| Author | Message | ||
| Ray |
God determined to purify the world by a flood, but in mercy and love He gave the antediluvians a probation of 120 yrs. During this time, while the ark was in building, the voices of Noah, Enoch, and many others were heard in warning and entreaty. And every blow struck on the ark was a warning message. The Australasian union Conference Record, Sept. 15, 1902. Enoch 1st. received instruction from Noah, and he observed the law of God, and served him with singleness of heart. Review and Herald, April 29, 1875. All of this may sound well and good but Enoch was translated to Heaven nearly 70 yrs. before Noah was born! Noah did not start building the ark until at least 1536AM, nearly 550 yrs. after Enoch had been translated . Now how is it possible for Enoch to have preached and entreated people along with Noah while the ark was in the process of being built? More proof that EGW is a false prophet. {"False PROFIT>" Ray Pitts | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Ray! How are you doing? Good to see you. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Ray |
Did Ellen G. White practice necromancy? (Talking to the Dead), in this case Her dead Husband, taking his advice, and proclaiming it all "from the Lord!" You be the judge. Go to http://www.ellenwhite.org/egw61.htm to get the facts. | ||
| Ray |
How to order Books telling the truth about Ellen G. White. 1. White Out, by Dirk Anderson 2. Prophetess of Health, by Dr. Ronald Numbers 3. Life of Mrs. EGW, Her Claims Refuted, by D. M. Canright 4 The White Lie, by Walter Rea 5. White Washed, by Pastor Sydney Cleveland Go to the following web page and place your order. I noticed that some would like to know where to find these books. http://www.ellenwhite.org/order.htm | ||
| Dan_2 |
Thanks for the welcome Max! I noticed in my quote of the song "The Boxer" that I used the words "beliefs" instead of "believes" if that helps anyone who read my email. By the way, any time someone (as myself) has left the Adventist Church (especially ministers as I was) they "write us off" as leaving the "truth." I am not in any way bashing Adventist people, but as a former pastor I have seen and heard things in that denomination that the "outside Christian community" never hears. The book, "Toxic Faith" really opened my eyes to what had concerned me for years. Anyway, again, my church email address is dan@mtnparkchurch.org I am more than willing to help anyone who is seriously questioning the Adventist faith. Also, anyone leaving the denomination will experience some very difficult times. You will lose your friends (I lost Adventist friends I had known since I was a teenager)and experience a lot of pain from being "cut off." However, the joy from leaving the bondage of this legalistic faith is more than worth the journey. Thanks again Max! --Dan S. | ||
| Shereen |
Dan, Is that book you talked about - Toxic Faith, By Stephen Arterburn and Jack Felton. Is this the correct one? | ||
| Max |
Hi Dan, Simon and Garfunkle's song "The Boxer" is one of my all-time favorites: "Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest" is so true to the human condition. Thanks for your testimony about being shunned by SDA friends of many years standing upon leaving the old denom. It fits that of so many others who have posted here. Did you read the article in MINISTRY October 2000 about the study Bynum and Clark did on SDA ministers leaving? Some left of their own volition or were forced out; others were dismissed outright. Bynum and Clark did not tell us which. I wonder why. Blessings, Max | ||
| Delstar |
Dan S. That book was recommended to me by a pastor over in Idaho some time ago. I purchased two copies...one for myself and one for my dyed in the wool legalistic 50 year Adventist Mother. Of course I had to give it to my Mother before I read it....dumb move!! She had fits!! "You can NEVER, NEVER get enough religion to be toxic" and things of that nature. As to my personal use, my husband and I looked it over, realized that it was not backed up Biblically and set it back on the shelf. Fast forward a few years.....One day my husband picked up the book and scanned through it. He said "Honey, have you read this book? It's a really good one I think you would enjoy." No, its thoughts are not backed up by the Bible but then, neither are my thoughts posted here. | ||
| Bob |
Dan_2: Today I tried to send you an email at the address you posted above, but it came back to me as undeliverable. What's up with that? | ||
| Dan_2 |
Bob, sorry you had trouble getting my email address. I have received 3 emails from Adventist looking for help. Please give it another try. dan@mtnparkchurch.org A good friend of mine (and former SDA pastor) has the only ministry I know of, for reaching Adventists who are looking for a way out or for answers to their questions; www.sdaoutreach.org He has spent countless hours and money to help those looking for answers. Finally, you know what is really "working" for me after 7 years of theological studies (college/seminary) and countless seminars, books, study groups, etc.? Man, it's just keeping it simple (not that anyone on this site isn't). Loving God, living in His grace, remaining faithful through the power of the Holy Spirit, seeking forgiveness when I blow it, and loving others. The books by Max Lucado have really spoken to my heart these past 2 years. I appreciate the spirit and desire I read in your emails to serve the Lord with all your hearts! Dan_2 | ||
| Dan_2 |
Yes, Sherren, that is the book that was a big help to me in understanding the toxic beliefs in my former Adventist faith. It wasn't written for Adventist, but the issues spoke so clearly to Adventism, that when 3 other pastor friends of mine read it (and I didn't tell them why to read it) they all told me, "Do you realize that this speaks to the denomination we are pastors of?" There is no "7 day a week rest" for those in toxic faith belief systems. And not to just "pick" on the Adventist, there are elements of toxic faith in many denominations. Dan_2 | ||
| Richardjr |
Dan 2, I have visited some sda churches in the Portland OR area where the pastors are trying to make them grace centered. Is this a futile exercise? Could this be a way in which the pastor sensing there must be something wrong, justifies his/her continued employment? Is there any church in the sda denom, which could be truly gospel centered? Richardjr | ||
| Max |
Patti, Ray, Dan, Shereen, Delstar, Richard, Bob, Chyna, Cas, Rayna, ... , and any I may have missed, God bless you all! It's been sheer delight trading Scriptures with you! Max of the Cross | ||
| Dan_2 |
Richard, I believe that you are right on with your observation concerning "grace centered" SDA Churches in the Portland, Oregon area. Hey, this is where I lived and served as an Adventist pastor! Without judging anyone for their motives in have more grace centered SDA Churches, it's only possible to do so for a short period of time, before all "hell" breaks out. I've seen more times than you can imagine. You have no idea the "fear" such pastors work in concerning their employment. They have a very difficult task with ministering with grace and SDA theology. I hurt for them. I know "them" personally. What drives so many SDA pastors such as these who would leave in a heart beat, but don't is this; "Where and with whom would I continue to pastor?" Only a few former SDA pastors end up pastoring in other denominations/community churches. It's very difficult to "shake" the SDA past and rightly so, the Christian community is concerned about anyone who is a former SDA pastor. Somehow (by the grace of God) I was able to make that transition. Anyway, keep in touch! God is and will continue to minister/support people through this web site. As a former SDA, you have no idea how hard it is to leave. --Dan | ||
| Dale |
You are a great witness, Dan. I just returned from Portland yesterday to Denver where I live. The trip wasn't the greatest as we buried my brother there on Monday. The service was in the Sandy SDA church. After the service, I thanked the SDA pastor for his message and he asked me if I was a Christian with hope in the hereafter. Of course I answered yes and was somewhat surprised that I was being asked if I was a Christian rather than being asked if I was an Adventist! I find great joy in being known simply as a Christian!!! Dale | ||
| Dale |
2nd message.... I agree with what you mentioned about the difficulty grace oriented SDA pastors have in dealing with their own beliefs versus those of the heirarchy. I have known many, including a close personal friend who would probably leave except they still need to support their families. It is especially difficult when a pastor is getting close to retirement and cannot really start all over again. Having given their lives to pastoring, there just aren't a lot of other options open. Dale | ||
| Patti |
Dale, My sincerest condolences. May God comfort you and all of your family with the cloak of His faithfulness to save all who believe on Him. There are better things awaiting those who are in Christ. God bless. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dale, I'm sorry that you lost your brother in this life. May God grant you serenity and peace, Denise | ||
| Colleentinker |
Dale, I'm sorry about your brother. Thanks for sharing that with us so we can pray for your family. RichardJr, your comments/ questions about Adventist pastors being grace-oriented is interesting. Dan2 knows about this subject first hand, and I defer to his observations. But I can tell you that I reported in Adventist Today on several SDA pastors who were fired within an 18-month period, including Clay Peck and Richard Fredericks. The majority of the pastors on whom I reported were from the Pacific Northwest, and every one of them had deep, irreconcilable differences with Adventist theology. They all believed in salvation by grace and rejected the Adventist distinctives. Some were more charismatic than others. Some were simply preaching grace and security in Jesus and found themselves at odds with the conferences and/or unions. Ultimately, I'm convinced that a person who discovers grace and security in Jesus really can't continue working for the church--or maybe even staying in the church--without great internal compromise and anxiety. Either one dulls his/her consicence because he can't admit the depth of the deception that birthed the church, or he/she finally leaves. Richard and I ultimately left because we couldn't model integrity to our boys and remain in a church we believed was based on a lie. It was the hardest thing I've ever done besides go through a divorce. In fact, the two felt very much the same. Jesus said the truth would set us free. That is absolutely true. God doesn't call us to himself, ask us to give up every identity besides him, and then leave us friendless, family-less, and alone. He redeems the years the locusts ate, and he redeems everything in our lives we submit to him. It's the hardest thing in the world to admit that I might have to put a permanent rift between myself and my family and friends, not to mention stripping myself of everything that gives me my identity. But I have to say that the love and faithfulness of Jesus when I finally decided that I had to give everything up was completely unexpected and is still an ongoing epiphany. Yes, there are great struggles and sadnesses. Yes, there is spiritual attack. Yes, there is shunning and ignoring. But yes, there are believers God has brought into my life that have filled the void that existed in my heart even before I left the church. I had no idea that the "community" I felt in Adventism was as much of a deception as is the rest of the SDA culture and beliefs. There are "grace-oreinted" pastors in this area too. But they are still Adventist. And as long as they are, they are limited in what they can actually preach. They can't take their faith to the place a growing relationship with Jeuss takes one as long as they're locked into the church. I praise God for holding us up as we walk toward him in truth. Colleen | ||
| Richardjr |
Colleen, Thank you for your observations. I agree with your words "with great internal anxiety and compromise;" and "dulls his/her conscience." The longer I remained as a pastor in the SDA church the more I felt these emotions. I have replaced those feelings with feelings of rootlessness and restlessness. But thats because I have not found a home church. I believe in God's sovereignity, and in His timing that He will find me a home. Dan 2, thank you for your comments as well. You were right on with your perceptions. I found much common ground between your experience and mine. Richardjr |
