| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Guys, If you heard a squeal of delight, it was me! I just figured out how to install a Bible CD and copy all the verses I want without chicken pecking on the keys! ;-)))))) I need you guys to help me out with just what exactly is the SOUL? Here is what I found and hereís what motivated me. I do NOT believe that the soul and the body are the same. Today I was presented with proof that the SOUL does NOT got anywhere but the grave and that there is really no difference with the soul, spirit and body with these verses: Acts 2:29-35 29. "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32. God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33. Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34. For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "`The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35. until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet." ' Okay, in the little bit of looking in Strongís and seeing what the difference between flesh, body, soul and spirit, it seems to me that flesh and body are similar and soul and spirit are different. Seems though, that Iíve read else where that body, soul and spirit are all different. Hereís what I came up with: Matthew 10:28 28. ìDo not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.î This verse says to me that there IS a difference between the body and soul. Hebrews 4:12 12. ìFor the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.î Godís word is NOT dividing the physical body. It is dividing the soul and spirit. There is a difference! Matthew 26:12 12. ìWhen she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.î When the woman poured the perfume on Jesus, it was His body, not soul. Matthew 11:29 29. ìTake my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.î The yoke here is NOT a physical wooden yoke. It is a spiritual yoke. Therefore the soul mentioned here is NOT the physical body! Matthew 27:59 59. ìJoseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,î Again, this is a physical body. 1 Peter 3:18 18. ìFor Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,î Jesusí body was put to death. And made alive by the Spirit. I see a difference here too. Mark 5:29 29. ìImmediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.î Obviously, this was a bleeding body not soul. 1 John 4:1-3 1. ì Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3. but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.î It does NOT tell us to test every body! You DONîT recognize the body of God! We are to acknowledge that Jesus came in the flesh. (or bodily?) And it is NOT talking about the body of the antichrist! Romans 4:19 19. ìWithout weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead--since he was about a hundred years old--and that Sarah's womb was also dead.î This again was the physical body. It is NOT the soul that propagates! 3 John 2 2. ìDear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well.î I really like this one. John makes a clear distinction between good health (body) and the soul getting along well! It says to me that they are growing healthy spiritually in the soul and it is Johnís prayer that they also be healthy physically. Iím told that God breathed into Adamís nostrils and he became a living soul, proving that the soul and the body are the same! Guys, I am getting really weary of this. Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
And another thing. Body, soul and spirit are all totally different Greek words. That has to mean something? Maryann | ||
| Lydell |
Your doing good here, even if you are getting tired Maryann! Did you also get I Thess. 5:23? "May God himself, the God of peace, sanctify you through and through. May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." Back in March I'd really been bugged by this topic. I'd gotten with the Lord and told Him that for "some reason" it really seemed important for me to have a clear understanding of this matter of what DOES happen to believers when they die. Do we just rest in the ground or are we instantly with Him. I had to know NOW and I didn't understand why. Obviously it was the stirring of the Spirit. You see, on April 6 my dad, a Christian, died quite unexpectedly while they were here at our home. Kind of hard to overlook the timing of my urge to understand the topic of death, isn't it! It has really been such a blessing to me to look back on that and realize God's timing for me in learning this lesson. And it has been a comfort to KNOW that my dad stepped instantly from his life here and is very literally in the presence of God. How about this one Maryann? II Peter 1:13 "I think it is right to refresh your memory as long as I live in the tent of this body, because I know that I will soon put it aside, as our Lord Jesus Christ has made clear to me." It sounds to me like he was saying that he was just going to drop something off the outside of him and keep on moving. And then there is I John 5:20 "We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." If He is eternal life (isn't that interesting? It isn't just that He has eternal life to give to us, but rather he IS eternal life!) and we are in Him, then that obviously has to mean that there is some part of us that is already possessing eternal life, and not just having the promise of eternal life. Actually it was I John 5:11-13 that the Lord used to start me reexamining this subject. I had frequently quoted this scripture to those folks who were just starting to question Adventism to help them see that we can have assurance of salvation when we believe. Suddenly those words "He who has the Son HAS LIFE," lealped out at me. | ||
| Billtwisse |
It is important that we do not use 1 Thess. 5:23 to propose a trichotomous instead of dichotomous view of man. The rest of scripture is dichotomous: man is body and soul (spirit). Paul is using 'soul' and 'spirit' to refer to different aspects of the same reality: the immaterial part of man. The Bible does teach that the spirit of man is absolutely without end: whether it is in bliss or shame. God could have created us destructible like the animals but elected to create us in his image--with all of the associated risks. --Twisse | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bill, Few days no hear. You said: "The Bible does teach that the spirit of man is absolutely without end:" Could you do a short version study on that? I'm sorta drowning in this issue. The water is a little deep. Just get me started a bit. Please....make sure you put your own concepts and view in it. Makes it "twice as more easier" for me to understand. Thanks........Maryann | ||
| sherry |
so if there is some seperation at death, where would our "soul" go. In my Young's Analytical Concordance, it does give different meanings to these terms...soul = nephesh or animal soul in over 450 texts from old and new...and two texts with a different meaning of soul which meant breath in Is. 57:16, and willing, noble one from Job 30:15, spirit = wind (ruach) in the Old Testament, whether refering to the Spirit of God, or the spirit of man. There are two texts that spirit is the same as soul = breath in OT from Job. 26:4, and Prov. 20:27. In the New Testament all uses of spirit = pneuma, with the exception again of two texts which spirit = phantasm, apparition...in Matt. 14:26, and Mark 6:49. According to Webster dictionary: pneuma is greek for both soul and spirit..., other similarities are with pneumo or pneum, pneumat...all greek forms meaning air, breath, gas, vapor, respiration....this is where we get pneumonia from. Hope this is helpful. | ||
| Colleentinker |
The Holy Spirit communicates with us in some very real way. We know from I Corinthians 2 that spiritual knowledge is not intellectual. "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned." When God breathed into Adam, he became a living soul. That soul is somehow different from what animals have. The Bible does not suggest that God breathed into animals to bring them to life. What God breathed into Adam made him alive, physically and spiritually. When Adam and Eve sinned, they did dieóspiritually. Their living souls died. They were irreconcilably separated from God. When Jesus shed his blood, rose from the dead, and sent his Holy Spirit to the earth, those who received Him became spiritually alive. At last the living soul that Adam had was possible again in humans! Our souls/spirits are something separate from our literal breath. Yes, pneuma means wind/breath. Even at Pentecost the sound of rushing wind filled the room. But the Holy Spirit is not "wind". Wind and Breath are merely ways to try to give a descriptive word to something which is eternal instead of mortal, something physically intangible but spiritually real. The Holy Spirits communicates with us in our spirits, and that doesn't happen in my nose or lungs. That happens somewhere I can't touch, but I can experience it! And, I've come to believe, that part of me that knows God and communicates with his Spirit is the part of me that will never leave Him, even at the moment of my phsycial death. Colleen | ||
| Max |
Sherry and Maryann, I agree with Colleen 100% We humans tend to reify ("thing-ify") or overly literalize spiritual truths. When Jesus says, "I am the door," he doesn't mean a literal door. That would have absolutely zero spiritual meaning. The Biblical use of the term "wind" or "breath" for soul is likewise spiritual. The Bible was not written so that we could understand physical things. We have nature, and the scientific method to study nature, to tell us about physical things. As Colleen has pointed out, "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned." This applies to what happens to us after death. If we stick to the revealed word of God, we are given "spiritual things" that we can "discern spiritually." We are not given scientific research dissertations on the nature of the body versus the nature of the soul. Paul wrote (1 Corinthians 5:6-9 NIV): ^^ Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. ^^ What to make of it? * "at home in the body" = alive. * "away from it" = dead. Spiritual Lesson No. 1: Whether we will be alive or will have already died at his coming, we should make it our goal to please the Lord. Paul says he would prefer to be dead, for though the body be dead the "real" Paul -- Paul's soul -- will be "at home with the Lord," meaning "housed with the Lord" even as he wrote he was "at home" with his body. We are not to make a 21st century scientific statement of this. We are to make a 21st century spiritual statment of it. We are to apply 1st century spiritual discernment to 21st century discernment. For, "Spiritual things are spiritually discerned." Spiritual Lesson No. 2: If I belong to Christ, life after physical death -- even before the Second Coming -- is preferable this life. And I don't think that this text teaches us any science at all. Spiritual Lesson No. 3: "We walk by faith, not by sight." Therefore, do not try to use science (or nature observation combined with human inductive reasoning) as a substitute for faith. What do you think? Max | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max and Colleen, Yeh, that's good for me!!! But what about these die hard soul sleepers that think that God promises them eternal life, then jerks it away while their bodies become worm food? Grrrr;-(((( Still need help!......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Hello Maryann, How interesting that someone else's belief [Mom's?] should make you go, "Grrrr;-((((." What do I think of those who believe in soul-sleeping? I would refer you to John 21:19-23 NIV: ^^ Then he [Jesus] said to him [Peter], ìFollow me!î Peter turned and saw that the disciple [John] whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, ìLord, who is going to betray you?î) When Peter saw him [John], he asked, ìLord, what about him?î Jesus answered, ìIf I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.î ^^ In other words, our first priority is to follow Jesus. Let him lead. If he leads us into situations where we can witness to soul-sleepers, then so be it. Remember that Peter did NOT follow Jesus, not at the crucial time, at least. Nor did any disciple. Even John fled. But itís better if we follow. Besides all that, the gospel is primary: Preach that first and foremost. Nuf sed? Blessings, Max | ||
| sherry |
sorry I make you GRRr, Maryanne. It makes entirely no sense to me at all that Christ would come to resurrect dead who are already with Him with their souls. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Sherry, You didn't make me Grrrr! I said: "Yeh, that's good for me!!! But what about these die hard soul sleepers that think that God promises them eternal life, then jerks it away while their bodies become worm food? Grrrr;-((((" My Mom lives on my property and she has been back in the SDA Church for about a year now. She CONSTANTLY has 3ABN on and is constantly taping the shows. I have to listen to her stuff and tapes so she will listen to my stuff. It really is a senseless exercise since neither one of us really listens to the other! Max was right when he guessed it was my Mom that made me go Grrrrr. I have the WHOLE SDA dribble right in my back yard and it makes me go Grrrrr quite often! So smile ;-)))) with me now! I really enjoy your post's. Keep them coming! Maryann | ||
| Lydell |
Sherry, I understand your questioning, as I've struggled with that one myself. I don't pretend to be able to explain everything! But when I was studying this subject a thought occurred to me. It seems that far too many of the errors in the SDA church are there because they began looking at a topic from the standpoint of what they think is their understanding of prophecy. Think about that for awhile, and I believe you will see what I mean. It seems to me that if we are going to understand this subject of death now, then we should be beginning the study from Christ's words when he was here on earth, rather than from what we think will be the way things may happen in the future. Look at the Bread of Life discourse in John 6: 43-51 I realize that the SDA's focus on the scriptures in this passage that say, "I will raise him up at the last day," but they sort of skim over the ones that say "he who believes HAS everlasting life." Notice he didn't say "the promise of getting everlasting life," but rather that you already have it. That certainly ties in with what we find in John 8:51 "I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death." If we will never see death, yet our body dies, then this should tell us that there is SOME other part of us that will "never see death". Notice that when Stephen was dying, he cried out "Lord receive my spirit". So evidently his understanding was that some part of him was going to continue at the moment of death. In Romans 8:38 we are told that even death can't separate us from the love of God. That would explain why the death of the righteous is a precious thing in His sight. Why would it be a precious thing if they were cut off from communication and fellowship with him by intervening years between death and resurrection? Take a new look at II Cor. 5:1-9 The SDA's have always said, "well Paul was just saying that he would rather be home with the Lord than here on earth." But the whole passage really indicates that there are only two choices of where we can be: we are either housed in the body or home with the Lord. Then there is Phillipians 1:21-23. How is it gain for a Christian to die if it means that we will be cut off from communion with Christ while we "sleep" in the ground? II Tim. 3:10 tells us that for the believer, death has already been destroyed, and life and immortality have already been brought to light. I John 3:14 "We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers." And again I John 5:11-13 says that we HAVE eternal life. Does it really make sense that the Lord would give us eternal life, then snatch it back while we "sleep"? If HE says that we already have eternal life, then there must be some part of us that truly can not now die. So really, the whole subject of what happens at death begins with a study of what is the soul and/or spirit. Does your breath communicate with God? Is it just your intellect? Or is it something more? | ||
| Colleentinker |
Well said, Lydell. Sherry, Jesus came to redeem all of us. Our spirits, the part (intangible) of us that knows and loves him, is the first thing redeemed. He makes us alive when we accept him. We will never be apart from him again! (It almost makes me feel like crying when I actually think of how wonderful that is after a lifetime of dreading an undeterminded limbo.) He also redeems our bodiesóa remarkable reality that puts enormous value on ALL of us. Jesus himself took on a human body, and after his resurrection, he took on a resurrection body. For eternity Jesus will be our human brother. Our bodies will be redeemed later. Our spirits are redeemed when we accept Jesus. I don't believe our spirits are complete without our bodies. But spiritually, we will never be apart from Jesus' love. The amazing thing is that he will make us complete again, and we'll be tangible as well as spiritual! I don't understand it all scientifically, but this is the best way I can explain it.! | ||
| sherry |
I always understood those references from death to life as the type of death Jesus experienced that we as believers do not experience - absolute, total seperation from God. We do not experience that death (which is the second death for those not in Christ). This sleep/1st death takes none of eternal life from me. When I die, the reality will be for me that the next waking moment will be to see Jesus coming again in the clouds...because I have no idea of time in the grave, it is in reality the very next moment after I die that I will see Jesus face to face. To me that is glorious, and I see that that makes loads of sense in the framework of the whole Bible. SDA's were not the first to believe that either. I also have a book in my library by a Christian Reformed (I think - not SDA anyhow)gentleman/pastor who was going to prove to soul-sleepers that the Bible proved we went straight to heaven. He thoroughly researched every text in the Bible he could...and guess what he concluded? He found that the idea of sleep/death was indeed Scripturally accurate. I haven't read it in a while, but I'll dig it out and list the tile and author for anyone interested. And you're right Colleen, we will never be apart from Jesus' love. Even as I sleep, I shall never be apart from Him. Because that is the glorious Lord we serve! We are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb for forever. Glad to chat with you all. | ||
| Bill Twisse |
Maryann, you stated a couple of days ago: "Hi Bill, Few days no hear. You said: 'The Bible does teach that the spirit of man is absolutely without end:' Could you do a short version study on that? I'm sorta drowning in this issue. The water is a little deep. Just get me started a bit. Please....make sure you put your own concepts and view in it. Makes it 'twice as more easier' for me to understand. " Sorry for being late Maryann! I just got home from 2 1/2 weeks on the road and am trying to catch up. It is 4:30 in the morning where I am, I have jetlag, and I still can't sleep! Sound familiar to anyone? I'm sure it does. I appreciate the comments of the rest of you all. The spirit is the eternal part of man's nature. Of course, it will be joined to a final body in the judgment. The conclusion of the Bible about the ultimate state of mankind, separated into 2 groups, reveals the nature of how man was created & what type of destiny was appointed for him. In the final judgment, there is eternal glory & happiness in Christ for the saved and eternal shame for the lost. God's eternal purpose is for the saved in Christ to rule & reign over the unsaved. That is my thinking but I know it needs clear biblical support. I will develop this thought more at a later time. In the gospel, Twisse | ||
| Max |
Dear all, I've heard the SDA doctrine of death described as "celestus interruptus." Real grace alone, Max | ||
| Max |
Powerful post, Lydell. | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
The problem with thinking of the first death as being "asleep" but not "separated" from God is that it's a word game. In truth, if body and spirit are "asleep" for an undetermined amount of time before the resurrection (hours to thousands of yearsÖ), even though in our "sleeping" state we don't know time is passing, in reality we ARE separated from God. Even if he holds our memory in his heart, we are not actually connected. It's a semantics game to pretend we're really still connected. On the other hand, the fact that our souls stay connected to God does not necessarily mean that our conscious mind as we know it here stays active and alert. Our brains, after all, are part of our bodies. On the other hand, we don't know what our spirits know in God's presence. There is some way in which Paul's statement that it was better by far to be absent from the body and present with the Lord was actually true. And there is something besides metaphorical truth or word games in Jesus' statement that when we have believed in him we pass from death to life, and that even though we die, we shall live. Again, Paul says that nothingóneither life nor death nor anything can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Yes, I understood that text to mean that our memory or DNA or blueprint would forever be in the heart of God, and he would reconstruct/resurrect me in love from whatever that was. But I don't see that teaching to be supported in the Bible. I remember once having a friend say to me (upon the death of an extremely significant person in my life), "God feels sad along with you, because His friend is now dead, and He can't talk to him anymore, either." That scenario describes distinct separation! I've come to believe that if the Bible says we won't be separated from the love of God in Christ Jesus, we won't be separated. There is mystery about how all this plays out, but we can know that God is true to his word. Colleen | ||
| Jeff H. |
I haven't studied this in detail but one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that God is outside of time and what is linear time to us is not linear with him. Maybe our spirits go to him but they go directly to that time in the future. I really don't understand this either but in thinking of time we need to remember that it is different than how God thinks of time. The whole theory of relativity is an example of how bizarre time is. Anyway I hope that provokes some thought |
