| Author | Message | ||
| Steve |
Hi DJConklin, You've got my curiosity up now. I've been struggling with understanding the "official" position of the SDA church, both as understood by those in leadership as well as the masses of believers who seem to go any which way with their beliefs. You say: ". . . most, if not all, of you have been seriously mis-led about what constitutes "SDA'ism"." I'd really like to know how I've been misled. I knew of Questions on Doctrine before I joined the church in 1985. However, over the last 15 years, my experience has been that evangelical Christianity seems to be missing from most of the church. So what are the real positions of the church on various matters? How have I been misled? After all, I've listened to various leaders in the church preach and teach on a number of topics. I've heard a number of things over the 15 years. What should I be listening to and what should I be throwing out? If I've been "seriously misled" I really want to know in which ways. Steve | ||
| Steve |
Patti is right. I am following that advice and am shopping around. For three weeks I attended a wonderful church near Riverside. Last Sunday (I almost wrote "Sabbath"!) I attended another wonderful church and will attend there for the next couple of weeks. After that, I'm going to attend a few more churches in the area (LARGE area) before I make up my mind about where I will attend. I agree with Patti, it's not the denomination, but the individual pastor/preacher and teachings of the local congregation. I no longer will be looking for the "truest" church, but will be specifically avoiding churches that teach outright falshoods, or mix works with grace. I've even toyed with the idea of not going to church for a while. But I realize two problems with that: 1) I might get comfortable not going to church. Starting again after a "sabbatical" from church could do more damage than good. 2) When I do go back again, my mind may not be as sharp and sensitive as it is now to the issues of grace and good Bible teaching. As a youngster, my parents taught me how to shop well. I'm using some of the same principles now as I look around, i.e., good quality for the "money" (my personal investment in what's happening). I've always been able to spot good quality in material products. I only hope that the Spirit guides me in my search for "spiritual products." Steve | ||
| Djconklin |
Steve, I have noted several times here where comments were made about what the church supposedly teaches (some pastor might have; Americans tend to be so trusting) which I had never ever heard. So, I'd suggest you see some of those previous messages. A recent one would be about the Sabbath being the sign that it is God who sanctifies us. Another would be about the Ten commandments being the moral law. Off hand I can't remember the rest. David Conklin | ||
| Cindy |
DJConklin, Hi! I am glad you are here posting! I am really interested in WHY you don't go to church?? Also, I am very interested to read your views on why you think most of us here "have been seriously mis-led about what constitutes S.D.A.ism." I feel I have a fairly full knowledge about S.D.A.ism. I have been steeped in it since birth and have seen the best and worst of it. Maybe I can share more of my history sometime... but for now, please tell me why you think we've been mis-led. What actually constitutes Adventism for you? Lastly, I wouldn't need a doctrinal dissertation from you in stating your reasons for your faith. I know I could never give a complex answer! I just believe that Christ was crucified for me!! I've read and believed that this wonderful gift of Grace is the Act of GOD by which He Declares Sinners to be Righteous by Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, Because of CHRIST Alone!! Please forgive me if I've ever chewed you up for your opinions...I know a lot of us here are kind of opinionated, myself included! I like to think of this as a confidence in the Gospel and a jealousy for Jesus Alone. But it may have come across the wrong way... In debt to His Mercy always, Cindy | ||
| Susan |
Patti, great advice about finding a grace-centered church. I think that's of utmost importance. Maryann, thanks for the reminder about training our kids. Your sooo right about the cults. If only Christians were as aggressive with education as they are! Cindy, not only have we been members with the CRC, but we currently are PCA. They are truly a Christ, grace and bible-centered fellowship. I think someone mentioned the PCA on another thread. Something about the moral law in the Confession? In my opinion, those who are not former SDA, do not share the same passion for studying the Sabbath. I haven't found the PCA to be legalist at all. It just seems like they haven't focused much on old covenant vs new. It isn't a matter of salvation for them. Their salvation doesn't depend on the law in any way. They seem to be very sure of their salvation in Christ and what that means. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents! Sherry2, I understand your frustration with the S.S. thing. It's not uncommon for people that leave cults or spiritually abusive churches to experience a sort-of "let-down", when they try other churches. For a long time I went through this. I hopped around from one congregation to the other. But, now I realize that there isn't a church that has everything I want. And, that's o.k. I just need a place to worship God, have fellowship with other believers and know my children are receiving sound/biblical education. It's perfectly fine to supplement with other churches. I know people at our church who go to other churches for things like, AWANA(?sp), Ash Wed.and lent services, VBS, bible studies and more. I think one reason folks have trouble when they come out of Adventism, is because it's not like other churches. Just like Mormonism and JW are different, so is the SDA experience. There isn't the need to consume every aspect of your life in Christian churches like Sda's do. You see, most Christians realize that Christianity isn't about a church at all. It's about a relationship with the living God, Jesus Christ. For most Christians, the thing that binds us together is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I can visit any church (Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian or Evangelical Free, etc.!) and there is that common bond. We are one in Christ despite our differences. Do any of you out there know what I'm talking about? This feeling of bonding with fellow Christians? I've connected with brothers and sisters in Christ that I've just meet, or talked to only on the phone or through the web. Sometimes there's a connection with another mom at the park/grocery store/library etc. , and come to find out they're a Christian too. This is a new thing for me, an awareness of this connection. Sorry if I sound crazy, just wondering if anyone else knows what I mean??? Anyway, there's a book that helped me, "Out of the Cults and Into the Church" by Janis Hutchinson (I think I got it from Amazon?). It's mostly the conversations of 4 former cult members, in a support group setting with the author. She/Janis is a former Mormon and the folks she features were, a Moonie, a Hare Krishna and also some other Mormons. Their experiences were very similar to coming out of Adventism. Some of the chpt. titles are; "No, you're Not Cracking up, Culture Shock, Conflict of the soul, No "quick fix", Loss of roots/story/and identity," etc. Each chpt. also gives Christians advice on how to help former cult members. I've babbled on long enough. Blessings to you all! Susan | ||
| Bruceh |
Here is some of the best of EGW. WHAT IS THE SEAL OF GOD FOR THE CHRISTIAN? EGW- Testimonies for the Church Volume Eight PG.117 The sign, or seal, of God is revealed in the observance of the seventh-day Sabbath, the Lord's memorial of creation. BIBLE- EPH. 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 2 COR. 1:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. EPH. 1:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. CAN WE FREELY PRAY FOR THE SICK? EGW- Healthful Living PG.237 We should first find out if the sick one has been withholding tithes or has made trouble in the church. BIBLE- MATT. 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick. IS VEGETARIANISM REQUIRED OF GOD1S PEOPLE EGW-Counsels on Diet and Foods PG. 36 Those who have received instruction regarding the evils of the use of flesh foods, tea and coffee, and rich and unhealthful food preparations, and who are determined to make a covenant with God by sacrifice, will not continue to indulge their appetite for food that they know to be unhealthful. God demands that the appetites be cleansed, and that self-denial be practiced in regard to those things which are not good. This is a work that will have to be done before His people can stand before Him a perfected people. BIBLE- 1 TIM. 4:1-3 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; 3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. THE BRAIN CONTAINS ANIMAL ORGANS, WIGS CAUSE RECKLESSNESS IN MORALS. EGW- Healthful Living PG.185 The artificial hair and pads covering the base of the brain heat and excite the spinal nerves centering in the brain. The head should ever be kept cool. The heat caused by these artificial coverings induces the blood to the brain. The action of the blood upon the lower or animal organs of the brain, causes unnatural activity, tends to recklessness in morals, and the mind and heart are in danger of being corrupted. Bruce Heinrich Bh Bh | ||
| Bmorgan |
Susan, Great post! I agree with everything you said. We have been blessed tremendously finding a great church without too much searching. It is far away from us but we like the fellowship there. We take the boys to another church for AWANA and I do a Bible study at my church and one other church. Yes, people are connected by the indwelling Spirit. At first, I was amazed that a number of people attending the Bible study group were not even members of the church and it did not matter. They spoke the same language-life in Christ. The bonding with fellow christians is stronger than the superficial relationship with sda with whom you shared only one thing in common-cultic doctrines. A year ago I was still comparing the church with sda, and Whitishness (unconsciously). Now, with much of the whiteness gone and fading away, I enjoying it even more. BMorgan | ||
| Bruceh |
More EGW and the lesser Light. BABIES WHO NURSE FROM OTHERS WILL INHERIT THE WETNURSE1S MORALS EGW- Healthful Living PG 145 Mothers sometimes depend upon a hireling.. . . A stranger performs the duties of the mother, and gives from her breast the food to sustain life. Nor is this all. She also imparts her temper and her temperament to the nursing child. The child's life is linked to hers. If the hireling is a coarse type of woman, passionate and unreasonable; if she is not careful in her morals, the nursling will be, in all probability, of the same or similar type. The same quality of blood coursing in the veins of the hireling nurse is in that of the child. SEXUAL UNION BETWEEN MAN AND BEAST IS EVIDENT IN CERTAIN RACES OF MEN EGW-Spiritual Gifts. Volume 3 PG75 Every species of animal which God had created were preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. WHEN WAS THE PLAN OF SALVATION MADE ? EGW- THE GREAT CONTROVERSY, 1888 PG 347 The kingdom of grace was instituted immediately after the fall of man, when a plan was devised for the redemption of the guilty race. It then existed in the purpose and by the promise of God; and through faith, men could become its subjects. Yet it was not actually established until the death of Christ. BIBLE- 2 TIM. 1:9 who saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before times eternal. EPH. 1:4,5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, WAS ADAM DECEIVED ? EGW-The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Four PG.352 Eve yielded to temptation, and through her influence Adam also was deceived. BIBLE-1 TIM 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. ARE SIN OR TRESPASS OFFERINGS STILL TO BE MADE BY CHRISTIANS? EGW-Testimonies for the Church Volume Five PG 399 You could at least have made efforts to correct your acts of injustice to your fellow men. You cannot make every case right, for some whom you have injured have gone into their graves, and the account stands registered against you. In these cases the best you can do is to bring a trespass offering to the altar of the Lord, and He will accept and pardon you. EGW-Testimonies for the Church Volume Three PG 408 Should all whom God has prospered with earth's riches carry out His plan by faithfully giving a tenth of all their increase, and should they not withhold their trespass offerings and their thank offerings, the treasury would be constantly replenished. EGW-Testimonies for the Church Volume Three PG. 510 But there has been a great neglect of duty. Many have withheld means which God claims as His, and in so doing they have committed robbery toward God. Their selfish hearts have not given the tenth of all their increase, which God claims. Neither have they come up to the yearly gatherings with their freewill offerings, their thank offerings, and their trespass offerings. EGW-The Acts of the Apostles PG 75 All our blessings come from His bountiful hand. In turn, He would have men and women show their gratitude by returning Him a portion in tithes and offerings--in thank offerings, in freewill offerings, in trespass offerings. Should means flow into the treasury in accordance with this divinely appointed plan,--a tenth of all the increase, and liberal offerings,--there would be an abundance for the advancement of the Lord's work. BIBLE- HEB 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; BIBLE- HEB.10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. WHEN DID SATAN TEMPT CHRIST? EGW-The Spirit of Prophecy Volume Two PG 89 As soon as Christ's long fast commenced, he was at hand with this temptations. He came clothed in light, claiming to be an angel sent from the throne of God to sympathize with Christ and relieve him from his suffering condition. He represented to him that God did not desire him to pass through the pain and self-denial which he had anticipated. He claimed to bear the message from Heaven that God only designed to prove the willingness of Christ to endure his test. BIBLE- MATT. 4:2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he afterward hungered. 3 And the tempter came and said unto him, If thou art the Son of God, command that these stones become bread. Bruce Heinrich I know this may be over kill if any body want more I will be glad to give more. Bh BH BH | ||
| Djconklin |
Cindy, >I am really interested in WHY you don't go to church?? That's my business. == >Also, I am very interested to read your views on why you think most of us here "have been seriously mis-led about what constitutes S.D.A.ism." Because some of the views that have been expressed here were utter nonsense. | ||
| Cindy |
Djconklin, Good morning! Thanks for responding. May God's Presence and Peace be real to you and may the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit today... Cindy | ||
| Lydell |
DJ, which views are utter nonsense. Please be specific. All I've seen here is folks sharing from their personal experience what they were taught and backing it up with direct quotes from EGW and the church. Steve, and whoever else might consider staying at home instead of finding a church. DON'T DO IT!!! It's a fast track to weirdness and spiritual death. We did that for nearly 8 years. I'm telling you, it's not the way to go! When you leave the SDA's you need the spiritual sandpaper of being around other Christians who can challenge your errors and give you the Biblical references to back it up. It's what will push you to stay in your own study of the word to find out what it truly says. If you stay at home, you will be inclined to tell yourself that maybe EGW isn't so dangerously wrong, maybe when the church just makes this change or that change then things will be better and you can go back. No, you need to be confronted with truth on a regular basis for the SDA walls of error to come tumbling down. Besides, if you stay home you will cut yourself out of the blessing of being in corporate worship. And you will cut yourself off from being confronted with the fact that what the Lord intends for His church to be is loving and supportive. Besides, there is someone out there who is literally waiting on the other side of your obediance for the ministry that YOU have to offer because of your experience in adventism. The things the Lord has been showing you is not just for you alone. He is doing it so that you can be used in ministry. And YES a resounding YES the Holy Spirit IS faithful to guide you to the place He wants you to be. Keep an open mind, He could kind of surprise you at first. It seems He waits to reveal His hand until we have truly given up our own vain efforts to rely on our own blinding brillance in figuring it all out. When He gets you in the right church you will KNOW that you have come home. It will be the same as the experience that has been mentione of meeting Christians and connecting. You will just KNOW. Blessings on all of you who are still searching. | ||
| Djconklin |
Lydell, I have recently posted several examples of views that are nonsense--btw, most of which were unsubstantiated by anything. The latest one is the claim that SDA's belive that Jesus had a sinful nature--"substantiated" by a quote from QOD, not EGW. I've been an at home Christian for 10 years now. It was precisely because of the "sandpaper" Christians who don't study that helped drive me out of the church. I keep in spiritual shape by studying the Bible in-depth and by dialoging with others online--either through email lists or boards like this (having to answer questions with sound Biblical doctrine is not only very rewarding in its own right but it forces me to dig deeply into things I probably never would have even looked at--look at my web page where I looked at the date of the book of Daniel and the meaning of the word "'almah" in Isa. 7:14--both of these studies were the fruit of being engaged online on those every points. When I'm finished with Col. 2:16-17 (another 40 sources or so to go!) I intend to look at "chierographon" in vs. 14 and then Heb. 4--both spurred on by dealing with people who made various claims about them. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi David, I haven't been following the discussion for a couple weeks. I don't feel like going back and reading everything. I have some questions for you: What is your stand on EGW? Do you agree or dis-agree that she is a "true" prophet? Either way, would you explain? Is the SDA denomination the "true" remnant? Either way, why? Is the 3 angels message the "final" message? Either way, why? Is the Sabbath the seal? If not, what is? Maryann | ||
| Steve |
Lydell, Right on! That's why I'm not going to just stay at home. I don't want to become weird (I already am, hee hee). David, how to you respond to the scripture that specifically states that we should not avoid the gathering of believers (assembly of the saints)? I think it's in Hebrews, but I'm not sure. You say that sandpaper Christians who don't study drove you out of the church. Do you not think that God wants you to be accountable to someone personally, rather than to this community of electrons? Perhaps God wants you to be in a fellowship or congregation where you can provide insights to others, in a loving compassionate manner where they otherwise would not receive that? Dunno, just a thought. Steve | ||
| Djconklin |
Maryann, >>What is your stand on EGW? Do you agree or dis-agree that she is a "true" prophet? Either way, would you explain? I have yet to be shown any real evidence that she wasn't. As I have pointed out before some people have made some very wild claims against her and when I examined the evidence for myself they came up woefully short. >>Is the SDA denomination the "true" remnant? Either way, why? Since you use the word "denomination" I would say that the answer to your question is "No." >>Is the 3 angels message the "final" message?Either way, why? Why wouldn't it be? >>Is the Sabbath the seal? If not, what is? I take Sabbath observance to be the outward, tangible, sign of the seal of the HG. | ||
| Djconklin |
Steve, >>David, how to you respond to the scripture that specifically states that we should not avoid the gathering of believers (assembly of the saints)? I think it's in Hebrews, but I'm not sure. You say that sandpaper Christians who don't study drove you out of the church. Do you not think that God wants you to be accountable to someone personally, rather than to this community of electrons? Unlike some I am willing to acknowledge that I could be in error; in this case it would be by not going to a physical building to worship. However, if we take a larger view of community (and I certainly think of others as more than just a mass of electrons--even tho' that's what we are!) then I can best worship God by showing that they have been mis-led about Scripture. Every so often I get email from people who have thanked me for pointing out how the views they once held were in error. >Perhaps God wants you to be in a fellowship or congregation where you can provide insights to others, in a loving compassionate manner where they otherwise would not receive that? Unfortunately, my social skills lie somewhere between zip and none and I'm very quick to take offense at their repeated "slights" (to put the best face on it) so I have found it best to leave them to their cozy little world and go exploring elsewhere. I also learn a lot more. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi David, Thank you for your answers. I do admire you for actually answering. Could you define remnant? I was involved in a group that did NOT accept the SDA denomination as the "remnant". We all revolved around our little group of very devoted and sincere people that were the "true remnant". We all went to our various home churchs. We all went to campmeetings with just us as the "true remnant". We were taught that we were blessed beyond expression to be the "true remnant". Another question; are you "ready" or do you need to "get ready"? Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, I would like to butt in briefly. There is only one true and faithful Remnant. Jesus Christ. Galatians 3:16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Right on!!! If we are "in" Christ, we are new creatures. If we are "in" Christ we ARE in the remnant! And that means to me that all who believe in the all sufficient, finished work of Christ, are though Him, the remnant. Isn't it wonderful to know that we, as gospel believing Christians, are one with one another and are the "fully paid for and spotlessly clean" remnant. We don't have to have a denomination or prophet in common! We only have to have Christ in common!! Remnant with you in Christ.....Maryann | ||
| Patti |
Maryann, Seems that your brother is not the only one in the family that has come a long way! I love to hear you say those things! You made my day! Patti |
