| Author | Message | ||
| Dan |
Hi Max! The problem with Adventists is that they talk out of both sides of their mouth. They say they believe that salvation is by faith alone, and yet they also teach the opposite ñ that salvation is achieved by manís own efforts. They try to soften that second position by saying that Godís help makes it all possible, but it is clearly their own efforts alone on which they are relying. And Adventists do the same thing with the ìfruits of the Spiritî that you are doing ñ they take these fruits out of the ìinevitable resultsî category and twist them around until they appear as REQUIREMENTS for being saved. And this transmogrification from fruits to duties is really not done all that cleverly or subtly at all: they simply SAY that yes these fruits are the inevitable results produced in us after we come to Christ, AND YET they turn right around and TREAT THEM as absolute DUTIES and REQUIREMENTS for being saved! And this is what they teach their children, which is why these Adventist kids (such as I was) grow up to be so messed up in the head spiritually. I tell you, I was never sure of just what thoughts and behaviors would or would not keep me out of heaven. Most Adventist view almost all behavior as having a possible determinative effect on their salvation. Many even view things such as smoking as being able to keep one from being saved (I did). If there was a worldwide announcement today that Christ was coming in one week, it would in most cases become readily apparent who the true Christians were and who those were who were only using Christís name while going right on relying upon their own efforts to save themselves. With the true Christians there would be a calmness and unspeakable joy that would settle in over them because they knew their salvation had been determined some 2,000 years ago and their only interest now was in being physically reunited with their Lord. Among those in the ìworks-basedî religions of men, however, there would be seen a frantic effort to ìget readyî and to ìget themselves right with Godî ñ because all along it was their own righteous on which they were banking for their salvation. Any joy experienced by this group would be a strained joy indeed, far overshadowed by the anxiety and uncertainty they were experiencing regarding whether or not they would be included among the saints. For, you see, those in this group had never really accepted it that Christ had saved them from the wages of sin. The closest those in this group ever came to that belief was the view that Christ had removed the ìcertaintyî that all men would be lost ñ but that in the end He would only save those who had improved themselves sufficiently and met certain conditions. Whatever commands, suggestions or advice Jesus gave were for our benefit, Max ñ not our salvation. He warned us to avoid those things which would hurt us most and to do those things which would benefit us most. But He never made these things conditions for receiving His saving grace. To receive that, only one thing is required: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life" (John 5:24, NIV). When Jesus would tell someone, ìGo and sin no moreî (See John 8:11), He did not add in ìso that you can be saved.î Jesus wants each and every one of us to stop sinning ñ but not so that we can qualify for salvation. If we could qualify for salvation we would not need to avail ourselves of what was done at the cross. No, Jesus desires us to stop being selfish (sinful) because He loves us and it pains Him so to see us hurting ourselves. I could never have seen this as an Adventist, though. I would have always seen this ìgo and sin no moreî as simply the statement of another ìcommandmentî which MUST be complied with in order to be saved. I could not have imagined that Christ would say something like that just because He loved us and didnít want to see us keep hurting ourselves. Yes, I was told that God was a God of love, but except for that solitary assertion, every other Adventist teaching told me just the opposite ñ that God was a God of requirements and demands who put these first over any sort of feeling He might have for us. Today, I KNOW I am saved, Max. There are no further conditions left for me to meet to obtain (or maintain) Godís love, approval and saving grace. There are no MUSTS for me anymore ñ as there were when I was an Adventist. When I read the Bible today under the guidance of the Holy Spirit all I see are words of hope and acceptance. I see promises rather than requirements, good advice rather than conditions for being saved, and unconditional love rather than ìcommandmentsî which must be kept to obtain it. Is there ANY work that Christ REQUIRES of us in order to be saved? Yes there is, but only one: "Then they asked him, 'What must we do to do the works God's requires?' Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent'" (John 6;28, 29, NIV). The peace I have today, Max, exceeds anything I could have imagined when I was an Adventist. Dan | ||
| Max |
All human opinions, theorizing, philosophizing, and accusations -- Adventist or not -- are essentially irrelevant in the face of Scripture alone. And Scripture is clear about salvation: We only believe to accept and maintain it. Therefore, 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. --John 14:15-17 NIV. Grace can never be used as cover for sin, for God is never mocked. Blessings to you! | ||
| Patti |
Grace can never be used as cover for sin, Actually, the Grace of God covers all of our sin. Or else none of us has any hope at all. | ||
| Max |
Any idea that grace doesn't cover all of everybody's sins is unscriptural. ^^What shall we say, then? Shall we go on SINNING so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We DIED to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a NEW LIFE. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was CRUCIFIED with him so that the body of sin might be DONE AWAY WITH, that we should NO LONGER be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been FREED from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also LIVE with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, count yourselves DEAD to sin but ALIVE to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore DO NOT LET SIN REIGN in your mortal body so that you obey its EVIL DESIRES. 13 Do not offer the parts of YOUR BODY to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of YOUR BODY to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For SIN SHALL NOT BE YOUR MASTER, because you are not under law, but under grace.^^ --Romans 6:1-14 NIV. Blessings to all! | ||
| Dan |
MAX WROTE: "Grace can never be used as cover for sin, for God is never mocked." -- I know that is what you believe, Max, and I think that is unfortunate. As for me and my house, though, we will gladly accept the covering of Christís spotless robes of righteousness. ìI will greatly rejoice in the Lord, My soul shall be joyful in my God; For He has clothed me with the garments of salvation, He has covered me with the robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with ornaments, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewelsî (Isaiah 61:10, NKJV) Dan | ||
| Patti |
What a wonderful text, Dan! You know, someday I really need to sit down and do a serious study of the book of Isaiah. Thanks for posting it! | ||
| Max |
Isaiah 61:10 refers to the cover over sins that GOD provides, not to the cover over sins that humans provide for themselves. Grace is something that only God can give out of his own divine love. It is never something that human beings can grab from God and use for their own sinful purposes, as though God were some kind of giant Fool in the sky! This is obvious from the entire chapter 61 (and book!) of Isaiah. God is never mocked in that way or any other. NIV 2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. Many blessings! | ||
| Patti |
Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." | ||
| Cindy |
Dan, simply wonderful! If Grace did not cover my sins what hope would I have? As Frederick Buechner writes when discussing Paul's numerous salutations of "Grace" in his letters: "Grace is the best he can wish them, because grace is the best he himself ever received"!! In 2 Corinthians 9 Paul calls this grace God's "indescribable gift"!! I agree!! Grace always Cindy | ||
| Max |
Scripture is so true! One part dovetails so well with another, especially when we're reading the same writer in the same book: Because the true Christ-follower's sins will never count against him, therefore, NIV Romans 6:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. Blessings! | ||
| Max |
And because grace covers all of the believer's sins -- past, present, and future -- therefore: Galatians 5:16 Live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law. 19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Blessings to all! | ||
| Denisegilmore |
This is a great topic and discussion going on. I have been reading the Bible and here is a Scripture that is a good one (of course they all are good)..Zechariah 3:1-10 Then he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right side to accuse him. The Lord said to Satan, "The Lord rebuke you, Satan! The Lord, who has chosen Jerusalem, rebuke you! Is not this man a burning stick snatched from the fire?" Now Joshua was dressed in filthy clothes as he stood before the angel. The angel said to those who were standing before him. "Take off his filthy clothes." Then he said to Joshua, "See, I have taken away your sin, and I will put rich garments on you." Then I said, "Put a clean turban on his head." So they put a clean turban on his head and clothed him, while the angel of the Lord stood by. The angel of the Lord gave this charge to Joshua: "This is what the Lord Almighty says: 'If you will walk in my ways and keep my requirements, then you will govern my house and have charge of my coursts, and I will give you a place among these standing here. "Listen, O high priest Joshua and your associates seated before you, who are men symbolic of things to come: I am going to bring my servant, the Branch. See, the stone I have set in front of Joshua! There are seven eyes on that one stone, and I will engrave an inscription on it, says the Lord Almighty, and I will remove the sin of this land in a single day. In that day each of you will invite his neighbor to sit under his vine and fig tree, declares the Lord Almighty." I would like to hear comments as to how this affects our beliefs as far as sin is concerned. Or Grace if you prefer. God Bless you all, Denise | ||
| Dan |
MAX WROTE: ìAny idea that the branch (believer) can be disconnected from the vine (Jesus) and STILL produce good fruit is totally without scriptural merit or support. Just the opposite is the case.î No one here has made any such claim, Max, and you know that. This is not honest discussion ñ to keep representing that I and others are making claims you know very well we are not making. This is a low tactic, and is only used by someone as a desperate attempt to place his or her perceived opponents in a bad light. You have done this several times now over the last few days. And you keep saying that others are openly advocating lawlessness, etc. You open your posts with a statement which implies we have made some wild assertion and you are trying to show us the truth of the matter. But you never state where these wild, obviously ludicrous statements were made or who made them ñ and with good reason, of course, because you made them up yourself. I guess you believe that by throwing out these red herrings you will muddy the water enough to somehow help your position. Here is another example of this: (MAX) ìThe assertion that the true believer does not need the commands of Jesus Christ is unscriptural.î No one made any such assertion and you know that. I would appreciate it if you would not do this anymore. Thank you, Dan | ||
| Max |
Blessings, Dan! | ||
| Patti |
You know, Dan, I have noticed huge irony in speaking with SDAs and others who refuse to believe that Jesus Christ is our full and complete salvation. They tout the necessity of works, and yet they have no compunctions of stretching the truth beyond recognition or resorting to ad hominem tactics to try and prove their points. All this at the same time of proclaiming that their "faith works in love." What is wrong with this picture? | ||
| Max |
Nowhere does Scripture say that good works are not an obligation for the believer who's sins -- past, present and future -- are forever forgiven. Just the opposite. For example, NIV Romans 8:12 Brothers, we have an obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. Blessings to all! | ||
| Patti |
Why do you keep touting our supposed "good works" when you yourself described all of our best works as "used tampons"? | ||
| Bruceh |
Hello Max and Maryannn, I know that I have not been on line latley, but I have been reading the online posts and catching up. It looks like you all are doing a great and I mean great Job on the discusions. Will try to be on line a little more often, to help in the discusions. Bruce Heinrich | ||
| Max |
Nowhere does Scripture bid us to be unaware of good works. Paul, for example, was aware of his own good works. Note: NIV 2 Corinthians 11:5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. 7 Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8 I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9 And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10 As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11 Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12 And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. Blessings! | ||
| Max |
NIV Isaiah 64:6 All of us have become like one who is unclean, and ALL OUR RIGHTEOUS ACTS ARE LIKE FILTHY [used menstruation] RAGS; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. 7 No one calls on your name or strives to lay hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us and made us waste away because of our sins. 8 Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand. 9 Do not be angry beyond measure, O LORD; DO NOT REMEMBER OUR SINS FOREVER. Oh, look upon us, we pray, for we are all your people. And because of the cross he doesn't. He looks upon us and, lo, we ARE indeed his people -- though even our best good works are immesurably sinful. Blessings to all! |
