the righteousness of Jesus in Heaven, not in us. . At least that is my belief and can believe no other. What do you think? I would appreciate your reply. In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
Just to state my belief concerning the gospel. I believe the "righteousness of faith" is the righteousness of God imputed to us when we accept Jesus as our Saviour. We can add nothing to this righteousness. We are then accepted of God. I have probably said this before but just wanted to state it again. This is the gospel message we are to preach to all the world. Upon hearing the gospel when we believe it and accept it we become the children of God and are sealed with the Holy Spirit in our lives. We continue to daily believe the gospel and continually receive the Holy Spirit which enables us to know more and more about what God has done for us in Jesus and gives us complete assurance of salvation. I do believe that we are to walk humbly with God daily and resist evil with the Holy Spirit in our lives but this does not remove the sin from our lives. But this is not the gospel, this is the fruit of believing the gospel. As the gospel is a completed work and the work in our lives will not be completed in this life time, as our sinful nature will not be removed until Jesus comes and changes our sinful bodies like unto His glorious body. Daily we must realize that we are sinners and our only righteousness before God is in Jesus. Our works do not justifiy us before God at any time. Would appreciate a reply. Like I said I am having difficulty uderstanding what you do believe. In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Max |
Hi Rayna, Just got back from my Wednesday night Bible study and prayer group. So haven't read your posts till just now. First, I endorse everything that Colleen has said about how I believe. Second, I have stated a number of times on this website that I believe all my good deeds, good works, prayers, etc., are nothing more than "filthy rags." Third, I have to say that anybody who believes s/he can stand sinless before God without a mediator is doing violence to the Scripture which says, "Lo, I [Jesus] am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Such a person MUST be a legalist and has no concept of what the kindom of heaven is all about. More next post. Agape, Max | ||
| Max |
Rayna, I believe that the gospel is the once-for-all-time, once-for-all-people work of Jesus Christ (life, death, resurrection, ascension) that is "not of ourselves" and that saves us. It is a real gospel in the sense that it really does save. Any gospel that does not save is a false gospel. Agape, Max | ||
| Max |
RAyna, Now I would like to ask you a question. Paul writes (2 Corinthians 13:4-7 NIV) the following: ^^ He [Jesus] was crucified in weakness, yet he lives by God's power. Likewise, we are weak in him, yet by God's power we will live with him to serve you. Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus in in you -- unless, of course, you fail the test? And I trust that you will discover that we [Paul and traveling companions] have not failed the test. Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong. Not that people will see that we have stood the test but that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed. ^^ Do you think that we should test ourselves, as Paul says, to see whether Christ Jesus is in us? And do you believe that it is "by God's power" that we Christians, as branches of the Grapevine, bear the fruits of the Spirit in our lives? Agape, Max |
