| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hi Rayna, You wrote, ^^ I do not believe we have eternal life now, only by faith in what Jesus has done for us by His death and life as our substitute. ^^ I believe you are mistaken. I believe we do have eternal life in verity right here and right now. I wish to share with you a precious text that can change your whole outlook ñ Paul, 1 Corinthians 2:9 NIV: ìNo eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.î Think that refers ONLY to life in heaven above after Jesus has come again? Read on (verse 10): But God HAS REVEALED it to us by his Spirit.î Even more revealing is Luke 17:20-21 NIV: ìOnce, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, ìThe kingdom of God DOES NOT COME with your careful observation, NOR will people say, ëHere it is,í or ëThere it is,í because the kingdom of God IS WITHIN YOU.î And there are plenty more texts to prove the same point. For example, Matthew alone uses the term ìkingdom of heavenî 57 times to show that IT HAD ALREADY COME by the time Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist. Nor are there two kingdoms of heaven. There is only one. Jesus did not distinguish between them. Sometimes it is called, ìthe now and future kingdom of heaven.î More next post. Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Dear Rayna, I'm doing as you have asked and going back over your recent posts. Here's one: You wrote, ^^ Max, I believe that Martin Luther stated that when the true gospel is preached, it will be received by those that have afflicted consciences. Those that have tried to be sinless and have found it impossible in this life. Others will take this message and not understand it. Martin Luther also states there will be those that misinterpret it as giving license to sin. But that is a misinterpretation. It is not true. We all know that is not true. ^^ I agree wholeheartedly with all but your last sentence. We DO NOT all know that is not true. Slanderous grace persons, of whom Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote from prison in Nazi Germany, did not know that it was true! Under ìreal graceî with Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Max | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
As off-the-wall as it may sound, I've come to believe that grace, eternal life, and the forgiven life don't make complete sense until we understand that when we are born again, we receive living souls. If we are born dead, as Ephesians 2 says, then when we are born from above something very real happens. We become spiritually alive. Yes, God looks at us and sees Christ's righteousness from that point on. Yes, we still have sinful flesh that still wants to sin. But the difference is more than just that we're now counted righteous. Something new happens IN US. Our souls/spirits come alive, and the Holy Spirit connects our souls with God permanently. We now have a Living Soul! We're not only counted righteous, but we are now alive! Our living soul, connected to God, will never be separated from him. Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is within us. That is completely trueónot just a metaphor. We are connected to God because Jesus destroyed the barrier of sin, and nothing can ever separate us again. Our spirits are literally touching eternity when we are born againóour eternal life actually begins at that moment! We still have a body to consider. It's still sinful flesh. But God has also promised to redeem our bodies. Jesus' resurrection verifies that we, too, will have resurrected, eternal bodies one day. Our eternally alive souls will then be connected to our resurrection bodies. Meanwhile, while we're still in our sinful bodies, our living souls are growing in grace in Jesus. When we become alive spiritually, we will change. This change has nothing to do with verifying or sealing our salvation. It's just a natural phenomenon like a child growing. Our changes will sometimes be visible and sometimes not. But we will begin to experience deep peace. That peace shows on our still-sinful faces! Unless we understand that our souls become eternally alive, the question of post-salvation works is definitely arguable. If nothing changes except God's perception of us, we could argue endlessly about the nature of our works post-salvation. But when we understand that we become alive, literally, and that we are quite truly new creations, our post-salvation deeds are a completely different phenomenon than our pre- salvation deeds. Indeed, when we become spiritually alive, we cannot help growing in grace and obedience. We cannot help taking God's word and will more and more seriously than before. We cannot help acting and doing differently than before. And these born-again behaviors are not linked in any way to our own works! We are now God's. We are one with him. Our lives are committed to him. And even though our sinful flesh asserts itself, our living souls know that we've acted "in the flesh". Our living souls give our deep hurts and heart wounds to God, and the Holy Spirit begins to heal them and thus enable us to change our automatic behaviors. We really do act differently, little by little, step by step. And God continues to reveal to us what needs to change. None of these phenomena of change could happen if we did not actually change spiritually. If we were only perceived as righteous and not literally reborn, of course our actions would only be our works! If we were not reborn, the Holy Spirit could only work by forcing our sinfulness to subside. But since we are literally rebornónew creations!óthe Holy Spirit heals and changes us from within. I praise God for Eternal Life! Colleen | ||
| Cindy |
Rayna, Thank-you for your posts lately. I realize, too, that "my hope is built on nothing less than Jesus' Blood and Righteousness!!" I think we should attempt to explain our faith to others and , of course, live gratefully and humbly in His wondrous grace always, seeking only His will for our lives. The Holy Spirit will guide us. I agree also with you when you wrote: "I do not believe that everyone will understand this message, and persecution will arise and we shall be called all sorts of things, but we are to continue to teach the imputed righteousness of faith. Just have to let God handle these people that misinterpret us." In Christ, Who is my Life, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, Does the teaching of "the imputed righteousness of faith" involve cheap "righteousness of faith"? This is a question that needs to be answered. Trusting in the costly "righteousness of faith" alone, Max | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hello again! I admire your dedication to this site. I see a passion for lost souls in you! You have been a blessing to me! Have you ever read any of Hannah Whitall Smith's books? She was a contemporary of EGW and back in 1992 on an anniversary trip with my husband, as we were browsing in an old used book store (really a large old barn), I came across her book, 'The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life'. My copy is from 1883. I have loved this book as well as another of hers entitled 'The God of All Comfort'. Her emphasis in trusting in God's promises has been very encouraging to me. She writes about the difference between bondage and liberty in 'The Christian's Secret of a Happy Life' (a very good chapter!): "A religion of Bondage always EXALTS self. It is what I do-MY efforts, MY wrestlings, MY faithfulness. But a religion of Liberty leaves self nothing to GLORY in; it is ALL CHRIST, and what HE DOES, and what HE IS, and how wonderfully HE SAVES!" In Christ, my all-sufficient Savior, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, Thanks for recommending that book. It sounds excellent. And in fact it is cheap grace, cheap righteousness and cheap faith -- not costly grace, costly righteousness and costly faith -- that glorifies the self. It is only the costly item that produces selflessness, humility, and constant awareness our sinful state. In Him alone, Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, When I lived in Va. I really enjoyed "doing" the old junk stores. Books have always been a passion of mine. There were some junk stores with so many old books in them that it could cause a melt down in an old book worm like me. (I did lose some of them in the fire!) I had a box of my "mostest prizest" books and a dog I dogsat got into the box and destroyed every page of every book. Grrr Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Max, you asked, "does the teaching of the 'imputed righteousness of faith' involve cheap 'righteousness of faith'?" No, the teaching of Christ crucifed and risen for me (imputed righteousness of faith) DOES NOT INVOLVE cheap righteousness of faith. Of course not! It was very costly for God. But, because it is such wonderfully GOOD NEWS!!, such a FREE gift!!, don't you think Satan will do all in his power to discredit the message or anyone who proclaims it? Of course there will be those who don't appreciate the cost involved and will flaunt and disregard the grace of God by their continual and willful turning away from the Holy Spirit's promptings to follow Christ (discipleship) with abandon! But this does not mean we should ever back down from preaching the message of the Cross! Again, HERE AT THE CROSS is where the POWER and WISDOM of GOD are manifested, revealed, proclaimed!! Here is RIGHTEOUSNESS, HOLINESS, and REDEMPTION! (See 1 Corinthians 1 and 2) Nothing else has given me the motivation to live a life worthy of Him. As I've said before, to live for an audience of One--Jesus--is my desire. Of course this will spill over into how we treat others who are also created by Him. I must say, though, that I think in our desire to persuade others there will still be times when they misinterpret us. I think, as I posted a day or so ago, that there is a Dangerous element to the true preaching of the Gospel of Free Grace!! We will be charged with the label anti-nomian whether we like it or not! I believe the evil forces will try all kinds of attacks on those who hear and respond to the declaration of Satan's loss at the Cross--won gloriously by Christ's absolutely perfect life in place of ours. You posted: "That said, that onerous passage ñ Romans 3:5-8 ñ still exists and will not go away. If we do not deal with it, it will hound us to the end of our days, SDAs will be able to pin the ìantinomianî label on us like the paper tail on the paper donkey. And they will succeed in doing so to the extent that many SDAs who might otherwise cross over will be deterred from doing so." Unfortunately, I KNOW we have been and will be 'slanderously reported' as being against any moral standard, any true belief in Jesus, etc. But those who are willing to be open to, and led by the Holy Spirit will have their eyes opened and the veil dropped to see JESUS ONLY! I pray for this. I see much of the present condition similar to Paul's day when he wrote in 2 Corinthians 6. He did not want their ministry discredited either! He encourages the saints... "in TRUTHFUL SPEECH and IN THE POWER OF GOD; with weapons of RIGHTEOUSNESS in the right hand and in the left; through GLORY and DISHONOR, BAD REPORT and GOOD REPORT; GENUINE, YET REGARDED AS IMPOSTERS; KNOWN, YET REGARDED AS UNKNOWN; dying, yet we live on: beaten, and yet not killed; SORROWFUL, yet ALWAYS REJOICING, POOR, yet making many RICH, HAVING NOTHING, yet POSSESSING EVERYTHING!!" Blessings... KNOWN by GOD, as are you, too, Max!! Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, HI! I was going to e-mail you privately but got on this and you know how hard it is to get off!! Do you have two e-mail addresses? I received that very funny one today (about men). My 12 year old SON thought it was so funny, and read some of the items to me again! I will try and e-mail you tomorrow. I love books, too. I would have been SICK if my prized books were eaten up! I like the end of one of Emily Dickenson's poems where she mixes books, pain, and praise: "Unto my Books--so good to turn Far end of tired days It half endears the Abstinence And Pain--is missed in Praise." Emily also wrote: "'Consider the lilies' is the only commandment I ever really obeyed." Interesting woman... As always, because of His great Mercy, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Colleen, I need to stop for the night, but just quickly wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your comments on being spiritually alive. I can sense this more and more. Thank-you. I want to keep studying in this area; it is interesting! As always, a debtor to Grace, (Costly!!, Max!) Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Cindy, I think you are right. I believe that those who have not bee truly convinced that we are saved by a righteousness totally outside of ourselves inevitably get the idea that we are preaching wild abandon when it comes to morality. As was Paul, as you pointed out. I know that when the Gospel first found me, I had many of the same questions. "Shall we sin more that grace may abound?" But that was based upon my perspective at that time. I thought that sin was something we did, and therefore could stop doing. I have since come to believe that sin is something that we ARE. And we can no more stop sinning than we can stop our hearts from beating. In the Gospel of our Lord, a righteousness from heaven is revealed. When we see the perfection of the righteousness of Christ, first we will be convicted, lowered to the earth in despair of our own paltry obedience. Then we will be elevated to highest heaven, because this righteousness is ours by faith. After we understand the Gospel, we can never regard our works as having any merit whatsoever. Because we have seen the perfection of Christ. I love what Brinsmead used to say (and I am paraphrasing): Kneeling at the foot of the cross, the repentent sinner has reached the place of highest honor on earth. I do not believe we ever "grow" beyond this point. We always live as sinners saved only by the grace (undeserved mercy--an intentional redundancy for the sake of emphasis) of God. We sin because we are sinners. Every thing that comes through this body of death will be tainted with sin. God forgives sinners (not just individual sins) completely. If we ever move on beyond being sinners or acknowledging our sinnerhood, we have no further need for the grace (undeserved mercy) of God. If we truly believe that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags," why would we go around "witnessing" to the wonderful things inside of us? Why would we want anyone to focus on our lives, knowing that the works of our hands are tainted with evil? And most of all, why would we go around preaching those works which are filthy rags in the eyes of God? We can do no better than Paul and the disciples in the Book of Acts. They preached Jesus Christ, crucified, risen, and exalted to the place of highest honor in the universe. "Faith comes of hearing, and hearing of the Word of God." Nowhere in the Bible does it say that personal righteousness comes of hearing about how God has changed lives. We must present the only perfect righteousness--the doing and dying of Jesus Christ--and then we must allow the Holy Spirit to do His work--to convict and convince. That is our call as believers. Thank you for your words, Cindy. You are a constant inspiration for me. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Patti, Good morning! Yes, indeed, as you said, "We must present the only perfect righteousness--the doing and dying of Jesus Christ--and then we must allow the Holy Spirit to do His work--to convict and convince. That is our call as believers." We can share our stories, but the only Story really worth sharing is the Story of JESUS!! His perfection in life, His sacrificial death, and His glorious resurrection; all given as a FREE GIFT to us and for us!! And, yes, the Holy Spirit will do His work of conviction. We can pray that minds will be open to His promptings. We can point others to the Scripture where there is a wealth of counsel, always reminding them of their standing in the PERFECT, FINISHED work of Christ on their behalf. We are to grow IN GRACE and IN THE KNOWLEDGE of OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. Growing IN grace is a freeing concept to me. Blessings to you, Patti! A Debtor to His grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
As a postscript to my above posting, I really do think our own personal stories of how God's wonderful grace has been with us through our various journeys can be very helpful to others. As 2 Corinthians 1:3 says, "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God." In His Mercy always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Cindy, You wrote, ^^ But, because it is such wonderfully GOOD NEWS!!, such a FREE gift!!, don't you think Satan will do all in his power to discredit the message or anyone who proclaims it? ^^ Indeed, that's why Satan invented cheap grace! Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Rayna |
Cindy and Patti, Thank you all for your posts. So thankful to know that others on this site believe as I do. Max, just don't understand your belief. But you are entitled to believe whatever you want. But as for me, I choose to believe in the righteousness of faith imputed to all those that accept Him by faith. The Christian life is one of faith, we do not walk this way by site. We do have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. That is heaven to me. In Christian love, Rayna | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I totally agree that we are saved ONLY by faith in Jesus and his completed work. Not long after we started attending Trinity church, Gary Inrig preached a sermon from the book of Ephesians in which he talked about the Christian's call to live a Godly life. I remember being NERVOUS! "Here we go again," I thought to myself. "I just can't get away from this law cling-on!" As I previously mentioned, the word "Obedience" made every one of my (numberless) red flags go up. I've had to back off and get some perspective, though. We Adventists had been taught a perversion of obedience and law. We were taught error, but we learned the error in the words of truth (a particularly sinister aspect of our deception). I have slowly come to see what Gary (and now Max, I believe) means. To discover true, costly grace after a lifetime of oppression and bondage yielded such unbelievable joy and freedom that I cannot begin to describe itóalthough I can tell most of you understand what I mean! I didn't want anyone even mentioning "expectations" or "results" or "requirements" for a Christian life. Beginning to recognize that I'm now ALIVE, however, has made the discipline of a Christian life look completely different than it looked to me as a "new convert"! The discipline of a Christian life is NOT making sure I'm growing and doing God's works. It's a continuation of Freedom! It is unbelievably wonderful to discover that in the middle of an emotional outburst or an uncontrollably frantic day, the Holy Spirit will tap me on my figurative shoulder and say, "Pray and ask for Ö", and He actually helps me know what to pray for and what results he wants me to experience. I'm not a victim of my enviornment anymore. I can actually choose to give my sinful impulses to himówhen I'm in the middle of sin! I don't always choose to give my impulses to him when I become conscious that I should. But when I do, everything gradually gains a new perspective. God doesn't always make everything clear when I start turning over my impusles and reactions, but if I'm (here's that dreaded word) OBEDIENT to the Holy Spirit's reminders, the offending situations do begin to look different and to resolve. This type of obedience is not our works. It's walking with the Spirit. I'm not describing feeling guilty because I know I'm breaking the law. I'm describing becoming aware of God's will for me to release to him whatever happens that distracts me or tries to get me off track with him. And when I sin, I'm forgiven! But now I'm free to ask for God's help not to sin. I'm free to let God help me grow. I'm free to let Him change me. I'm still inside my sinful flesh. I will always be tempted (and succumb) to sin. But to God I'm no longer "sinner"; I'm "saint". I'm living in grace, and in his grace, God doesn't just save usóhe makes us spritually alive and changes us from the inside! As long as we're physically alive in these bodies of sinful flesh, God will continue to reveal himself in us. He actually lives in us and loves us, and his love changes us. Colleen | ||
| Max |
Patti, Rayna and Cindy, Do you believe there is any place for human effort on the part of the redeemed sinner? Is there any place for striving? Something I really want to know? Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Max, Not much. His yoke is easy and His burden is light. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Cindy, I posted: "That said, that onerous passage ñ Romans 3:5-8 ñ still exists and will not go away. If we do not deal with it, it will hound us to the end of our days, SDAs will be able to pin the ìantinomianî label on us like the paper tail on the paper donkey. And they will succeed in doing so to the extent that many SDAs who might otherwise cross over will be deterred from doing so." Then you posted: ^^ Unfortunately, I KNOW we have been and will be 'slanderously reported' as being against any moral standard, any true belief in Jesus, etc. But those who are willing to be open to, and led by the Holy Spirit will have their eyes opened and the veil dropped to see JESUS ONLY! I pray for this. ^^ In all respect I don't think you have really come to grips with Romans 3:5-8 in this post. Paul is arguing AGAINST cheap grace, not FOR it! It is all to easy just to teach that there is no place for human effort after salvation and then to say to anyone who disagrees: "Well, they slandered Paul too!" (I'm not saying that's what you are doing, Cindy.) But Paul was one who said that after salvation we must "put to death the misdeeds of the body." This was said of Christians AFTER salvation, not before. Are people going to say, then, that Paul was a legalist? I mean, it seems as though Paul can't succeed in preaching the gospel! 1. If he says salvation is through grace alone, people call him antinomian. 2. If he says the justified Christian still must "put to death the misdeeds of the body," people call him a legalist! I say he was neither a legalist nor an antinomian. He was preaching the paradoxical truth as it is in the mystery revealed that is Christ Jesus. He was saying that the justified sinner is both sinful AND sinless -- at the same time. Agreed? Blessings to you, Max |
