| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, Not meaning to ignore you, I was still finishing my series of posts on salvation changing our lives. Yes, our perfection resides only in the cross. Therefore we are free to "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." Philippians 2:12-13 NIV. And so we DO have a work to do, a good work full of good deeds and loving words and actions. As people who are perfect in the cross of Jesus, which is our salvation in full, we must work it out according to God's good purpose. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max, The post I enjoyed of yours was about Hebrews 11:39-40... As to your other comments, I would say that, yes, it is preferable and gloryifying to God to 'show' good works; but it just ain't neccessarily in the "must" category!! At least the 'outward' showing of works! You wrote, "they can -- and must! -- be seen." Only God knows the heart where any real changes occur! Acceptance of Christ in a believer may NOT NECESSARILY show a changed "lifestyle". Belief in Jesus' and His Free Gift of Unmerited Grace is not contingent on whether our lives 'show' changes! The gift is not dependent on whether we then live lives "worthy" of this marvelous gift. It is sad to see those who 'seem' to take this wonderfully good news of the Gospel lightly and live lives that do not glorify God... But again, only God knows their hearts. Salvation is assured when we believe in JESUS, He alone is Worthy... and Jesus is Enough! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Greetings Cindy, I agree that ^^Belief in Jesus' and His Free Gift of Unmerited Grace is not contingent on whether our lives 'show' changes!^^ The Scriptural support for that is the incident involving the thief on the cross. However, "Let your light shine," is a commandment of Jesus Christ, is it not? Max of the Cross | ||
| Richardjr |
There is a person that posts on this forum that I would like to express some gratitude to. Even though she was raised in a SDA family where her father was a pastor,and later marry a person that would be a SDA pastor, she has lived in an environment that has been anything but sterile. For she has lived with me an alcoholic for 26 years. If you know anything about alcoholism you know that it is a life of insanity. I am not ashamed to admit that I am an alcoholic because it is through admiting that I am I am able to allow God to heal me. But my main point is that even though at times she has had to show me tough love ,the grace of Christ has shown through her with a consistency that boggles my mind. Thank you, Cindy. If anybody out there is an alcoholic like me i would be interested in dialoging with you, because it is only in helping each other that we can remain sober. | ||
| Max |
Richard, it seems as though you have been watching Cindy's light shine for 26 years! | ||
| Dan |
The ìchangeî which occurs when one surrenders to God is a change of allegiance, outlook and perspective. It is a giving up on self and all notions that the ego can somehow reform and redeem itself (i.e., be ìworthyî in some sense). The change that occurs is NOT a lessening in our selfishness (sinfulness). To say that we change after conversion in the sense of eliminating selfishness (improving ourselves) is not correct. We do not change in that way because we are incapable of it in this life. We will forever in this life continue to do that which we should not do (see Romans 7:14-15; Romans 3:10-18: 1 John 1:8), and therefore we will forever need a COMPLETE saving of 100% of us (not 99.9999999999% of us after we have elimated certain sins from our lives). Nor do we assist God in changing ourselves, for this notion in practice comes down to man saving himself once again. ìIt is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose" (Philippians 2:12, 13). You know, the 12 Step Program really has it right. They stress there over and over that we are powerless to do anything about our problems and can only be granted relief from them by turning them over to God, who grants us a daily, moment by moment reprieve from their power over us. The problems remain with us (we donít become changed or better), but for so long as we keep our wills and our lives turned over to the care of God He will relieve us from the power these problems have over us on a second by second basis. The people who fail in the 12 Step programs are (1) those who will simply not accept it that they cannot change themselves, or (2) those who start out acknowledging their powerlessness and turn themselves over to God ñ but who subsequently start to believe that they are getting better and therefore start to lessen their total reliance upon God. In our lives as Christians, we do not change in terms of becoming less selfish (sinful). I have noticed that the power which certain of my most damaging selfish inclinations has had over me has been lifted, but I am under no illusion that I have improved or been changed in the sense that these selfish inclinations are no longer alive and well in me. I myself am unchanged and, left to my own devises, would go right back to engaging in these particular selfish pursuits. The proof of this is that the minute I cut off from God (by thinking there has been some change in me and I therefore am not as bad off now as I was when I first came to Christ) I begin the slide back into those problems whose power God was lifting from me on a moment by moment basis only. It is at that point that I discover that I in fact had not improved at all but that it was God alone who was allowing me to be free of my most harmful problems (for so long as I remained 100% surrendered). Therefore it is deadly for us to start believing that we have changed and have something to show other men. We are totally at the mercy of our selfish natures just as every other human being is; we have nothing to boast of or to show off to others to prove anything. We are receiving a moment by moment reprieve from our most self-destructive problems ñ that is all. We never become less sinful (selfish) or more righteous. "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners" (Matthew 9:12, 13, NIV). As long as we continue to admit we are sinners ñ as rotten in sin today as on the day we were converted ñ we will be able to allow Christ to save us. The moment, though, that we think we have become a little less rotten than we once were is the moment that our connection of surrender to God is broken and we are once again left to our own devices and the ultimate failure and loss that will result. Our witness to others is not ìCome to Christ so that you can become better people the way you see we areî ñ no, that is not it. Our witness is ìWe have some wonderful news for you ñ Jesus Christ has paid the price to save you because He loves you so much and He wants you back. So why donít you allow Him to relieve you of your burdens and take you back into His bosom?î THIS is our witness. "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light" (Matthew 11:28-30, NIV). Dan | ||
| Dan |
Hi Max! Let me ask you a question regarding your statement below. MAX WROTE: ìNOR DOES SCRIPTURE ANYWHERE SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT OUR GOOD WORKS CANNOT BE SEEN! But there are many clear passages that say they can -- and must! -- be seen.î When you say something ìmustî be done you imply that certain unwelcome consequences will follow if one does not do the thing. What are the consequences if one DOES NOT let his or her good deeds be seen? Will that person be lost? Will his relationship with Christ be severed, damaged, weakened or impaired in any way? Is Christís love and acceptance in some way conditioned upon things we do or do not do? Is that part of the basis of His love for us and His offer of grace ñ what we do for Him? What if I never ñ ever ñ witness? Will I be lost if I hide my light under a bushel? If I willingly (but unnecessarily) live my entire life as a hermit on a mountaintop ñ have I by this choice forfeited any chance at being saved? In other words, are there certain things I must do ñ or avoid doing ñ in order to be saved? Are there certain requirements after all which I must meet in order to qualify for salvation or to trigger the salvation process - or to keep it going? Short of ceasing to believe in Jesus Christ and resisting His Spirit again, is there anything I can do or not do which will cause me to be lost? Is there a limit to what Godís grace will cover? What is your position here? Thanks in advance for considering this. Dan | ||
| Max |
Greetings Dan, I see you've been doing a lot of good, solid thinking. I think you have indeed put your finger on the powerful pulse of the life of every Christian. Right now I won't be able to answer your questions in the depth they require and deserve. But I can give you the best I've got at the moment. I agree completely with this statement of yours: ^^The moment, though, that we think we have become a little less rotten than we once were is the moment that our connection of surrender to God is broken and we are once again left to our own devices and the ultimate failure and loss that will result.^^ And I have asserted on this web site many times the fact that all my, Max's, most righteous, post-salvation deeds are as "filthy rags." I have also stated several times that the closer I come to Jesus the more sinful I seem to be to myself. More next post. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dan again, When I wrote the statement of mine that you just quoted above, the text I was referring to is this one: Matthew 5:14-16 NIV, Jesus preaching his Sermon on Mt. Blessings. ^^ 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. ^^ This is a powerful commandment of Jesus Christ given to each and every Christ follower and cannot be skimmed over or ignored just because we fear that if we "do something" for our Savior we're in grave peril of losing our salvation-by-grace-alone and drifting back into our old SDA mode of salvation-by-grace-plus-good-works. There is no scriptural support for that kind of thinking. And taken to an extreme it will paralize our witness. Jesus says, Come unto me! But he also says, Go into all the world! More next post. | ||
| Max |
Dan again, Here I'll try to answer some of your specific questions: ^^What if I never ñ ever ñ witness? Will I be lost if I hide my light under a bushel? If I willingly (but unnecessarily) live my entire life as a hermit on a mountaintop ñ have I by this choice forfeited any chance at being saved?^^ You're asking me questions I can't answer. Nor can anyone else. Only God knows the heart. Only God knows the future. And only God can answer such questions. I can point you to Scripture, however -- Luke 9:57-62 NIV: 57 As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go." 58 Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." 59 He said to another man, "Follow me." But the man replied, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father." 60 Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." 61 Still another said, "I will follow you, Lord; but first let me go back and say good-by to my family." 62 Jesus replied, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God." Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dan yet again, The question -- ^^Are there certain things I must do ñ or avoid doing ñ in order to be saved?^^ -- assumes that the questioner is NOT saved. And the answer of course is, Yes: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." ^^Are there certain requirements after all which I must meet in order to qualify for salvation or to trigger the salvation process - or to keep it going?^^ The answer to the first part of the question is the same as the answer above: Yes, believe! The second part of the question -- ^^Are there certain requirements after all which I must meet in order ... to keep [the salvation process] going?" -- assumes that salvation is a process. I don't believe it is. I believe it is a once-for-all act completed on the cross where Jesus said, "It [salvation] is finished!" It cannot therefore be a process. Only one more post to go, Dan. Hang in there with me. | ||
| Max |
Hi Dan, Your final set of questions: ^^Short of ceasing to believe in Jesus Christ and resisting His Spirit again, is there anything I can do or not do which will cause me to be lost? Is there a limit to what Godís grace will cover? What is your position here?^^ The problem is not that there is something I can do or not do which will cause me to be lost. The problem is that some are pseudo-Christians who have never been saved, though they are unaware of their unsaved condition. Hear Jesus in his Sermon on Mt. Blessings (Matthew 7:15-23 NIV): 15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' That is my position. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Dan |
Hi Max! Thanks again for your responses. I will try to answer them one by one, as time allows. BTW, I appreciated your two posts with the information from the current MINISTRY magazine. MAX WROTE: ìI agree completely with this statement of yours: ^^The moment, though, that we think we have become a little less rotten than we once were is the moment that our connection of surrender to God is broken and we are once again left to our own devices and the ultimate failure and loss that will result.^^ And I have asserted on this web site many times the fact that all my, Max's, most righteous, post-salvation deeds are as "filthy rags." I have also stated several times that the closer I come to Jesus the more sinful I seem to be to myself. ì Excellent! Then we are in complete agreement there. That was easy. Till my next response, Dan | ||
| Max |
To everyone in general and no one in particular: Why does there seem to be so much fear on FAFF? The idea just hit me that a lot of "formers" don't really believe God loves them and wants them to be happy! Not wretched and miserable all the time! I'm not talking about forced happiness -- "be happy or I'll club you" kind of thing. Real deep-down happiness that results from assurance of salvation, righteousness, holiness, perfection and sinlessness -- all in and of Christ, none in and of ourselves! Don't worry about producing fruits of the Spirit right away. Paul didn't produce any for three years after being zapped and blinded by the light of Jesus. Remember John 3:16-18 NIV: "For God so loved the world [that's YOU, friend] that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." God loves you! All of you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Dan |
Here's my next installment, Max. MAX WROTE: îWhen I wrote the statement of mine that you just quoted above, the text I was referring to is this one: Matthew 5:14-16 NIV, Jesus preaching his Sermon on Mt. Blessings. ^^ 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. ^^ This is a powerful commandment of Jesus Christ given to each and every Christ follower and cannot be skimmed over or ignored just because we fear that if we "do something" for our Savior we're in grave peril of losing our salvation-by-grace-alone and drifting back into our old SDA mode of salvation-by-grace-plus-good-works. There is no scriptural support for that kind of thinking. And taken to an extreme it will paralize our witness. Jesus says, Come unto me! But he also says, Go into all the world! ì --------------------------- RESPONSE: (1) I still canít find your answer to my original question of ìWhat are the consequences if one DOES NOT let his or her good deeds be seen?î You originally said that we ìmustî let our good deeds be seen, which implies some negative consequence attaching to our failure to do so. And now you even strengthen that assertion that we are REQUIRED to perform this type of witnessing by calling this remark of Jesusí a COMMANDMENT. What kind of ìcommandmentî is this? Where does it fit into the overall scheme of being saved and having a relationship with God? Is this ìcommandmentî a requirement for being saved, or is it just good advice? And if it is in the nature of a ìcommandment,î then what will happen if I do not meet its requirements? When you say that something is a commandment or that it ìmustî be done, you have to include with those statements an explanation of what will happen if it is not complied with. That has to be part of the explanation if you are setting out or discussing requirements of some sort. (2) You know, I just do not see where you get a commandment that MUST BE KEPT by all Christians out of Matthew 5:14-16. If one is looking for rules and regulations that must be obeyed in order to be saved and maintain Godís love and approval, then there are a number of texts which could be read in such a way as to seemingly state such requirements and conditions. And yet, we know that that was not the intention of the writers of the Bible when they made these remarks ñ because they would then be contradicting the whole rest of the New Testament ñ and their own writings, in fact - which state clearly and repeatedly that salvation is by faith alone. I am not saying you are doing this, Max, but I just want to inform you that I have no interest at this time in going through that same little set of texts the Adventists always haul out and misinterpret. I have become weary lately of trying to explain those texts to Adventists and would much prefer to move on to other things. Anyway, back to Matthew 5:14-16. To me, this passage is nothing more than advice given for the primary benefit of Christians, not potential converts. Look at the context: Jesus has just finished warning His followers in verses 1O-12 of the type of persecution they could expect to suffer for His sake. The first reaction of one hearing this would be to estimate it would be much better then for Christians to lay low and be as inconspicuous as possible so as not to draw any unnecessary attention - and therefore persecution - to themselves. Jesus reminds His followers, though, that they are the channels through which the light of His love flows into the world and that it is better that they be seen rather be hiding away. In other words, they should stay where they are as Godís representatives on earth. They should perform the daily deeds of their lives among men as Godís representatives on this earth. I donít see anything here in the nature of a command with consequences, and I do not see any tie-in with salvation or Godís approval of us. I see these words as words of comfort from Christ to His followers ñ to allay their fears and make them more certain as to their place and role on this earth. Notice also that this passage is more in the nature of a description of what WILL HAPPEN than it is in the nature of an order which must be taken down and executed on fear of punishment or negative consequences. Jesus says, ìYou are the light of the worldî (vs. 14). So His followers are already the light of the world and in fact cannot help from being that light. This is a consequence which flows naturally and inexorably from the condition of being a follower of Christ. Jesus is not saying, ìWell now, you need to get yourself together and improve yourself into a shining light for all to see.î No, He tells His followers that they are already the light of the world, and then He suggests that this is much better than hiding themselves off in an existence of fear and maybe even shame. And this is because they can be proud of representing the Savior of Mankind. And what is this ìlightî that is shining out from Christís new followers already? Is it the heat generated by a multitude of virtues on display in their lives? Well I donít know about you, but my light ñ my one and only light - is Jesus. ìThe Lord is my light and my salvationî (Psalms 27:1, NIV). Christ is what is shining out from us and we will want to allow Him to shine to His maximum. So once again we come back to Christ ñ and Him only - as our testimony. Our witness is not that Christianity is a good thing to join up with because it changes lives, but that Jesus Christ has already saved our lives. It is a testimony about Christís boundless love, not self-improvement or any other benefit which may inure to those who become Christians. Dan | ||
| Max |
Hi Dan, I do not go beyond Scripture. It was Jesus who said, ^^ 14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. ^^ To me this is more than a suggestion, it is a commandment of the same Jesus Christ who said through the apostle John, "This [3rd angel's message] calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's [Christ's] commandments and remain faithful to Jesus." --Revelation 14:12 NIV | ||
| Max |
Dan [response to (2)], Again I do not go beyond Scripture. Jesus's words are good enough for me. I need to reiterate, though, that none of Jesus Christ's commandments are intended as requirements for salvation, justification, righteousness, holiness, perfection, or sinlessness in either this life or the next. And I don't know why you keep asking me whether or not they are. You're welcome to keep asking, though, because I will never tire of giving you the same answer: No, Jesus Christ's commandments are intended only for people who are already saved, justified, righteous, holy, perfect, and sinless forever in Him. | ||
| Patti |
No, Max, there is no command. We are not told to "make" our light shine; we are told to "let" it shine. To make this a command is to put it under the category of "law." BTW if you read this entire chapter, the whole thing is about "law." Why stop with this verse? "For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." Do you believe that our law-keeping must exceed the Pharisees? Do you believe that we must be perfect even as God Himself is perfect? Now if you say that Jesus was referring to His own imputed righteousness in these texts, then why not in verse 14-16 also? BTW, just what is "our light"? John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not perceived it. 6 There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world. When we believe in Jesus Christ, the light of the world, we cannot keep that Light from shining. The Holy Spirit inspires us to tell others, to praise Him without ceasing, to live joyfully in the knowledge that our salvation has been won in entirety. We uplift Jesus, the true Light of the world. Matthew 5:14 "You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. To say that this passage is referring to our own paltry righteousness reminds me of a statement made by Ellen White (lesser light/greater light) and so brilliantly refuted by a certain zealous former SDA: Why would we need a candle to find the sun? Why would we uphold our own very frail and puny and corrupt righteousness when we can hold up the beacon of the righteousness of Jesus Christ? | ||
| Max |
Oops Dan, I made a mistake. There is a commandment of Jesus Christ meant for those who are not already saved, justified, righteous, holy, perfect, and sinless forever in Him. And only one. And it is in fact not even a direct commandment. It is an indirect one, but a commandment of his all the same. It's one he gave to his disciples just before he ascended into heaven to sit down at the right hand of the Father. It consists of a single word -- believe. And it is one that he told them to pass on to us, since they already believed. Here it is: 14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 15 He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." 19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God. 20 Then the disciples went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked with them and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanied it. --Mark16:15-20 NIV Blessings always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Dan, Your questions are great! I have something for you to mull over. I wish I had the time to post my understanding of what I'm going to toss your way. I'd like you to study it out and see where it leads you. Take a look at these familiar verses. John 3:16-18 NIV: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." AND John 5:24 (NASB): "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." To me, this is the gospel! Believe (and receive) = salvation. There are NO hinges on works, deeds or any other thing. There is nothing that we have to do or can do to maintain our salvation!! It is best described by saying, "the judgement of the righteous is behind them and the judgement of the wicked is in front of them!" You asked a great question when you asked Max: "I still canít find your answer to my original question of 'What are the consequences if one DOES NOT let his or her good deeds be seen?'" Here is where I would like you to take a bit of time and study 1 Cor. 9:24-27 (NASB): 24..."Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25...And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath (crown NIV), but we an imperishable. 26...Therefore I run in such a way, as not with out aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27...but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." Now it is obvious that Paul is speaking to Christians. It is obvious that he is also using himself in the illustration. Remembering back to the John 3 and 5, it is very clear that the judgement is BEHIND us. Our salvation is hinged on only one thing and that is BELIEVE. So what is Paul talking about? If you will do a study on the "crowns of exultation, righteousness, life and glory" you will receive a blessing like you wouldn't believe. Anyway, I truly believe your answer is found in that study. I'm really interested in your conclusion;-)) If you want to talk off the air, you can e-write me gogold@quixnet.net Upward and onward.......Maryann |
