| Author | Message | ||
| Dale |
Dan, Your last two postings have been a real blessing to me as I can so clearly identify with what you have said. I left SDAism officially last February. Having spent a lifetime (52 years) of attempting to perfect my character, I too finally raised the white flag of surrender. My selfish, sinful desires are now so apparent to me, and yet, every once in a while, I am absolutely astounded (why??) that I no longer desire a certain thing that I used to strive so hard to overcome! What an awesome Spirit that lives within us and does the changing for us! I still struggle with my sinful desires, please don't misunderstand, but I am in absolute awe that when a particular selfish desire is gone, the battle has been won for me and I can truly be free! No more fighting the battle. And now I can stand back and praise my Lord and Savior for the victory instead of patting myself on the back for being a conqueror. The Spirit Within, Dale | ||
| Bruceh |
Hi everybody. Just wanted to say Hi. Hi Marryann Good to see that you are still here. I am just catching up. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Bruce;-)), Boy oh boy, I miss seeing your post's. Wish you could hang with us more. I'm sort of in a rut on one subject and your input would really be great:) Look for my call tomorrow to get that referal I keep forgetting to get;-( Missing 2 FAF's and Sundays has be drained!;-( Upward and onward......Maryann | ||
| Max |
Bruce! Welcome back! | ||
| Max |
To all! 9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." From Luke 18 NIV. This is a "changed life" passage. Whose life was changed? The Pharisee's? No, for he only kept chugging right along in his own self-righteousness. The tax collector's? Yes, for he "beat his breast and said, `God, have mercy on me, a sinner.'" It was God working in him who caused the change, and it was God who did all of the exalting. The exaltation was all of God's doing and it would be the last thing on the tax collector's mind to claim credit that his breast-beating was a "good work" which merited his justification before God. Nowhere does Scripture say we should emphasize or proclaim the fruits of the Spirit in our lives as a reason for justification sanctification. As far as the meaning of my posted questions are concerned, Colleen came closest to understanding them. For she pointed out that it is the Holy Spirit who gets all the credit, for it is the Holy Spirit who bears the fruits on our branches. No, we only emphasize and proclaim the power of God. When I get time I'm going to post some of Paul's Scripture on "boasting," for I think it is very relevant here. Max of the Cross | ||
| Lorinc |
Hi Dan, Thanks for elaborating! That was a beautifully spoken (written) post. I'm a new guy here, too, so I'm also not sure, from time to time, where everyone's coming from. Sometimes I'm not sure where *I'm* coming from! :-) I remember that, for me, one of those moments when the "light came on" in my head with regard to the whole "stand in the presence of a Holy God without a mediator" thing was when somebody pointed out that "perfectionism" actually instills a *lower* concept of God's holiness, despite its protests to the contrary. While seeming to exalt God (or at least His Law), it actually brings His standards down to within reach of man. (Lorin: "Hey... that makes sense!") How much better that we can trust in the Lord Who crossed an infinite (not just fairly wide) gulf, to accomplish our salvation *for* us! - Lorin | ||
| Dan |
Hi Lorin! Thanks for that last post. Here is the second half of my response to your original post, as promised LORIN WROTE: ìÖ are you saying that, since the time of your conversion, the indwelling Spirit of God has not given you victory over *any* besetting sin? Onlookers would see no change in Dan at all? You, looking at your heart, can discern no imprint left by the Spirit at all? If so, I'd humbly suggest that you're missing out... but I don't think that's the case!î Onlookers (my Adventist friends and family) certainly saw a change in me when I found the Gospel, Lorin, but it was not one they approved of or were attracted to. They in fact thought I had sold my soul to the devil ñ and they have not changed their minds in all these years since I found Christ. While I do indeed detect the ìimprint left by the Spiritî in my heart, the world will always hate Christians and will never find their thinking or their lives attractive in the least. So the notion that Christians are to be attracting (witnessing to) non-Christians with their lives does not comport with the facts. The world found Jesusí thinking and loving life so repulsive that it could not endure His continued presence here. Two Religions There are two and only two philosophies\religious views in this world. The one looks to man for the fulfillment, betterment and ultimate salvation of the human race; the other looks to God alone as manís only hope. If you want a clue as to which camp particular individuals are likely in, observe the focus of their attention: are they generally looking at themselves or at Christ. Donít listen to what they say, because both camps claim to be looking to God alone. But look to see who carries the actual burden of supplying the righteousness in their view of the plan of salvation. Perfect Expenditure of Effort If it is possible to gain total victory over (eliminate) one besetting sin, then it is possible for us here and now to gain complete victory over every sin - and therefore we do not require a complete saving or a complete Savior. If it is possible to gain total victory over one besetting sin, then righteousness is for us a matter of effort and we all have the obligation to exert the maximum effort possible to eliminate every bit of selfishness (sinfulness) from our lives that we can. This is the view held by most of the religions of men; it is perfectionism in its most common form. While many of those who hold to this view claim that it is not perfectionism because Christ will cover what selfishness is left in us if we havenít eliminated it all (by the time we die), it is indeed perfectionism because the perfection standard has simply been shifted from the quantum of sin eliminated to the quantum of effort expended (in eliminating sin). In other words, if we havenít expended every effort possible during every minute of our lives to eliminate selfishness (sin), then Christ will not make up for what remains in us when we die. Thus we have to reach PERFECTION IN OUR EFFORTS to eliminate every sin. Perfect effort is required, because Christ cannot be expected to cover that selfishness which we could have eliminated from ourselves had we not been so lazy, uncommitted, etc. You also see this where it is held that we need to do something - confess every sin - in order to be saved. Here again, perfection is required - perfection in confessing and asking forgiveness. Once more, the burden is placed upon US to close the salvation deal by supplying its most important element - the make or break it contribution on which our redemption ultimately depends. Self-Discipline vs Elimination of Sin We need to be careful to distinguish self-discipline and suppression from gaining victory over sins. If correct outward behavior and deportment is to be seen as an indication that one is a follower of Christ, then many are going to be misled because there are hundreds of schools of philosophy and psychology, orders, disciplines, treatments, therapies, regimens and pagan religions which have historically produced far more startling positive results in terms of improvement in human behavior than has any form of ìChristianity.î If outward conduct is an accurate indicator of oneís spirituality, then the Pharisees should have been commended by Christ instead of reprimanded. Instead, Christ commended those who were not trying to deny their sinning and who ALWAYS admitted their unworthiness. Jesus told us that we cannot look at the outside of the cup to determine oneís spirituality, but must look to the inside of the cup instead. "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence" (Matthew 23:25, 26). It is what is in the heart that counts, and God is the master reader there. If you are going to tie in eliminating sin from your life with your relationship with Christ, then you are setting yourself up for some very big problems because you are going to be spending more time looking for righteousness in yourself than in Christ. You may tell yourself that it is otherwise, but this is where the overwhelming majority of your time will be spent ñ in looking at you (your thoughts, feelings, behaviors). And what will happen when you enter a period where you are not detecting any significant outward changes? What will happen is you will start to feel guilty and then start to worry and feel insecure regarding Godís love and approval of you. So what you will do is start expending some effort to get some changes and improvements going so you will feel secure with God once again and not have to worry. But by now, of course, you have come full circle back to legalism and the belief that one must make himself attractive to God in order to obtain His full love and approval. Or what if you start having trouble again with one of those ìbesetting sinsî which you were so sure you had eliminated? Well, the same thing is going to happen: you are going to feel estranged from God again. You are going to figure there must now be something wrong with your relationship with God if this ìconquered sinî has come back to haunt you once again. But, in reality, continued sinning does not indicate that your relationship with God has been weakened, compromised or broken off. God still loves you just as much and you are still just as saved. God loves you knowing you are full of sin. The problem was that you started thinking otherwise again as you one more time sought righteousness in yourself rather than in Christ. You know, you canít go wrong when you keep your eyes on Christ and rely on His righteousness alone. But when you start shifting your gaze back to yourself there are a thousand things which can ñ and will - go wrong. Dan | ||
| Max |
Question: If you believe in RIGHTEOUSNESS by faith alone, then why can't you also believe in PERFECTION by faith alone? Here's the relevant Scripture: "Day after day every priest [that's YOU, friend] stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins [sound familiar?]. But when THIS priest [who is NOT a Levitical priest] had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies [YOU if you reject him] to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy." --Hebrews 10:11-14 NIV. Question: What is the reason for separating (1) righteousness by faith alone from (2) perfection by faith alone? Answer: None. There is none. There never has been one. And there can never be one. All business and talk about "I'm righteous by faith alone but not yet perfect" is unscriptural. There just is no Scripture to support it. But there is Scripture to oppose it. And to destroy it utterly. The entire chapter of Hebrews 10 is one such passage, a very powerful sword which does the job cleanly, though not without the shedding of God's blood. If we are saved, we are perfect by faith alone! We're both perfect and imperfect at the same time. Both righteous and unrighteous at the same time. Both sinless and sinful. We will continue to be so until Christ comes in the clouds! And still we walk the pilgrim way. Still train our spiritual muscles as does an olympic athelete -- as Paul did his and told us to do. And still we sin and seek forgiveness. But our ongoing intention is not to sin. And if we do sin, we have an advocate -- Jesus Christ the righteous. Bottom line: All opinions aside and using SCRIPTURE ALONE, you cannot distinguish between righteousness and perfection -- in Christ the two are one and the same thing. Max of the Cross | ||
| Dan |
Hi Max! Thanks for responding to my post. Yes, we are imperfect and perfect at the same time, and our perfection is gained as a result of our faith in Jesus Christ. The price of salvation is perfect conformity to Godís wonderful law of love. But we as human beings are unable to achieve this perfection and are therefore doomed to receive the wages of sin. Christ, however, through his sacrifice upon the cross, has made it possible for all men to have eternal life. To all men our Lord offers the chance to put on His own robes of righteousness so that when the Father looks at us it is not imperfection He sees (ours) but rather perfection (Christís). Therefore I, an imperfect sinner who has placed his faith in Christ, stand before God in perfection. Dan | ||
| Max |
Amen, Dan, Although I was not directing my post specifically at yours. We seem to be in perfect agreement! Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Dale |
Everyone, This has been one of the best topics ever for me! The insights and thoughts are a real expression of the journey I have been on. Dan, your post again was excellent and I would like to comment on a statement you made: In speaking of "Perfect Expenditure of Effort" you wrote "....if we havenít expended every effort possible during every minute of our lives to eliminate selfishness (sin), then Christ will not make up for what remains in us when we die. Thus we have to reach PERFECTION IN OUR EFFORTS to eliminate every sin. Perfect effort is required, because Christ cannot be expected to cover that selfishness which we could have eliminated from ourselves had we not been so lazy, uncommitted, etc." What you are talking about is what I grew up with and even called "supplemental grace". As a child I can remember Sabbath School lessons that taught this very view and I can vividly remember extensive discussions in SS class about it. The basic premise is that Christ's sacrifice will cover ONLY what we are UNABLE to accomplish for ourselves and unless we put forth our utmost and try our hardest, He will never supply His "supplemental grace". In other words, we must meet our end of the deal before He will meet His. All His sacrifice was about was to provide that little extra boost for what we ourselves are incapable of accomplishing. What heresy!! What contrasting joy in accepting His total, complete, and unconditional grace. At times, it still seems almost too good to be true. What love He has shown us! Still amazed by Grace, Dale | ||
| Max |
And I remember this "you are like a water glass" illustration from my days in a La Sierra University Bible class: Your righteousness (perfection, holiness, efforts, etc.) fills the glass part way and Christ's righteousness makes up the difference. And the more of your own righteousness you pour into your glass the less of Christ's you need. Result: if you only get enough of your righteousness into your glass, you can eventually have no need at all for Christ's. What a burden -- satanic and grievous to be borne -- to lay on college kids! | ||
| Dan |
The ìSupplemental Graceî doctrine (as you so aptly labeled it, Dale) is but one of the many tweaks on the doctrine of ìsalvation by worksî that Adventists have come up with to make it appear to outsiders that they do in fact believe in salvation by faith. But, like all the other versions of the plan of salvation we have seen coming from them in the last 50 years, this variation is nothing more than another attempt to hide their rabid legalism. This view of the dynamics of salvation is based principally upon the following quotation found in Ellen Whiteís ìwritings:î ìWhen it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as manís best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Fatherís commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about worksî (Selected Messages, Vol. 1, p. 382). Where is ANY of this in the Scriptures? This view, of course, is at odds with many other views of the salvation process put forth in Ellenís ìwritings,î one version contradicting the next. But this should not surprise us in that she indiscriminately copied from almost every writer whose books fell into her hands. Notice how Ellen just couldnít help herself from jumping right back in with the ìworksî aspect of the process before the minimal ìgraceî part had even cooled on her lips. What I would guess happened is that she copied the first sentence of the paragraph from some author but then, upon reviewing her work later, decided the passage needed a clear ìbutÖî in there ñ lest anyone be led to believe that it is not the ìcommandment-keepingî that saves us in the end. All so pitiful. One deception springing from another. Itís hard for me to imagine today that I ever accepted such nonsense. But that is what I was taught from my motherís knee, and I just put all the contradictions, inconsistencies and unbiblical nature of it all out of my head. Weíre so lucky that God was able to lead us all out of that slough of deception. Dan | ||
| Patti |
If we are perfect by faith alone then we will never see it in our own lives. "Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Heb. 11:1 If we can see it, it is not of faith. Faith is belief in what is undiscernable. | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Dan, (whoever and wherever you are...)! I have really enjoyed the thoughts you've posted! Meant to say so sooner, and comment back; but never have much time lately to do anything but read... I'd never thought of it being a "perfection of effort" as being required; but that is really the truth as many are taught!! We have to keep striving, keep working, keep agonizing over our lives to see whether they growing in Christ sufficiently... To me, the life of Abandonment! to Christ and falling back and Resting! in His arms is so wonderful. He alone can change my thoughts and motives if I let go of trying so hard to help Him! And I still think our brains with all their crazy thoughts, ("stinkin' thinkin'" in AA language), are by far the most important place that needs changing... We need the "mind of Christ". And, the 'Supplemental Grace' concept that Dale (Hi Dale!) brought up is alive and well in many people's minds. The 'Selected Message' passage you quoted above was so familiar to me. And, like you said, EGW is constantly contradicting herself. You can find 'Grace' statements and then, just a little further on, you can find the most legalistic pronouncements! It's what I've always termed "doublespeak"... You find this "doublespeak", of course, in many of the 27 Fundlemental Beliefs, also. Again, my only hope remains in the message of the Cross, Christ crucified for me! His Perfection covers all of me. I absolutely love how Chuck Swindoll talks about grace in his book "The Grace Awakening". In talking about the story of crippled Mephibosheth and King David, he show the parallels of God's grace shown to us needy sinners. Mephibosheth is invited to eat at the King's table-- as we are invited to come and eat at the Banquet already completely prepared for us by Christ's Perfect Life, Death, and Resurrection in our place! Swindoll ends with: "...AND THE TABLECLOTH OF HIS GRACE WILL COVER ALL OF OUR CRIPPLING NEEDS." Isn't that great!? Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
DOES HEBREWS 11:1 SUPPORT THE CONTENTION THAT PERFECTION BY FAITH ALONE RULES OUT SEEING THE FRUITS OF THE SPIRIT IN THE BELIEVERíS OWN LIFE? Hebrews 11:1 NIV says, "Faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.î In context, this verse cannot support any contention that what is unseen is the fruit of the Spirit. The ìfaithî referred to in Hebrews 11:1 is that of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab and many other Old Testament believers in the Messiah to come. In Hebrews 11:1 (and indeed the entire chapter), that which is ìunseenî (KJV) is none other than the Messiah, the Jesus Christ who had then not yet been born. Nothing is said about the fruits of the Spirit being unseen in anybodyís life. | ||
| Max |
Interestingly enough, to continue my post above, the last two verses of this chapter, Hebrews 11:39-40, spell out exactly what was termed "unseen" in the first verse. Here it is in the NIV: These [Abel, Enoch, Noah, etc.] were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us [Jesus Christ] so that only together with us [!] would they be made perfect." Question: When did Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, etc., become "perfect"? Answer: In ca. 31 AD at the cross! The text also specifies that we too became "perfect" at that time twenty centuries ago. Conclusion: We became perfect before we were born! Just as they became perfect only looong after they had died! "So that only together with us would they be made perfect." But it is only by faith, theirs and ours! Max of the cross | ||
| Max |
CHANGED LIFE = NEW CREATION Nowhere does Scripture support the idea that our acceptance of the cross does not result in a changed life. But many passages support the idea that it does. Here's but one: 2 Corinthians 5:17-18 NIV: ^^Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.^^ | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hi! Your post above was great! All of our "perfection" resides in the Cross of Christ!! I hadn't thought in those terms... of us becoming perfect long before we were born and Abraham, etc. becoming perfect long after they died! All by faith in the "something better", JESUS! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
NOR DOES SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT OUR GOOD WORKS CANNOT BE SEEN! But there are many clear passages that say they can -- and must! -- be seen. Here's but one. Matthew 5:14-16 NIV: "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." |
