| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
WHICH KIND OF GRACE ARE YOU UNDER? Dietrich Bonhoeffer writes OF: ^^ ... the grace which amounts to the justification of the repentant sinner who departs from sin and from whom sin departs. Cheap grace is not the kind of forgiveness of sin which frees us from the toils of sin. Cheap grace is the grace we bestow on ourselves. Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, Communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate. Costly grace is the treasure hidden in the field; for the sake of it a man will gladly go and sell all that he has. It is the pearl of great price to buy which the merchant will gladly sell all his goods. It is the kingly rule of Christ, for whose sake a man will pluck out the eye which causes him to stumble. It is the call of Jesus Christ at which the disciple leaves his net and follows Him. Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which we must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and it is grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of His Son: "Ye were bought with a price," and what cost God much cannot be cheap for us. Above all, it is grace because God did not reckon His Son too dear a price to pay for our life, but delivered Him up for us all. Costly grace is the incarnation of God. ^^ -- Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship, Collier Books, 1963, pages 47-48. -- Which kind of grace are YOU under? Max | ||
| Patti |
Grace is the mercy of God in forgiving undeserving sinners. Grace is not cheap. IT IS FREE. If we could pay for it, it would be something we have earned, and then it would no longer be "gratuitous." If it was good enough for Paul, for Stephen, for the disciples on the Day of Pentecost to "know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified," it is good enough for us. "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things will be added unto you." To quote a dear friend of mine: The Gospel plus nothing. Nothing but the Gospel. The Gospel is as good as it gets. | ||
| Max |
More on Dietrich Bonhoeffer: The Cost of Discipleship is perhaps his best known work prior to the war. This book was built upon his study of the Sermon on the Mount. Here Bonhoeffer attempted to deal with the uncompromising demands that Christ made upon his followers. The call to a self sacrificing law of love in all relationships was vital. In this book, B. coined the term: "cheap grace". Grace, he argued is costly because it is the call to follow Christ totally. "It is costly because it cost thelife of his SonÖ Costly grace is the incarnation of God." Cheap grace, on the contrary, is "grace without the cross, grace without Jesus Christ, living and incarnate." Jesus he argued, was one who invited people to "costly discipleship". The cost is "all" the gift is freedom. This book was written in the midst of the growth of Nazism. Nazism offered to mediate oneís relationship with God through the cornerstones of "racial purity and national pride". The cost of discipleship is the cross, and it is the mark of genuine community. Excerpted from: … M O D E R N T H E O L O G I A N S … Lecture notes on Dietrich Bonhoeffer http://www.northwoods.org/ce/brent/bonhoef.htm Under costly grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
STILL MORE ON DIETRICH BONHOEFFER from: … M O D E R N … T H E O L O G I A N S … Lecture notes on Dietrich Bonhoeffer http://www.northwoods.org/ce/brent/bonhoef.htm Bonhoeffer is by no means the most prolific theologian of this century. His theological career was the shortest of all the theologians we will study, and yet we cannot deny that his impact is perhaps the greatest of all modern theologians. His appeal is across denominational and theological lines. In the 1960ís there were Bonhoeffer study groups across the country, devoted to the study of his work and its implications for modern life. Bonhoefferís martyrdom, at the hands of the Naziís is probably the main reason for his popularity. Why? Because his theology was not merely academic, it was lived. The difficult and complex theological issues of life were lived out in the life of this amazing man who lived only 39 years. Bonhoeffer was born in 1906. His parents were upper middleclass Germans. His father was a psychologist/physician and Dietrich lived a comfortable and privileged life. Dietrich was one of eight children. His parents, Karl and Paula were strict with their children, yet allowed them to pursue their individual interests. The family was very cultured and consequently Dietrich was treated to a broad array of art and music. Dietrich was a compassionate child and there is a story about how he preached a little sermon to his father when he discovered that patientís were sent bills: "You shouldnít accept money from sick people." Bonhoefferís parents were not terribly devout. They were, in the best sense of the word, secular christians. His choice of ministry as a career brought a bit of disappointment to the family, but they were ultimately supportive. One of the fascinating realities to ponder is that B. more than any theologian, heretofore, had an impact and an appreciation of the secular. He did not differentiate between the two, and felt that it was a false dichotomy. He began his theological studies at Tubingen at the age of 17. This was an exciting time to study theology. Barth, Brunner, and Bultmann were beginning to make an impact upon the theological world. His family wealth enabled B. to travel through Europe and to the Americas. Bonhoeffer can best be described as bourgeois. He was fun loving, energetic and rigorous in his study. He had a broad appreciation for the arts and music, often using these to illustrate and provide metaphor for his thought. He was also robust and athletic. My professor, Charles West, told me of the time when Paul Lehman, the professor of Ethics at Union asked Bonhoeffer to play tennis. They played once and Lehman wanted to schedule another match. Bonhoeffer declined politely, indicating that Lehman was not quite good enough. Under costly grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Hi Patti, Thanks for your insights. Patti: Grace is the mercy of God in forgiving undeserving sinners. Grace is not cheap. IT IS FREE. If we could pay for it, it would be something we have earned, and then it would no longer be "gratuitous." Max: Yes, I agree very strongly. Patti: If it was good enough for Paul, for Stephen, for the disciples on the Day of Pentecost to "know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified," it is good enough for us. Max: Again, I agree very strongly. Patti: "Seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and all these things will be added unto you." Max: And again. Patti: To quote a dear friend of mine: The Gospel plus nothing. Nothing but the Gospel. The Gospel is as good as it gets. Max: And yet again. I would only add that the gospel is as costly as grace is and that there is a cheap, immitation gospel, just as there is cheap, immitation grace. Don't you agree? In real thing alone, Max | ||
| Max |
EXCERPT ON DIETRICH BONHOEFFER'S BOOK "ETHICS" from: … M O D E R N … T H E O L O G I A N S … Lecture notes on Dietrich Bonhoeffer http://www.northwoods.org/ce/brent/bonhoef.htm "ETHICS" is an incomplete book, yet it is seminal. It was pieced together posthumously by Bethge and other friends of B. I. Sadly, have lost my original copy of this book. It was the first book I bought in seminary for my theology course. I remember reading it with a marking pen, underlining those statements that were important and significant. I picked up the book a few years ago and noticed that most of it was underlined. In this book: Bonhoeffer put forward these themes: That there exist, anti-Christian forces in this world, (national socialism) and that humanity needs to recover a Christian worldview. The revelation of God in Christ is central. It is not the job of Christianity and the church to make Christ contemporary. Rather, we must conform the world to Christ. The Christian lives in tension: We must, on the one hand, avoid compromising with the world, yet on the other hand we are not to radically deny the world. (Note: once again, B. never loses his love for Godís creation or this world. His faith is a "worldly Christianity" that exists fully in the world, just as Christ lived fully in the world!) B. was a respector of "natural law" (in contrast to Barth) but abstractions were not the guide for the Christian, rather, we are totally responsible to Christ. B. developed his suspicion of "religion." Like Barth and others he believed that religion is a response of faith. B. also wrote that the Christian faith had responsibility in the areas of labor, marriage and government (Calvin). At the core of this book was a concern to bridge the chasm that developed between the church and secular society. Lutheranism held that the church and the world are separate spheres. B. maintained that in Christ, the world is already redeemed and is not apart from the church. B. also began to articulate, what can only be called a theodicy. The worldís problems exist within the "penultimate". There is an eschatological tension between this time (the penultimate) and the ultimate, or the fulfillment of time. The book includes a prophetic word to the church: The crisis in the world is a crisis in the church. We owe our special character to Christ, and the loss of faith, thus has a particularly virulent character to it. ********** It is my prayer that we former Adventists, as we move on into the world (as Christ did, in contrast to John the Baptist), will not succumb to the cheap grace of which Dr. Bonhoeffer so passionately writes. Remember, in Bonhoeffer's time "cheap grace" Christians are the ones who stayed out of jail and looked the other way. It was only the "costly grace" Christians who risked all to help the Jews and others under persecution by the Nazis. The Seventh-day Adventist Church, incidentally, SUPPORTED the Nazis. It was those SDA German citizens who resisted the Nazis who had the support of the General Conference. And after the war was over, those Nazi collaborrating Adventists were recognized by the General Conference as the only true SDA church in postwar Germany. The others were rejected as apostate. They still exist today, however, as the Reformed Seventh-day Adventist Church. There's one only a few miles from where I live. Costly grace to all who visit this website, Max | ||
| Patti |
"I would only add that the gospel is as costly as grace is and that there is a cheap, immitation gospel, just as there is cheap, immitation grace. Don't you agree?" Sorry, Max, but I am afraid I can't quite agree. Grace is God's mercy toward sinful humans. Grace cannot be cheap or imitation because it comes from God alone. Grace is pardon, undeserved forgiveness. It emanates solely from God. As far as "imitation Gospel" is concerned, the best place to find a biblical discussion of that is in Galatians: 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. And what is that "different gospel"? Galatians 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard? 3 Are you so foolish? AFTER BEGINNING WITH THE SPIRIT, ARE YOU NOW TRYING TO ATTAIN YOUR GOAL BY HUMAN EFFORT? 4 Have you suffered so much for nothing--if it really was for nothing? 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE WHAT YOU HEARD 6 Consider Abraham: "He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." The Gospel is salvation by faith ALONE: Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is BY FAITH FROM FIRST TO LAST, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." When we try to add our works, our changed lives, our regeneration, we are committing the error of the Galatians. The Gospel is the good news of an alien righteousness, a perfect righteousness from God which is ours by faith. That alone is the Gospel. If we try to add our works to the picture, we are adding our filthy rags as part of the foundation of our hope. It is like an analogy I heard on an SDA forum. Although the obvious SDA bias is seen here, I think it is an excellent object lesson. Some children asked their father if they could watch a certain movie, as it only had just a few bad words and a little violence. The father said nothing but went to the kitchen and began mixing up some brownie mix. The kids got excited. As soon as he had stirred in all the ingredients he went outside, brought in a bit of doggie dung and threw it in the mix. The kids were obviously grossed out and said there was no way that they would eat any brownies now. The father sagaciously responded, "Why not? There is only a tiny bit of dog poop in there." That, I believe, is a much better example of the Gospel than of watching movies. Whenever we add our own works or character to the Salvation that we have in Jesus Christ, we are adding dung to the brownies. We are corrupting a perfectly wrought, once-for-all, unrepeatable and totally sufficient act of salvation. The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified ONLY. How we respond to the Gospel is the work of the Holy Spirit in us as a result of believing in the Gospel. And it is up to Him (and Him only) to convict and convince. We cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit for Him. Our job is to present the Truth of our salvation in Jesus Christ. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, You are gravely and dangerously misinterpreting Paul in Galatians. You have quoted Galatians 3:3 (NIV) -- "Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" And then you have applied this precious text to bogus/cheap grace. This kind of exegesis would receive a grade of "F" in any textual criticism course of study in any seminary worthy of the name, liberal or conservative. Paul was telling the Galatian legalists that "salvation and sanctification are the work of the Holy Spirit" (NIV text note), not human effort -- "human nature in its unregenerate weakness. Trying to achieve righteousness by works, including circumcison, was a part of life in the 'flesh'" (NIV text note). If you deny that God's grace does not change lives, then you are espousing bogus/cheap grace. Paul makes this unmistakably clear later in this same epistle (Galatians 5:16-26) where he distinguishes cheap from costly grace: "Those who belong to Christ Jesus have CRUCIFIED [past tense] the sinful nature with its passions and desires." Patti, with all due respect, on this website you have never even acknowledged the existence of this vital, real-grace-defining text, despite the fact that I have quoted it and addressed it specifically to you three times! This is serious business. Suppose you have two suiters and cannot decide on which one to marry. One offers you an engagement ring that came from a Crackerjack box. The other offers you a diamond ring worth $100,000. They are BOTH free! Therefore, your earlier argument -- that the fact that grace is free means it cannot be "cheap" -- is disingenuous and carries no force of logic. Jesus said that both wheat and weeds grow together (within the borders of the kingdom of heaven) till the harvest. At that time the separation will occur. The wheat -- those who accepted the $100,000 item -- will be bundled together and gathered into the Lord's barn. But the weeds -- those who opted for the Crackerjack trinket -- will be bundled together and burned. Real grace changes lives for the better. But you have never admitted this. Can you do so now? Under real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Max: Patti, with all due respect, on this website you have never even acknowledged the existence of this vital, real-grace-defining text, despite the fact that I have quoted it and addressed it specifically to you three times! Patti: That is because it is not Gospel. Our witness is not to be to what happens in us--that is filthy rags. Our witness is, like the disciples and Paul, to the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ. Our witness is to a righteousness that is totally alien to us. Why should I witness to my own filthy rags, like the Pharisee did in the parable, which will never do anything positive for anyone, when there are so many around us who do not understand that Jesus Christ is their full and complete salvation? If it was good enough for Paul to preach nothing but Jesus Christ and Him crucified, it is good enough for us. John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." Our commission is to uplift Jesus Christ and Him crucified, not ourselves. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Dear sweet Max, you appear to be scared of the preaching of grace on this web site getting twisted into something it is not. That is admirable of you. But please, "Let God be God!" In the preaching of the CROSS the Holy Spirit will be "let loose" and He will be there to change lives!! But this change of life is the RESULT of hearing and receiving the Good News of that costly grace! And it may not be readily apparent to the believer or to others. Let's proclaim the Absolute Grace of Jesus from the rooftops! Lavish this message of the Cross on others! I agree with Patti wholeheartedly that: "The Gospel is Jesus Christ and Him crucified ONLY. How we respond to the Gospel is the work of the Holy Spirit in us as a result of believing in the Gospel. And it is up to Him (and Him only) to convict and convince. We cannot do the work of the Holy Spirit for Him. Our job is to present . the Truth of our salvation in Jesus Christ." We are not denying the work of the Holy Spirit (and changed lives...) at all!! I know I'm not. I'm just saying that proclaiming the life and death of Christ for us as a Finished work is the gospel of Grace. The Gospel of Grace is NOT the proclaimation of changed lives. These are only the results of the Grace proclaimed! I do not see that Patti was "gravely and dangerously misinterpreting Paul" and that "this kind of exegesis would receive a grade of F..." Please! This seems overly harsh to me. I am weary!! of the terms bogus grace or cheap grace...to me, these are OXYMORONS, two contradictory or incompatible things! Again, Grace is Costly on God's part! Praise Him!!! RELAX in this wondrous grace of Jesus. REST in Him. He alone will give us all PEACE... I am very tired tonight and so will only be posting this one thing tonight. I will try to check in again tomorrow after church! (my last talk as S.S.Superintendent. Please pray that I will proclaim the all-sufficient JESUS with boldness...) I have come to love the people on this post. You too, Max... you are brilliant! I have loved your parables and poems. Let's all embrace this Radical Grace by glorying in the Cross of Christ alone always!!! Forever a Debtor to His Grace and Mercy, Cindy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Did hE also teach you to be bold in the truth;-)? I think that I will be in your neck of the woods in August and just decided that I must meet you! Maryann | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I agree that the gospel is purely Jesus' finished work on the cross. The gospel we are to proclaim is Christ and him crucified. Changed lives is not the gospel. But too many people proclaim "the gospel" while rationalizing unspeakable behavior that they hide from others. Actually, some "evangelical Adventists" fall into this camp. I think it's important to state that the gospel is clearly and purely Christ and him crucified. But once a person accepts the gospel, s/he needs to live with integrity. It's a slander to the gospel to proclaim Christ while covertly abusing his or her children at home or cheating on taxes or embezzling funds. Max's concern, I think, is this type of hypocrisy. It does exist! Cindy, how was your talk today? Colleen | ||
| Patti |
Our duty is not to do the work of the Holy Spirit for Him. Our duty is to present Jesus Christ and Him crucified and let the Holy Spirit convict and convince. I have heard it said that the sin against the Holy Spirit is trying to be someone's conscience for them. I am not saying that I buy into that, but it is an interesting perspective. Our job--to present Jesus Christ and Him crucified ALONE. Remember the parable of the sower? We are to sow the seed; we are to preach the Gospel incessantly. We are not responsible, nor can or should we judge, the quality of the soil on which it falls. We take a chance when we witness that we will be taken wrong; and we often are if the persons listening have not been quickened by the Holy Spirit. The fear that people will misinterpret represents a lack of faith that the Holy Spirit can lead people into all truth. Our words are meaningless; it is only the Holy Spirit who can open the eyes of those who do not yet see. One of my favorite quips is that if God could use the jawbone of an ass to save Israel, perhaps He can find a use for mine, also. We tell, because we have to; we cannot keep quiet. Others hear, and they understand as the Holy Spirit enables them. Our words are inadequate and faulty; only the working of the Holy Spirit can open the eyes to the truth of our perfect and complete salvation in Jesus Christ. We must TRUST God to do what He has promised. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Quite a discussion. I feel unfortunate to have "walked" in at such a time. However, one point is clear to me. It is all Grace. Christ and Him crucified. Period. This discussion about Cheap vs. Costly is good. But it can undermine the fact that it is both. It was costly to God. It cost our Father His dear Son. It cost our Savior's very life. But it is only effective for those of us who sin. It is not effective for those who don't (or don't admit that they) sin. When we talk about those who "rationalize unspeakable behavior", we must be very careful. Quoting Colleen above: "But too many people proclaim "the gospel" while rationalizing unspeakable behavior that they hide from others. Actually, some "evangelical Adventists" fall into this camp." When we look at some sinful behavior as "unspeakable" while looking at other behavior (our own, for instance) as less grossly abusing the grace of God, we make that very grace of no effect for us. Our very selves, even if we are not committing specific acts of sin, are extremely sinFUL. We cannot escape that fact. Yes, there are some who call themselves Christian who abuse the freedom we have been given in Christ. But to deny that all of us abuse that freedom TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER is to say that only the "terrible" sinners abuse God's grace. We all do. I abuse it every day. That's why I need His grace every day. If some of us are not abusing the freedom given by God in His grace, then perhaps we don't need His grace anymore. I'M NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD GO OUT AND START BEHAVING WITHOUT ANY CONCERN FOR WHAT GOD WANTS FOR US. My point is that there is no difference between those who have accepted God's grace and, by the leading of the Holy Spirit, live holy lives, and those who have accepted God's grace, and then live lives that we would think is unworthy of the name Christian. Some of this discussion reminds me of one of C. S. Lewis' statements about looking down on those who are greater sinners than ourselves. Some commit lies, adultery, murder, rape, child abuse. Some commit what appear to be much less serious offenses. But they are offenses nonetheless, in need of God's forgiveness and grace. (And I'm not saying that some here look down upon others. The couple of you that I know, are very loving non-judgmental Christians and I thank God for you.) All sin is purposeful. All sin is a statement of our condition. Our sinful nature continues to try to escape God's grasp. The new creatures that we are in Christ fights that purposeful sin. Even if we unintentionally hurt someone, that is a statement of our condition, and our nature as sinners in need of God's grace. I hope there are none of us here who don't need His grace anymore. It was incredibly costly for God. But for us, it's as cheap as it can get, because it's free. It's the most Costly Cheap Grace I know of. Steve | ||
| Patti |
Thank you, Steve. I am going to rest and now and let your words sink in. They are like a refreshing gentle rain on my weary mind. God bless. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Steveóthank you for the clarification. I totally agree with you. We all continue to sin after we're saved, and we all continue to need grace. I didn't mean to imply that the changes the Holy Spirit works in us become our good deeds or that they're necessary in order for us to be saved. I certainly didn't mean to imply that certain sins are more heinous than others. I do believe, however, that there is a difference between hypocrisy (deception) and learning to live with the Spirit while continuing to struggle with sinful flesh. We came out of a tradition that confused us with talk of grace and rationalized both good and bad works! I don't believe we can necessarily decide who's a hypocrite and who's not. But in our own hearts, we know about ourselves. The Holy Spirit confronts us, and we know. I'm just feeling frustrated because I really don't believe there's any true disagreement between all of us always needing grace for our continuing existence within sinful flesh and the fact that after we accept Jesus, the Holy Spirit actually does begin to change us and make us think and act differently (when we allow him to do that in us!) We live in a paradox. We are completely saved; we have sinful flesh and continue to sin; we are truly saints; we are still sinners; nothing we EVER do is righteous; only Christ in us is righteous; we can never be free of sinful impulses on this earth; we can learn to live by the power of the Holy Spirit; we ALWAYS need grace. It's a paradoxóand God does save us while we are sinners! Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
I just have to add this: Grace really is "cheap"ófor us. We are saved totally in our most egregious sins. Jesus paid the costly price for our free grace. This free grace really IS the gospel. GraceóChrist and him crucified for usóis the ONLY thing we are to proclaim. We are to preach the gospel. There is a difference between grace and salvation and living the Christian life. We are to proclaim graceóthe gospelónot the Christian life. The Bible says that after we are saved and sealed with the Holy Spirit, no longer will any man teach his neighbor. The Spirit in us takes over our instruction. That's where the Christian life and the works of God in us come in. We are to proclaim Jesus and his salvationóperiod. We are accountable to God for how we respond to the Holy Spirit after that. What happens after we are saved is a new chapter in the book. It's not the message of the gospel Jesus asked us to tell. What happens as we begin to live as Christians is between us and God. Once we join a fellowship of believers, we do have some accountability to each other. I Cor. is all about this part of Christian living. But the Christian life is not the gospel. Grace is not just cheap; it's freeóto us. It cost God everythingóit cost Jesus his life. Colleen | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ Our duty is not to do the work of the Holy Spirit for Him. Our duty is to present Jesus Christ and Him crucified and let the Holy Spirit convict and convince. ^^ How is this in any way a criticism of what Colleen had just posted? She never asserted that our duty was "do the work of the Holy Spirit for Him"! As I understood her post -- and she can wash me out if she thinks I wrong -- to mean that it is our duty to do the work the Holy Spirit leads us to do! There is all the difference in the world there! Blessings, Max | ||
| Max |
Patti, You quoted a dear friend of yours saying, The Gospel plus nothing. Nothing but the Gospel. The Gospel is as good as it gets. And, yes, this is a beautiful and true poem. But the gospel involves the death of God! Likewise it it involves the death of self! And on a daily basis. That's why it is costly. It cost God HIS life. It costs us OUR lives! We do not REST our way into heaven. We DIE our way in! For the kingdom of heaven is within us! Luke 17:20,21. We have Jesus' own words on that! Blessings, Max | ||
| Patti |
--We do not REST our way into heaven. We DIE our way in! For the kingdom of heaven is within us!-- Ok, Max, believe as you will. I have given you plenty of Scripture. You refuse to accept the words at face value. Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience. What has happened between you and me on this forum, however, is a microcosm of the Reformation. It is not only the issue of the Reformation, but an ongoing debate, controversy even, over salvation. It is not just a matter of RCism vs. Reformationalism, or of someone bashing a human organization. It is the Gospel as presented by Paul, of salvation by belief in an alien righteousness ALONE or the "other gospel" of Galatians of adding human effort to God's magnificently wrought-out salvation. The evidence is there. You can discredit me, my words, the people that I quote, the sources I use, etc, all you want to, but that will never change the facts, which are accessible for anyone who chooses to find them. I left the SDA church, not because of Ellen's plagiarism, not because of the cover-ups, not because of blatant legalism, but because they were hostile to the Gospel. I left because there was little or no emphasis on "Jesus Christ and Him crucified," but a lot of focus on "good works." Their gospel, which is the same as the Catholic gospel, is a gospel of salvation by faith and works. When I first began to understand that there was absolutely NOTHING I could do to save myself and I started talking to my SDA peers and friends about the good news that the doing and dying of Christ was all-sufficent for our salvation, I was amazed, shocked, at the instant hostility. They would acknowledge that, yes, Christ died for our sins, BUT.. and then they would quickly go on to say that we had our part to play, that we must respond to the Gospel or we exemplified "cheap faith." It was this "Yes, but..." type of mentality that I found consistently among the SDAs that made me uncomfortable, because, it, in effect, nullifies the Gospel of salvation by grace--TOTALLY UNDESERVED FAVOR--alone. I was more than shocked here on this forum to be met with the same hostility over salvation by grace through faith ALONE as I faced on SDA forums. Max, your words to me have been said to me over and over again by the great defenders of the SDA faith. And I am sure everyone is sick of what they perceive to be our quarreling. As I am weary of struggling with you. Go ahead and try to discredit my every word, but that does not change the veracity of them. I am tired. I need to go someplace where I can hear of God's grace--not "bogus grace"--your words. (BTW, the RCs and SDAs with which I have dialogued, INEVITABLY us the expression "cheap faith" or "cheap grace" when answering those who believe in salvation by grace through faith alone.) God's grace cannot be bogus because it is His favor which He bestows upon undeserving humans. IT IS NOTHING INSIDE OF US. It is His pronouncement of "Not guilty" for all of us for the sake of Jesus Christ. It cannot be "cheap" or "bogus." It is a gift for all who believe in the Son of God. God's salvation exists; OUR BELIEVING DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. Our believing enables us to rest, to live in the assurance and confidence that Jesus Christ redeemed the world to God. It is a finished work, a fait accompli, and it is the foundation of all of the rest of our beliefs. Salvation is a foundational belief. We cannot build a belief system of works based upon the Gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone. Nor can we build a house of faith, of confidence, of assurance upon a foundation of human effort or response. If we build on anything other than the Rock, if we trust in our own regeneration, our own reactions to God's grace, our own change of heart, we are not building on the Rock, but on the sand. Grace and peace, Patti |
