| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
THE IDEA THAT WHEN WE ARE REDEEMED WE AUTOMATICALLY OR "CANNOT HELP BUT" BEHAVE RIGHTEOUSLY IS TOTALLY WITHOUT SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT Leaving aside human ideas and opinions -- no matter how sincere and deeply held -- and going by Scripture alone, we read that the believer's journey takes human effort and lots of it. To cite just one example: Hebrews 12:4-7 NIV: 4 In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. 5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose heart when he rebukes you, 6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son." 7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? In real grace alone, Max | ||
| Patti |
Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and \b(ye shall find rest unto your souls}. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Hebrews 4:1 Therefore, \b(since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it}. 2 For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. 3 Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared on oath in my anger, `They shall never enter my rest.'" And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4 For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." 5 And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 6 It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience (or, disbelief). 7 Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8 For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10 for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience (or, disbelief). | ||
| Max |
IN CHRIST TRUE BELIEVERS ENJOY BOTH REST AND EXERCISE Rest: "For anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his." Hebrews 4:10 Exercise: "Let us run with patience the race that is set before us." Hebrews 12:1 Blessings to all. | ||
| Patti |
2 Tim. 4:6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. | ||
| Max |
PAUL CHARGES TIMOTHY TO PERFORM GOOD WORKS: preach, be prepared, correct, rebuke, encourage, keep head, endure hardship, labor as an evangelist, discharge ministerial duties 2 Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage--with great patience and careful instruction. 3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. 5 But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the duties of your ministry. -- 2 Timothy 4:2-5 NIV PAUL TELLS TIMOTHY OF HIS OWN GOOD WORKS: fighting, racing, and keeping his faith 6 For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day--and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing. -- 2 Timothy 4:6-8 NIV In real grace alone, Max | ||
| Cindy |
Dear All... I had the title wrong of the book I mentioned a few posts above! It is called "Absolutely Free"... still a great title concerning the wonderful gift of the Grace of God!! I've been thinking once again on the fact that JESUS is truly the "stumbling stone"... still! As Simeon prophecied when he held tiny Baby Jesus so long ago: "This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a SIGN that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed..." (Luke 2: 34 &35) I honestly don't understand what you, Max, are saying about a "lawlessness" movement taking over this web site! You talk of "numbers", "groups", "clever sophistries", and "funny jokes"... Maybe I'm just dumb, but I don't see any lawlessness movement at work!! Are we really that far apart in our concept of the all-surpassing, all-sufficient Grace of God as revealed in the life, death and resurrection of JESUS?!! As Michael Card sings, "So come, lose your life for a Carpenter's Son; for a 'madman' who died for a dream...and you'll find the faith His first followers had...and you'll feel the weight of the beam..." I have felt this "weight" and I don't ever want to go back!! May we ALL be able to say here that Christ is "our life!"... and that He really is enough!! As always, grace always.... Cindy | ||
| Max |
Bless you Maryann, Since your post was never answered, at least not on the board, I'll be happy to answer it. Following is your post: ****************************** Hi Dan, Your questions are great! I have something for you to mull over. I wish I had the time to post my understanding of what I'm going to toss your way. I'd like you to study it out and see where it leads you. Take a look at these familiar verses. John 3:16-18 NIV: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." AND John 5:24 (NASB): "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgement, but has passed out of death into life." To me, this is the gospel! Believe (and receive) = salvation. There are NO hinges on works, deeds or any other thing. There is nothing that we have to do or can do to maintain our salvation!! It is best described by saying, "the judgement of the righteous is behind them and the judgement of the wicked is in front of them!" You asked a great question when you asked Max: "I still canít find your answer to my original question of 'What are the consequences if one DOES NOT let his or her good deeds be seen?'" Here is where I would like you to take a bit of time and study 1 Cor. 9:24-27 (NASB): 24..."Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25...And everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath (crown NIV), but we an imperishable. 26...Therefore I run in such a way, as not with out aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27...but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest possibly, after I have preached to others, I myself should be disqualified." Now it is obvious that Paul is speaking to Christians. It is obvious that he is also using himself in the illustration. Remembering back to the John 3 and 5, it is very clear that the judgement is BEHIND us. Our salvation is hinged on only one thing and that is BELIEVE. So what is Paul talking about? If you will do a study on the "crowns of exultation, righteousness, life and glory" you will receive a blessing like you wouldn't believe. Anyway, I truly believe your answer is found in that study. I'm really interested in your conclusion;-)) If you want to talk off the air, you can e-write me gogold@quixnet.net Upward and onward.......Maryann ****************************** My answer: You're right. The gospel of real grace bears the fruit of good works in true believers: * running races * exercising self-control * having aims (goals) * beating the body to make it a slave The Christian pilgrimage demands human effort and plenty of it! Hang in there, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Some who post on this web site are asleep and need to wake up: Real grace does not result in lawless behavior in the believer. Real grace produces real fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Blessings to all, Max | ||
| Max |
Ps. Christ's law is written on our hearts and if we are the recipients of real grace, then our behavior will not abide throwing off of moral restraint. | ||
| Delstar |
"Real grace does not result in lawless behavior in the believer. Real grace produces real fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." You are absolutely right Max. And the only way to produce that fruit is to be connected to the vine. The branch will never of itself produce fruit. Are you of a mind that if you don't have the law in front of you, you will do what you want to do? I have known others with that same problem. Let the Lord Jesus change your 'want to dos' and then you will find real grace. | ||
| Max |
The assertion believers must have the Bible in front of them in order to know what to do is unscriptural. The truth: 2 Corinthians 3:3 NIV: "And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." Blessings. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Delstar, Thank you for seeing that Max, myself and others are NOT upholding ANY kind of works as ANY kind of ticket or maintenance of that ticket to get to heaven!!!! THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!! It was said: "Real grace does not result in lawless behavior in the believer. Real grace produces real fruit. Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire." Stated again: Salvation is by faith alone + NOTHING. Period! Because of salvation, changes take place in our lives. These changes are to point to and glorify the power of God. THE ACCUSATION HAS BEEN MADE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND SOME MORE OVERS THAT SOME OF US SAY: Salvation = believe + witnessing or believe + letting your light shine or believe + a changed life! CINDY!!?? I just canít believe that you appear to have bought into the distortion and blind twisting of what we have said!!!?? You said: ìBy Cindy on Friday, October 20, 2000 - 02:55 pm: Dan, I absolutely agree with your above post. "Jesus didnít say, ìhe who believes + witnesses and letís his light shine sufficiently" has everlasting life. No, Jesus said ìhe who believes" ñ period - has everlasting life." In the context of the above, it really does appear that you think as does Dan, that we are saying that we say that witnessing is part of our salvation. CINDYÖ.You know better then to believe that any of us said that!! Please find where any of the involved onesÖ.Max, Colleen, myself etc have said such a thing! Please do that! PATTIÖYou in particular and Rayna and Dan have posted reams of paper stating that WE have said that our deeds, witnessing, changed life are part of our salvation! Not true!!! Never said that! PLEASE!!!!!!!!! If there is something we said that made you think we attached ANYTHING to Salvation besides beliefÖÖPLEASE state what thread it came from and who posted it. The Christian life is a result of our salvation! What is so hard about believing that! With some, growth may be slow, with others it may be faster. That is between the individual and GOD! On the other hand, you guys are giving us a wonderful platform to proclaim the wondrous work of Christ for EACH AND EVERYONE OF US and the changed life we can have simply by letting the Holy Spirit guide us and FOLLOWING HIS PROMPTINGS. Maryann | ||
| Cindy |
Hi Delstar! I like your name...is that your real one? I was thinking about what you wrote about perhaps needing the law in front of us or we might not do what we 'should'... I used to be so "law" based that I wanted to get the 10 Commandments either engraved in stone or else a big picture to hang in my living room! I had this fear that I needed to keep them in front of me, memorize them more fully so that I would not forget them! I actually thought by doing this I could lessen the likelihood of sinning, at least very much! My perspective has changed so much now that my Focus and Center is JESUS... What a difference!! I do not have that fear of measuring up. He has fulfilled every little bit of that 10 Commandment law, and so many, many more underlying layers of acts and motives that I could never even comprehend or fathom would be a sin.... I've been thinking about this a lot tonight and I realise in some ways the New Covenent of finding our true Sabbath Rest in Christ actually IS a matter of "lawlessness" in certain respects! The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ!! Once we are Christ's, we are invited to stay with Him and we will find REST for our souls. Why go back to something inferior when we have EVERYTHING when we have JESUS! He is our Wisdom, our Rightousness, our Holiness and our Redemption!! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Any idea that rest in Christ is a matter of lawlessnesss is not only unscriptural, it is antiscriptural. Here's some of what Scripture -- as opposed to mere human ideas and opinions -- really does say about lawlessness: 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 (NIV): 1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of LAWLESSNESS is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 5 Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? 6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7 For the secret power of LAWLESSNESS is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. 8 And then the LAWLESS one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness. | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Maryann, I am sorry if I seemed to accuse you (or others) of not believing in salvation by faith in Christ alone. As we know, God alone knows our hearts and I don't want to disparage anyone in their journey with Christ. I know how discouraged I can become so easily. I do not think you uphold the idea of works as a 'ticket' to heaven. But, I honestly feel that there are some here who DO feel they MUST have these works evident in their life to MAINTAIN their ticket!! This maintainance concept is where the area of disagreement seems to be. Does Jesus' Righteousness cover me fully, completely and ALWAYS!? Perhaps this type of conversation is not the best way to communicate; I wish I could see you all and we could SMILE at each other! ;-))) Peace...... Grace Always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
On lawlessness and what real grace is all about written only to true believers: 1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is LAWLESSNESS. 5 But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8 He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9 NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD WILL CONTINUE TO SIN, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 11 This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. 12 Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. 13 Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 16 This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we OUGHT to lay down our lives for our brothers. 17 If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18 Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything. 21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24 Those who OBEY HIS COMMANDS live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us. --1 John 3 NIV Blessings to all! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy, Why the fear of fruits of the Spirit? As you said, Christ IS the focus. I can't agree more! In everything we do and say, we should point to Christ, the center of our life! What is it you are measuring up to when you are living the Christian life? You might as well forget about it as you will NEVER measure up. The full measure was completed by Christ! There should never be a fear of striving to live a Christian life, we are told to do just that! But that has NOTHING to do with our salvation! Can you acknowledge what it is that you disagree with? Use the post, date, time and author and why you disagree.....Please Please listen to what is being said. DON'T listen to what others think I/we are saying. THEY GOT IT TWISTED REALLY BAD. ;-)Still glad you are back;-)) Maryann | ||
| Max |
Any assertion that true believers MUST have works evident in their life to MAINTAIN their ticket to heaven is unscriptural. Here's the truth: 11 Day after day every priest stands and performs his religious duties; again and again he offers the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God. 13 Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, 14 because by one sacrifice HE HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy. 15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: 16 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." 17 Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." 18 And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. --Hebrews 10:11-18 NIV Blessings to one and all! | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Cindy ;-)))))))), Yeh;-) I'd love to chat face to face! You said: "But, I honestly feel that there are some here who DO feel they MUST have these works evident in their life to MAINTAIN their ticket!! This maintainance concept is where the area of disagreement seems to be." Can you PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZE thread, date, time and author of that concept being projected! I really want to see it for myself! I just have not seen it or didn't read it. Look for an e-note tomorrow (or I guess it is already tomorrow;-) Maryann | ||
| Max |
Any idea that the branch (believer) can be disconnected from the vine (Jesus) and STILL produce good fruit is totally without scriptural merit or support. Just the opposite is the case. Here's scriptural proof: 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples. --John 15:5-8 NIV Blessings to all! |
