| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 8:46 pm: |     |
Hi Bruce,
Come on in, the water's fine! |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 8:59 pm: | |
I have been following this discussion on faith and
works, here is my thought on this.
We are saved when the Holy Spirit indwells us or
as some would say we are sealed (Eph 1:13-14) or
were Born Again etc. etc. Period........
It is The Holy Spirit or God or Jesus that dwells
in us and gives us faith (Eph 2:8). Now I myself
have faith in and of myself but it is insufficent,
I need Gods gift of faith or his faith.
Now since it is Christ in me (Col 1;27), and it is
christ that saves me with his spirit then it is
Christ in me that does the Works, Remember Jesus
said that it was the father in him that did all
the works and not He himself because He always did
what the father told him (John 14:10). Now then
if I do not Change or show works then it is I
myself that stop Jesus from doing his work in my
Life, for does not Jesus want to Change me???? I
can quench the Holy Spirit by doing the works
myself and not by the Spirit of God for it is the
Spirit of God that does the works.
I am not saying that we are saved by the works
because we cannot do good works, we are saved by
the indwelling Holy Spirit and it is God's Spirit
that does His good works in us. And yes we can
prevent Jesus from doing His work in us by trying
to do the works ourselves, and I do not mean works
for salvation but works for Jesus in our lives.
Bruce HeinricH |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:04 pm: | |
Agreed Bruce,
I especially liked this thought of yours: ^^If I do
not change or show works then it is I myself
that stop Jesus from doing his work in my
Life.^^
I hadn't really thought of salvation in quite that
way before.
Blessings! |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:08 pm: | |
I am not saying that we are saved by the works
because we cannot do good works, we are saved by
the indwelling Holy Spirit and it is God's Spirit
that does His good works in us.
I have to disagree with you a bit, here, Bruce. I hope you won't take it personally.
We are NOT saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit or anything else in us; this is Roman Catholic (and SDA) theology. We are saved by the life and death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE.
(Good to see you back, btw!) J |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:12 pm: | |
Max
You are right all our works are like filthy rags.
Amen.
I guess the real question you have to ask those
Adventist who say you are saved by works is who's
works are you talking about our filthy rags works
or Christ in Me the Hope of Glory.
Bruce Heinrich
BH |
Dan
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:13 pm: | |
PATTI WROTE: ìYou know, Dan, I have noticed huge irony in speaking with SDAs and others who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ is our full and complete salvation. They tout the necessity of works, and yet they have no compunctions of stretching the truth beyond recognition or resorting to ad hominem tactics to try and prove their points. All this at the same time of proclaiming that their "faith works in love." What is wrong with this picture?î
Yes, I certainly know what you mean Patti. Itís very sad ñ and sometimes disheartening ñ to try to discuss the Gospel with Adventists (both those in and those outside the formal Church). As soon as you start quoting Jesusí words to the effect that salvation is by faith alone, their anger becomes palpable. Not all, of course, but most, in my experience ñ even in my own family.
And the more you focus in on Jesusí words, the angrier they become. Amazing, isnít it, when all you are doing is setting out the plan of salvation as Jesus revealed it! Instead, they want to go to the ends of the Bible ñ as far away from the Gospels as they can get ñ and try to find someone who said something to indicate that the works of man are somehow a necessary part of being saved. Not the Christian life ñ but being eligible for salvation.
And you can always tell how angry the people you are discussing the Gospel with are getting by the number of times the ìI love you brotherî and ìGod bless youî remarks are coming out. The angrier they get, the more they pronounce blessings upon you and tell you how much they love you ñ all through gritted teeth, of course. Human experience tells us that those who are excessively expressing one emotion may well be trying to mask another.
You know, the way some of these people use their ìGod bless you,î sometimes it is almost like a curse word. And for some of them it is even their ìblank youî expression when they want it to be. I think I was the recipient of such ìblank youî expression just awhile ago here. This time it was a ìBlessings.î But I do not think the fellow in question was feeling any desire whatsoever that I be receiving any sort of blessings.
But didnít Jesus advise us that this is what we could expect? But it still hurts, particularly when it is with loved ones. I have in fact been hurt by the remarks of a couple people on this forum, but I shouldnít be ñ since I have experienced this enough already. I think it is because I am new to this forum and havenít really gotten to know anybody well yet; therefore, I am more sensitive than I would be normally to people expressing sarcastic and unkind attitudes toward me.
As far as the dishonesty goes, I share your feelings. It never ceases to amaze me when people will use dishonesty and slick tactics even when discussing Christ and His Gospel. I donít know, I just donít understand that kind of mindset.
To be honest with you, Patti, I am not sure how much longer I am going to stay around here. As soon as the nastiness gets much worse I am just going to shake the dust off my shoes and leave. I tell you, there seems to be more support for the Gospel these days at places like aToday than there is here. Strange. You wouldnít think it would be that way, would you? Where are all the people who left the Church because they found the Gospel?
Dan |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:16 pm: | |
I dont mean that it is Christ in me that makes me
do good work. It is Christ Himself that does the
work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:16 pm: | |
I know of no place in Scripture that even
remotely suggests that true believers are
saved by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. And I
don't read Bruce as saying that either. Bruce?
Blessings to all! |
Larimobley
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:19 pm: | |
Interesting discussion--
All I would add to what Patti has written is that we are saved by our FAITH IN "the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE."
To leave out the faith on our part would imply that everyone is saved, even those who don't have faith in Jesus. Bruce is also right, because when we have faith in Jesus, the indwelling Holy Spirit--a result of our faith--begins to change our lives. It's work on His part, not ours. And it's the RESULT OF our salvation, not the REQUIREMENT FOR our salvation.
Would anyone agree, then, that the only "work" required for salvation is our "faith"?
In His grace,
Lari |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:21 pm: | |
I know what you mean, Bruce.
Don't get angry, please.
But that is Roman Catholic theology.
The RCC teaches that salvation is a continuous process worked out in the life of the believer; the Reformers said that we are saved only by the work of Another, that justification was based upon being declared righteous as opposed to the RCC teaching of actually being made rightoeus.
The work of salvation is a finished and perfect work: It is based upon the perfect righteousness of Christ, his fulfillment of the law on our behalf. Christ's work is finished. I.e, "it is finished". We can add nothing of value to His perfect work. All we are asked is to believe in Him. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:22 pm: | |
No problem with that at all, Lari. Thanks for the
insight. And bless you and all your family too! |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:29 pm: | |
I would hope that we could keep the definitive
finality of Scripture the focus, and not
Reformation issues or issues of Roman
Catholic theology. Those are very complex. For
example, we haven't yet dealt with the fact that
the RCC DEFINES the word "salvation"
differently from the way many others do.
Before you can condemn their ideas, you have
to UNDERSTAND them.
Scripture alone! |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:40 pm: | |
Patti
---We are NOT saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit
or anything else in us; this is Roman Catholic
(and SDA) theology. We are saved by the life and
death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE.---
Can you show me this from the Bible Patti?
By the way SDA's and Catholics would not say you
are saved by the Holy Spirit I know because I was
an SDA.
Here is what my Bible says
Romans 5:9,10 says we shall be saved from wrath
THROUGH HIM, and we are saved by HIS LIFE.
That means his life in us look at
Romans 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if
indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. NOW IF
ANYONE DOES NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST, HE IS
NOT HIS.
So only those who have the Spirit of God or the
indwelling Holy Spirit are His (Eph 1:13,14).
John 17:9
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but
for those whom you have given me, for they are
yours.
So those who are his are those who have the
indwelling Holy Spirit these are the ones the
father hase given to Jesus Christ.
Read John 17:10-19
It is true that Christ died for the world but only
those who accept the Gospel and recieve the Holy
Spirit will be saved.
Bruce Heinrich
BH
BH |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 9:56 pm: | |
Patti
----But that is Roman Catholic theology.
The RCC teaches that salvation is a continuous
process worked out in the life of the believer;
the Reformers said that we are saved only by the
work of Another, that justification was based upon
being declared righteous as opposed to the RCC
teaching of actually being made rightoeus. ----
I am talking about Christ righteousness being
accounted to me when I accept the Gospel (1 Cor
15:1-6) when I accept this Gospel I recieve the
Holy Spirit
Eph 1:13-14 In Him you also trusted, after you
heard the word of truth, the gospel of your
salvation; in whom also having believed, you were
sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the
GUARANTEE of our inheritance until the redemption
of the purchased possession, to the praise of his
glory.
So the rightiousness is Christ in me or the Holy
Spirit with its perfect rightiouness. So If I do
not have the Holy Spirit I do not have Christ
Righjtiouness. So my rightiouness is nothing but
filthy rags and not myself.
Bruce He |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 10:16 pm: | |
Patti here are some texts about the Holy spirit in
you.
1 Cor 6:19 19 Or do you not know that your body is
the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom
you have from God, and you are not your own?
1 Cor 3:16 16 Do you not know that you are the
temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in
you?
Col 1:27 27 To them God willed to make known what
are the riches of the glory of this mystery among
the Gentiles: which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of
glory.
ROM 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the
Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you.
Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ,
he is not His.
JOHN 16: 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of
truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
for He will not speak on His own authority, but
whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell
you things to come.
ACTS 7:48-51 48 "However, the Most High does not
dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet
says:
49 `Heaven is My throne, And earth is My
footstool. What house will you build for Me? says
the LORD, Or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?'
51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart
and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as
your fathers did, so do you.
BRUCE H |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 12:39 am: | |
I'm convinced that this discussion this evening is the result of people reacting to each other without really knowing each other.
First, I know for sure that the person whom I think Dan was referring to above is NOT an Adventist, is NOT a legalist, and is NOT angry. Further, he is NOT dishonest or using trickery. I have watched this person grow in the love and grace of Jesus for over a year. I also know that he does NOT believe sanctification is part of a salvation requirement.
Second, I am sure that Patti is not defending lawlessness or antinomianism. She is absolutely right in proclaiming salvation by faith in Christ alone.
Paul and Peter had serious disagreements, and they were both apostles speaking for God. Paul couldn't deal with John Mark, so Paul took Silas on his subsequent missionary trip, and Barnabas took John Mark under his wing. God's chosen people do not always see things exactly the same, and those differences do not mean that one is necessarily wrong and the other right.
It's important to remember that we all come from really different experiences. The fact that we were all Adventists does not make our experiences the same.
For some of us (I speak for myself) the miracle of discovering we are saved by grace suddenly gives us the freedom to live with structure and certainty. The miracle of learning that God is sovereign and the Bible is infallible means that many of us rejoice in the discovery that the Holy Spirit not only seals us but mediates the love and discipline of Jesus in our lives. For some of us, grace means we live with new restraint and accountability. We are free to suspend our own freedoms when we accept Jesus. The Holy Spirit gives us a new freedom which has nothing to do with behavior. It is a freedom which gives us the security to be submissive and to be servants without fear of being used or manipulated.
For others of us (and again, paradoxical as it may sound, I am still speaking for myself) the miracle of salvation frees us from our rigidity and meticulous perfectionism and allows us to revel in the fact that our salvation has nothing to do with us!!! For some of us, salvation gives us a new identity which no one's expectations can ever threaten again.
Jesus is the reason we can experience these reactions. He has saved us completely, even without any changes in behavior! It is absolutely a done deal. We are safe in Jesus!
At the same time, Jesus confirms our salvation by sealing us with the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit witnesses to us about Jesus, about his reality and his love and his truth. The Holy Spirit also gives us God's power: through the Holy Spirit we experience the gifts of the Spirit and the fruits of the Spirit. These things are absolute promises.
The fact that some of us don't experience these things in the same way as others of us does not mean that some of us are truly saved and others are not. As our pastor said last week, some Christians haven't begun to drink from the stream flowing from God inside them, and they are still thirsty.
Further, we all have such different traumas and emotional scars that we don't experience the Holy Spirit in the same ways. God heals each of us in very different ways. He does not abandon us to our inherited emotional rubble when he saves us; he gently offers healing, first in one manageable area, then in another. And HE is the one that oversees this gradual healing, and HE is the one that makes each step manageable!
Once we are saved, we do not direct our own lives. Our sovereign God begins to unfold his purposes for us. We can make decisions, yes; we can even choose to indulge our weaknesses and old habits. But these weak choices do not remove us from salvation. We are saved and 100% secure in Jesus!
I know that Calvinism places a heavy emphasis on the historic, objective reality of salvation through the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. That is absolutely as it should be! (As a matter of fact, while I don't consider myself a hyper Calvinist, I do tend to lean more toward Calvinism than Arminianism!)
I have some disagreement with pure Calvinism, however, because as I understand it, Calvinism places a much greater emphasis on the objective work of salvation than it does on the reality of living as a saved person with the Holy Spirit. Some Calvinists discount personal "feelings" or "intuitions" that some believers experience and attribute to the Holy Spirit.
The act of salvation ends at the cross and resurrection of Christ. But our walk with Christ doesn't end the moment we receive our salvation. That is only the beginning! But what comes after is NOT part of being saved. As far as salvation is concerned, that issue is absolutely settled when we accept Jesus' atoning work for us. Period.
But yes, we will experience him in our lives. We may not have huge miracles of behavior right away. But we will have wisdom and assurance as we trust him to give it to us. "We have the mind of Christ," 1 Cor. 2:16 tells us. We will begin to grow and change. And we will be aware of many of these changes. I know absolutely that the Holy Spirit has given me "today". I used to live with the past and in anxious preparation for whatever unknown the future might bring. I was a walking package of existential angst.
Jesus has given me peace and rest. Even though my life is more frantic in pace and in demands than it has ever been before, I live in a rest and a peace that is new to me. I actually have the present now, not just the past and the future.
I know other people who, within the past 18 months, have found Christ after varying experiences with Adventism. These people are praising God for the tangible changes they are experiencing: mended marriages, the ability to love others, courage replacing shyness enabling witnessing for Christ, peace replacing fear in the face of malicious family reactions, the discovery of joy, etc.
Jesus is all; he is our salvation, he is our courage; he is our discipline; he is our wisdom; he is our mediator; he is our Lover; he is our courage. Jesus is everything! And we can praise him for everything.
Paul said in Romans that the same spirit that raised Christ from the dead would also "quicken our mortal flesh". That's MORTAL flesh. That means now, as we experience coming alive spiritually, even while we're in our still-sinful flesh and blood the Holy Spirit will be at work bringing us more and more to life in him. We are not promised sinlessness; we are still in our sinful bodies!
But we are promised life in our mortal flesh. Jesus does not abandon us to our weakest impulses. He asks us to drink from the stream that is Him.
I know for certain that our website is monitored, at least occasionally, by conference officials. I pray that all of us here will ask God to help us speak for HIM. I ask him to help us see each other through His eyes. I ask for His compassion to be present among us.
We are a sort-of family, bound together by a common, highly dysfunctional background: we have been part of a cult. We all need to repent of our involvement in an organization that disseminated lies instead of truth. We all need to allow each other to grow. We all need to pray for each other. We must not assume things about each other that we don't know for sure. And we must ask Jesus to help us build each other up.
We will not always agree on doctrinal fine points. Even more common, we may actually agree on doctrines but express them in ways determined by our own experiences. Our expressions may be badly misunderstood. I believe many on this website on both ends of the discussion pendulum have felt this judgment and misunderstanding.
But I believe that we all agree on one thing: Jesus is our Savior, and Jesus is everything.
I'm praying for us all, and I'm praying that this website will be a place where former Adventists can come and find support and ask questions. I also pray that we who post will be true witnesses for Christ to the thousands who lurk and judge us by our conversations. We all must submit to each other in love. We all must stand firmly for truth, and we all must be firmly committed to love each other for God.
With prayers and gratitude to God for each of you,
Colleen |
Maryann
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 12:41 am: | |
Hi Dan,
I invited you to check out something a few days ago. I'm anxious to hear what you can up with. Here it is again:
Take a look at these familiar verses.
John 3:16-18 NIV:
"For God so loved the world that he
gave his one and only Son, that whoever
believes in him shall not perish but have
eternal life. For God did not send his Son into
the world to condemn the world, but to save
the world through him. Whoever believes in
him is not condemned, but whoever does not
believe stands condemned already because
he has not believed in the name of God's one
and only Son."
AND
John 5:24 (NASB):
"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life."
To me, this is the gospel! Believe (and receive) = salvation. There are NO hinges on works, deeds or any other thing. There is nothing that we have to do or can do to maintain our salvation!! It is best described by saying, "the judgement of the righteous is behind them and the judgement of the wicked is in front of them!"
You asked a great question when you asked Max:
"I still canít find your answer to my original question of 'What are the consequences if one DOES NOT let his or her good deeds be seen?'"
Here is where I would like you to take a bit of time and study 1 Cor. 9:24-27 (NASB):
24..."Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25...And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath (crown NIV), but we an imperishable. 26...Therefore I run in such a way, as not with out aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27...but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified."
Now it is obvious that Paul is speaking to Christians. It is obvious that he is also using himself in the illustration.
Remembering back to the John 3 and 5, it is very clear that the judgement is BEHIND us. Our salvation is hinged on only one thing and that is BELIEVE.
So what is Paul talking about? If you will do a study on the "crowns of exultation, righteousness, life and glory" you will receive a blessing like you wouldn't believe.
Anyway, I truly believe your answer is found in that study.
I'm really interested in your conclusion;-))
If you want to talk off the air, you can e-write me gogold@quixnet.net "
:)I love you brother:)
;))God bless you;)))
;-)))Blessings;-)))
:);)Maryann:-);-)) |
Maryann
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 1:27 am: | |
Hi Colleen the Theo and counsellor:),
You stated:
"The act of salvation ends at the cross and resurrection of Christ. But our walk with Christ doesn't end the moment we receive our salvation. That is only the beginning! But what comes after is NOT part of being saved. As far as salvation is concerned, that issue is absolutely settled when we accept Jesus' atoning work for us. Period."
What a beautiful way to present that! Thank you, thank you, thank you!
Our salvation doesn't go on and on and on! It is finished! It was finished 2000 years ago! Our walk starts when we believe and receive! That is the beauty of salvation I have TRIED to express! You did it so well! So clear! Sooooooo simple;-)
Oops, that reminds me of a song:
I am weak , but Thou art strong, Jesus keep me from all wrong; I'll be satified as long, As I walk let me walk close to Thee.
Through this world of toils and snares, If I falter, Lord, who cares? Who with me my burden shares? None but Thee, dear Lord, non but Thee.
When my feeble life is o'er, Time for me will be no more; Gently, safely o'er, To Thy kingdom shore, to thy shore.
Chorus
Just a closer walk with Thee, Grant it, Jesus, is my plea; Daily walking close to Thee, Let it be, dear Lord, let it be.
I plan to post your above statement and the song often on this forum.
Thank you again for you beautiful, God guided spirit that allows the light to shine through you to the whole web world.
Keep on walking, your salvation IS FINISHED!
Praise God
;)Joyful Blessings:)
Maryann |
Maryann
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 1:58 am: | |
Hi All,
As stated by Colleentinker:
"The act of salvation ends at the cross and resurrection of Christ. But our walk with Christ doesn't end the moment we receive our salvation. That is only the beginning! But what comes after is NOT part of being saved. As far as salvation is concerned, that issue is absolutely settled when we accept Jesus' atoning work for us. Period."
In our glee of finding an all sufficient Savior who purchased every humans salvation COMPLETELY 2000 years ago, let us NOT for get the walk that is the joy of our new life!
When a couple gets married, they don't stand at the alter for 50 years! They walk together and get to know each other. In a "healthy" marriage, what do people do? They honor each other, they attempt to never dis-please each other. Not to get married but BECAUSE THEY ARE MARRIED!!
Hmmmm, maybe Christ uses the marriage/bride/groom stories because our little human pea brains can comprehend that?
As to the thread titles. I really think the Lord leads in the titles! The titles may not be perfect for me, but they are perfect for someone! That "odd ball" thread title might just be the title that peaked their interest into being exposed to the Grace of God and the FREE salvation offered to each and every person on the earth that truly believes in Him.
And the bulk of the post's DO point to Christ;-)
Maryann |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 4:55 am: | |
God Bless you Colleen! The Lord used you mightily tonight, no doubt about it. Whew! :::brushing wrinkles off of my forehead hoping all will be well now:::: :)
Jesus loves me this I know....
For the Bible tells me so...
Goodnight and God Bless,
Denise ::still singing::: |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 8:51 am: | |
Good morning Bruce!
I've got to quit this addictive machine or I'll be
late for church.
Loved the texts you posted last night about the
Holy Spirit being within true believers. And I
believe they are a much needed addition to
the discussions on this web site lately.
1 Cor 6:19 19 Or do you not know that your
body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in
you, whom you have from God, and you are
not your own?
1 Cor 3:16 16 Do you not know that you are
the temple of God and that the Spirit of God
dwells in you?
Col 1:27 27 To them God willed to make
known what are the riches of the glory of this
mystery among the Gentiles: which is CHRIST
IN YOU, the hope of glory.
ROM 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in
the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in
you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of
Christ, he is not His.
JOHN 16: 13 "However, when He, the Spirit of
truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;
for He will not speak on His own authority, but
whatever He hears He will speak; and He will
tell you things to come.
ACTS 7:48-51 48 "However, the Most High
does not dwell in temples made with hands,
as the prophet says:
49 `Heaven is My throne, And earth is My
footstool. What house will you build for Me?
says the LORD, Or what is the place of My
rest?
50 Has My hand not made all these things?'
51 "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in
heart and ears! You always resist the Holy
Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
READ THESE TEXTS, EVERYBODY! I'D LIKE
TO HEAR YOUR COMMENTS!
Be of good cheer!
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 8:57 am: | |
Hi Denise,
You quoted,
Jesus loves me this I know....
For the Bible tells me so...
The most important, in my opinion, theologian
of the 20th century, Karl Barth, said once that
that little rhyme was the most important
theological truth he had ever arrived at in all of
his lifetime study of Scripture.
Be of good cheer! |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 9:01 am: | |
Colleen, Your kind spirit always shines through.
I'm being pulled away from my computer this morning by my family...
But it is a gorgeous day of Sun!! And we're heading up to Timberline Lodge at Mt. Hood; so I guess it will be good for me to to get some fresh mountain air today! Although I love just sitting and reading in the lodge by the fire...(I will take my books!) As of yesterday, they had 10 inches of new snow there at Timberline!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Bruceh
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 12:04 pm: | |
PATTI
----We are NOT saved by the indwelling Holy Spirit
or anything else in us; this is Roman Catholic
(and SDA) theology. We are saved by the life and
death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE.----
I can see what you are saying Patti and I know
your concern being an Adventist.
I do not believe that we are saved by the Life and
death and resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE. We
are saved when we ACCEPT the life and death and
resurrection of Jesus Christ ALONE for our
salvation.
I see it like this when we are baptized this
symbolizes my death to the Law or my own salvation
I realize that I need Jesus Christ and what he did
to save me so I die. When I am raised from the
water this symbolizes the Life that Jesus put in
me or his Holy Spirit and I am saved at this time,
the Bible says that we die and are raised with
Him. Now if we die we need life and it is Jesus
life or His Spirit that gives us life, if we
reject this then we stay under the water and die.
It says in the Bible that Jesus will never leave
me so his Holy Spirit will never leave or foresake
me. That means that I am saved no matter what
happens to me. I am secure in Christ I have a
guarentee (Eph 1:13-14).
So when I accept Jesus Life death and reserection
right at that instance he gives me His Spirit
which will never leave me. I am safe John
10:27-30. I do not believe that Adventist or
Catholics would say this.
So yes you are right we are saved by the Life
Death and resuretion of Jesus Christ, but when and
only when we accept it, this is when we die we
accept that we cannot do it. And when we do
accept it He gives us life, the Holy Spirit of
Promise that will guide us into all truth and
which will empower us, for this is Eternal Life,
Christ in us, it is his Spirit and it alone which
gives us life and victory. Those who do not have
the Spirit of Christ) are not his (Rom 8:9) and
they are not saved by the Life death and
reserection of Jesus Christ.
So let me clairify when we accept the free gift
we
are saved and we recieve the Holy Spirit, you
cannot be saved without it for if you accept the
Life and death and resurection of Jesus and yet
reject his Spirit then you reject him.
Bruce Heinrich
Bh
Bh
Bh
Bruce Hei |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, October 22, 2000 - 6:56 pm: | |
Bruce, what do you mean when you say,
^^If you accept the life and death and
resurection of Jesus and yet reject his Spirit,
then you reject him"?
Do you mean that it's possible to truly accept
Jesus and also truly reject his Spirit?
Or do you mean that rejection of his Spirit
means that the grace-claimer never truly
accepted Jesus in the first place?
Blessings to you! |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 3:39 am: | |
Bruce, Patti, Lari, Colleen, Maryann, Denise,
Cindy, Dan, Richard, Bill, Delstar, ... , and any I
may have missed, God bless you all! It's been
sheer delight trading Scriptures with you!
Max of the Cross |
|
