| Author | Message | ||
| Valm |
In my own journey out of Adventism, I have been profoundly impressed with how similar living in Adventism is to being in an abusive or addictive situation. I have discovered many formers and also present SDAs in the closet suffer from other forms of addiction as well as participate in other forms of abusive behaviors. Is there a biological tendency in us towards these things? Is it that this is all we know in our life so go from out of the frying pan into the fire? How can we leave spiritual abuse and addiciton and assimilate ourselve into a life of balance and joy? I truely believe that having life more abundantly begins now and wish to do so. I know for myself I have to overcome my own eating addiction and ask for prayers in that. I wish to open this site for people to post their experiences, insight, questions and useful information regaurding this matter. | ||
| Therese |
Hi, I'm new to the forum. I've been reading the posts for a couple of months now and sorting things out. I've been SDA for 20 years, but have been questioning SDA for the last 5 years. I stopped attending SDA church about 2 months ago. Not sure where God is leading me. SDA seemed so right for 15 years. Now I see lots of problems --legalism, lack of love and concern for members, corruption in high places, crediblity of EGW, etc. But I still have doctrinal issues. Your post on abuse and addiction caught my eye. I see a definite link between SDA and other abusive behaviors. In SDA churches and schools in my area there have been what seems to me to be an excessive number of abusive situations(sexual, power, verbal, physical, extreme control, etc). It seems to be at a higher rate of incident than the general "normal" population that I am exposed to elswhere. When an abuse has been exposed in the SDA insitutions in my area, the victim is blamed, accountability is avoided, no controls are put in place to avoid the same problem in the future. I wonder if the culture of the church fosters an enviornment conducive to abuse. The responses I've seen seems very strange. I've seen parents leave a child in a physically abusive school situation "for her salvation" because that school was "less worldly." She was to "learn to turn the other cheek" and to "grow from the experience." A boy at the local academy was tormented by other students for over 1 year. He repeatedly complained of the abuse and nothing was done until it escalated into a sexual assault and police involvement. (Why did his parents leave him in that school?) Leadership have looked the other way when staff have had inappropriate relationships with minors. I've heard many more stories and have personally seen inappropriate behavior. Something about the SDA system sets it up for abuse. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Therese, Welcome!;-) Valerie....This was a great thread idea. Therese....Tell us more about you;-) Funny that I should have just posted what I posted a few minutes ago on another thread! I really do believe that the mis-understanding of; "train up a child in the way he should go," is behind a lot of abuse if not most of it. What do you think? My being with-held from school from 3rd grade on with no structured schooling was mainly designed to "train me it the way I should go!" Your post was kinda heart wrenching. I think I was one of the fortunate ones in that I was not in the formal SDA structured, mind bending school system! It would have been neat to have gone to "A" school! I'm finding that there are so many things I'm learning from my kids school experiences. Winterim was not in my vocabulary till a few month ago! I never experienced having 47 different teachers in a day like my daughter has! I never experienced peer pressure! I never learned what "kids" were as I was alone 99 44/100 % of my childhood. I DON'T KNOW HOW TO TALK TO KIDS! I never had a high school crush or break up! I missed all that stuff. Now with a 12 that was home schooled for 2 years and a 14 year old that was home schooled for 4 1/2 years till this year, I'm going.....eeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!! What are these creatures? And what are these other creatures that are being mean to "my" creatures!? I guess that not having experienced other kids being mean like the kids are sometimes mean to mine, ISSSSS the hardest thing for me to deal with. I look at other kids that REALLY have horrible things done to them and get some comfort that my kids are getting off easy! (I still think (only think) about skinning up my knuckles on mean kids teeth!;-) Soooo, anyway, great to have you with us posting. Hope to hear more from you and I'll bet our very special Allenette will enjoy you too. Re-welcome........:):)Maryann | ||
| Valm |
Good morning Therese and Maryann too, I am so happy you posted. I believe that through talking about these thngs we provide healing to one another. By sharing these experiences we affirm to others that they really did happen and they were really significant and do require healing. During my childhood years my parents were not yet mega strict Adventists and it was their belief that I would be a better witness for God by learning to live a God like life amongst the "worldly". So I went to public school, in my dresses that went to the knees. (I quickly learned to buy skirts and blouses worn on the outside and how to roll up a waistband!!!). The hardest part of that for me is that I felt I was always on the outside looking in. I was so different and there were so many activities I wished to pursue but was not allowed to do so. There was a glass wall always in front of me. I am not sure I considered it abusive on my parents part, but it is something I needed to do grief work over. We did go to a small church school for aabout three years. The first two we had a wonderful teacher who was good. The third year we were pulled out when the teacher spanked my brother in front of my mother. That did her in fortunately. I was unaware that some SDA schools had the abuse that Therese is describing. It just should not be that way for any children. We are so fortunate where we live. The public schools are excellent in our district. I feel like my child is going to another family when he goes to kindegarten. There is not a teacher in that school that I would worry about with regaurds to appropriate behaviors with the kids. There is also a strong and excellent volunteer parent presence in the school. I go almost every Monday to help out in various ways. My neices and nephews are home schooled and I feel for them for all of the positive things they miss out on. But then I know they wouldn't be able to participate anyway and I wonder if this is their parent's way of not confronting what they went through by going to public school. Maryann, I like your interpretation on train up a child..... We are so bent on molding them that we forget that God has his own purpsoe for them and has given them their own special gifts and path. And it certainly diffuses the need to control everything our children do.... I am presently going to a counselor for a variety of reasons chiefly ANXIETY issues that I believe stem from not living under grace for so very long. I pulled her outline on addictions from the bulletin board and want to list the major and other charecteristics of addictions. THEY ARE: Black and whith thinking to foster the illusion of CONTROL....Addictions force choices+double-bind, right/wrong, happy/unhappy, stay/leave, spend/not spend.....Defend, rationalize, explain, justify, judge, deny, BLAME......Lying, being sneaky, being out of integrity with self and others....ISOLATE SELF....Escalate over feedback and confrontation and keep others SCARED to tell us how out behavior is dysfunctional.... Others are: Self-centered, depressed, confused, making assumptions about others feeling, forgetfulness, dependency, DEFENSIVENESS, Fear, Feelings of WORTHLESSNES, JUDGEMENT OF OTHERS carying and holding grudges, RATIONALIZATION in the face of our mistakes, DEPENDENT ON EXTERNAL REFERENTS "WHAT OTHERS THINK OF US", CONSTANTLY TAKING INVENTORY. These are credited to Elaine Childs Gowell and Shelley Tucker who are practicing therapists in Seattle. I added the caps to the ones I grew up with under Adventist philosphy. Addiction and abuse seem to go hand in hand. Coming from a philosphy which I believe fostsers this requires healing and careful contemplation of the charecteristics of addictive abusive behaviors lest we fall into other abusive systems. | ||
| Therese |
Thanks for the welcome, ladies. You asked me to tell you about myself. Well I didn't growup SDA. I was Roman Catholic and taught by nuns - 12 years. (That's another story.) I joined SDA as an adult after a born again experience and praying for God to lead me to the true church. From all indications, God led me to a start-up SDA church. It was a new church started by an evangelist. We were truly a "new testament" church -- learning, caring for one another and spreading the gospel. It was a good experience and we stayed there 7 years. What I didn't know, was that this church was an annomaly in SDA. We moved and began attending an old, long established SDA church. At first it was culture shock, but then as we became more indoctrinated in EGW, we became more restrictive and legalistic without even knowing it. The turning point came for us about 5 years ago when my husband came down with a very serious disabling disease. We had given a lot of time, money and had very visible positions in the local church. We were shocked at the lack of concern and support. There are virtually no caring ministries to help people through life's difficulties. We began looking around and realized many others were treated the same. The message always seemed to be "perfect your character" so you can pass the investigative judgment, stand without a mediator, not get the mark of the beast and have a character fit for heaven. And, of course, support the organization and its institutions. Loving one another, bearing one anothers burdens, etc. was missing or minimized. Members are valued for their utility (money and labor) and "kicked to the curb" when that runs out. This experience caused us to take a serious look at SDA and decide if it really was God's church. We began receiving support from non-SDA churches. We saw love and compassion for one another and began to hear a grace message. We're not sure where we are headed, but we are headed somewhere. I didn't attend SDA schools, but I have a son who has and I am concerned about what damage has been done to him. We took him out in 6th grade. He is now in public high school. I find it much harder to leave SDA than it was to leave Catholicism. Anyway, that is how I got here. Therese | ||
| Chyna |
daer valerie, i was crying while i read your description of abuse/addiction. a few minutes ago, i was sitting on my bed, despairing twofold. the primary despair is about me ex-b/f who is sda. i am not sda or ever have been, but i got deeply involved with him, and he broke up with me because i did not want to become sda... i was also sitting pulling at a hopelessly entangled mess of yarn. sitting there, asking God why. why did He let me become involved with an SDA, why would He let me go through all that hurt? i finally gave up on the yarn, cutting it. but then i came online here to read posts as i often do when i am so disheartened. the answer is that God must really love andy, and that God must really love adventists because through my sorrow and grief, i made my testimony known to as many adventists as possible, and whenever anyone asks about my ex-b/f i explain a lot, I have to. and, when i do meet current adventists i have a lot to say also. and miracle of miracles, my hands began to gently start untangling the mess of hopelessly knotted yarn. one knot at a time i pulled apart, and i think that was God's answer to andy's life, that God is unentangling it one knot at a time even though to me, it looked like it was beyond hope. while i am still crying, it gives me great hope to know that in heaven it won't be like this. "and He will wipe every tear from their eye." in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
another thing about living a life under legalism, trying harder to be sinless ... if Jesus Christ were to come to earth today, who would He be dining with? the world leaders? the richest businessmen? the movie stars? no, Jesus Christ would be sitting talking to the homeless, to the prostitutes, to the prisoners, to the drug dealers. the awesome thing about God is that He extends His love to marginalized people. outcasts, lepers, and also when we boast about our weaknesses, the Glory of God can be shown. and now, my yarn is completely untangled. | ||
| Valm |
Chyna and Therese, Thank you for shairng your story with us. My family started out as Catholics and became SDA when I was eight. I had always heard that converted Catholics make the best SDAsand I think the common denominator is the legalistic slant that RC have in their theology. It is harder to leave SDA then Catholocism. SDA is a much more drastic difference than Catholocism. SDA is its own culture and world. In addition, I believe the elements of practice and thoughts are addicting of themselves. The hardest part of leaving Adventism to me is the obsession with the EGW passages that pointed to my behaviors in leaving were a sign of the "last days". This wasn't a prophecy but a hook into people to keep them under control. I find the system of belief pretty tight in terms of getting out because of this element. The control part of the SDA system was the largest charecteristic of addicition for me. Therese for me it has been most therapeutic to read re read and write down in a notebook all of the passages in the Bible that say that Jesus will forever be my mediator and that it is his grace only that is sufficient for me. I am presently studying the online book, New Covenent Christians which you can get to by going to links and looking under the ministry led by Clay Peck. He gives a great piece of advise to people coming out of SDA and that is study the New Testement thoroughly and then study the Old Testement with "New Covenant Eyes" Chyna I agree with you that Jesus would plunk himself down with the people who need him the most. I am honored that I was able to say something that was the catharsis for untangling your yarn. God sent you to Andy for a reason, you are a significant piece in him untangling his yarn and it will happen in Gods good time. | ||
| Valm |
Another thought from my outline on addictions by Gowell/Tucker. THINGS WE LOSE AS A RESULT OF ADDICTIONS: 1. Loss of intimacy with others. 2. Loss of contact with the world. 3. Loss of contact with our feelings. 4. Loss of ability to think clearly. 5. Loss of integrity. For myself all five were a BIG loss in my life. How could I truely be intimate with anyone when I was not free to really ask my questions, share my doubts and voice my disagreement? Although I went to public schools and held jobs in public institutions, something most SDAs do not take privelege in doing there was always that glass wall..... Denial of true feeling was essential to survival of the social construct of Adventism. How many of us still struggle with being in true touch with ourselves? I couldn't think past the arrows of EGW. I could not absorb the Gospel message so plainly stated in the New Testament. Loss of integrity. I was a honest person with the exception of my religious experience. Like many SDAs I withheld information about our church under the pretense that others would not understand and without the understanding it would reflect poorly on who we are. I remember as a kid being reminded everytime we got out of a car to visit relatives to remember we were witnesses for Christ, in other words make appearances don't fight kids, don't show any family weaknessess. Do these things we lose listed above sound familiar to you with regaurds to Adventism and other addictive behaviors you have either overcome or are struggling with? | ||
| Therese |
Valm, Thanks for the suggestions and link to Clay Peck. I will check that out. You're right about Roman Catholics making good SDAs. It is not only the legalistic similarities, but also SDA doctrines provide RCs with a more black and white theology. RC is a more etheral kind of faith with a lot of "sacred mysteries"(catholic term for RC doctrines that don't make sense). Also SDA "last day events" incorporates RC into it and gives a logical explanation to RC theological problems, etc. It can appear to be so right. SDA appears to give answers to questions for RCs. I recently heard a tape entitled "Adult Children of Unhealthy Fundamentalists". It was non-SDA. It basically said that growing up in a restrictive and controlling home (which is what happens in most SDA homes)is essentially the same as growing up in an alcoholic home. The dynamics are the same and the individual is then prone to addictions and getting involved in other abusive situations like the child from an alcoholic home is. I didn't grow up SDA, so I can look at some aspects of SDA as an outsider looking in. As I mentioned in an earlier post, there seems to me to be a higher incident of abuse in the SDA schools and churches than elswhere. I think this probably is because abuse seems normal to SDAs who grew up in the restrictive conrolling SDA system and homes. Therefore, there is more of a tendency to deny, not confront and not correct abuse in SDA institutions. I don't have any current addictions (onced was addicted to cigarettes) but my parents were alcoholics. This may be, along with the RC connection, why I was attracted to SDA. There are many good books on the market for "Adult Children of Alcoholics". Since the experience of growing up adventist is similar to growing up in an alcoholic home, maybe these books could help you to understand what happen to you and how to heal from it. God bless, Therese | ||
| Valm |
Therese, I am particularly interested in getting a copy of the tape on Adult Children of Unhealthy Fundamentalists. Can you give infor about the publisher and where to obtain it? I am slowly healing. I have felt a real change in the last few weeks. While I knew many things on a cognitive level, I am beginning to feel them on an emotional and cellular level. I have learned to stretch my creativity to new heights in raising my own kids. It is second nature for me to use my parents parenting behaviors. My eldest son has ADHD and authoritarian parenting blows up in your face with these kids; God has blessed me with him or perhaps I'd just repeat the generation I grew up in. I still have grief work to do. I grieve for what could have been for my own childhood as well as to have a complete relationship with my siblings and parents. The fragmentation of those relationships became apparent as I left the church. I say apparent because living with all of the conditions I lived with is not a whole relationship in the first place. Therese, I am so glad you are a part of FAF. Each of us brings something special to the fellowship. You are bringing affirmation that as an adult you see these things happening to the children in the church. Those who were raised in those environments will not receive that affirmation from thoses they grew up with due to the factors you mentioned. Thank you for coming forward with your observations. Valerie | ||
| George |
I don't know how to start my own, so here, it goes. See what you all think of this, This last spring My sister got me to start posting on this forum, by getting me going on the once saved always saved thing. In answer to one of my posts Lori said that Christ died for the wicked too. Well, what a shocking thought, He not only died for the sins of those that are going to heaven, but He died for the sins of those that are going to hell also. Now if He died for the sins of the wicked and they go to hell what's going on here? I thought that by dying for our sins He assured us a place in heaven, but some of those He died for are not going to be there. I got to thinking that it must not be the things we usually call sins that that keep us out. John 3:16 says that who ever believes on Him will have everlasting life. And I think verse 18 adds to that. If believing gives us everlasting life, then not believing must give us death. So now, it seems that all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all, it is just the "sin" of unbelief. Patti was so kind as to find a lot of verses that backed up that idea, but with out the "word search" I can't find them. If all this is true, it leaves us in somewhat of a mess, as the Bible talks about a lot more than the "sin" of unbelief. It seems there is a whole host of things that are sins, and all of them could keep us out of heaven. What, do we have a contradiction here? Seems like it doesn't it. How are we going to solve this? I think it is in Rom 14 that it says--if you believe it is a sin and do, it then it is a sin for you. Take a close look at this, if we believe it is a sin and do it anyway what are we doing? Going against our beliefs. Think about it, if we go against our belief in Christ we go to hell, perhaps going against our other beliefs is what makes all those other sins. So maybe it isn't so much whether a thing is a sin for you and not for me, but our beliefs about them when we do those things. George | ||
| Chyna |
i'm sorry george but i disagree profoundly. i believe that becoming saved is one act of faith for all time. to say that we can unsave ourselves smacks of giving us power to give ourselves salvation. one thing i noticed also in common with Valerie and Therese, is the controlling home environment in my ex's life. his mother was especially controlling about SDA things: no meat, no pork, healthy diet, etc. etc. he would tell me that his parents would come to the children and would pass down a new family rule, which of course, they knew that their mother had added as a new restriction. i wonder if it is SDA that makes ppl controlling or that controlling people are attracted to SDA (and its legalism). although, his mother's parents were SDA and you teach your children what you learn from your parents. it is both sad, but helpful to hear about how growing up in an SDA home affects those raised in that manner. i think at a point it just becomes so overwhelming that you are so close to it you cannot see the shape of it anymore because you are blinded in closeness. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Valm |
George, Do you wear yourself out with all of this? I am not trying to be critical but sometimes when I read your posts I become exhausted. JUST BELIEVE and then enjoy the ride. George, Jesus did die for sinners and I am I am one of them. But he didn't die so I could take my ranks up in hell; he died to cover me with HIS GRACE. HIS GRACE is sufficient for you too. I think you did find the correct thread to write in. This is one of the most toxic and abusive parts of SDAism. It is that the system never allows its members to REST in JESUS. It counsels its members to NEVER ALLOW THEMSELVES to be confident of their never ending relationship with him. George, once you can get over this, sinning or not sinning will not be an issue. You will let the HOLY SPIRIT guide you and know that GRACE COVERS YOU when you REALLY MESS UP. Chyna, Yes it is the which comes first the chicken or the egg thing. I am not for sure either it is probably a little of both. Controlling people are attracted to they system because of the control element. Out of control people are attracted to it because it places things in order for them. And sincere people are sucked in by their desire to do what is right. In your last statement you said "you are so close to it you canot see the shape of it anymore" and that is so true. Part of that is due to the gradual process that goes on. Each new restriction adds up and what would have seemed utterly rediculous years ago seemes reasonable now. My family speaks of transitional diet for the newcomer. You start with not eating certain types of meat to then lacto ovo vegetarian to then a vegan diet and to then restrictions within that diet also. Another example is you start with taking off jewelry and then making sure your clothes are more modest and then no pants and before you know it the whole family walks down the street looking like Mennonites. Neither of these things does anything to exuberate God's love. Being God's peculiar people means (to me) that my contact with people leaves them with such a warmth that they say "Wow that was a refreshing encounter, I wonder what she did this morning?" Hey everyone have a really nice day; go forward in GRACE with confidence that JESUS is ours. Valerie | ||
| George |
Val and Chyna, I think you both have missed my point. I can remember sitting in a corner room in Tampa Junior Academy in Florida and being told during baptism brainwashing that I was save by grace and not works. What was grace? I didn't know but it was nothing I did but something He did. So I don't and haven't had any trouble with the works, grace issue. I believe that once I accept His salvation I am saved period. I also believe I can give up that salvation if I want to, other wise I have a license to do what ever I want and don't have to pay the price for it. The issue is, 1. There are verses in the Bible that say the only sin is unbelief. 2. There are verses in the Bible that say, if I think something is a sin then it is one for me if I do it. What kind of sins are these in example No. 2? Do they not count? What are the consequences of doing them? These questions have to be answered before I will go any farther. I will not just say, they don't matter just because I don't understand them. George | ||
| Max |
Hi George, I always am stimulated by your posts and I appreciate your contributions here. I cannot agree with your statements about sin, though. Haven't time to go into that now. But I did want to say something about Patti. You posted, ^^it seems that all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all, it is just the "sin" of unbelief. Patti was so kind as to find a lot of verses that backed up that idea.^^ With all my heart and mind I believe that from the beginning Patti was teaching a false gospel, false grace and a false Christ. From all this falseness comes the idea that "all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all." It seems to me that this idea is heresy and only leads people to hell, which begins now, just as heaven begins now. Furthermore, all the texts she used were eisegesis (reading one's own opinion into the text) devoid of exegesis (reading out of the text what is really there). Sorry, but on this point there can be no compromise, because souls are at stake. Bless you, George, for you are one of Christ's sheep. Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
George, I can not answer number two for you anybetter than you can answer number two for me. I can only tell you what has worked well for me. I live by GRACE. The first thing I say when I wake up in the morning is that HIS GRACE is sufficient for me. From that point forward I ask myself is the activity or thought I am engaging in honoring the gift GOD gave me? I do my best and the rest is covered by GRACE. If I deliberated on sin or not sin I would become flat out discouraged and exhausted. To me that is where SDAism didn't work. The constant focus on sin and perfection distracted all of us from what it is really about, growing in grace. I will close with Max's blessing, you truely are Christ's and God Bless you. Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hey Guyz, I'm back in Redlands:-)))) Whewwwwwww!:-)) As to this discussion with George: Somehow, his post was not understood. I don't have time right now as I have to unload and clean a 90 gal fish tank and all the paraphanalia that goes with it, but I would like to come back this evening and try to post what I think is on his mind. I will say now that I don't think he was going in the direction of a "free ride" idea. What is good about George's posting's is that he thinks in concepts and if he does!, I'm sure that there are more that think that way too. We need to be sensitive to "other" people's way of thinking and and try to wrap our thoughts around the way they think so we can "understand" what they are trying to say. We all don't express ourselves the same way with the same CLARITY. TRUST ME!!!!!! It is hard to understand other people's ideas or what they are tying to say sometimes. Just look at the way I look at things sometimes!!!!!;-) I guess, in other words, when George makes a post that is concepted so differently than what we are used to hearing, it might be best to ask him to "clarify" what he means. It seems to me that he HAS been put on the defensive! That is NOT a comfortable place for anyone to be at!!! Two minds coming from different directions CAN come to a logical and correct conclusion if the minds involved are aware and willing to understand the other AND ASK QUESTIONS! I'm NOT saying that heresy should run rampant here! I'm simply saying that if some of these issues are ASKED and DISCUSSED rather than STATED and ARGUED, heresy WONT be an issue as these are things that are simply being talked out. And George;-) I'm talking to you and myself too! ;-).....Sis | ||
| Maryann |
And.....George, from converstions I've had seems to have a pretty good grasp on Salvation and grace. BUT....He's still a baby and has a million questions. As a baby Christian, he needs to be nurtured rather than put on the defensive. I think that is a breeding ground for anger and frustration. BUT? Maybe I'm being too defensive?!!?;-) | ||
| Valm |
Maryann and George, I do not wish to put either of you on the defensive. And I am sorry if my tone is argumentative as I don't mean it to be. You have the advantage of knowing George much better than I do. You understand the meaning behind his words. All I have is what is written. So much of language is both non verbal and perspective oriented that the rest of us are at a great disadvantage. From my perspective George your posts come through as someone who is very burdened over sin. I also have the impression that you really want to believe and embrace Salvation and Grace but still have some nagging thoughts that it is just to good to be true. I hope that my impression is sorely mistaken and I apologize for that. Living under Grace is not anymore of a free ride than getting married or having kids are. I married my husband because I love him dearly. and I had kids because I wanted to love them dearly also. With regaurds to a marital contract and my responsibilities to my children, the thought doesn't enter my mind anymore than breathing does. Everything I do is done with regaurds to how it honors God and what impact it would have on my husband and family. I will do my best but not lay awake at night worrying about it. It is just counter productive. I have a very hard time with his discussion because I feel it pulls me back to where I was. I do not wish to go there because for me that place is not pleasant. I can not spend my life worried and preseverating about what is and is not sin. It seems to negative to me. With due respect this thread is about spiritual abuse and addiction. Could we turn it back to that focus? |
