| Author | Message | ||
| Rayna |
Patti, you did a great job on your post of the "Sermon on the Mount" I am sure that God has accepted it as "fruit" of your faith, your witness of Jesus, because He does not impute sinfulness to it because of your faith in God's gift of Jesus to you. Your post must rise as an offering of thankfulness to God because of your faith in Jesus and belief in God's word. I know you believe that your eternal salvation is complete in Jesus. Thank you Patti for the blessing I have received in reading your post. Your friend, Rayna | ||
| Rayna |
HERE IS THE REFORMATION TEACHING BY MARTIN LUTHER: "We therefore do make this definiton of a Christian, that a Christian is not he which hath no sin, or feeleth no sin, but he to whom God imputeth not his sin because of his faith in Christ." "Because thou believest in me, saith the Lord, and thy faith layeth hold upo Christ, whom I have freely given unto thee that he might be thy mediator and high priest, therefore be thou justified and righteous. Wherefore God doth accept or account us as rightous, only for our faith in Christ." This does not only speak of the beginning of the Christian life but of our whole life on earth until death. Our life is a life of faith in God's word. Martin Luther's Commentary on Galatians" Pages 137, 138 | ||
| Patti |
Maryann wrote: So why do you think we would ever need a COMMAND in order to produce fruit? Just wondering.... Where in Scripture is this COMMAND to produce fruit? | ||
| Patti |
Rayna, You are so right. And I believe it is this last step in the Gospel that is so hard to take: That Jesus Christ is our full and complete righteousness. The SDAs cannot accept that. It goes totally against our grain as willful humans who want to do it our way. And I believe it cannot be "discerned" intellectually or rationally, only through the promptings of the Holy Spirit. God leads us all in His own time, though, and we must allow Him to lead. (But that never means we must stop preaching grace!  Actually, I don't know if I COULD stop!) Remember, blessed are they which hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled. God will reveal His great saving work to those who long to be set right with God (even though falling short). And when believing in Jesus Christ, we are "filled" to overflowing. by faith now, in reality at the consummation. I was talking with a former SDA friend last night and in the course of our conversation we discussed the fact that we former SDAs might be blessed in a way that no one else could really understand (except for Martin Luther!). We strove toward perfection; we worked and worked and worked. How much sweeter grace must seem (I am speculating, of course; I have only come from one angle!) to those who have driven themselves to despair trying to make themselves acceptable to God! How much more we can appreciate the REST and the PEACE that comes from knowing that Jesus Christ is our full and complete salvation; that we could add nothing of value to what He has already done for us. All He asks is that we trust in His merits and in His grace. Sounds easy, but is one of the hardest things to do, especially for those who have been programmed to do "all that the Lord has said."¬ (Please notice that that statement is in quotation marks.) I appreciate your Gospel-centeredness, Rayna. And your kind words. And your companionship. When people have a common trust in the historic saving act of Jesus Christ, they are family in the truest sense of the word. And I am glad to have found a sister in Christ in you. God bless! Patti | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Patti, I didn't remember saying what you said I said, so I found the quote in question. I was quoting to Dan what he said when he addressed to someone else: "By Maryann on Saturday, October 21, 2000 - 01:28 am: Hi Dan, You said: "It is not that the follower of Christ MUST bear fruit, Max, but that he WILL bear fruit. In fact, the follower of Christ cannot prevent himself from bearing fruit. So why do you think we would ever need a COMMAND in order to produce fruit? That would make no sense whatsoever in that a follower of Christ couldn't fail to bear fruit EVEN IF HE WANTED TO! Do you not believe this?" Now that is is understood that I was only asking Dan questions from "HIS quote (that he never responded to)and I NEVER said that, would please address my next question;-)) Patti said: "God leads us all in His own time, though, and we must allow Him to lead. (But that never means we must stop preaching grace!" Can you identify the place where Colleen, Max or myself have stopped "preaching grace?" I really would like to see where it is! I have yet to see it! Am I blind???? The whole thrust of anything that the three of us have posted is that we are "SAVED BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE PLUS NOTHING!" We just don't STOP there!!!!! We have maintained that TOTALLY APART FROM AND SEPERATE FROM OUR SALVATION is growth!?!?!!! I don't think you will find one place where we have said that any "fruits of the Spirit," "Christian walk," "good deeds etc" do EVEN ONE IOTA for our salvation! You are constantly talking about how the SDA's are proclaiming "GRACE PLUS WORKS" and the context and tone seem to be indicating that we are INCLUDED in the SDA's touting "GRACE PLUS WORKS!" If you can't back up your accusations DON'T accuse! PLEASE!;-) This is a public forum that is primarily for the benifit of SDA's coming out etc. The unfounded accusations that have been tossed so readily are confounding many readers. I have gotten e-mail from those wondering why you, Rayna and Dan are barking at things WE NEVER SAID! In particular, the antagonistic attitude of Rayna and Dan is of concern. And the unwillingness of all three of you to NOT show the place we stated "GRACE PLUS WORKS" and continue to badger us, then refuse to answer specific questions. I'm just telling you what the concerns of some very concerned people are. I don't think you are touting lawlessness. I do think that since "we" are saying that "fruits of the Spirit are a RESULT of our SALVATION BY GRACE AND GRACE ALONE, you are tipping the scale the other way and putting little importance to vocalizing and living the CHRISTIAN LIFE! Please tell me how you see it if it is not like what I said! WHAT EVER THE CASE, NEVER QUIT PROCLAIMING THE GOSPEL OF JESUS AND THE COMPLETE AND FINISHED WORK HE DID AND THAT IT IS OURS BY SIMPLY BELIEVING! You dooooo, do that so well;-)) This is God's wagon, we are the mules, let's pull together from the same end in the same direction. I'd love to discuss this e-mail if you want too. All the above ment in the interest of furthering the good news of salvation by grace and grace alone! And thanking God for changing lives...Maryann | ||
| Rayna |
Well, I truly think I have stated that I believe in the Christian life and "good works" because our sinfulness is not imputed to them. Therefore, God accepts them as offerings of thankfulness for the wonderful completed gift of salvation given to us in Jesus. I do not talk about what I do as I feel it has no benefit toward my salvation, but it is actually what I should do in response to what God has done for me. But it is so imperfect and always will be that I feel it is not important. God alone receives my offerings of thankfulness, as it is meant for him alone. I also truly believe that the devil lays in wait for those that teach the true gospel and attempts to cause trouble in their lives to distract them from preaching the gospel. That happened once in my life, it will not happen again with His help. God will handle all my problems and enemies. Please don't read this as meaning anyone on this forum, because that is not my intention. I am truly thankful for the opportunity to witness for my faith on this site. Actually I think you all are reading things into my posts that are not there. I am thankful for God's mercy to me in the gift of Jesus and the imputation of His righteousness that I may come before Him at any time and be accepted of Him. I also know He is there for me throughout my life and even unto death. I trust in His merits before God for me. I cannot explain how thankful I am for His wonderful love that has been given freely to me in Jesus. I cannot comprehend it, but thank Him daily. You are all entitled to what you believe. I am just posting my belief. Thank you. | ||
| Billthompson |
Maryann, I was just lurking here, when I saw your call for "mules"...well, I just thought I'd answer the call. Hitch me up! As far as the tone of these discussions go, I myself am always delighted when a fellow Christian from my church or elsewhere tells me they believe I have this or that spritual gift and say how blessed they have been by this or that fruit of the Spirit exhibited in my life. Those comments really bless and encourage me. Again, these heart felt comments are very welcome. What is not welcome are negative "fruit inspectors", usually people who do not even know me, who presume to tell me whether I am producing the flavour of fruit they prefer, in the color they like, etc. I guess my SDA past contributes to some degree, to this dislike of the "fruit inspectors"...a.k.a. "Pharisees". To clarify, though, I have found very few of those "fruit inspectors" here on this forum, not among the regulars, anyway. There is the occassional current, zealous SDA who swoops in here to not just inspect, but thoroughly condemn any fruit produced on the wrong day of the week (if you read my code). Perhaps, some of us formers are a little sensative to the intentions and ways of the "fruit inspectors". A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Bless you, Maryann! You are absolutely right, "It is not that the follower of Christ MUST bear fruit, but that he WILL bear fruit!" Under real grace alone, Max of the Cross | ||
| Rayna |
The gospel is not about the fruit of the Spirit in our lives. That is not the gospel.!!!!! The gospel is the revelation of Jesus and what God has given us in Him. I know this is hard to see, and it is easy to focus on what one considers his works and fruits. That is human nature. It is not easy to give up our ego and just plain old trust in the love, mercy and gift of God realizing that our fruits have nothing to do with our justification before Him. Actually, I think people cannot accept it. But it is a gift of which we had no part. It is completed. It was finished at Calvary!!! Our works add nothing to the gospel, so I cannot get excited about them. The gospel is exciting and it is incomprehensible to think that Jesus was willing to come to this earth and endure shame, humilitation, and untold mental anguish and physical suffering for no other reason but to take my place that I may have eternal life and be accepted of God in Him even though I am a sinner. It is unbelievable!! And to think He is in heaven for me today, offering up His righteousness that I may be declared righteous, perfect and complete in Him. I feel so privileged to be able to come into God's presence in Jesus name, even though I am a sinner. My justification before God is by faith alone in His word. And I have eternal life!!! It is beyond my thinking. I will delight in His love forever and thank Him for the wonderful gift of Jesus someday in Heaven, and thank Jesus that he was willing to undergo all this suffering for me. When I look to myself, I see nothing but sin, but feel so honored to be a child of God. I feel humbled by so wonderful a gift. How can anyone rejoice in anything greater?? | ||
| Max |
Maryann, You are also correct in these views: 1. As a result of real grace we do our best to live in neither open sin nor secret sin. 2. The gospel is not obtained by obedience to Christ's Commandments, but we do obey them because of the gospel. Blessings! | ||
| Billthompson |
Max, I really like you and agree with most, if not all the points you make in your posts. Where you are meeting resistance is in the "tone" of some of your responces, such as the way you signed off "Under real grace alone," as though you have set yourself up as the judge of who on this forum is under "real grace" and who is under "false grace". This is the "fruit inspector" concept I mentioned above. I doubt you intended to sound that way since you truly seem "grace oriented" but you must understand that many people here have been hurt by judgemental "fruit inspectors" in the past, who thought they were doing a great service by making people doubt their salvation, and live in fear of an "investigative judgement" where their "fruit" would be carefully inspected. We all know (don't we?) that our fruit is not perfect without Christ. He makes the difference. That is why many here (myself included) plead the blood of Christ when a "fruit inspector" comes storming in demanding to see our "fruit"...yes, indeed, we plead the blood of Christ alone. Of course we want to be a good witness for Christ, but we need the support of brothers and sisters in Christ in this effort, not judgement and condemnation...not that you personally seek to condemn anyone. Just please be sensative to the hurting people here who have war stories about "fruit inspectors". A Sinner Saved By Grace Alone, Bill Thompson | ||
| Max |
Greetings Bill, Yes, I do apologize if the tone of any of my statements about real grace has offended anyone. I cannot apologize for using the term "real grace," though, for it emphasizes the truth that there is a false grace -- one that led to the "Christian" atrocities of Germany in the 30s and 40s. The threat is real, and it existed in New Testament times. See 1 John. I also need to point out that there is a powerful tendency among those who have come out of any cult to go from the ditch on one side of the road to the ditch on the other side. I know, because I've been there and done that. Finally, I need to deliver a post to you that I have already posted to Lori: Of course we already know that Jesus is God. Now, by Scripture alone, we need to expand our ideas of what the relationship is between God the Father and God the Son. 1.The Son is the IMAGE of the Father. NIV COLOSSIANS 1:15. ì[Our Lord Jesus Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.î NIV 2 CORINTHIANS 2:4. ìChrist ... is the image of God.î 2. He is the HUMAN LIKENESS of the Father in SERVANT FORM. PHILIPPIANS 2:6-7. ì[Christ Jesus], being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking on the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.î 3. He was the LIGHT of the Father illuminating earth. NIV JOHN 12:45-56. ìWhen [a man] looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. I have come into the world as a light....î 4. ALL THE FULLNESS of the Father (as well as of the Holy Spirit) dwelt in him. NIV Colossians 2:9. "In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form." 5. He is the RADIANCE and the EXACT REPRESENTATION of the Father NIV HEBREWS 1:1-3. ìIn the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets [for example, Moses giving the Ten Commandments], but in these last days [69 AD] he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of Godís glory and the exact representation of his being.î 6. The Father did HIS WORK through the Son. NIV JOHN 14:9-10. ìAnyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ëShow us the Fatherí? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.î 8. He even bore the Father's NAME. NIV ISAIAH 9:6. ìHe [the son to be born] will be called ... Everlasting Father....î CONCLUSION The point, Bill, is that our friends the Adventists are using Ellen White's statement that the Ten Commandments (and other Old Testament laws) are the "transcript of God's character" to enforce Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, ham-shunning, jewelry-shunning, wine-shunning and people-shunning (SDA remnant doctrine) behaviors. And, believe me, they would include circumcizing also if Paul had not spoken out so adamantly against it! But nowhere in Scripture is the idea that the Ten Commandments (and the other Old Testament laws) are "the transcript of God's character." Scripture makes a very different case, as we have seen in the eight texts above (and others). The case that Scripture makes is that the Ten Commandments (and other OT laws) are NOT the transcript of God's character. They are nothing more than imperfect, incomplete and temporary SHADOWS pointing the the perfect, complete and eternal spiritual reality of Jesus Christ and His Commandments. In Scripture the closest we can come to the prhase "transcript of God's character" is the phrase "exact representation of his being." Now I have nothing against Jesus Christ on earth being the "transcript of God's character" in human flesh, although I prefer the scriptural phrase "exact representation of his being." So if Christ -- not the Ten Commandments -- is "the transcript of God's character," then we should look to Christ's Commandments rather than the Ten Commandments (and other OT laws) for guidance in our believer's life of loving obedience to God. For nowhere in the Commandments of Jesus are found Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, ham-shunning, jewelry-shunning, wine-shunning, people-shunning (SDA remnant teaching) and circumcizing behaviors! Therefore, if the Ten Commandments (and other OT laws) do not completely, perfectly and eternally represent God the Father, then we should look to Christ rather than to them. And if Jesus Christ and his Commandments do represent "the transcript of God's character," then Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, ham-shunning, jewelry-shunning, wine-shunning, people-shunning (remnantizing), and circumcizing behaviors are simply not on the true believer's obedience list. Many Adventists know they are in bondage and may well be open to receiving this truth. But being unaware of this truth, they accuse us (FAF and other Christ followers) of doing away with God's moral law. And then, they say, "You can go out and do anything you want," meaning lawless behavior and the casting off of all moral restraint. They need to be convinced by Scripture alone that since Christ came, all lawful behavior and all moral restraint are exactly and permanently contained in Christ and His Commandments. These the Holy Spirit has written on our hearts. And we show them by our loving behaviors toward one another. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
THERE IS NO FALSE GRACE. Grace is God's mercy to undeserving sinners. | ||
| Max |
"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" Romans 6:1-2 NIV. | ||
| Rayna |
We are sinners Max, always will be, we are just forgiven sinners. Who said we want to live in open sin?? Not me!!! I believe in a Christian life, but we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God and actually sin daily because we still fall short. I don't think anyone on here that testifies of the true gospel condones living in open sin. We are all sinners accepted by God's mercy in Jesus and yes, our fruits or works are sinful too. But this sinfulness is forgiven. We have secret pride, selfishness, self centeredness in all our works. It will remain this way, that leads us to Jesus as our righteousness always before God. | ||
| Max |
NIV 2 Corinthians 5:17 If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. | ||
| Rayna |
God gave the gift of His Son to our world. He supplied the lamb that took away the sin of the world. Jesus is the Lamb, the sacrifice, that we bring to God for our acceptance, as we are sinners. Jesus came to testify of God, to teach us of the love of God for sinners. This is the gospel, the revelation of Jesus. The Holy Spirit always speaks of Jesus and testifies of Him. He does not speak of Himself. So we are not to speak of ourselves, but testify of Jesus. We are not to preach ourselves, but our testimony should be of Jesus. Jesus dwells in our hearts ONLY BY FAITH, by the Holy Spirit. But we are still sinners and need the forgiveness and mercy of God. The Holy Spirit helps us to keep our eyes on Jesus and the great gift of God to us in Him. We are not to look to ourselves or our works, as we are sinners. This is the work of the Holy Spirit. But this is not the gospel!!!!!!!!!!! This is the result of believing the gospel. We are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe the gospel of the completed work of God for us in Jesus. We need to continually look to God's work for us in Jesus. Also the work of the Holy Spirit is to convict of sin and the need of the imputed righteousness of Jesus. We can continually grow in the knowledge of the love of God. It is magnificent and unrepeatable. | ||
| Rayna |
You missed something Max. We become the righteousness of God in HIM!!!!! And Jesus is in Heaven. We see Him only by faith. Faith is believing in what you canot see. Jesus is in heaven for us mediating His righteousness for us that we may be accepted of God as sinners. | ||
| Patti |
If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! Good point. ALL THINGS HAVE BECOME NEW. Not ARE BECOMING new. There is no New Testament doctrine of Christian maturity. We are either in Christ or we are not. We can claim a life of perfect righteousness or we stand in our own filthy rags. 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: Again, PAST TENSE. We are RECONCILED to God. 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. The main role of the Holy Spirit is to convince us of the worth of Jesus Christ, to fill us with faith in order to believe, and to impel us to tell others of the great saving act of Jesus Christ. We have a mission! We must tell a dying world that their full salvation has been accomplished in Jesus Christ. Our testimony is to the perfection of the Lamb, never to our own experience. How puny our own spiritual status is in comparison to the great salvation that is ours in Jesus Christ! Cont... We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. BELIEVE! Accept the gift so abundantly given. JESUS CHRIST HAS RECONCILED US TO GOD! 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. Unfathomable love! Unmatchable grace! He took on Himself the sin of the world, providing full propitiation for our sin, so that we might stand spotless before God, clad in the very righteousness that Christ earned for us on this earth! What a marvelous text! Thank you for posting it. Who can truly fathom the great mystery of the love of God?! I cannot. All I can do is trust that He is worthy and will keep His promises to me, and to all who believe. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
NIV John 21:14 This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead. 15 When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?" "Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my lambs." 16 Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?" He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep." 17 The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?" Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you." Jesus said, "Feed my sheep." |
