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Max
Posted on Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 12:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When the renowned theologian Karl Barth
was asked once what was the greatest truth
he had discovered in all his studies, he
replied:

"Jesus loves me, this I know,
for the Bible tells me so."

Personally, I'd tell that to a newborn, get right
in his face, smile big, kiss his forehead or his
tummy, tickle the bottoms of his feet and say
exactly what Dr. Barth said: Tell him the same
thing every day till he started saying it back!

Brainwashing? What do you think?

Max of the Cross
Shereen
Posted on Friday, November 17, 2000 - 6:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Has anyone heard of the Calvary Community Church? I am looking for a place to fit in but find I am afraid to go anywhere. I am searching the net but I know that if you look up SDA you would think you found the right church. If anyone has had dealings with or know anything about Calvary Community Church would you please enlighten me. I feel so stupid being a grown woman and all and then being afraid to make a decision about which church to try. I guess the adventist experience has caused the once burnt twice shy syndrome in me.

Shereen
Jtree
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 2:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I have! Calvary Community Church. What you want to know about it?

Pastor Martin is part of the Adventist Outreach Ministry.

http://www.sdaoutreach.org

Here is the LINK to it:

http://www.calvarychapel.com/phoenix/

This is the ONLINE sermon section.

http://www2.oneplace.com/Ministries/Grace_Upon_Grace/Default.asp

"We at Calvary Community Church at
Calvary Chapel located in Northwest Phoenix,
Arizona. We are a fellowship of believers
whose greatest desire is to worship and magnify
our Lord Jesus Christ and be conformed to His
image through the work of the Holy Spirit."
Cindy
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joshua, Thanks for reminding us (and our lurkers, here!) of the www.sdaoutreach.org site. I hadn't visited it for a few months...

Mark Martin has a wealth of information there to read; and some to even access with realaudio... A lot there to challenge the "remnant-truth" mindset of Adventism...

Grace always,
Cindy
Cas
Posted on Saturday, November 18, 2000 - 11:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,
You are not alone with the fear of going to another church. I have not been to church in about a year now. I don't know why I am so hesitant (almost fearful) of going to another church, especially a "Sunday" Church.
Several of the people from my daughters school go to the Grace Baptist Church and I am wondering if I can get up the nerve to go.
I guess it is fear of something different. Growing up we are taught Sunday keeping is the "Mark", and that just does something to your head even if you don't believe it anymore.
I hope I can work through this someday.
God Bless you Shereen as well as other on this forum.
~CAS~
Billtwisse
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 2:39 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is 'finding a new church' our primary obsession? Although we should 'go to church' to ally ourselves with the larger body of Christ, is participation in and allegiance with churchianity our main purpose in this world?

If men/women were more interested in gospel truth than in church, we would see a revival of the apostolic kerygma that has not been witnessed since the Reformation.

The NT assembly and its passion for the gospel was a far cry from what is defined as 'church' today.

Last weekend, I attended a service at the largest Evangelical Free church (many thousand in membership) in the metro area where I reside. In his sermon, the pastor equated those who want to make an issue of the 'hypostatic union' (Christ as fully God and fully man) and the 'peccability/impeccability issue' (Christ as having an impulse to sin vs. not able to sin) as the modern equivalents of those who Paul said were obsessed with foolish philosophy. Brethren, we are in serious trouble today. The true gospel is not the passion of the churches.

A few weeks ago at Grace Community Church in Sun Valley, CA (I was in attendance), John MacArthur said it well: "the current movement away from the gospel in evangelicalism and the ministries of prominent evangelicals such as Billy Graham is nothing but the work of Satan."

--Twisse
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, are so saying that Billy Graham has moved away from the gospel? On what do you base that statement?
Lydell
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 3:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, are you saying that Billy Graham has moved away from the gospel? On what do you base that statement?
Max
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Bill,

Thank you for sharing. I sense your deep love
of Christ and the gospel -- "by one sacrifice he
has made perfect forever those who are being
made holy" (NIV Hebrews 10:14).

I too have difficulty relating to becoming a
member of any denomination. I have nothing
against any denomination, as long as it does
not claim exclusivity to being "the true church"
or to "having the truth" -- that unscriptural
expression that sets my teeth on edge.

I have been attending an Evangelical Free
Church congregation regularly for over a year
now, but I cannot bring myself to join. I cannot
accept their doctrine of inerrancy. But I have no
problem with the preaching of pastor Gary
Inrig. He is extremely gospel oriented and
driven. In every sermon there is an invitation to
break down in openness at the foot of the
cross. I would love to have you join me in
service at Trinity on December 10 at 9:30A.

(If you can make it: You had said there was a
possibility that you could be in Redlands to
attend FAF meeting Friday night at 6:30P at
Trinity's fellowship hall. You can e-mail me at
judetheobscure59@hotmail.com.)

You could join me for Sunday fellowship
dinner with the Tinkers and other FAFers. To
be able to converse with you in person would
be a great joy to me and I'm sure to the rest as
well.

There is much to discuss. And many new
people for you to meet.

Max of the Cross
Maryann
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 8:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Bill,

Wow!;-)) It would be great to see you. You know, see the person behind the name:-}} I'm sure a few others feel the same way!

Maryann
Billtwisse
Posted on Saturday, November 25, 2000 - 10:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To Lydell (first of all):

MacArthur was basing his condemnation of Billy Graham's current stance on actual statements of heresy made by Graham in recent years. These were quoted in detail in the message. Most importantly, Graham has said that all religions contain true believers and saved Christians are found in all (Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.--most of these religions have been identified in particular). This confession of belief aligns Graham with the Pope--who has stated on numerous occassions that Christians, Jews, and Muslims worship the same God.

It is interesting to note that in a letter written by BGEA staff in response to inquiries regarding this phenomenon, the outrageous claim was made that Dr. Graham's position has not changed on this issue in all the years of his ministry. Hogwash!

Graham has taken the same 'pilgramage' on this issue as C.S. Lewis--whom he is so fond of quoting. Many critics of Lewis are convinced that he ended up a convicted and passionate universalist before his death. I agree! Lewis ended up denying substitutionary atonement and many other historic Christian doctrines.

The list of historically sound Christian scholars--currently headed in Graham's direction--is too large for comfort! Hopefully, they will not end up shmoosing with Clinton and Gore like Billy! The more theology moves toward universalism, the greater its passion becomes for socialism as opposed to affirming the unique value, worth, and contribution of each individual in society. Always, always, always! I would cite Karl Barth as a good example of this (also, some other well-known associates of ours in current times).

Max:

Inerrancy is partially a semantical issue; we could get into the reasoning behind it. Anyway, there are many gospel teachers in a good number of the denominations. The bulk of the sermon that I mentioned in my above post was excellent-- but the pastor certainly got in his digs against the 'cerebral troublemakers' who want to make an issue of historical theology. If it is any consolation, I'm going back to the same place for services tomorrow!

I will e-mail you privately on the matter of joining you all on Dec. 10. If nothing else comes up, it looks like an open weekend for me in CA at present.

--Twisse
Lorinc
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 6:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill Twisse,

Hi! You asked, "Why is 'finding a new church' our primary obsession? "

I certainly wouldn't characterize 'finding a new church' as the 'primary obsession' on this forum; however, if you intentionally go and start reading a thread entitled, 'Finding a New Church', what subject would you *expect* to find most people talking about? :-)

You also wrote, "If men/women were more interested in gospel truth than in church, we would see a revival of the apostolic kerygma that has not been witnessed since the Reformation."

I will try to address your question from my own perspective/situation. I am not a theologian. I do not want to be one. I do not know what 'kerygma' means. I would have guessed that a 'hypostatic union' had something to do with fluid dynamics, if you hadn't defined it in your posting. :-)

I am very concerned with finding a new church for the following reasons:

1. Scripture tells us to "forsake not the assembling of yourselves together." I know that, with my personality type, I would be very likely to do just that -- hence I'm one of the ones for whom Paul wrote that warning.

2. I have two young children. Although we have daily family worship together, I also want my girls to hear the gospel from other lips than mine and my wife's. I want them to have other Christian preschoolers to play with. I want them to meet some teenage young women who love Jesus, who can be mentors, role models, etc.

3. Those who have been in Adventism know that it's more than a denomination, it's a complete sub-culture. Pulling away and leaving it creates a huge void, in terms of fellowship, mutual encouragement, etc -- especially when your SDA friends aren't exactly sure how to relate to you anymore.

But finding a new place for your family to worship when you're still steeped in SDA culture is challenging. As Shereen has mentioned, one doesn't want to repeat the mistakes of the past, and get in with another group who will lead you down another garden path, so to speak. Hence, several of us posting here, comparing notes on our church-hunting experiences.

Your concern seems to be identifying and purging the church of perceived heresies. My concern is much more mundane. But it's not about finding the 'true church' or the 'best denomination' -- it's simply about finding a godly congregation of friendly people, where we can go to hear some gospel-centered teaching from the Bible, meet some nice people, and have an opportunity to apply our talents and be of service.

Not an obsession -- but vitally important, I would say!

God Bless,
Lorin
Valm
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 9:30 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lorin, You touched on three critical points of why it is important for former sdas to find a new church home. I share all three of them as well as the concern Shereen expressed on getting burnt again. It is essential that we support one another in this endeavour.

This can be a complex process for many as it isn't just about what's true but is also about overcoming the psychological trauma toxic faith put us through. For some the anxiety might be so intense that just going to a church for a wedding or funeral can be difficult.

The Bible teaches us the wonderful message of grace. Some are able to grasp that truth easier than others as they exit the Adventisit church.. I am thankful for them. Others have a different type of journey and need assistance in these matters. There are very deep layers of conditioning that must be overcome and as a former Adventist community we need to help them and each other.

Some may not need a church community. I do not criticize them, they are taking a different journey and have different needs.

For me it is critical to come together with a group of people both spritually and socially. My children need a church home to receive spritual nuturing outside of myself. They also need a social structure to keep them through those turbulent adolescent years.

So count me in as one that also has these mundane concerns. And for those of you who do not, I am thankful that you don't.

Valerie
Lydell
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bill, oh I see. Your comments were based on what someone said Graham said because of a handful of quotes.

Interesting thing about quotes. It's quite possible to contrive almost any charge by carefully picking and choosing what is reported.

Sorry if I don't jump on the bandwagon there. It seems to me that it can only profit Christians to always keep in mind the equity of character of the person being quoted. Billy Graham's has always been to faithfully uphold salvation as being only through Jesus Christ. His life has been given to serving his Lord.
Chyna
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 7:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dear bill,

i have to agree. finding a church is very important to a believer's life. in fact it was a john macarthur sermon i was listening to that was saying that believers, often times in pain will pull away and isolate themselves, but that is the exact opposite of what the bible teaches us.

not that i can remember precisely since it was back in high school i joined my baptist church, i attended a class for people that wanted to join the church, they gave an excellent well founded presentation on how joining a church body is biblical and necessary for growth.

like previous posters have said, to not forsake the assembling together is very important. also, without a church, how can we serve one another? the model of the early church is our guide. they were taking care of each other and those in the community, they supported widows and orphans. they were doing God's work. how is that accomplished? by God's people working together. what is more important than having solid christian friends to encourage you and uplift you in troublesome times. I still attend sunday school, and I am continually learning about God, our understanding of Him grows deeper and deeper as we grow.

we do not all have the time, resources or talent to be able to study at seminary, but churches provide leaders, deacons (it's all there in the bible) teachers to guide us.

Christianity is very much a community based culture. the bible tells us that we are members of the body of Christ: does the eye say to the ear, I do not need you? if one part of the body suffers, does not the whole body suffer?

in other words the church is people, the church is not a denomination or a building, or a location. i was reading today about how we are brick of the holy temple. where does God dwell now? in us. but we are bricks of a holy temple built on the cornerstone of Jesus Christ.

the teacher also pointed a cool thing that we are founded on the faithful ones who have gone on before us. think about what a great tradition that is! to be resting on the faith that was the faith of Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Israel, David, Elijah, Matthew, Paul, Peter, James, Rahab, the early dynamic church that was persecuted, and all the great men and women of faith that were before us. how awesome is that?

an answer I get from some isolated Christians is that they do not trust "organized religion" yet it is organization that helps the church function, whether in teaching, or exhorting, or encouraging, or serving.

I started up a nonprofit group at my college. the idea started in me, but I soon grabbed my closest friends to jump on the bandwagon to help out. could I have run it alone? I did for awhile, but what was the point in bearing the whole workload? and by including my friends, they got to be included in the wonderful results of helping other people.

if we go off by ourselves saying we disdain "church" (referring to buildings or denominations) we are saying we don't want to follow the Scriptures. that we have a better way to do things than the model set before us by the early church.

anyway, committing yourself to a church is the best way to understand why it's so wonderful. max, i'm sorry you have not felt moved to join a church, or the church you are attending. in some way you are letting the SDAism of your background control you in the present day by maybe your fear or mistrust in committing yourself to a church.

pray that God will place you where you are supposed to be :).

love, Chyna
Denisegilmore
Posted on Sunday, November 26, 2000 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will add my thoughts to this topic. Currently I am not attending any Church. I haven't for almost 6 months but recently have felt the need to be around like minded people. Although I plan to attend a Church a week from today, I have no intentions of becoming a member of any denomination. I feel as though I'm already a member of the Church. I'm part of the body.
As far as upholding others, learning from others, helping others et-cetera, I can do that from where I'm at and in the location I'm at as well. But, like I've stated, it recently has become a desire to walk back into a Church building and fellowship with like minded folks. I'm hoping to find like minded folks in that building anyway. So far in my experience, I tend to always stick out like a sore thumb as there is always something taught that I will not believe. There seems to always be the traditions of men in all denominations too. Even if these traditions are harmless, I'm not one to follow the crowd and go by them. Needless to say, I'm usually ostricised in one way or another. But then, my experience my not be as vast as it should be.
I will attend Church next week but in no way will I cater to expectations of others or the traditions of the denomination. I plan to be me, with all my character defects, flaws and personality and will pray that I find acceptance by at least one person. This will be a blessing.
God Bless,
Denise
Maryann
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 12:41 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I too must say that finding a Church is an important thing in a Christian's life and walk.

Speaking for myself, when I started looking for a Church, I really got bombed out! Almost literally as I was actually told that I was no longer welcome at this particular Church. Part of my problem was that I asked a lot of questions. Anyone that knows me know that I'm not to shy about asking questions.

Had I found a good, friendly, warm, gospel teaching, non-legalistic, Christian church, I would NOT have floundered like I did for about 4 years.

Going into a Church like I ended up in was worse than NO Church! Really!!!;-(( Grrrrrrrrrrr

I lost most of my desire to be in a Church. I did try about 4 other Churches after, but they too were not "Former Adventist" friendly or knowledgable. Former Adventist friendly IS very important for many of us! I'd feel safe in saying that the majority of Evangelical Churches don't have a clue how to witness to or support a Former Adventist or JW etc. for that matter.

I was fortunate in finding support. It was in the form of tapes! So what, it was the gospel. Not only that, it helped with the "living skills" of a Christian too!! That was soooooooooooo important to me. I was introduced to the Holy Spirit!;-)))))) So many Churches introduce people to Jesus then FORGET to introduce them to the Holy Spirit, the forgotten member of the Trinity!

Now, I'm in a Church that teaches the gospel and the power of the Holy Spirit!;-)))))) It is very similar to the tapes I was introduced to yet so alive as there are real live, warm, breathing and praising bodies all around me;-}}}

Soooooo, YES!!!! Finding a Church to fellowship with like minded Christians is very important to some and also can be the gate to the gospel to others;-}}

Upward and onward.........Maryann
Loneviking
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 3:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe what would be helpful for our church seeking friends is to compare notes and experiences on specific churches/denominations.
Part of the process of finding a new church family is to also take a close look at what you believe and how deep into the subculture that you were. Very few 'formers' are going to be comfortable in any type of Pentecostal church, is an example of this. I also don't find too many 'formers' attending 'high church' type of denominations such as the Episcopal, Catholic or Lutheran churches.

I've noticed that the Methodist church services are very similar to the traditional SDA service. The 7th Day Baptists are another possibility as for the most part they are quite accepting of members with different viewpoints and the services are similar. The big problem with most mainline Baptist churches is the belief of 'once saved-always saved'---which is contrary to what has been taught in SDA'ism and (IMO) the Bible.

My choice was the Church of Christ. In their teaching they have some things in common with SDA beliefs. They believe in baptism by immersion; they don't believe in 'once saved--always saved'; they consider good works as an integral part of the Christian experience (not as salvific though);they are not Pentecostal and the worship service is comfortable for most SDA's---one oddity is that their singing is 'A-Capella'; they do not believe in allowing women to pastor/lead out in church or serve communion; and they have a long history of strongly standing up for what they believe even if other churches disagree with them. These churches are congregational with shared, common beliefs. The other nice thing is that there is a congregation in just about every town---much like the SDA's. Max Lucado is a CofC pastor in Texas, so if you like his writings you just might like the CofC.
Max
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 5:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Bill,

I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with Lydell
on this one. I respect primary evidence, and
don't care much for secondary evidence, as
you have seen from my comments on Barth's
supposed communism. The charges seem to
have been patched together by a spiritual
McCarthyite. Let's truck out Billy's own words
and start from there.

What do you say?
Lorinc
Posted on Monday, November 27, 2000 - 6:55 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LoneViking,

Thank You !! That sort of information is very helpful.

- Lorin

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