| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
Good morning all, Suprisingly I ended up i an Episcopalian congregation. This was because my husband was Catholic and I knew that a liturgical format would make him more comfortable and I knew that it would take along time for me to feel comfortable anywhere so it didn't matter. What do I enjoy about it now? Oddly, the liturgy and church calender. Although I don't take it as a lawful thing to do, I find I am comforted by the rhythm it places in my life. I like the seasons and the focus they have on different aspect of Christ's life and the Gospel message. I find the prayers in the prayer book rich with spiritual meaning. And I love the music. I have also enjoyed the openess of the people to others and to variances of beliefs. I know that if I believe differently on matters of doctrine I will not be ostracized if I express myself. I do agree with Loneviking that this is not a likely choice for former SDAs as the overall thought patterns of the congregation are liberal and the service is way to similar to a Roman Catholic Service. I would not even promote it as a choice. I share this to show that we will all end up in a variety of places and that what is most important is that you find a place that meets your needs and that you feel you can serve your best in. For me there is no one true church. Churches are organized by people who do everything imperfectly. This was a hard thing for me to overcome as I am so conditioned to the one true church thing. I am over it now and see that while we all worship imperfectly burying my head in the sand won't help me grow. I would encourage all of those who feel the NEED for a church home to keep looking, you will find one and it is OK if you do not believe everything all or some of the other members believe. Respectfuly disagree and ask yourself what can I learn here and how can I serve? Valerie PS Denise you are unique in all the world!!!! I think you have a church community in the place you live. You also have the gift of making everyplace your church community. Your presence on this site is an encouragement to others that can not seem to find that right church that they can be a dynamic part of the body of CHRIST without such an affiliation. I am truely blessed by your continued stories........ | ||
| Lydell |
One reason it is important for former's to find a good church is that, frankly, we need the accountability. We have swallowed garbage in the past. We sometimes need the spiritual sandpaper of other Christians beside us to challenge the stuff we are still carrying around. We need them there to provoke us to dig into the word and seperate the SDA chaff from the real manna. Kind of grates against the old ego, doesn't it. When we finally let the Lord lead us to a church, I fully expected it to be something like a Baptist church, since that is where I had been raised. (Today I couldn't stand the thought of being in a church with such staid worship as a Baptist church. Not at all saying that they are wrong, just that it isn't me.) Instead He led us to a Vineyard church. (Those of you who have heard this already, take a nap. This is for the new folks.) Vineyard churches are not quite traditional, but not quite charismatic either. We take from what both ends of the spectrim have learned thru the history of the church. The beliefs solidly rest on the scriptures with nothing added. As Maryann has said about her church, ours is an association of churches where the gospel is taught and the power of the Holy Spirit is at work. The difference between most charismatic churches and Vineyard churches is that we believe in having order. The style is casual. Casual dress, no labels, no titles, contemporary worship (whoa, yes we actually have electric guitars and those "devilish drums" as some Baptist once said to me.) Worship is extremely important in all our services. We see it as being equally as important as the teaching of the word. We encourage folks to first spend time acknowledging who God is, what He has done, praising Him, and honestly admitting to who you are, and then you are open to actually hear what He has to say in the teaching time. It's not a style that suits everyone. There isn't the view that we are the only ones who have it right. It's just the style that allows some of us to most freely enter into the presence of God. We can look back now and see that the Lord prepared us for this type of church for more than 5 years, tho we were only recently aware of that. Dan_2, your church's sermon tapes were one of the major things he used in that! Anyway, my point is, unless you are willing to say "Lord lead me ANYWHERE and confirm that I am in the right place", you are going to be in danger of trusting to your own preconceived ideas of what He should do. You won't really be open for what He wants to do in your life. If you have been struggling in finding a place, then it just might be that you haven't truly been open for the "whatever" of what HE might do. He just may have in mind stretching you a bit. And less someone rush in to judge that statement, I mean he may take someplace more traditional than what you had expected OR someplace more casual. | ||
| Lydell |
Okay, here's a thought for you to consider after you have been at a church for awhile. Ask yourself the question, "am I growing in my relationship with God, am I being changed?" If you can't look at the sermons and Bible studies and see that you are being challenged in that direction, then you are in the wrong place. What do you think? | ||
| Billtwisse |
On Billy: I do not believe that the lengthy quote by MacArthur was out of context. It was from a published article or sermon and was very explicit. I will try to track it down sometime but can't make it a priority right now. In fact, I will see if the tape is available the next time I make it to GCC. Anyway, the quote was in harmony with what I have heard from Graham in recent years. I do believe the BGEA will confirm that Graham holds that persons can be saved through the 'true light' that is in Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Islam, and other non-Christian religions. These are all supposed to have enough light (for instance--teachings on the practice of mercy) to somehow discern enough of the gospel and Christ to be saved. On Church: A person may find an acceptable church. Then again, maybe not. Both individuals are in the true body of Christ if they are Christians. Christianity is not churchianity. No denomination is uniform in its teaching. In most of the sects there are some gospel-oriented assemblies and others that are not. Even so, if the 'excess baggage' of the gospel-minded assemblies becomes a primary issue, the gospel itself will soon be distorted and have a reduced impact on souls. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Bill, It's perfectly fine to quote MacArthur. I have nothing against that at all. Nor am I saying that the quote from him was out of context. I'm saying that it is possible that MacArthur is himself out of context. And I'm suggesting that if we are going to question the gospel according to Billy Graham, then to be fair we must examine Billy's own words in his own context, not MacArthur's. What do you say, Bill? Isn't that a fair way to approach this? | ||
| Billtwisse |
Max, I believe that both you and I are trying to be reasonable and objective on this. In my judgment, based on everything that I have heard from Billy (and his son Franklin, in person) in recent years, plus the extensive nature of the quote that was read, MacArthur was not quoting Graham out of context. Others may see it differently--especially those very fond of Billy and what he has done/preached in the past. I myself was an admirer of Graham for many years and would like to impute the best of motives to him now. I believe he is a saved Christian. Emotionally, he wants to include the mass of humanity in salvation. I can sympathize with that feeling--after all, which one of us has not desired for some aspect of universalism to be true at some point in our lives? As Christians, it is normal for us to love all of humanity. A prominent government official claims that he was saved at a Billy Graham crusade (how often we have met such people). At the deaths of two different 'friends' of his (?? I will quote the famous statement by James McDougal before he died when someone asked if Bill Clinton was his friend. He stated, "in politics there is no room for friendship--only mutually advantageous alliances. Anyone who thinks any policitian is his friend is totally deceived." I personally believe the same is true of denominational leaders but that is my opinion--so much for this interlude) he said, "I hope he (the deceased) will receive the eternal grace and salvation that his good life and good works have earned." The same individual, when asked what the gospel was, said "everyone deserves a second chance." I won't name the person since my memory and quotes aren't much believed right now. But I can assure you that I did hear or read all of the above statements and have reported them accurately. The issue is not the ministry of one prominent evangelical. MacArthur (whom I disagree with on a number of issues--especially prophecy) was only using the BG quote as an illustration of the current state and direction of evangelicalism. I do concur that many present trends are an early warning sign of dangerous things to come. The evangelical church where I attended services yesterday is a good example. The message (preached by an associate pastor, from what I could ascertain) was the perfect Adventist sermon. It was all about how we have to be perfectly free of sin in order to stand in the judgment without fear. My wife agreed that it was the 'best Adventist sermon' that she had heard in many years! Strangely enough, the few times that I have been to SDA churches in recent years--I have heard gospel sermons! At least the language of the gospel. Why does this happen? It is not because the preacher was teaching the 'official' and accepted doctrine of the local congregation or the denomination it is affiliated with. It is because evangelicalism today does not know and defend historical theology. It is constantly getting more ignorant of the historic victories that have been won in Christology and soteriology. In reacting to the extremes of fundamentalism, it has gone to the opposite extreme. No clear stand is taken on many important issues regarding Christ and salvation. Therefore, ridiculous teachings by strange-thinking rebels are tolerated--believe me, this teaching yesterday was not only ridiculous--it was heretical in the extreme. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Greetings Bill, I appreciate your concern for preserving the integrity of orthodox historical Christian theology. I personally care less for that than for getting back to the integrity of Scripture alone. But I've stated this many times in the past. It's just a matter of a difference in point of departure, I guess. The issue is not you and your memory of quotes, as I see it. Nor is it whether or not MacArthur pulled or did not pull Graham quotes out of context. In my view the issue is primary versus secondary evidence. Whether in context or out, the MacArthur quote is secondary evidence. Primary evidence would be Bill Twisse finding a book or sermon written by Billy Graham, pulling the quote from that (rather than MacArthur) and presenting in here for all of us to see. This way we do not need to concern ourselves with MacArthur at all, and we can deal with the primary evidence directly and reach our own conclusions about whether or not Billy Graham has abandoned the gospel. I for one think the case against him has yet to be demonstrated beyond a reasonable doubt. If this were any other subject, it woldn't matter as much. But the gospel is at the heart of everything we as Christians believe. And even Billy Graham deserves his day in FAF court if there is going to be a consensus on this matter, not that there has to be. My opinion only. | ||
| Billtwisse |
Max, This whole thing started when I quoted MacArthur as saying that the trend of many current ministries in evangelicalism was the work of Satan. He gave BG as an example. Someone asked for more detail and I gave all that I could recall. I agree with MacArthur about the dangerous trends of many ministries but don't have the primary source of the Graham quote, as you say. I won't have time to look this up for a long while; at least a number of weeks. I personally believe that although Graham has taught some disturbing things, the 'work of Satan' title should be reserved for some other ministries that are more blatantly evil. I don't have time to evaluate this now. To me, Graham is not on trial as to whether he believes the gospel itself. The format and content of his public ministry is well-known to all and continues to be. I believe that his gospel is reductionistic, however, and has been for many years (the 'altar call' concept smacks too much of will-worship for me). If it proves to be true that he thinks Christ is mediated somehow in other religions, well--it is up to others to decide whether that means he has departed from the gospel. For me it would only indicate the same reductionism that he has been defending (not necessarily preaching all the time) for years. I will not now defend or propose the notion that Graham has departed from the gospel itself. I know that my original quoting of MacArthur implied that idea: so I hereby confess that to be in error. --Twisse | ||
| Bruceh |
Fellow seekers of a new Church. If you have been called out of the Adventist Church by the Gospel and a revelation from Jesus Christ, should you not pray and ask him which Church He would have you go to. We as former Adventist have been conditioned to do every thing for God out of our own works but now we need to learn how to listen to the Spirit and to walk by faith. We must trust that Jesus will indeed leed us into the right Church for our particular needs at our particular walk with the lord. He know us better then we do. My advise would be to ask God daily to lead you to the right Church and then to believe that he will lead you, use your faith and walk in faith, God will not lead you astray. Bruce Heinrich BH B | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, Me and my big mouth is fixin' to git in trouble;-) I've noticed a trend in those who leave a legalistic denomination or cult to tend to be just a tad bit too critical of Christian people's beliefs and preacher's gospel preachin'. (And I'm not in any way refering to the cults or non-gospel teachings!!) I don't have to much of a desire to get into the BG thing except to say that he has spread a lot of gospel in a lot of places. Exactly what he teaches on "outside of gospel" issues is one thing. I have heard some of his teachings and the gospel is quite well defined! This world has billions of people and there is GOING to be different ways of presenting the gospel due to the nature of US beast's (or sinner's.) Everyone has their own eyes and I figure that they have eyes to see in the way that the Holy Spirit impresses on them! I'm guilty of blasting others but have been convicted about it. I hope that we on this site wont get sucked into the "I have the only truth and have to pick apart every other person that opens a Bible!" Suppose we let the Holy Spirit do His job?;-}} With helmet in hand in deep mud;-((.....Maryann | ||
| Chyna |
maryann, I've noticed a trend in those who leave a legalistic denomination or cult to tend to be just a tad bit too critical of Christian people's beliefs and preacher's gospel preachin'. thanks for the observation, i wouldn't have known it myself personally. you phrase things in such wonderfully articulate maryann-ish way too :). on where God will place you in a church, i think you'll find God leading you to a church, or you'll be more drawn to a church if it's the place for you. for example, in my life i've been convicted that God doesn't want me to go to a single race church, whereas i've been raised in one. but that church gifted me with a deep desire to have a very well grounded in the word church, a church that really preaches and teaches from the gospel. another thing is: is God's love apparent in the congregation? are people serving one another. and a recent requirement I have acquired is how strong is their prayer meeting? you're right maryann, there is no 'true church' when we look at men, we will always be disappointed. same goes for church bodies. but do not discount what God does through FLAWED people. hm, i guess that's all i have to say. love, Chyna (another cracked pot) p.s. don't forget that the divisions (different denoms) in the church are from satan, and that the squabbling over minor doctrinal issues is what weakens the church | ||
| Lydell |
Here here Maryann. I don't think you need to be standing in the mud. Chyna, can I offer something to think about on your comment about the differnt denominations being a work we can attribute to satan. I have come to see it as being the Lord having different groups to minister to different groups of people in their own way of thinking. The personal language of the different individuals, as it where. I think the Lord is expressing spiritual truths in various ways to reach people who are in various steps of their walk with Him. And I think He uses the different denominations for different specific ministries. We aren't all going to be cookie cutter images of each other as a result of that. For instance, Vineyard churches tend to see folks come to our services who are deeply wounded from life stuff, sometimes the wounds were inflicted by a "religious" person in the past. They need the very open atmosphere where they can just speak what is on their mind immediately to get on with their healing as quickly as possible. That doesn't mean that there isn't a place say, for the Presbyterians, who tend to be more reserved. There are going to be folks who can more quickly find their healing in that atmosphere. And OF COURSE I am speaking only of Christian groups! The thing I think we can most certainly lay at satan's door is any attitude of division between the different denominations/churches that keep them from seeing themselves as working side by side in the cause of Christ. That is another thing that we took away from Adventism that has to be set aside. It is NOT true that all denominations or all churches across the board have fallen into that trap. In our own city there is a Save a Life ministry, ministry to those who have had abortions, food ministry, Bible study groups, and other projects that come up that receive the help from different groups. And that doesn't even start to mention the nationwide men's and women's groups, crusades, and mission's work. The mindset that "Christians don't work together or talk to each other" is a stumbling block on the way to finding a church where we can fellowship. And something we need to warn newly former's about. IMHO | ||
| Max |
The attitude of accusation and division is the attitude of Satan: NIV Revelation 12:9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the ACCUSER of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. | ||
| Max |
Paul appeals for harmony and against quarrelling. 1 Corinthians 1:10-14 NIV : ^^I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Cephas [Peter]"; still another, "I follow Christ." ^^Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul? I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius [also the Stephanas household].^^ | ||
| Max |
Paul labels dissensions and factions "acts of the sinful nature." Galatians 5:19 NIV: "The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual imorality, impurity and debauchery; idollatry and witchcraft; selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT inherit the kingdom of God." We need to be careful to understand, though, that he was NOT speaking against different: * opinions, * approaches, * ministries, or * organizations. For Paul's teaching on the different functions of the different organs making up the body of Christ allow -- and even require -- differences. The New Testament condemns accusations, quarrels and factions, not legitimate cooperative differences. | ||
| Max |
Dear seekers of new congregations, With the above texts firmly in mind (Revelation 12:9-10; 1 Corinthians 1:10-14; Galatians 5:19), seek out the local fellowship that best meets your needs at the time. There is nothing wrong either with the more formal "high church" (e.g., the Episcopal) or with the more informal "low church" (e.g. the more charismatic). Let God be sovereign and lead you willingly rather than drive you unwillingly. He knows your needs better than you do. Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, I read those Scripture you have posted and agree with them. However, I don't believe that Paul is sanctioning the teachings of demons or men. As for me, I will oppose all who teach what is not Biblical. Paul also contended for the Faith. He argued too. So I just wanted to point this out as well. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Example: Acts 15:1-2,5 "Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers; 'Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.' This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them." verse 5: Then some of the BELIEVERS who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, 'The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.' | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Another example: Acts 19:8-9 Paul entered the SYNAGOGUE and spoke boldly there for three months, ARGUING PERSUASIVELY about the Kingdom of God. But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had dicussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus. | ||
| Valm |
Is it possible that every church out there teaches something unBiblical? Where would that leave us? By walking out on the churches are we doing a disservice to ourselves (and others) or doing what is best for ourselves? Could not affiliating with and organized group be the best answer for some but not for others? Valerie |
