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Palorenz
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 6:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've noticed that this group has been in the news recently....unfortunately. Here's an example from Chuck Colson's Breakpoint newsletter. Notice expecially the last part:

"For the past several days I've been talking about
religious liberty and how our American system of
government is deeply rooted in Christian principles.
I've also talked about the rise of practical atheism,
the persecution of Christians around the world, and
the importance of Christian influence in media and
law.

As I've pointed out over these days, in the past
fifty years, the secular culture has been trying to
silence believers. But Christians are now saying,
"enough is enough," as the protests on high school
campuses made clear. When told their right to pray
was forbidden, thousands have defied the orders and
openly prayed.

When TIME magazine reported on this outbreak of
Christian resistance, they called it a "not-so-quiet
revolution." In communities all across America,
citizens have rejected Court-imposed secularism.

In Arkansas, for example, football fans left the
bleachers and knelt in prayer with the athletes and
cheerleaders at mid-field. In Tennessee, students
formed a human chain around the field. And in towns
like Forest City, North Carolina, fans tuned their
portable radios to a local station to hear a pastor's
prayer before the game.

But this kind of dissent doesn't sit well with those
who'd like to silence Christians. Steven Shapiro of
the ACLU said he's "very disappointed" with what's
been going on, and he warned that his group will be
"watching what's happening very closely." Well, from
the looks of it, he'll need a lot of watchdogs. But
the sore head award goes to Barry Lynn, of Americans
United for the Separation of Church and State, who
said the protests were like a well-known obscene
gesture being made at the Court."
#################################
Now, I realize prayer in public schools may be a touchy subject even with this forum, but let me state that I'm on the side of these decent people who just want to pray in public places paid for by their own tax money. This is how I've felt even before before I left the SDA church. Especially since all I've seen is a one sided campaign against anything bearing the name Christian.

So, here were have Barry Lynn and his ACLU cousins not liking it. What makes me mad is back in the 80's, Americans United for the Separation of Church and State was almost completely controlled by SDA's. I remember Liberty magazine and the letters from this group saying how they were going to do battle against all those "fundamentalist evangelists" out there. My question is: Is this group still controlled by Adventists? If so, it seems that SDA's have taken their bigotry against other Christians to a new level where if they can't preach against them effectively, they will use legal actions to silence them. They seem to want a secular world where they don't have to worry about their dreaded "Sunday law", which colors the SDA worldview.

I for one will be watching the activities of American United more closely.

Discussion anyone?

Paul Lorenz
Max
Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2000 - 9:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DOES THE FOLLOWING PASSAGE
SUPPORT THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH
AND STATE?

15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid
plans to trap him in his words.
16 They sent their disciples to him along with
the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know
you are a man of integrity and that you teach
the way of God in accordance with the truth.
You aren't swayed by men, because you pay
no attention to who they are.
17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right
to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said,
"You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me?
19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax."
They brought him a denarius,
20 and he asked them, "Whose portrait is
this? And whose inscription?"
21 "Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to
them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and
to God what is God's."
22 When they heard this, they were amazed.
So they left him and went away.

--Matthew 22:15-22 NIV.
Palorenz
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No. It doesn't. At least to me who has been away from the Adventist pro-secular worldview for a while.

Besides, what I will say again is passages like this have been misused to further a secular agenda against all public displays of Christianity today..and agressively. I don't see the reverse happening. In this day of tolerance for alternative lifestyles, tolerance clearly doesn't extend to those of us who get labeled "fundamentalists" or evangelicals. Apparently Adventists embrace this double-mindedness.
Max
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 11:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To anyone who wishes to answer:

To the best of my knowledge, the following
states have no separation of church and state:

AFGHANISTAN
IRAC
IRAN
KUWAIT
SAUDI ARABIA
VATICAN
Several others I can't think of right now.

Two questions:

1. In your opinion, are their forms of
government superior to ours with respect to
your own personal freedom of religion?

2. In order to exercise your own personal
freedom of religion, would you prefer to live in
one of them, or here?
Palorenz
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 8:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Max,

Your sarcasm is noted and not appreciated. Please remember this is a public forum about issues, not personal attacks. But since you posed the questions I'll answer them later. But first:

You put forth very bad analogies to the point I was trying to get across. Somehow it made sense for you to lump decent people in mid-America who just want to pray in the own communities unharrassed by the likes of the ACLU with mainly Islamic dictatorships with no history of democracy. Funny.

My point is this: Do I support the Separation of Church and State? YES. Do beleive it's Constitutional? NO. The words "separation of church and state" occur no where in the US Constitution. It came from a personal letter written by Thomas Jefferson concerning state matters and secular fanatics have made it a rallying cry for a country void of any public expression of faith. As a matter of fact, I suggest you re-read the First Ammendment for yourself and see what it says about the "free excersize thereof". In my earlier post, the US Supreme Court has done what the Congress Constituionally can't do: wrongly make decisions that affect the free excersize of faith in commmunities of people who just want to pray in a public place paid for their own tax money.

An example close to me: In little Weatherford, TX a couple years ago, the ACLU goon squad came in and told the city to remove it's Nativity scene from the city hall grounds or face expensive litigation. I'll never forget the radio interview with the ACLU representative who said, and I quote, "We realize this city is a Christian community and the majority of the people here are Christian and want the Nativity scene....but, tough". Tough? I ask you, Mr. "Max", who's oppressing who?

Point is, the courts, the ACLU and Americans United have gone way too far. All in the name of "tolerance". They have in fact violated the First Ammedment and YOU apparently agree with that, sarcasm and all.

As for your questions, first of all Iraq (with a Q) has a secular government. Saddam Hussien has mudered lots of Islamic clearics. Kuwait isn't so bad. I dated a lady once years ago who had lived there and it sounded pretty nice. She was a Christian too. Rather tolerant society actually. Vatican City might actually be a pleasant place to live. Quiet, peaceful. As far as forms of government being superior, I've alway admired the Parliamentary systems of the Scandanavian nations and Japan. Rather efficient.

Paul Lorenz
Patti
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 8:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Paul.
I agree with much that you say.
I have a different perspective from some Americans in that my sweet hubby is Dutch. In Holland in education, as one example, the government pays for education and the people choose which school they wish to attend: Christian, Islamic, secular, etc. We have gone so far overboard in this worship of "separation of church and state" that the country is actually interfering with the individual practice of religion WHICH IS PROTECTED BY THE BILL OF RIGHTS. Some people do not realize that the Bill of Rights was set into place not merely to protect the rights of individuals to place LIMITS and CONTROLS on government. The very act of banning student prayer in the schools is an example of the Government overstepping its bounds and actually serving as a religious overseer.

I have to go now, but I would like to discuss this with you further.

God bless.
Patti
Max
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 9:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul,

I was surprised that you referred to my
good-faith comments as sarcasm. I certainly
meant every word in Christian love and had no
intent to be sarcastic.

I do differ with you in that I believe Christ's
command, "Render unto Caesar that which is
Caesar's and unto God that which is God's," is
a recognition that the old covenant theocracy
under the Law of Moses is gone and that the
new covenant can and does exist under
governments that separate church and state.

By the way, I thought I did type a Q in IRAQ. It's
just that the right half the Q must have been
sliced off in translation, leaving a C.

Blessings,

Max of the Cross
Maryann
Posted on Monday, October 09, 2000 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul,

You seem to up on the issues of what the term, "Separation of State" means now as opposed to what it ment even 50 years ago much less what it ment when our founding fathers were making this USA a better place to live.

You also seem to know the difference between the "Tolerance" of yesteryear when "we" were young and what the "New Tolerance" means today.

I salute you for that! The problem I have found with those two issues in the last couple years is that soooo many people, Christians and non-Christians alike, have NOT spent too much time with those issues for many reasons.

In the case of Former SDA's, JW's, etc. that have recently comeout of their cultic background, they are struggling with theological issues rather than the issues of "political correctness."

I have asked un-told zillions of people in the last while what they thought of the "New Tolerance" and most were absolutely clueless.

At one point some months ago, I was going to address this VERY important issue in a similar manner as you did yesterday by going into a sorta political thing as a lead-in and got NOWHERE I wanted to go, so dropped it. I just didn't have the time and don't type fast enough to make it feasible.

What do you think about you taking that on? I think you would really do a great job besides doing an even greater service to the many people out there that just haven't had the time or desire to look at these ALL important issues!

Upward and onward.......Maryann
Cas
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 11:44 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This discussion of the new tolerance is interesting to me. Before I started reading Josh McDowell's book called "The New Tolerance", I was not aware how insidious and dangerous this new tolerance era has become. The subtitle to the book is, How a cultural movement threatens to destroy you, your faith, and your children.

The author makes the point that Christians nowdays are lacking conviction.
It's a good book to anyone who is interested.
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cas,

Good to see you;-))

Thank you for that input on the Tolerance V New Tolerance thing. It is just mind boggling. If Paul doesn't jump on this, I think I will when I find my material on it.

IT IS A MUST KNOW SUBJECT FOR PARENTS, TEACHERS AND ALL PEOPLE INTERESTED IN WHAT OUR KIDS ARE HAVING SHOVED DOWN THEIR THROATS!!

You know, it is so sly that the TV garbage is even geared to the "new tolerance." IT IS EVERYWHERE!
Palorenz
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 8:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann and Cas,

Oh, what I could tell.........

I spent most of the last 10 years "jumping on" this issue and others, but this is a story that would take forever to tell. Why did it end in 1996: 1. Went back to school. 2. Got married and am raising a family.

A very helpful website: www.breakpoint.com . From Chuck Colson.

Paul
Palorenz
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 8:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cas and Maryann,

OOPS. Sorry. It's www.breakpoint.org. , not .com.
Maryann
Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2000 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Paul,

You said:

"Oh, what I could tell.........

I spent most of the last 10 years "jumping on" this issue and others, but this is a story that would take forever to tell."

Hmmmmm, just as I sensed, you are well versed with the subject!

Would you consider doing a new thread covering the "New Tolerance" 101???:):):) Or at least get it started?!

I have some good material on it but am sure you could cover this much easier then me. I also think it would take less work for you to post the same things as I as you have obviously studied it deeper.

:):):).....Maryann
Palorenz
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 5:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maryann,

OK, I'll start a new thread, but I only have 10 minutes. Wife has a hernia and my UT-Dallas class is a bear.

Paul
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, October 11, 2000 - 5:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paul,
I don't know if we discussed this before, but I am your neighbor to the south.
I live in that hellhole that the Democrats are calling the dirtiest city in the world! LOL!
(And they are not being mean-spirited or hateful!)
Chyna
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 10:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i did like philip yancey's take on church and state. that it has always been beneficial to the government for melding of church and state, and always not beneficial for the church itself. something like that.

chyna
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all,

Long time since I posted. Here goes . . .

I became a member of Americans United for Separation of Church & State via the SDA church.

After reading their literature and observing their courtroom attacks on Americans, I discovered two things:

1. Americans United is not against separation of church and state. They ARE in favor of no expression of religious views (especially Christian) in public places. According to AU those expressions should be in private places.

2. Expression of religious views, prayer, etc. in public places, including schools, as long as they are not state sponsored (led by teachers, administrators, etc.) does NOT make a church and state union.

Americans United, like the ACLU, although good in their STATED agenda, in their practice they are simply anti-Christian in a great majority of their actions.

I no longer endorse Americans United. I'd rather be free to express my beliefs regardless of where I am at, but never at the expense of others' right to express their views as well.

Steve
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Saturday, November 09, 2002 - 9:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thought I'd join in. I live in a community of five ajoining small towns with a total population of these five towns around 50,000. The next town over to me someone put a big cross up and every night all year long at dusk a big super bright light shines on it. It had been there for many years and no one in our area ever complained. Someone in the community did the light thing each night voluntarilly. Then the ACLU lawyer in a town around 15 miles from here checked the land ownership that the cross was on. Turned out the cross was on public land so under threat of lawsuit against the county down came the cross. But, only for a day or so as nice lady that lives very close to where the cross was offered to have it placed on her property. It really did turn out for the better though as now the cross can be seen while traveling past that area on the freeway and can be seen by the entire community. My point here is that those ACLU and AU just bite off their noses to spite their own faces. It has gotten way out of hand, this seperation of church and state idea. I think the SDA's should hide their faces in shame about their twofaceness over it. I mean ADRA takes government money, the SDA colleges take the GI bill money as well as give out the Pell grants and other tax money, and goodness, the universities take governmant grants for research, etc. My guess is that the SDA hospitals accept Medi-care and Medi-caid to pay the patients bills and we know that is money earned by hard working Americans going into a SDA institution. I think the SDA church wants what it can get but doesn't want any other Chrisian organization to get any. Doesn't seem too Chritian to me, and I think I'm right arout that!
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep. And SDA hospitals kill humans by sucking them out of their mother's wombs. Please understand, I'm not one of those hate-filled anti-abortionists. I truly feel compassion for those that choose that route. But in many Catholic and Protestant hospitals in the country, you could not get an abortion unless you were in the throes of death.

At many SDA hospitals, it's given on demand.

How's that for a "health message?"
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Sunday, November 10, 2002 - 10:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are you sure about this? I have been told by several SDA's that SDA owned and operated hospitlso not do abortions under any circumstance.I am wondering if this can be found out for sure one way or the other. I think the SDA church as a body has very little respect for the body, particurally in its earliest and last stages of life, when people are rather non-productive. My opinion is they have this disregard for human life because they have such a pitiful understanding of what happens to the saved person with a righteous spirit after his/her death. When God reathed into Adam and he became a living soul, well, that settles it for me. The SDA refuses to consider that the Holy Spirit actually dwells within us, in our hearts, our consciousnesses. And, to deny that the communion wine IS the blood of Jesus and to deny that the communion wafer IS the body of Jesus only adds further to the belief that people are worthess. That's why they push their "health message" so fervently-it's all they get-the here and now. Sad.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Monday, November 11, 2002 - 1:22 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know they do abortions under at least some circumstances. Generally they are listed as medical emergencies, sometimes called D&C's, sometimes other "emergency-type" names. I can't speak first-hand regarding other abortions. I've heard both that Adventist hospitals do not do voluntary abortions and that they most certainly do albeit hidden under acceptable names. And I've heard these reports from credible people on the inside.

I just want to make a comment about the body and blood of Jesus and the communion elements. Most Christians do not believe that the bread is literally the body of Christ or that the wine is literally his blood. They believe that it is a symbol of the body and blood of Christ, the symbols of the new covenant Jesus put in place at his death and resurrection.

Jesus said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me," and "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." (1 Cor. 11:24-5) Paul added, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes." (1 Cor. 11:26)

Our taking communion is a statement of our belief in the miracle of Jesus' humanity, death, and resurrection, of his taking our sin and our flesh and carrying our guilt to the cross--while remaining completely innocent of sin Himself. Since the Holy Spirit indwells us, we have the literal living presence of God in us when we accept Jesus. We don't need his physical flesh and blood; we have his eternal Spirit making us alive.

I understand that many people do believe the bread and wine transubstantiate in the body into Christ's body and blood. That belief, however, is not taught in scripture. Rather, communion is something we do "in remembrance" rather than to take on Christ. Christ fills us eternally when we accept him and our own new birth, not temporarily and irregularly when we take communion.

Praise God for eternal security!

Colleen
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 8:52 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have on Fox News right now and they are talking about the President's Faith Based Social Services innitative. Apparenly i has been approved that the Faith organization can discriminate in hiring persons whose life stules are in conflict with that of their organization. It's going to be interesting to observe the reactions to this by different groups, schas American's United, the ACLU, the SDA's, and even a lot of Democrates.
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 3:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Again recently Berry Lind (I think that is his name, the head dude of United for Seperation of Church and State) was on the news. I just cannot recall right now what his complaint was but I do remember wondering if there really are any Adventists that still rally behind that organization. It seems to me that Americans United and the ACLU might as well join together, that are both requally wacked out organizations.
Steve (Steve)
Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,

Yes, there are MANY SDAs that rally behind that organization. I was introduced to it from the pulpit of the Albuquerque Cental Seventh-day Adventist Church.

Barry Lynn claims to be a minister. He is ordained, by who or what, I don't know. He was with some mainline denomination.

He has never effectively stood up FOR Christians as effectively as he consistently OPPOSES Christians and the freedom to practice their religious beliefs.

He's against public displays of crosses, Nativity scenes at Christmas-time.

The title of his organizaiton is an untrue statement: Americans United for the Separation of Church and State.

Very few Americans are actually "united" for that purpose. The ACLU and Americans United present a dishonest portrayal to the American public.

Most people know that separation of church and state literally means the Federal Government mandating the observance of one specific religious persuasion over others, and demanding the citizens to participate in that one mandated religion.

The reason SDAs jump on the bandwagon on this one, is their misplaced fear that the U.S. Goverment will, hand-in-hand with Protestant churches, mandate a Sunday Law.

Actually, the Government would have to mandate a "No Worship on Saturday" Law. That's a different twist.

And of course, Americans United and their devout SDA followers would HAVE to back up that law if they are to be consistent.

But then, they have been consistently inconsistent.

Steve
Susan_2 (Susan_2)
Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The first right in the Bill of Rights is Freedom of Religion. It says the government shall make no laws respecting the institution of religion. This to me says nothing about being anti-school vouchers, or not putting a nativity scene in the town square. In fact, finilly the SDA's are coming clean with how much taxpayers money they really do get for their various projects. In the latest issue of the Review it mentions that ADRA gets 75% of its funding from the government. My family member read that and was just appalled! I wasn't surprised because I keep up with that stuff from all these former groups but I think the folks who just get their information from the SDA organization will be surprised.
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady

Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2004
Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

On an SDA web site is an article about how the administrators cheated the Shady Grove SDA Hospital in Maryland out of all kinds of money. Go to a search engine and type in Shady Grove. You will find it. I think any of you can figure out how to get on the rest of the web site. I was able to.
They work their therapists 7 days a week. Physical, occupational and speech therapies bring in lots of Medicare money. As an SDA, when I lived in that area, I applied for a job with the
Shady Grove Hospital. I would have had to work on Saturday, as an SDA, if a substitute could not be found. I did not get the job, for which I am thankful. So, I know personally they get Medicare money.
When my Mom was sick, before she died, she was at LLU Hospital. Part of her bill was paid by Medicare.
And if I remember EGW correctly, she told SDAs not to take government money or something to that effect. How well the SDA church listens to her!!!!
Diana

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