| Author | Message | ||
| Rayna |
Yes, Max I do believe in the gift of the Holy Spirit in our lives, and the fruits of the spirit. I also believe in resisting the lusts of the flesh with the word of God, faith and prayer. But we will battle with this sinful nature until we die. We are not to commit sin willfully after we accept Jesus but if we do, we have an advocate in Jesus if we repent and turn from our sinful way. No I do not believe we should look to ourselves for our assurance of salvation as the Bible states, that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. It also states that "Let him that standeth take heed lest he fall" The sinful nature permates all we do. That is why we need a righteousness of faith outside of ourselves in Jesus in heaven throughout live to be acceptable to God. The Holy Spirit is given to us when we believe this truth, it is not given to us by the preaching of the law. Jesus alone is our righteousness before God, and the only righeousness that is acceptable to Him.. If we have Him we have eternal life, the Bible plainly states this and we must believe God's word. I would not want to put my trust in myself or any work that I do for the assurance of salvation. To me we either worship God in heaven or end up worshiping ourselves by continuing to look at our lives and checking out our spiritual temperature. This is the false gospel. Remember that Satan wanted to be worshiped, and man ends up worshiping himself when he continualy looks infward for evidence of his salvation. | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, Thank you for that beautiful reply. Now I have three more questions for you. Do you also believe: That there is such a thing as bogus/cheap grace? That there are indeed people who say, "Let us sin the more that grace may abound the more?" And that Paul called these people slanderers of God? Jealous for God, Max | ||
| Rayna |
Just another thought: I do believe that Christians need to be fearful of commiting sin, as we know that there are threatenings of God, whereby he shows that He will severely punish sin. Not only that, but we reap what we sow in this life And we are admonished to be faithful in well doing so that in time we may reap eternal life. But eternal life has been won for us in Jesus. He overcame sin death and the devil for us, not for himself. His life is imputed to us and our faith is counted for righteousness when we believe this truth. We need to continually remember this truth and the price that was paid for our souls. | ||
| Rayna |
You know Max, I think that the people that believe falsely do not believe the truth of the gospel, the righteousness of faith imputed to us when we accept the gospel. Their behavior is evidence that they do not believe this truth. | ||
| Rayna |
But I still say, we do not look inward for evidence and assurance of our salvation. That is only in Jesus and because God's word says it is so. You know I have known people that have presented themselves as real Christians and the real person is not found out until many years later, then they are caught in the act of willfully sinning continually without repentance. This person fooled everyone because his outward appearnce revealed the fact that he truly believed the gospel. Only God knows the heart, and we cannot judge others unless it is open willful sin and is not repented of when they are found out. | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, You wrote, ^^ And we are admonished to be faithful in well doing so that in time we may reap eternal life. But eternal life has been won for us in Jesus. ^^ Don't you think we have already reaped eternal life? And that if we are not enjoying it right here and right now, then we will never enjoy it -- anywhere, ever? Max | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, In answer to my question you wrote, ^^ You know Max, I think that the people that believe falsely do not believe the truth of the gospel, the righteousness of faith imputed to us when we accept the gospel. Their behavior is evidence that they do not believe this truth. ^^ Now with all respect and in all fairness, do you think that this is a true and complete answer? Max | ||
| Rayna |
Remember Martin Luther how fearful he was of dying and being a sinner when he himself was a monk, attempting to live without sin. I am sure he lived as close to God as possible but knew he was a sinner because he stated that he had lustful thoughts and desires. No matter how much he prayed and fasted he did not feel righteous before God. He was in terror of death. Until he understood that our righteousness is in heaven in Jesus and when we accept Jesus as our Saviour, the righteousness of Jesus is imputed to us freely without any merit of ours, but only because God is love and shows mercy to the sinner in the gree gift of righteousness in His son. And all who accept Him become children of God. Remember that Jesus edured hell, and the wrath of God for each one us that believe in Him. Unless we beleive this truth we shall receive the wrath of God and eternal death. We should bow humbly before Jesus for His willingness to endure suffering and shame that we may receive eternal lfie. May God continue to help us be faithful. In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, You wrote, ^^ But I still say, we do not look inward for evidence and assurance of our salvation. ^^ I can see this as a two-edged sword. People could say this -- and I don't mean you or anyone on this website -- as an excuse not to look at their own behavior at all. They could be in total denial about the horrible wrongs they are committing. Consider the land of Luther -- Germany before WWII, Nazi Germany, anti-Catholic Germany, cradle of the Reformation: It was full of "cheap grace" Christians who we absolutely blind to the mistreatments and murderings of the Jews, not to mention homosexuals, the retarded and mentally ill. At that time Germany had more Reformation scholars than any other country in the world. They were so full of bogus/cheap/slanderous grace persons that they wrought the wonders of the death camps in the name of God! Not to mention the horrors of the war around the world! Rayna, bogus grace is dangerous. It is not to be trifled with! Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Rayna |
I still do not understand what you call bogus grace? What do you call the righteousness by faith? You have not answered that question yet. Thank you for your reply. I don't recall that wording in the Bible, cheap grace?? | ||
| Rayna |
I don't think there is such a thing as cheap grace. The mercy and grace of God toward the sinner cost the life of His son. It definitely was not cheap. | ||
| Rayna |
And Max I do not believe we have eternal life now, only by faith in what Jesus has done for us by His death and life as our substitute. We shall always have trouble in this life, but we have a peace of conscience with God. There are no barriers between us and God and we accept Jesus as our Saviour. "There is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus" This is based on the word of God. We accept God's word by faith. | ||
| Rayna |
I don't think you understood what I said about looking at our lives. I do believe that we should live according to the principles of the Bible in this life, but we do not look to that as evidence of our salvation. That is only in Jesus when we accept Him by faith as our Saviour. He is the Rock of Ages, and the church is built upon it. I again state that we will aways be sinners in this life. We do not willfully sin but we are weak in the flesh. We can and will fail. This is shifting sand and not the foundation that I want to built my faith on. | ||
| Rayna |
Max, I believe that Martin Luther stated that when the true gospel is preached, it will be received by those that have afflicted consciences. Those that have tried to be sinless and have found it impossible in this life. Others will take this message and not understand it. Martin Luther also states there will be those that misinterpret it as giving license to sin. But that is a misinterpretation. It is not true. We all know that is not true. | ||
| Rayna |
Thanks for the conversation. I finish with my belief that Jesus is in Heaven for me and all that accept Him by faith. He is our righteousness before God, spotless, unblemished, brighter than the sun. We still have our sinful natures and need continual forgiveness and the imputation of the righteousness of God. My hope is built on nothing less than Jesus blood and righteousness. May we continually walk in the pathway of righteousness daily with Jesus and humbly bow before God in thankfulness for the gift of His son and the assurance of eternal life. May God bless you all with peace of conscience because of our High Priest Jesus before Gods throne. | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Rayna, for your posts. They have been a blessing to me today! (As they always are!) We need to be reminded often that we are saved by a righteousness totally outside ourselves. Grace and peace, Patti PS Give Mom a call! | ||
| sherry |
Hi Rayna, Can you share with me where those thoughts from Martin Luther come from? Is there some book I can get a hold of? I feel a true kinship there - his feelings were mine exactly. I would really enjoy hearing more from his stuff. Thank you | ||
| Patti |
Sherry, Much of Luther's stuff is online. I strongly recommend his "Commentary on Galatians" which can be found at this URL: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/gal/web/gal-inx.html It is written in modern English and reads easily. There is more stuff at: http://www.markers.com/ink/classic.htm#anchor83427 and: http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/wittenberg-luther.html#sw-write That should get you started and keep you going for awhile at no cost to you. | ||
| Max |
PAUL CONDEMNS SLANDROUS GRACE Dear Rayna, Let us agree ñ for the sake of argument ñ to the following conditions: 1. That the ìRomansî (to whom the Biblical book of Romans is addressed) are ìformer Adventists.î 2. That the ìJewsî (of whom Paul Speaks in Romans) are ìcurrent Adventists.î 3. That the ìcircumcisionî (of Romans 3) is ìrequired Sabbath observance.î 4. That ìthe words of Godî and ìthe [Torah] lawî (of Romans 3) are ìthe Ten Commandments.î 5. That I will use gender-neutral language in this adaptation of Scripture. That said, I want to render Romans 3:1-20 NIV making use of those substitutions: ^^ What advantage, then, is there in being a Seventh-day Adventist, or what value is there in required Sabbath observance? Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the Ten Commandments. What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify Godís faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every person a liar. As it is written: ìSo that you [God] may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.î But if the unrighteousness of former Adventists brings out Godís righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? Someone might argue, ìIf my falsehood enhances Godís truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?î Why not say ñ as WE ARE BEING SLANDEROUSLY REPORTED AS SAYING and as some claim that we say ñ ìLET US DO EVIL THAT GOOD MAY RESULTî? Their CONDEMNATION is deserved. What shall we former Adventists conclude then? Are we former Adventists any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Seventh-day Adventists and former Seventh-day Adventists are ALL UNDER SIN. As it is written: ìThere is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one. Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit. The poison of vipers is on their lips. Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes.î Now we know that whatever the Ten Commandment law says, it says to those [SDAs] who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore NO ONE WILL BE DECLARED RIGHTEOUS IN HIS SIGHT BY OBSERVING THE TEN COMMANDMENTS; rather, through the Ten Commandment law we become conscious of sin. ^^ Now, since I have fairly represented Paul here ñ and elsewhere on this website ñ I donít think anybody can fairly accuse me of not understanding righteousness by faith alone. That said, that onerous passage ñ Romans 3:5-8 ñ still exists and will not go away. If we do not deal with it, it will hound us to the end of our days, SDAs will be able to pin the ìantinomianî label on us like the paper tail on the paper donkey. And they will succeed in doing so to the extent that many SDAs who might otherwise cross over will be deterred from doing so. In his groundbreaking book SABBATH IN CRISIS Dale Ratzlaff speaks of the ìpendulum effectî: ^^ It is very easy for those who once kept the Sabbath but now no longer do so, to work seven days a week and to crowd out time for God. I believe this problem stems from of the ìpendulum effect.î When the legal restrictions were taken away, it was easy to let the pendulum swing too far into personal freedom. It is for this reason that I have included this short chapter [ìAssembling and Restingî] which deals with Christian assembly and physical rest. [Not necessarily on the seventh day, but on any day, though Dale recommends Sunday for practical reasons.] ^^ Question: So how do I define cheap / bogus / slanderous grace? Answer: ìGraceî that is falsely claimed as an attribute of God, but is really only pseudograce humanly projected onto God. ìGraceî that denies the straight-and-narrow way for the broad way that leads to destruction. ìGraceî that denies the struggle of personal cross bearing and the ìdisciplineî in ìdiscipleship.î ìGraceî that ìreadsî Galatians but skips over chapter 5, verses 16-26, as though they werenít even there. . ìGraceî that takes out of context certain of Martin Lutherís strong statements and touts them as allowing for murdering and committing adultery thousands of times a day without judgment from God ñ a SLANDER of that precious Reformer if ever a slander there was! ìGraceî that turned a blind eye to the atrocities of the Nazi death camps and the infliction of Hitlerís World War II upon the world. . ìGraceî that refuses to live by the Spirit. ìGraceî that winks at: ^^ Sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. ^^ Paul, Galatians 5:19-21 NIV. To these devotees of bogus grace Paul says: ìI WARN YOU, as I did before, THAT THOSE WHO LIVE LIKE THIS WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.î Galatians 5:21 NIV. Bogus, slanderous grace is grace that denies-by-ignoring the very words Paul who ñ after preaching REAL grace ñ wrote: ìThe fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.î Galatians 5:22-23 NIV. It is a pseudograce whose eyes skip right over this precious passage: ìThose who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.î Would you mind responding to my specific concerns? Thanking you in advance, Max | ||
| Rayna |
I guess Max, that I do not understand what you are saying and I do not think you understand what I am saying. All I can say is go back and read my posts. I do not believe that everyone will understand this message, and persecution will arise and we shall be called all sorts of things, but we are to continue to teach the imputed righteousness of faith. Just have to let God handle these people that misinterpret us. I do not know how to make myself any clearer. Martin Luther overturned the then known Catholic Church with this message. Anway, must say goodnight as I must go to work tomorrow. Night to you all and thank you for answering my posts. In Christian love, Rayna |
