| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Maryann: One day soon, I WILL be able to defend my faith. I just have this burning desire to do that. Patti: Sounds to me like you are doing a pretty good job of that now, Maryann! Keep up the good work! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Thank you for the affirmation;-) When I see all you guys just spill all this stuff so easily, I get envious. I have to work pretty hard to work up even a small study. I'm very happy to say that all you guys are such an inspiration to me and good example too! (Even Wendy Hee hee hee, she is so sincere;-) What is so cool is that you guys have "exampled" me so much that I have a pretty good understanding of the gospel and can sorta ad-lib it without the verses:-)) I'm so happy about that! Thank you...all of you, again....Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Maryann! Now what is that supposed to mean "even Wendy"? :) I'll take that as the compliment I know it was, you goof. :):):):):):):):):):):):):) Wendy.com | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Yes, ih' twas, a compliment. Just checking to see if you are reading or skimming;-) Hee hee hee haw Maryann | ||
| Dennisrainwater |
Hi Terry! I'm a little behind on this thread, but I just moved away from the St. Helena area recently. I'll bet we have some common ground. If you are interested in exploring this, you could e-mail me at rainwatr@ozarkmountains.com Dennis<>< | ||
| Terry |
Hey Dennis, I read your incredible testimony several months back on the "new perspectives" site. It is awesome. I will email you soon. I haven't been here for a few days...Hi to all. I had a two hour discussion on Saturday with my mother about the sabbath. She gave me a book to read: "A Bridge Across Time" by Dan M. Appel, stating that the book would explain why she kept the Sabbath. Have any of you read it? What a joke! This guy threads a story about him showing a Sunday keeper how the Sabbath is still binding...long story short: the Sunday keeper appears to be an ignoramous and the Sabbath keeper comes to his spiritual rescue. Dan Appel lies, manipulates Scripture, and is downright deceitful. Let me quote: on page 34 he states, "Romans 3:23 and 6:23 say that because we violate the law, we stand condemned by it." "The law just shows us that we are in rebellion against God." Further down the page he writes, "In Hebrews 8:6,10, it says that He (GOD)wants to write His Law (Singular) on our hearts." "That's the change( New Covenant?) that takes place when we're saved." He intentionally avoids verse 9, the context, and the rest of the chapter, both prior and following. After reading this, I could not sleep. It is outrageous! How can men of God be so deceitful? Anyway, enough of that! Hope everyone is peaceful in the Lord, Terry | ||
| Breezy |
Terry, Perhaps you couldn't sleep because there was a ring of truth and the Holy Spirit was tapping on your heart's door? Wendy | ||
| Loneviking |
Sorry Wendy, I have to emphatically disagree. I remember someone on this thread (Maryann?) wanting to know the texts showing that the Law and Covenant were the same. Let me take you on a short journey through this. Exodus 19:20-25....God orally gave the covenant first. The covenant is spelled out in Ex. 20-23. Then in Ex. 24:7 is recorded the reply of the Isrealites: "And he (moses) took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people and they said, All that the Lord has said will we do, and be obedient.' The Ten Commandments were part and parcel of this covenant! Then, do memorialize the covenant, in Chap. 24:12, God commands Moses as follows: 'And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the mount, and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written, that thou mayest teach them.' Remember, during the first recitation of the covenants, Moses wrote down what God had said. Now, God is going to inscribe on two tables of stone the same Law and Commandments. Now, chapters 25-31 of Exodus is a recitation of what God instructed Moses about during their time on the mountain. Note especially Ex. 31:16,17: 'Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath, throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel forever.' The sabbath was the covenant sign between the Jew and God. The sabbath was given to the Jews, NOT the Gentiles, nor the Egyptians, nor us! We cannot be a part of this covenant unless we are a Jew. For a description of what these two tablets looked like, see 32:15,16: 'And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand, the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written. And the tables were the work of God, and the writing was the writing of God graven upon the tables.' Note the use of the word 'Testimony'...meaning to 'testify', or the Hebrew word is 'witness'. Witness to what? The covenant between God and the Jew. Can it be shown that this 'witness' included the Ten Commandments? Look at Deuteronomy 10:4: 'And He (God) wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the Lord spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the Lord gave them unto me.' The Ten Commandments, the testimony, the covenant--all used interchangeably to refer to what was written on those tables of stone. Remember, this was a covenant between God and the Jew. Paul very clearly says in Gal. 3:17 that the Law came four hundred and thirty years after Abraham. Paul also says in verse 19, that the Law: 'was added because of transgressions'...... therefore it could NOT have existed before Sinai as the Law was an addition. Further, in verse 19, Paul also says that the Law was to continue until: ''till the seed shoud come to whom the promise was made'.. That seed, if you read all of this chap. of Galatians, is a reference to Christ. The Ten Commandments, along with the moral,cermonial,dietary and civil laws came in at Sinai and were done away with at Christs' death. The New Testament books of Romans, Hebrews and Galatians make clear that a new and superior covenant was, at the cross, put into place. It was NOT the same as the old. Yes, 'Gods law' is still part of it---but since 'Gods' law' existed before the covenant on Sinai and the Law given there was an addition---that is proof positive that 'Gods' law' is something other than the Ten Commandments. I know hearing this isn't going to make you happy Wendy, but if you are truly searching the scriptures to apply it to your life, sooner or later you will have to acknowledge this. I used to defend the Sabbath using all of the proof texts--until I went back and really started looking at what was being said. Then I realized that there was no way I could continue defending the Sabbath position. L.V. | ||
| Breezy |
No Lone Viking, You caved to pressure. Just like everyone else here. We are to be spiritual israel. We are to be the keepers of the covenant. If we do not we cannot enter in. Go ahead and keep trying though. Wendy | ||
| Sherry2 |
Wendy, I am very sorry you feel that way. I did not cave to any pressure. I got my Bible out and did a search with greek/hebrew, and looked up covenants and studied them all through Scripture. I wasn't looking to throw Sabbath out. I was looking for the truth. If you intentially close your heart to learning and seeking, you will not find it. That is the choice that you make. To lay it on the line and ask God if you have been believing a falsehood all these years, and willing to study it out thoroughly, not just to make your point work for you. I chose to be married to Jesus Christ, and I have come to see clearly from Scripture that the Sabbath was a sign of the Old Covenant, just as a wedding ring is a sign of the spousal covenant. When Hebrews makes it clear the old covenant is gone, and Romans and Galatians too, you understand that keeping the Sabbath says you are married to the Old Covenant, even though Christ has made a new covenant, and your "DO THIS IN REMEMBRANCE OF ME" Lord's supper is in the same language of the Sabbath covenant, you begin to realize that that is spiritual adultry to remain married to two. I am married to Jesus Christ and Him alone. The first covenant was fulfilled. The new covenant was one that started from the beginning of time until this age...that is why Abraham was saved through faith as well, before there ever was an old covenant. You will not be able to understand the awesomeness and the beauty of this until you can honestly humble yourself to the Lord of Sabbath (Lord of Rest) and really seek out answers, and get those concordances going, and study, study, study. | ||
| Patti |
Wendy: No Lone Viking, You caved to pressure. Just like everyone else here. Patti: It is very difficult for me to answer your judgment calls in a diplomatic way. It seems to me, though, Wendy, that you are forever sitting in judgment on us, but we cannot say a word to defend ourselves without being accused of being hostile. I say this sincerely as straight-forward as I can. You do not know of that which you speak. "Caving to pressure" would have meant STAYING SDA. Most of us left the church totally independently of anyone else. We only met here after the fact--for me 20+ years after the fact, and have been comforted by the fact that others, far removed from us in distance, have come to the same conclusions: that salvation is only in the completed work of Jesus Christ and that most of the "unique truths" of the SDA church contradict the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I do not mind your presence, even though you disagree with just about every word out of our mouths (well, mine anyway), but as I have tried to point out before, this forum is for the fellowship of former SDAs. It is not a proselytizing medium. It is supposed to be a place of renewal and refreshment of spirit, not a place where we have to constantly defend ourselves and to check our words very carefully so that they do not offend you and other stray SDAs that may wander in. You are here as the guest of Richard and Colleen, former SDAs. It makes me very uncomfortable when one makes blanket generalizations, such as you did with LV, when you have not walked that mile in his mocassins. I do not want you to leave, but if you do not like what we are saying, if it bothers you, perhaps you would be better off to hang out on SDA forums--there are many, you know. I do not wish to offend you, yet I have a hard time standing dumbly by while you say whatever you wish about us and our motives. Is it too much to ask that you grant us the same respect that you have been grante while you were here? I have been impressed with the lack of animosity these lovely people have shown you although you disagree on almost every point and constantly speculate on our motives. Not only a lack of animosity, but a great deal of love has been shown to you. And that, after all, is the bottom line: "By this shall they know that you are mine, that you lave love one for another." All I ask is that you show the same respect for us as has been shown to you. May God truly bless you this day, Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Susan |
Patti, I agree. It seems like there is so much going on. Frankly, I sit here scratching my head everyday about comments that Wendy makes. When you first came here Wendy, it seemed like you were searching for Truth and sruggling with many of the SDA teachings. Lately you sound like a hard-core, historic SDA. Why are you here? Do you like to have arguments? Are you trying to convert us? Or are you truly searching? I'm just trying to understand your motives. Like Patti mentioned, there are several SDA forums that would be more pleasant for you. Everyone would be in agreement. Are you with us because Adventism lacks an assurance of Salvation? We all have that here, is that why you dialog with us? Just trying to figure this out. Susan | ||
| Chyna |
i have to agree, also. i was puzzled because Wendy, you do seem like you are coming from the SDA position, hardcore. and your comments seem to be rather derogatory in nature towards other people's thoughts and comments. it is fine to disagree. no one is saying on here that everyone has to agree about every point of doctrine. what would be better is for you to disagree and then back up your stance with something Biblical. because (hopefully) we all take Scripture as the ultimate authority. I don't feel like anyone here is 'caving in' :), there would have to be pressure in order to cave in. as an observer of the Lord's Day (sunday), I have never once tried to persuade my Sabbath-keeping friends to stop going to church on Saturday. of course, now that I actually understand more about the Sabbath and what it was meant for as a symbol of rest from God, I would dispute the significance of observing Sabbath physically. I would never want to be known as a 'covenant keeper.' it sounds too much like it is of my own effort that I stay a Christian as long as I am a covenant keeper. as my teacher pointed out in the Bible, it is the part of the Covenant that God keeps towards us that is important. And in the new covenant that is Salvation. what was it? when they made a covenant they would place the halves? of the sacrifices so they made an aisle, and God passed between the two halves to signify the sealing of the Covenant? does anyone know where I'm getting this from? anyway, it is and was God who made the covenant possible in the first place. I am happy there is a new covenant. In Hebrews Paul calls the Old Covenant sons of Hagar - slaves. And that those under the New Covenant free men (and women :)) love, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
also Wendy, in regards to Terry. He was outraged that someone tried to use verses from the Bible omitting the context and the verses in between which would therefore weaken the case for the Jewish observance of the Sabbath. we all should get outraged and upset when false doctrine is being taught, and when teachings are properly put in view of the full context of the Bible and the message of Salvation. it kind of reminds me how in the early church there were home churches and men (false teachers) would come in and spread false doctrine to the trusting people. it reminds me of that story where three suitors were competing to win the princess and the King would play the flute and that's how the suitors could find their way through the forest. three men wanted to marry the princess. The King told them that they could bring one person along with them on their journey. the first man brought the strongest man in the kingdom with him. the second man brought the wisest man with him. the third man brought someone hooded with him (secret). in order to win the princess they had to make it through the treacherous forest where most got lost and died. The King would play his flute, one melody, three times a day, that way the men would know which way to get to the castle through the forest. after one week, the third man showed up, obviously very weary and strained. Everyone wanted to know how he got through! the man related, "Everyday when the King would play the flute, immediately after he played, a thousand other melodies would play mimicking the King's in every direction." they asked him how he knew which way to go. His companion uncloaked himself, it was the Prince! The Prince knew the father's melody and brought his flute and played the melody back, that way they knew which way to go. so we should be wise to follow the Prince's melody because only He knows exactly what the Father's is. the danger in this story is following melodies that sound like the King's, but even though they may sound very close to the exact melody as the King's they are still wrong and lead you in the wrong direction. hope this helps :) | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, I'm just curious, about what age bracket do you fall into? Sometimes you sound so young.....20 something? Other times you sound soooooo old.......40 something? You know, even though you study through "white colored" glasses, you really do present a "mean moniter" for us to read;-)) Thank you for that! Maryann | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear L.V., Thanks for that great post on the law and the covenant. It's amazing how the Bible really does fit together the more you study it! And Wendy, just a question. You wrote: "We are to be spiritual israel. We are to be the keepers of the covenant. If we do not we cannot enter in." Where in the Bible are you basing your belief that the Christian church today is to be "spiritual Israel"? I'm also curious as to what you mean by "we cannot enter in." Are you suggesting that only those who keep the OT covenant are saved? What about grace then, what role does that play? And how do you separate the 10 commandments from the rest of the OT Covenant? Just asking, not trying to pick a fight!! Really curious what you're thinking here. Please don't go. I may not agree with many of your beliefs, but have enjoyed your participation on this forum. In His grace, Lari | ||
| Loneviking |
Well, thank you Lari! I'm glad it was helpful. Wendy, I didn't cave in to any pressure. All of my immediate family is 2500 miles away on the other side of the country! My mother died in '96, my dad is Church of Christ and was shocked to find me attending the local CofC, and my brother doesn't go to church. So, where's the pressure? As with Sherry2, it was a close study of the covenants that was the deciding factor for me. The SDA church just doesn't accept that there is a truly 'NEW' covenant quite different from the old. The SDA's view of the covenants is what seperates them from other Christians. Anyway, hang in there Wendy, we'll be patient and as friendly as we can. It's just hard not to cross swords from time to time when you are coming from such a different position than the rest of it. I can live with it if you can! | ||
| Breezy |
Patti, Exactly! Lari, We are just like Israel, circling in the wilderness. Why do you think we are still here. Because we haven't learned what God has set out to teach us. Don't you think God longs to bring His children home? The original Israel cut itself off from God, so He opened it up to the gentile. The gentile, contrary to what people believe about being different from the Jew, simply takes on the promise that God has given. To lead His people home. Until we as spiritual Israel learn what we are to learn, we cannot and will not enter into the Promised Land until we do. LV, What I said was unkind and a hasty post. I am sorry. I do hold beliefs like that but I didn't need to say it and it didn't do anything profitable. I do believe that I do not have any place on this forum having come to the conclusions I have. Susan, I was searching for truth and I found it. It is not your truth. I am sorry. I believe the grace aspect was something I needed in my relationship with God. I do not as I have said, believe that that makes void the law. That is plain in Paul's writings and no matter how everyone has tried to explain it away, it doesn't change. I have to follow the way that the Holy Spirit has opened up for me, not a way that I consider false. I am sorry. I am going to leave it at that. What on earth do I have to contribute when all my posts are simply going to be met with pure opposition. Except for Maryann's funnies, there is no point to me being on this forum. People keep dragging me back in whether it makes sense to or not. Maryann, Maybe I am here to challenge you for a reason. Maybe just to annoy you.:) I am 33 years old and have always been dichotomous. If I believed in astrology that would be explained by my Pisces birth sign. But since I don't... Anyway I'm glad someone appreciates me for something. I'm happy to e-mail you. Take care and God bless. Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm? 33 years old! That got me to laughing. That is very fitting that you fell between "young" 20, and "old" 40. You know the thing about "not HOT or COLD, but luke warm?" I guess that makes you luke warm. Hee, hee, hee. Sorry, without Max to pick on, you're it most of the time. Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
Boy Maryann, Lukewarm is something I have never been. I am a mildly redheaded, freckled, whole-heartedly Scotch-Irish die-hard pain in the ... But then again...you already knew that. :) 'saright! I don't get martyr complexes. Hey, let's compare how many times a day we check this forum. :) That should be good for a laugh!:) Wendy |
