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Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2000 - 6:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Page,

You don't need our brains except to support and maybe sometimes to gently disagree, but certainly not to tug you around.

Loved your point exposing the mistake of searching Scripture and not finding Christ.

Many Evangelicals are so tied up in "the Word," which they mistakenly assume is the Bible, that they fall into the same trap you so wisely warned against: searching but not finding.

My point is no different from yours: Christ alone is the Word. And the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is not, and cannot be, more than just a witness to that Word.

Grace and peace,

Jude
Plain Patti
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2000 - 6:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said, as usual, Jude. :)
Thank you!

Patti
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 7:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LAW = CHRIST?

I've had an epiphanic discovery over Easter weekend, brought on by meditating on two scriptures in the light of Jesus hanging on the cross:

FIRST TEXT: Ephesians 2:14-16 NIV:

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two ["the uncircumcised" = Gentiles and "the circumcised" = Jews of Paul's day] one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by ABOLISHING IN HIS FLESH THE LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND REGULATIONS. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

SECOND TEXT: 2 Colossians 2:13-15 NIV:

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. HE forgave us all our sins, having CANCELED THE WRITTEN CODE, WITH ITS REGULATIONS, THAT WAS AGAINST US AND THAT STOOD OPPOSED TO US; HE TOOK IT AWAY, NAILING IT TO THE CROSS. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

My discovery: That I should write a manifesto laying out my position very clearly. And so....

JUDEíS MANIFESTO:

Letís not content ourselves only with an effective DEFENSE against the SDA attacks. These attacks are motivated by self-appointed ìpowers and authoritiesî who entice gullible Christians to follow asceticism -- such as:

* Vegetarianism or at least kosher-ism (no clam chowder).

* Dress codes (no slacks on women in church).

* Jewelry-and-makeup regulations (no wedding rings).

* Sabbath-day restrictions (no swimming before sundown).

* Other abstinent measures (no praising God by dancing [Psalm 150:4] in church and no glass of chablis with dinner).

These are false teachings about Christ! Why permit them the power of attack and accusation? Why not attack THEIR false doctrines and accuse THEM of trying to dethrone Jesus Christ and strip him of his full and all-sufficient Godhood (I AM = YAWEH)?

Iím serious.

The key to this dispute is the nature of the eternal law of God. There are two sides:

SDAs, who say Jesus Christ came to show people how to keep the Law of Moses better.

FAFs, who say Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses, right down to the least comma and tee-crossing, and to REPLACE it IN TOTALITY with himself (words and deeds).

And furthermore, to replace ALL of it -- including "no murder" and "no adultery" -- by setting a HIGHER STANDARD -- such as "no hatred" and "no lustful thoughts" -- with his own superior life and teachings. For, in him our Father found zero sin in either thought or word or deed!

I say that the two texts quoted above prove that Jesus Christ ABOLISHED and CANCELED the Law of Moses and NAILED it in all its entirity to the cross! And that he REPLACED it with no less than himself!

That's what I say! What do YOU say?

Soliciting only your prayerful, personally considered convictions,

Jude
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2000 - 9:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Jude,

Good thoughts. It brought to mind a bit of my past horse training days when you mentioned "Setting a Higher Standard".

When I was working with a young horse and even a horse that was older and well broke, I had this "NEED" to teach then to jump. First thing was to lay a rail on the ground and let the horse sniff it and then step him over it. I'd do this till the horse was comfortable stepping over the rail. Next, I'd raise the rail 6 or so inches. Now that it was off the ground, the horse if it was particularly stubborn :-), would side step and maybe even squeal a bit. With a little encouragement, the horse would eventually go over the rail. As time went by, the horse would accept a higher and higher rail. Soon, with the trust of the trainer, the horse would actually look forward to what ever was presented to him out on the trail. When we first believe and with one hand "let go" and "let God",and the other hand, we squeal, carry on, side step, buck, kick and fight, we are in the trials of infancy. As we trust Him more and more the grip on the fighting and squealing weakens and we begin to see what's ahead and thank God for setting higher standards.

Now, the moral to the story is growth. If the horse goes though each step, he is growing. If the horse suddenly decides to side step a jump he has already jumped, there is a problem. If we as "Believers" grow from one step to another, we are doing what we are expected to do; GROW. If we have to go over and over the same one again and again there is a problem. If we try to side step something we have already been though, there is a problem.

Observation: Y'all have heard an awful lot of sqealing from my direction!

I have a question to ask all participants. I just need to find catagory to put it under.

Maryann
Colleentinker
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2000 - 10:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

JudeóYou are absolutely right. The whole Mosaic system was replaced by Jesusóby God himself!
Darrell
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2000 - 1:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to share an explanation which I heard recently from a friend. He has a young daughter, and said that the Law for her is that whenever they cross the street she will hold his hand. But clearly, it would not be appropriate if 20 years from now she is still believing that she has to hold his hand every time she crosses the street. Eventually she will learn about safety, and will understand what she needs to do to be safe. But being only a few years old she cannot understand all that now, and so needs the law of "hold my hand".
Bruce H
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2000 - 9:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Darrell

Great point and we need to remember that some
people need the Law for the same reason. We must
let God mature them in his own time.

BH
Maryann
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2000 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would this be a correct statement? The amount of "law" we need is directly proportionate to amount of "faith" we don't have?

Maryann
Jude the Obscure
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2000 - 3:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like that statement, Maryann.
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2000 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like it too, Maryann!
Bruce H
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2000 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann

That is what the Bible says.
Aurelio
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to receive comments on Jeremiah 31:31-33.

I heard a SDA pastor explaining those verses and saying that the new covenant is a change of place of the law. In the old covenant the law was written in tables of stones. In the new covenant the law is written in the heart. But the law is the same including the Sabbath.
Steve
Posted on Friday, July 28, 2000 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Aurelio,

I've not seen you post here before. Welcome.

Jeremiah 31:31-33 is a favorite of SDA pastors. It is used to teach that the ten commandment law, which was on tablets of stone, will be written in our hearts.

But we don't often go onto the next verse. In Jer. 31:34 it is unmistakeable that this occurs at a time when EVERYONE knows the Lord. It specifically says "from the least of them to the greatest of them". I would ask anyone if EVERYONE knows the Lord. I personally don't think that everyone knows the Lord.

If the law that is written in our hearts is equivalent to the law that was given to Moses, 430 years after Abraham (See Galatians 3:17) then we have really got a lot of problems.

There are many laws that we no longer keep. Any SDA pastor will agree that there are commandments (they may say "ordinances") that we no longer keep. They will say that those are "ceremonial" in nature, making a distinction between laws that are arbitrarily called "ceremonial" and "moral."

However, in reading scripture, you'll find that such a distinction is never made. All of the law was given by God for Israel.

However, when Jesus came, lived, died, and ascended to heaven, there came a change in the law.

Hebrews 7:11-12 says: Now if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood (for on the basis of it the people received the Law), what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron? 12 For when the priesthood is CHANGED, of necessity there takes place a CHANGE of law also. (NASB, emphasis mine.)

The SDA understanding of the Law is Levitical. However, the Christian understanding of the Law is based on a different priesthood, and a different law. Jesus came after the order of Melchizedek. Melchizedek, if you recall, was the King and Priest of the Most High God, in Salem. (See Genesis 14:17-20.)

It is the new covenant, the Law of Jesus Christ Himself, that is written in our hearts. Jesus clearly showed that the ten commandments were insufficient. He supported some, changed others (hate, lust), and broke others (sabbath).

The purpose of the OT Law was to prepare for the coming of a Savior. Once the Law fulfilled it's purpose, of revealing how sinful mankind really is, then in the fullness of time, Jesus Christ came to us.

If the law simply changed places, as you heard a SDA pastor explaining, then we are still under Levitical law, and should start sacrificing bulls and lambs.

But Jesus came, destroying in His Person, that enmity (Law of commandments) that was against us (See Ephesians 2:11-16). We, who were not Israel, were not under Law. But Jesus came and grafted us (Gentiles and Israel) into one vine (Himself).

I'm sure many others here will also provide some insights into your query.

God Bless you Aurelio, and please continue to bless us with your presence.

Steve
Terry
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, I am new to this site and want to say I appreciate the honesty and vulnerability of all who post here. I am a FAF for two years now, and have a passion for evangelizing SDA's. It is one of the most impossible tasks on the planet! Can someone tell me if there is a FAF group that meets in the Angwin/St. Helena/Napa area of California? Thanks, again.
In Christ alone,
Terry Beckham-St. Helena, CA
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 2:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Terry,

Welcome!! ;-))

You said:

"I am a FAF for two years now, and have a passion for evangelizing SDA's. It is one of the most impossible tasks on the planet!"

I had to chuckle at that. HOW TRUE!

I lived on the Foote Ranch near Calistoga when I was a kid last century (100 years ago;-)!

There is a FAF member in your area and maybe if they want to, can get with you if you are close enough. I also have a die hard, Des Ford SDA type, that lives in Calistoga that needs some light! I really don't think there is a FAF group near you. Maybe YOU are the one that God intends on starting one. You are in an SDA saturated area and I'll bet you could get one started.

You said you had "a passion for evangelizing SDA's", so that is a good start. This site is a great place to get your feet wet!

Max, one of the original posting giants is in the process of re-computerizing himself and has been offline for to long. He, like you and a lot of others here, have a "burn" for the SDA's. Hope your're around to chat with him when he gets back.

Glad you are here and hope to hear your story.

Maryann
Sherry2
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome Terry! I'm a newer FAFer. Been here online for two months....Have been richly blessed. Glad to have ya here with us. Sherry
Terry
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2000 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Maryann and Sherry, for the welcome! I will persue talking with your friend, Maryann, if you will put him in touch with me. I have a roommate that is a die hard Des Ford type...still caught up with the Sabbath thing. It seems that many of those who give up EGWhite stop there and quit growing. They cling to most of the SDA tenets, still. Have either of you had any success with close friends or family, who are SDAs, in getting them to open up and listen to what you have discovered in your studies? If so, maybe you could give me some insight as to how to get my friends to not be so fearful of questioning their own paradigm.
Colleentinker
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Terry.

There is no FAF group near you right now.

My experience is that there's no way to get an Adventist not to be afraid to question. It is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit. I know it sounds pat, but truly the most effective thing you can do is to pray for them.

Also, sharing your own experience is something with which they cannot argue. Your walk with the Lord is personal, and they cannot argue when you talk about it.

I've found that sometimes God puts situations into my life in which he gives me unforseen chances to "be there" for Adventist friends that I couldn't have contrived myself. I haven't seen them change their minds yet, but I know they question the doctrines. I'm just asking God to send his Spirit to them and to show me how to pray for them.

The Battle is the Lord's!
Colleen
Loneviking
Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 4:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Terry!

I have fond memories of climbing the rock face at the Safeway in St. Helena---the store manager always knew when the guys in the rock climbing class at PUC were in town!

I'm surprised at your frustration. PUC must have changed in the last twenty years. When I was there Des Ford was teaching and Morrie Venden was senior pastor, and the contemporary Christian music scene was going wide open. It seemed that most folks were questioning doctrine and really studying.

On another thread Colleen said it best when she said that most SDA's are afraid to question. You just have to hang around and wait until they get ready.................
Maryann
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2000 - 11:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Y'all,

I finished a very thought provoking book and wanted something easy to read but couldn't find anything. So I thought I'd start reading John. What I found was quite interesting to me.

I found John 1:17 :-) I decided to search the FAF archives to see if that verse was addressed before. I found it mentioned 2 times by "jtree" in the previous discussion with Ken some months ago. Actually, it was fun reminiscing through some of the "Ken dialogue" and I found this by Ken:

"I think it's unanimous that everyone here, except of course me thinks that Moses's law and God's law are the same or interchangeable."

That is the VERY thing that seems so hard to get an SDA to understand. Grrrrrrrrrrrrr

Anyway, back to John 1:17. Greek-English Literal Translation says:

"For the Law was given through Moses, (but) grace and truth has come into being through Jesus Christ."

Here is one root of many roots of many problems that an SDA has instilled in them since before birth. It is soooooooooooo frustrating.

They (the SDA's that I know) say, of course I believe in that, BUT, that was the law of Moses NOT the Law of God! (I ask, just what part of the Bible is NOT God's word?)

Romans 3:20-24 Same GK-Eng:

"Because by works of law not (one of) all flesh will be justified before Him, for through law (is) full knowledge of sin. 21...But now a righteousness of God has been revealed apart from Law, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22...even the righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ toward all and upon all the (ones) believing; for there is no difference, 23...for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God, 24...having been justified freely by His grace through the redemption of Christ Jesus,"

The gospel is soooooooooo simple if only it could be grasp by the fist so tightly squeezed on church doctrine.

You will get agreement all day long that God's grace is better than Moses' law. BUT, the 10 C are tied to God's grace NOT Moses' Law they say.

One day soon, I WILL be able to defend my faith. I just have this burning desire to do that.

Upward and onward........Maryann

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