| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Dale wrote: We take too much credit, or blame, (we deserve NONE) when others accept or don't accept our Lord Jesus Christ based on "our witness". This is the work of the Holy Spirit! Patti: BTW, AMEN! | ||
| Dan |
Excellent posts Patti and Dale! As Patti pointed out, our witness is to direct attention to Christ - not to our own lives - which will always remain saturated with selfishness (sin). Dale wrote: "We take too much credit, or blame, (we deserve NONE) when others accept or don't accept our Lord Jesus Christ based on "our witness". This is the work of the Holy Spirit!" I'm glad you pointed this out, Dale. It is the Holy Spirit's work to convict the heart, not ours. When we were Adventists we were taught that it was our role to convert others, and that others could actually end up lost if we did not get to them in time with "the Truth." I used to hear this preached all the time. In reality, there is nothing that one person can do that can cause another person to be saved, and there is nothing one person can do that will cause another person to be lost. What an unfair God we would have if our salvation could be determined by the actions (or inactions) of another person. The truth of the matter is that the Holy Spirit works in the heart of each man as God draws us all to Himself. If we do not resist, He will lead us into all the "understanding" we need. Therefore, our salvation is never dependent upon the "witness" or "attractivenes" of others. And thank goodness for that, or else I never would have found Christ. Dan | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Dan!  And welcome to FAF! And thank you for your Gospel-centered words. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, To make sure I'm understood, I have NEVER said "MY" works will get me an iota of salvation. ONLY CHRIST'S WORK CAN DO, DID DO, THAT!!! I NEVER said that any "fruits of the Spirit" can gain ANYONE elses salvation!!!!! In my world....I don't know about any of your worlds, walking up and talking about Jesus to people is NOT and I mean NOT the way to witness. Trust me I know!!!!! For someone like me that was the foulest talking, nastiest and I mean, NASTIEST joke telling person on the face of the earth, AND CHANGED! people want to know why!!!!! At that point, I have an OPEN door to share the gospel. Praise God that He CHANGES lives! Now, I'm very sorry for those that have had only dramatic theology changes that CAN'T understand or put their feet in the shoes of us that have had DRAMATIC changes in our lives. I have found that the HARDENED un-believer has MUCH more understanding for one who falls flat on their face than the HARDENED SDA or former SDA mindset!!! When I fall flat on my face, (AND I DO!) I have the opportunity to share the GRACE OF GOD. Do you understand?!! That is a springboard to SHARE THE GRACE OF GOD! That HARDENED un-believer is generally very fast to extend his had to me and say hmmmm, IF GOD IS LIKE THAT, I WANT TO KNOW MORE ABOUT HIM!! The HARDENED SDA mindset is more apt to stomp me! And I don't mind as it gives me more of an opportunity to share the GRACE OF GOD! All this MENT FREINDY and from the bottom of my heart! GOD CHANGED AND IS STILL CHANGING MY LIFE....................Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
And another thing! There was mention that this view puts one BACK under LEGALISM. MY EYE!! I have never know the freedom that I have now. I don't have to worry about my actions getting me to or keeping me out of heaven! Without that worry I AM FREE. I AM FREE to witness through actions or words as the HOLY SPIRIT guides me! Do you have the picture? THIS IS FREEDOM!:-)) WITH FREEDOM TO FOLLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT..........Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Everyone, It has been a long time since I've felt energized enough to post...I have enjoyed catching up in reading FAF and all the many new participants' views. I'd love to sit and visit with you all for hours, face to face! This 'poll' has brought me out of the woodwork to comment! My thoughts, heretical though they may be to some, are these: 1. Has 'salvation' changed your life? Yes, it has...but so gradually; and probably not in ways very visible to others. I've always been perceived as a friendly, nice, outwardly 'moral' person; so major lifestyle changes have not been a big thing. The changes have been in my attitudes and perspectives. I believe that I received complete salvation when I accepted and believed in Christ at age nineteen... But He was not an important part of my life much until my forties! I am now 48 and for the last eight years Jesus has assumed more and more the rightful place in my life--at the Center of my life! I love what you wrote once, Colleen; Jesus as our identity! But....my changed life is not the proof of the actuality of my possessing salvation! Salvation was given me freely when I believed in Jesus! I believed in Christ's accomplished work on my behalf, in this FREE gift and know it was NOT 'conditional' on how I then lived. If conditional, it would not be a GIFT! 2. Have you seen salvation change other lives? Absolutely, Many miraculous and wonderful "improvements" in lifestyle and moral areas. And yet!!...Since I see salvation as such an ABSOLUTELY FREE GIFT OF UNMERITED GRACE!, I honestly feel there are many who definitely have salvation and yet do not exhibit the "changed" life. In some instances their lifestyle may appear WORSE! But we do not see as God sees... There may be struggles in individuals that we have no idea of... And, in God's sovereignity, I truely think He often uses these "unchanged" believers to open our eyes to the real sins of our own hearts...greed, bitterness, pride, and arrogance! Of course, God knows the heartache some of these "major" type sins cause. He disciplines all of us in many ways. My "minor" sins of anger, greed, bitterness, and pride are just as devastating to my PEACE as an alcoholic or prostitutes' actions are to their peace. Sin is so much more than externals; it is adultery of the heart. Anything that takes the place of the supremacy of God in our thoughts and hearts... I feel this stress on 'changed lives' may subtly give the impression that Christians should actually verify their salvation by victorious living. If one is really saved, one will prove it be defeating the enemy (with God's help, of course) and winning! As Patti noted (hi Patti!), about the Pharisee, he thanked GOD that he was not like the others. I love that story also! All we can say always is "God, be merciful, to me a sinner!" Always acknowledge our sinfulness and throw ourselves on the Mercy Seat of Christ's shed blood for us!! The changed life emphasis makes me uneasy. If the believer loses? Well, yes it may occur...but not too often or for too long... or we may call your salvation into question! I guess what I'm attempting to say is that salvation remains in Christ's perfect life alone! Yes, He gives us the Holy Spirit to help us; and yes, He desires a life "holy" and centered on Him. Yet, "salvation", the Gospel, is NOT a proclaimation of changed lives! It's about JESUS' life and death and resurrection FOR ME! I believe the FACT of this ABSOLUTELY FREE GIFT and am ASSURED of my salvation! Living under this grace is a discipline! It can be a struggle. Some of us have it easier than others, at least in the so-called big sins... Discipleship to Jesus is an invitation to spiritual warfare! To give up at times in the fight or live a life without God as your supreme focus is to invite disgrace on the name of the Lord. Yet God knows our hearts better than we do. Many things are in His timing alone. I think we must assure those who struggle that they have absolute, total salvation in the midst of these struggles because they have believed. There are defintely rewards here on earth, and perhaps in heaven too, for persevering in the race and staying close to Christ! But our salvation is NOT at stake when we have believed in Jesus' substitutional offering for us. Again, our salvation is absolutely free and we can rest in this assurance... Praise God! 3. Scriptures? John 11:25 "Jesus said to her (Martha), 'I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. DO YOU BELEIVE THIS?" Ephesians 2:8 "For it is by GRACE you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the GIFT of God..." Grace always, Cindy p.s. Hi Maryann! :-)) I did get your e-mail; sorry for not writing back yet. I've just moved also. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Great to hear from you again!! Been wondering how you have been. Missed your post's. You have made a very important point. You are right on when you pointed out that: "my changed life is not the proof of the actuality of my possessing salvation!" VERY VERY GOOD POINT!! Thank you for bringing that out so strongly. Many times and also with the New Age etc religions, people change their lives all the time. That is NO proof that one in in the Biblical belief system! The reason I can say that is, there was a thing called "Visions" that was one of those, "pick yourself up by the boot straps and make yourself good" systems going around work. I have seen that also make dramatic changes in people. Their focus was on themselves, by themselves. So dramatic were the changes that many people went to these seminars to "fix" themselves like their friends did. The difference in the "Visions" people's "fruits of self" and what I have experienced is the focus! This is God and only God because of God! In that light, what a terrible slap to the face of Christianity to not have "fruits of the Spirit" to draw people in like the "New Ager's!" You said: "The changed life emphasis makes me uneasy. Please don't think that this is my whole emphasis! It's NOT!!! Consider this: Where there is birth, there is growth! Where there is birth and no growth, there is death! Where there is birth and little growth, there is retardation. Please don't be afraid to grow!! Why are there so many "bearing fruit" parables and stories in the Bible? Please don't be afraid to use the growth in you that the Holy Spirit has worked and a witness to others. I truly understand that you have had no BIG change in actions as you and so many wonderful SDA's had no other choice than to be on "good behavior all your lives." Go back and read the looooong winded post several weeks ago in the "Witness in the Workplace" thread and you'll see the difference in the sterile environment you came from and what so many Christians have to deal with. It really is different out there where I came from!;-)) Please don't believe that I have ever said that "fruits of the Spirit" get us an iota of salvation! I certainly don't get that thought from Colleen, Max, Bruce and others here either! "Fruits of the Spirit" are evident BECAUSE we are saved. I don't even want to get into the subject of having to judge/evaluate in a non-hypocritical way as to whether a person is demonstrating "fruits of the Spirit" as a result of Christ or of a self centered thing like "Visions!" We are called upon in the Bible to be discerning. THANKFUL FOR A CHANGED LIFE AND FREEDOM FROM LEGALISM.....Maryann | ||
| Colleentinker |
Has salvation made a difference my life? YES! Have I observed it make a difference in others" lives? YES! The behavior, though, is not what convinces me of a person's changed life. When we have experienced the Holy Spirit, we can sense it in another person. The Holy Spirit also makes us sensitive to the honesty or deceptiveness in others as well. As an exanple, I have a student who has real pain in his past. He lives with shame and resentment. He is very bright and often very talkative. Other times he is quiet and appears depressed. He is capable of destructive, hurtful behavior and is sometimes out-of-control. On the other hand, there are times when he is open to truth in a way that is surprising for a 14 or 15 year old. His questions in class have resulted in the most spiritual discussions and the most overt opportunities I've had to discuss my faith and the love and mercy of Jesus. I'm not at all sure this boy has accepted Jesus. I really don't know. But I do know that he has not turned his heart away from Him. He has a persistent streak of hunger and honesty running through him. Changed behavior is an evidence of a changed life, yes; but the behavior itself is not what convinces me the change is of God. What convinces me is the presence of the Holy Spirit which I can sense in another Christ-follower. This is the unity, the oneness Jesus prayed we would have. Praising God for life with His Spirit! Colleen | ||
| Dan |
Good - But Non-Meritorious - Works I enjoyed your post, Cindy. Great insights. There are two things that have happened with my thoughts and behaviors since I finally gave up on my efforts to help God save me - and surrendered everything to Him. I finally raised the white flag and said, ěI give up. The more I try to be good the more I realize how truly bad I really am.î Since that moment, here is what has occurred in my life: (1) A lot of loving (unselfish) feelings and acts have been produced in me which have been none of my doing. I have not thought about these feelings and acts before they occurred, nor have I in any way sought to make them happen - they have just sprung forth from me spontaneously as Godís own love has poured into me. (2) Godís law (of love) now makes a whole lot of sense to me. I no longer see it as a type of legal code but rather as the principle upon which the harmonious functioning of the universe depends. In other words, I now see all the revealed elements of Godís law (of love) as having been given to us to prevent us from hurting ourselves - not to be ěkeptî as some sort of prerequisite for being saved. Therefore, I attempt to conform my life to these principles now because I see that it is in my own best interest to do so. Every time I vary from these principles, I hurt myself in some way, and I do not want to be tearing myself down that way anymore. Therefore, my life is much more in conformity with Godís law (of love) now than it was before my surrender (conversion). And yet, I am still not producing a single virtuous (unselfish) thought or act in my life! My every thought is still sinful (selfish), and I still need a Savior to substitute His righteousness for mine 100% because I still have none of my own. The problem with legalists is that they insist that after conversion they are able (with a little help from God, of course) to actually eliminate all or part of the sinning (selfishness) in their lives. And, in fact, they believe it is absolutely necessary to eliminate all - or at least the grossest part of - their active sinning in order to demonstrate their continued commitment and be saved. But the genuine Christian is not able to produce one more bit of righteousness in his life that is the non-Christian. When I am performing acts of genuine love these are not being produced by me but are being produced as a result of Godís own love flowing through me. I never develop any love of my own and therefore never myself produce a single righteous (loving) thought or act - even after conversion. And when I now make efforts to keep myself in line with the elements of Godís law (of love) which He has chosen to reveal to me, I am doing that for purely selfish (sinful) reasons in that I am doing it to avoid further hurting and damaging myself. It is a case of doing the right thing but for the wrong reasons. Therefore, even these efforts to conform to Godís law (of love) are not meritorious (virtuous). It is good that I am doing this now because I injure myself far less than before (which is Godís desire) - but my motives for keeping close to Godís law are still selfish (sinful) and I am not a bit more intrinsically righteous now than I was before conversion. One of the biggest differences in my new life in Christ is that I never worry about my thoughts and behaviors anymore in terms of ěreligionî or spirituality.. I know that my thoughts are evil (selfish) continuously and that there will never come a time in this life when I will be able to think or act righteously (unselfishly). But I appear as perfect in Godís sight now - so why would I ever possibly be concerned or worried about my behavior and how I appear in Godís eyes? Those who are concerned about their behavior and how their actions appear in Godís sight obviously believe they are capable of doing something that would please God. They donít really believe the Bible when it says that the best they can ever produce is as filthy rags in Godís sight. Those who are obsessed with meeting ěChristian standardsî and eliminating sin from their lives obviously have no confidence in Christís promise that if they will but surrender to Him they will appear as perfect in Godís sight and will never again have to concern themselves with the vain struggle to eliminate sin (selfishness) from themselves. Dan | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Cindy! So good to see you back. Your words have always been an inspiration to me. And you, quite possibly, are the only person who understands what I have been saying. (except for Pat, of course) I am somewhat discouraged with this forum, quite honestly, because I feel that the Gospel is being overrun by an emphasis on the lives of the believers. Unlike the majority of the posters here, I see nothing inherently good in my own life and behavior. There are, as was pointed out above, many athiests and non-Christians whose kindness and morality greatly exceeds my own. Where does that leave my testimony? I feel like I am on an SDA forum, rather than an former SDA. I feel that everytime a statement of Gospel is made, there is someone waiting to say "yes, but.." and to try to draw us back into the swamps of legalism. Quite honestly, I hear very little difference in the "gospel" on this forum than I do on the other 4 or 5 SDA forums that I am on. If I am not saved only by the goodness and mercy of Christ, then I am not saved at all. And, frankly, I need desperately to hear people tell of the magnificence and wonder of the saving work of Jesus Christ for us instead of touting their own spiritual success. I, like you, Cindy, am very uncomfortable with a gospel that directs a person to look at his own supposed "righteousness." Is there not enough to talk about, is there not enough to extol in the virtues of Jesus Christ? And I am at a point right now that I need encouragement. Anyone who insists I must direct my focus to my own life is only provoking discouragement, clutching and grabbing at me and trying to pull me down into the gloom of the "other gospel" preached by SDAs, RCs, and anyone else who thinks there are more important spiritual experiences that merely believing on the One Whom God has sent. So I guess I will take a vacation from all forums for a while. May God lead us all into a deeper understanding of His infinite mercy to us for the sake of the doing and dying of His Son, Jesus Christ. God bless you all, Patti | ||
| Rayna |
Patti don't give up posting the true gospel. You know I agree that our salvation is a gift from God, forgiveness and righteousness imputed to us freely when we believe that God has given His son to us. This is the good news of the gospel. We also have eternal life in Him, already paid for, and sealed. If people cannot get excited about this message, there is something wrong,.We are the children of Abraham, children of faith in God's word. Our inheritance is eternal life, not because we have to work for it as a reward, but it is a gift I will not give up posting this wonderful message Patti. Hang in there. I just worked the past 3 days, and can't post on weekends. Will do more tomorrow. Afraid I cannot get excited about my life either. Feel myself to be a sinner but am happy and at peace with God in knowing there is no condemnation for me. My prayer is only for God to be merciful to me a sinner. Any blessings I receive are because of Jesus and not anything in me. | ||
| Patti |
Rayna, Please forgive me for my serious blunder in overlooking you! It has been a tough weekend. And, yes, you have always uplifted the perfection of Jesus Christ alone, and have been (and continue to be) a great blessing to me! God bless you! Patti | ||
| Cindy |
Maryann, Hi! thanks for your response... I realize that you, too, believe in Christ's finished work for you. I guess I just wonder if speaking so much of the changed life is a little too much emphasis on the EFFECT of this GOOD NEWS...not enough emphasis on the glorious GOOD NEWS itself! Are we thinking we need to go beyond that simple Gospel message of the Cross?...that it does not have enough Wisdom and Power by itself to convince people? I'm definitely not afraid to grow! I'd love to be perfect! Never in despair because I'm always trusting in God's presence perfectly... Never in fear because of that same perfect trust... Never resentful or bitter over what someone has said or done to me... Always, always having the exact right response to every situation!... And yes, I accept the Holy Spirit's help in all these areas. I rely on this "Comforter" every day...when we believe on Christ we are promised this Helper! And, Maryann, I know we have come from completely different backgrounds, but my life has not been "sterile" or even one of "good behavior" at all...:-)) I think Satan works however he can! As Oswald Chambers writes, sin is not a matter of morality or immorality, it is the disposition that says, "I am my own god." This may work itself out in "decorous morality" or "indecorous immorality", but it still is the same!! "When our Lord faced men with all the forces of evil in them, and men who were clean living and moral and upright, He did not pay any attention to the moral degradation of the one or to the moral attainment of the other; He looked at something we do not see, the disposition." STILL!! WHAT IS OUR MESSAGE TO BE? I still maintain that JESUS CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED FOR ME! is to be our message! Of course, we can tell others what EFFECT (growth and healing) this has had on our lives, but the MAIN thing is to remain the main thing!! JESUS, His perfect life in place of my sinful one, given as a Free Gift of Unmerited Grace... I still think this is where the real Power is!! NOT in a proclamation of our changed lives, not in our piety or prayers, but in the CROSS! This is where the Holy Spirit is poured out, when we believe the message of Jesus! So if we want the Holy Spirit's power in our lives, I feel we need to insist on the supremacy of the preaching of the Cross. I don't think it gets any better than that! As Paul said, "Woe is me if I preach not the Gospel!" and also,... "But God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our Lord Jesus Christ." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Patti, No, please don't take a vacation on us! We need and appreciate your postings! Besides, we like you, and don't want you to go away frustrated! (Remain here and be frustrated instead! :-) Your wrote: >I feel like I am on an SDA forum, rather than >an former SDA. I feel that everytime a statement >of Gospel is made, there is someone waiting to >say "yes, but.." and to try to draw us back into >the swamps of legalism. Wow. As a newcomer, I don't know the history, or what's been said and knocked about over the past months, but I can say this: (1) I *agree* with your view of salvation and righteousness by faith alone in Christ alone; and (2) I haven't read more than maybe one or two postings here that could be construed to advocate anything different! After our salvation, God continues to do a lot of wonderful things for us, as the Holy Spirit fulfills His mandate to "lead us into truth." Some of us have been set free from destructive habits, some of us have been softened into less disagreeable people, etc. I've heard a lot of people posting their praises to God for changes like that. But I haven't seen a single posting where a person takes personal credit for his/her improvements, or claims that any of his/her works are meritorious where salvation is concerned. Really! I haven't! Now, obviously I'm missing *something*, because what you've seen has you really upset and sick of the whole lot of us! But I'm confused. Can you refer me back to some specific postings where the "regulars" on this forum are promoting legalism? Or is it, just *maybe* -- possible -- that your wonderful appreciation for God's grace has made you a little -- maybe -- oversensitive? (Said very timidly and gently, just like I would to my wife! :-) Truly sorry if that sounds presumptuous -- I'm just baffled how I can be enjoying the proclamations of the gospel here in this forum, while you're getting frustrated at the legalism... Gotta go to work now; Have a blessed and peaceful week! Lorin | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, I loved your post!!!!;-)) At least you are responding to the issues and talking about them! Thank you for that!! There are a ton of things that I have to do in the next few days, so will not respond at length right now except in short. Personally, I don't like the emphasis I have put on a changed life!!!! I have just emphasized it like I have because of the post's that seem to put little or no value to a changed life. Some going so far as to say "we" wont be "aware" of changes in our life! I have always been very careful to proclaim the gospel and not skim over it! I don't know how it can be missed? The value is NOT ETERNAL as if they will keep me on the way to heaven!! It is NOT for any part of my salvation. The value is that a changed life CAN be and is sometimes the ONLY witness you are able to give! These ARE NOT things to "blow up" ones chest and say SEEEEEEEE what I have done. These are the things that you "blow up" God and say SEEEEEEEEE what God has done! THEN POINT THE PERSON QUESTIONING YOU TO JESUS! There is a huge difference. As to the "sterile" environment. If you haven't read about the last story in "Witness in the Workplace," you wont understand what I ment. There is much to much to comment on the comment about the "theology shift" as opposed to the "dramatic action shift" I was talking about. I will get back to that in a few days. You said: "I still think this is where the real Power is!! NOT in a proclamation of our changed lives, not in our piety or prayers, but in the CROSS!" I couldn't agree more! Tell me though, are you able to always proclaim the gospel or the power of God to people!? There are people that are NOT open to any talk of God for any reason! But, when they see a dramatic change in your life and they say, "hey Cindy, what changed your life?," you can THEN direct them to God and his awesome sacrifice and His power! THAT IS ALL I'M TRYING TO SAY!;-)) I'm soooo glad you are back:-)) GOD SAVES LIVES GOD CHANGES LIVES..........Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lorin, Thank you for your post. Thank you for understanding what is being said and being able to see that there are two sides of a house with two different views of the same thing that can come together in a beautiful marriage! ;-) Thank you for reading to understand rather than to "pick." I may need to follow your lead on that too;-)) Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, Absolutely! don't leave;-(( Could we start this discussion over and each ask JUST one question at a time and each answer THAT question to the other's reasonable satifaction? I truly want to understand why you seem to discount the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as a witness to others? That can Q...1? Or if you would rather, you ask Q...1 ;-)) Should you want to do this, could you keep the answers relatively short and combine Bible equally with your explaination of that verse or verses along with what it means to you personally? Rayna, I would like to do the same with you;-)) One of you guys start a new thread if you like. :):):)........Maryann | ||
| Dan |
When you hear the question asked ěDid salvation change your life?î - what is usually being asked is ěHave you become to some degree less sinful since being converted?î Or, ěHave you eliminated some forms of selfishness (sin) from your life?î But this thought is probably the last thing that would ever cross the mind of someone who was truly converted ń that they were somehow improving (every day in every way). I discovered the Gospel and left Adventism many years ago, but I see far more sin in my life today than I did on the day I was converted. Consider this quote from an unknown author which was included in the book Steps To Christ: ěThe closer you come to Jesus, the more faulty you will appear in your own eyes; for your vision will be clearer, and your imperfections will be seen in broad and distinct contrast to His perfect nature. This is evidence that Satanís delusions have lost their power; that the vivifying influence of the Spirit of God is arousing you. ěNo deep-seated love for Jesus can dwell in the heart that does not realize its own sinfulness. The soul that is transformed by the grace of Christ will admire His divine character; but if we do not see our own moral deformity, it is unmistakable evidence that we have not had a view of the beauty and excellence of Christ. ěThe less we see to esteem in ourselves, the more we shall see to esteem in the infinite purity and loveliness of our Saviour. A view of our sinfulness drives us to Him who can pardon; and when the soul, realizing its helplessness, reaches out after Christ, He will reveal Himself in power.î When I was an Adventist my eyes were always on myself as I struggled daily to produce some righteousness in myself. I didnít realize that any so-called ěrighteousnessî I could produce was nothing more that filthy rags in Godís sight. In those days I greatly minimized my sin problem, telling myself that I only had a limited number of problem areas in my life which I needed to get under control. I refused to believe the Bible when it says that all my thoughts are evil ń continuously. I didnít believe that my sins were almost limitless. I would tell people in those days that there was great change and improvement going on in my life, but in my heart I knew better. I had a good act, though, and I guess I fooled a few people. But I couldnít fool myself and I couldnít fool God. In my new life in Christ, I am more humbled by the day as the Holy Spirit reveals ever more clearly the true extent of sinís hold upon me. Even those acts which I am certain are righteous turn out to be, under the Spiritís revelation, riddled with selfishness (sinfulness) from beginning to end. Even what I do right is done for the wrong reason ń so that I can never boast or even give myself a pat on the back. What this does though is it drives me even more desperately to the foot of the Cross where lies my one and only hope. If I could eliminate a single area of selfishness (sinfulness) from my life, then that part of me would not require a Savior and I could present it to God without Christís righteousness standing in its place. If I could truly eliminate a single variety of selfishness (sinfulness) from myself then I could boast and feel just a tiny bit less desperate and dependant upon Christís saving grace. But that will never happen. Dan | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Dan, I appreciate the thought and care that you put into your postings! Your story is inspiring! Now I see where you were heading with your original question to Max ("are you less sinful now?"), and I see I gave the "wrong" answer! :-) But I wonder if we really disagree fundamentally, or if this is just Maryann's "two views from the same house" situation again. Help me understand, here: You wrote, "I discovered the Gospel and left Adventism many years ago, but I see far more sin in my life today than I did on the day I was converted." That's good! I totally agree that our awareness of our sinfulness increases in proportion to our closeness to Christ. BUT are you saying that, since the time of your conversion, the indwelling Spirit of God has not given you victory over *any* besetting sin? Onlookers would see no change in Dan at all? You, looking at your heart, can discern no imprint left by the Spirit at all? If so, I'd humbly suggest that you're missing out... but I don't think that's the case! You also wrote, "But this thought is probably the last thing that would ever cross the mind of someone who was truly converted." You seem to be equating any awareness of victories over sin, with self-exalting, works-righteousness. Say it ain't so! :-) In your posting, intentionally or not, you redefined "Did *salvation* change your life?î (God's work!) to "Have *you* eliminated some forms of [...]sin?î (MY work!). To *your* version of the question, I'd answer a resounding "No!" right along with you. But that's not how I took the original question, and I'd bet that it's not how Max meant it. (Max?) For myself, I see no contradiction in agreeing with your excellent affirmation of our inability to save ourselves, while at the same time rejoicing in what God has managed to do with my unworthy "raw material." Have our experiences with SDA perfectionism perhaps left us scared and unwilling to acknowledge that the Holy Spirit (not us!) actually *does* do something within us, in the here-and-now? Resting in God's finished Work, not Mine, :-) - Lorin | ||
| Dan |
Hi Lorin! Thanks for your response. You brought up a lot of good points. Iíll have to answer you in two posts. First off, I was noting that I have found questions such as these ń regarding change after conversion - are USUALLY used to get at the issue of there being an increasing righteousness after conversion (the SDA view, for example). I am new on this forum and do not know Max or what he meant by his questions; that is why I asked for clarification from him (which I havenít gotten yet). So I am not saying he meant it one way or another ń I just donít know. Secondly, I didn't say I had not experienced change after conversion, only that I keep seeing more and more sin in my life ń even in the most unlikely of places. Iím saturated with it, in fact ń more so than I ever imagined. That is why there would just be no way for the thought that I was becoming less sinful to enter my head ń how could it when I see selfishness (sinfulness) in more of my thoughts, feelings and motivations by the day. You see, I donít see myself as less selfish (sinful) than people who are not converted. In fact, I honestly cannot imagine that there is anyone more sinful than me ń even after being a true Christian for several decades. It would just never be in my mind to come to God and thank Him that I am not as selfish (sinful) as I was yesterday ń and not as selfish as all those unconverted people out there. I could never utter the Phariseeís prayer, ěGod, I thank you that I am not like other menÖî (Luke 18:11), because I am just like all other men in terms of selfishness. I have become saved as a result of Christís righteousness; I havenít started developing a little righteousness of my own. Like every other man, I will have to depend upon Christís righteousness 100% if I want to qualify for eternal life. So my prayer is always the Tax Collectorís prayer: ěGod, have mercy on me, a sinnerî (Luke 18:13). Nothing more, nothing less. There is no claim here of getting a little better in terms of selfishness (sin), of being better now than I was before (or as other men are still). To see myself as more sinful by the day does not trouble me though, as it would have when I was an Adventist ń because all my sins are now covered by the blood of Jesus. As did Paul, I rejoice today as the knowledge of my own selfishness (sinfulness) increases. I want all the selfishness in my life identified and exposed to the light of day. ěAs [Christ] said unto me, ëMy grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness.í Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities Ö for when I am weak, then I am strongî (2 Corinthians 12:9, 10). But this is not to say I havenít changed, for I have experienced astounding change in my thinking, outlook and perspective. Like those in the early church, I have literally had my whole world turned upside down after receiving the Gospel. There is virtually nothing I view in the same way as I did before. The biggest change, though, is that I no longer feel hopeless like I did when I was an Adventist. I finally came to the point as a young man where I just gave up on any hope of salvation for myself and left the Church and left God. It wasnít that I believed Adventism was wrong, because I certainly didnít. I believed it was the absolute truth. I was the problem, in my mind ń not the Church. I knew that there was just no way for a sinner of the type I was to ever meet the requirements of Godís law sufficiently to be saved. But that giving up on myself turned out to be the best thing I could have done because it allowed me to be rid of my last selfish resistance to the Holy Spirit - so that He could open my eyes up to the truth of the Gospel. Within 9 months of giving up on myself (surrendering), God had brought to my understanding the full Gospel message and I have never been the same since. Dan |
