| Author |
Message |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 3:59 pm: |     |
Yes, hug, Cindy, with Richard's permission. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 4:21 pm: | |
George, you were born with a dead soul. You
were born separated from God. Being
separated from God with a dead soul is not
sin itself, but the result of sin -- Adam's and
Eve's.
Rather, sin is self control. Or attempting
self control and being out of control instead.
Sin is trying to control God. It is arrogating unto
one's self the imperial sovereignty that is
God's alone. Sin is knowing or thinking to
know good from evil -- something that only
God can know -- and thus trying to be God. Sin
is trying to be oneís own God. Sin is trying to
be the God of other people.
Sin is my thinking that my soul is not dead. Or,
realizing that it really is dead, trying to
resurrect it. Trying to breathe into oneís own
nostrils the breath of life.
Sin is thinking that God is some giant vending
machine in the sky: I insert my tithe (a dollar or
a five or ten or fifty, etc., depending on how
ìstrongî I am spiritually) and expecting the
windows of heaven to open and pour me out
such a blessing that I wonít have room
enough to receive it.
Sin is behaving as though God is some
50-ton gorilla in the sky -- my own personal
pet -- who will stomp the living spit out of all
my enemies. Thus when I go to war in a
foreign land my foxhole prayers are very
earnest and sincere and I have a ìfoxhole
conversion."
But such a conversion is like the ìrice
conversionsî of starving people who need
food from missionaries. Or the ìdraft dodger
conversionsî of business majors who switch
to theology during the draft and gain that
coveted 4D classification. What the hey, dude?
I donít even have to go to Canada now!
Sin is thinking to understand God and then,
when I think Iíve got Him all figured out,
believing I get to choose or refuse. Forgetting
that at every step along my way the Hound of
Heaven, dogging my heels, keeps saying,
ìYou did not choose me. I chose you.î
Sin is being unwilling to ìlet go and let God.î
Sin is standing on a cliff on a foggy day and
refusing to jump because I donít trust the Son
God when he says I will fly like an eagle rather
than fall like a rock.
Sin is the turning away from Jesus by the rich
young ruler because he just couldnít bring
himself to sell all that he had, give to the poor,
and receive treasure in heaven -- which under
the new covenant is an immediate reward.
Sin would have been the refusal of Paul to
have acknowledged the appearance of his
Lord and Saviour, getting back up off the road
and continuing on to murder more Christians
in Damascus.
Sin would have been the refusal of Peter to go
out and weep bitterly when the rooster crowed
the crack of Christís doom in his mind. Sin
would have been Peterís continued denial and
continued bringing down the curses of God
upon himself.
Sin is drawing the sword in the Garden of
Gethsemane and cutting off the ear of the high
priest's servant.
Sin was Judas leaving his Lordís supper and
going out into the night and doing what his
Lord had prophesied he would do.
Sin was Roman Gov. Pilate washing his
hands in a vain effort to wash Christís
indelible blood off.
Sin is refusing to let Jesus of Nazareth be your
Lord and Saviour.
Sin is ìgoing it alone.î
Sin is thinking the way the character in Henly's
INVICTUS thought:
-------------------------------------
INVICTUS
by William Ernest Henley,Ý1849ñ1903
Out of the night that covers me,
ÝÝBlack as the pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
ÝÝFor my unconquerable soul.
Ý
In the fell clutch of circumstance
ÝÝI have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
ÝÝMy head is bloody, but unbow'd.
Ý
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
ÝÝLooms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
ÝÝFinds and shall find me unafraid.
Ý
It matters not how strait the gate,
ÝÝHow charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate:
ÝÝI am the captain of my soul.
-------------------------------------
I once thought this way.
Not any more.
I have taken up my cross and followed Jesus.
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 4:23 pm: | |
Ps. George, there is no free grace without
repentance. This is true for all of us. |
George
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 9:01 pm: | |
Hay all you Guys,
I really appreciate all your thought,
but it seems we are back at the
beginning. Are you questioning whether
I understand what salvation is? If you
are go back and read all my posts on
Sins and Sinning and I think you will
see that I do understand. It is free
what more needs to be said? If that
does not do it, go back and read all my
posts on the conscience and sinning. If
you do, you will see that this is not
the problem.
So what IS the problem?
Picture yourselves as kids being raised
in a legalistic religion with all the
trauma, guilt and fear that brings.
Remember all the confusion and shame
you felt?
Now fast forward to the recent past,
when you first heard you may have been
doing it all wrong by trying to work
your way to heaven. Now, picture
yourself as you first felt hearing
about Grace only, for the first time.
How exciting that must have been, but
at the same time how down right gut
wrenching that must have been at the
same time, thinking you might have to
change. Especially since EGW said you
will go to hell if you did.
Now, lets go forward a little bit more
till you were about to leave the
church. Do you remember how you felt
then? I will bet some of you are still
not over the effects of the TERROR you
felt over your decision you to "jump".
Still, most of you had it somewhat easy
as you could see you were going toward
something better.
Now lets look at me. I gave up all
"religion" over 30 years ago. So much
so that I would get away form anyone or
anything that was talking religion. The
subject literally made me ill.
All of us have someone in our past that
we "hated" or revolted us. Now picture
yourself going to them and saying,
"Here is my life, lets spend it
together for ever." Not a fun thought
is it?
THAT, is where I am right now! Deciding
to spend my life with Someone I felt
just that way about.
George |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, December 30, 2000 - 10:35 pm: | |
George,
Salvation ^^ is free; what more needs to be
said?^^ Well, for starters, though it is free:
* It is not at your disposal.
* You can't have it without repentance.
* You can never choose it; it always chooses
you.
* It demands your whole life.
* It cost the Son God his life.
* The Holy Spirit comes with it.
Salvation always changes you, makes you a
new creation. All things become new as the
old passes away. |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2001 - 6:21 am: | |
Biblically speaking, faith and belief are the same thing (both come from the same Greek root). The Pauline and Johannine concept is that faith or belief is dynamic, not static (a 'bare minimum' assent that the historic facts about Christ are a good thing to think about as potentially true). Genuine faith is excited about the gospel, not grudgingly approving.
'Faith' in Paul and 'belief' in John are the same thing. One apostle uses faith to descibe trust in Christ, the other belief.
--Twisse |
Valm
| | Posted on Monday, January 01, 2001 - 8:09 pm: | |
George,
Hey believe it or not I can relate.
There was a time that I figured that giving my life to God would be like being in a LOVELESS MARRIAGE just to be well kept in comfort.
It is a transition to come out of that. It took me years of going to church before I could fathom (Spelling) that just maybe God was something else.
But I guess I decided that I was pretty miserable the way I was so it was time for perspective shifting.
I am not much of an intellectual, more of an intuitive type. I just decided it just had to be the better of the two ways.
And each day gets better and better. I wake up and say His grace is all that I need. And I am joyful of my progress in becoming a happy and at peace person.
The wonderful thing about this is to be rereading the Bible with this new perspective. It was there all the time and I never could see it.
Best of luck George. When you take the plunge, are you going to register at Nordstum or the Bon?:)
Valerie |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 3:00 pm: | |
God's grace is not a box of truffles, it is a fist to
the face. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 4:03 pm: | |
We need to become more and more bold in
proclaiming the gospel to our friends the
Adventists. As the Son God rises in our hearts
and we see more of the opaque shadows of
Adventism and White-ism disappear in the
blinding light of truth, we need to speak out
more and more boldly.
This is not a matter of debating bewitched
people (Galatians 3) and, having "won" the
argument, driving them back into their
darkness because "a man convinced against
his will is of the same opinion still."
No! This is a matter of necessity: "For though I
preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of:
for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto
me, if I preach not the gospel!î (NIV 1
Corinthians 9:16.)
There have been many who have come to
FAFF to debate. Those who have lost the
argument have all left. But is this a reason
NOT to preach? A reason NOT to debate when
challenged?
Who knows what happens inside the hearts of
those who have defended Adventism here and
been confounded by the Word of God against
the ìbroken stickî of Ellen G. Whiteís
deceptions? The Holy Spirit knows!
Therefore, let God be God, since the Holy
Spirit IS God in verity, all three Persons in
verity.
Many ìformersî or ìtransitionersî have also
come here to vent. And so we must be careful
not to drive them back to White-ism? Yes, we
must be careful. But our carefulness must
come by way of kindness, gentleness,
sweetness, respect and humility -- AND NOT
BY MASKING THE TRUTH!
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 4:55 pm: | |
GOD'S GRACE
NOT SOLD IN STORES
WITH CROSSES ABOVE THE DOORS! |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 4:59 pm: | |
Pseudograce makes no changes within the
believer. Real grace makes a transformation
within the believer. |
Max
| | Posted on Saturday, January 13, 2001 - 5:01 pm: | |
He who denies the transformed life within
denies the Holy Spirit within! |
Max
| | Posted on Sunday, January 14, 2001 - 12:18 am: | |
Grace strikes us when we are in great pain
and restlessness.... Sometimes at that
moment a wave of light breaks into our
darkness, and it is as though a voice were
saying: "You are accepted."
--The Shaking of the Foundations [1948], ch.
19. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 589
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 9:35 pm: | |
The title of this thread is Psuedograce so I guess it is the most approiate for my comments. However, I did want to start a new thread and call it, They Just Don't Get It, but I don't know how to start a new thread. Do any of you ever look a current issue of The Signs of the Times Magazine? I occassionally grab one as there are several distribuation racks in my area offering them free. I have before me the current issue, the May 2004 edition. In the letters department isÝa letter from an astute lady who says in reply to a previous article, "... God sees me faultless, thanks to Jesus". The editor of The Signs reply is, " Anyone who thinks that justification and God's grace provide an excuse to keep on sinning doesn't understand justification and grace. Paul said, "Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" And his answer was, "Absoutely not!" (Rom. 6:1,2) THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO RECEIVE GOD'S GRACE ARE THOSE WHO ARE COMMITTED TO DEALING IN A BIBICAL WAY WITH THE SINS IN THEIR LIVES. PEOPLE WHO THINK GRACE GIVES THEM AN EXCUSE TO GO ON SINNING WHEN THEY HAVE NO DESIRE TO OVERCOME THEIR SINS (AND THEN MAKE NO EFFORT TO OVERCOME THEM) DON'T RECEIVE GRACE". emphasis mine. Now, isn't this about the most stupid statement on grace you have ever read? And, can we conclude that whoever wrote that then would believe EGW was not under grace since she obiviouselly was a liar and made no effort to change? Also, the lady whose letter got this response in the first place made no metion at all about a desire to keep sinning. She simply stated that she is glad God sees her as faultless, thanks to Jesus. One more comment while I'm in a ranting mood-of all the SDA publictions The Signs is the most trashy, the most non-Bibical. In this issue is an article titled Is America Sill One Nation Under God, written by the man who is president of the SDA Church-State Counsil and writes for Liberty Maazine, which is another sore spot with me because truthfully I don't believe for one minute Liberty Magazine or for that matter most SDA's give a rip about reigious liberty any more than the ACLU does. Then there is an article about Doug Batchelor, kind of a biography and then an aricle about a couple who had nearly nothing except a lot of bills and expenses, paid tithe and then got blessed with a one-hundrd dollar bill. I honestly can not understand how this magazine gets the funds to keep being published. Also today I got the current edition of Proclamation! Now there's a quality magazine that has articles well thought out and addresses its readers as if they have an i.q. above 100 and know how to use a dictionary. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 15
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 7:14 am: | |
Susan,
I'm glad you posted here as this is what is on my mind this morning also. It's got to be one of the hardest things...trying to tell those who love you about GRACE. I'm really struggling with a friend about "grace alone". But to every text I read, I've been getting the same type of response as what Signs wrote. It seems either I'm saying that it's "cheap grace" or that "once saved always saved" which gives me the liscense to go kill whoever I want. And as for EGW, don't I know that Moses was such a great sinner too, and Paul plagarized because he copied so much of the OT.
It breaks my heart because I see it so clearly, and my faith in Jesus only gets stronger, but to preserve the friendship, I can't come across too strongly, so when I see that the texts are going nowhere, I fall silent and she takes it as "I'm thinking." I know to her it sounds bizarre that I agree to listen to all sides of the texts, but then the way she explains them makes no sense to me and so I say it doesn't change, but there truly is a veil...and as I'm writing I realize that the only thing to do is pray that God will remove it in His time. Like that great song out right now, "If it takes 15 times, to hear about Jesus, for someone to believe...I may be the first, I may be the third, there may be years in between, what if I'm 15..."
But this has brought me up quick cause I was so enthusiastic to share with everyone what Jesus has just showed me, and now I can see that not everyone is going to jump at it, and not only that, but they're going to think that I'm lost. As she told me last night, that it makes her sick to read what I've given her.
I thank God everyday that He showed me mercy more abundantly than I deserved, and now I can see all the twisting that I used to do with the scripture to make it all fit.
And I got my first Proclamation just last week, and it was such a blessing! So much to "digest". It's funny now I too look at Signs and the Review & Herald and they seem so empty. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 343
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 7:17 am: | |
B has said the SDA church supports Buddists rights (via free legal support ...lawyers and such) because they're trying to ultimately support religious liberty for the small religions that can get "walked on" by the bigger religions. (thereby feeling that protects the SDAs) Is that true? |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 590
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 8:28 am: | |
Esther and others, Regarding grace-I recently heard a sermon on this very topic that was said simply enough that even I could understand it. Here goes-like the Pslamist we are to live with a prayful heart and attitude all the time. Of course, it would be rediculous to think we can be in kneeling prayer all the time because people were created to take care of business, go to work, fix dinner, go shopping, wash the car, etc., but the prayful heaft, attitude through the Holy Spirit is within us all the time. With that having been said, we know we are in a perpetual state of forgiveness so if we mess up we don't need to flip out thinking we have lost our salvation, lost out being under grace. The minister said he knows if grace could be revolked his grace would have been revolked nearly every time he has to drive on the LA freeways because he has a tendency to think bad toughts about the other incompentant drivers. But, we say the creeds and we say them from our most sincere hearts and in the creeds we ask forgiveness for known as well as unknown sins. The creeds pretty much have it all covered. Grace is ot a revolving door. It is not something a person can go in and out of. As Christians we are under constant, perpetual grace. Awhile back I was sitting through the SDA sermon at the local SDA church and the ministers sermon was about how to know if we are saved. It was truly the SDA version of it, that we really can't know and when we get our judgement we will find out if we are saved or not. On the way out I shook his hand and I told him, "Pastor, I know exactially when was saved. I was saved in 33 A.D." His response was to invite me to his office for a Bible study so he could teach me the correct belief on this. I did not go. |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 16
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 9:20 am: | |
Susan, Thanks for posting those thoughts. I will try using the revolving door concept and see where it gets me?
This may be the wrong place to ask, but I've searched and can't seem to come up with the answer in past threads...maybe someone can point me to the right conversation at least...
The one text that I have not been able to put peace to yet is Matt 5:17-19. I will post the email that I sent to the pastor at the evangelical free church here who I've been working with slowly.
So here it goes.
NASB:
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these COMMANDMENTS, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Now, I've cross referenced all the law references in this chapter with the original greek, and they are all: nomos (which I believe to be the entire law), except for the word in vs 19 which I capitalized. That is the greek: entole...which is specific to the 10 commandments. I understand that the law isn't abolished, but fulfilled in Jesus...but why, when there's so few references to entole in the NT does Jesus use it specifically here? I've also cross referenced every other word in these 3 verses and they all are acceptable translated, but didn't help me with this one question.
Anyway, even if you have a direction to send me looking, I'd appreciate any help you can give.
Thanks so much!
Esther
ENTOLE: (71 references)
1) an order, command, charge, precept, injunction
a) that which is prescribed to one by reason of his office
2) a commandment
a) a prescribed rule in accordance with which a thing is done
1) a precept relating to lineage, of the Mosaic precept concerning the priesthood
2) ethically used of the commandments in the Mosaic law or Jewish tradition
NOMOS: (197 references)
1) anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
a) of any law whatsoever
1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God
a) by the observance of which is approved of God
2) a precept or injunction
3) the rule of action prescribed by reason
b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 344
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 9:36 am: | |
Colleen did a wonderful article on that in Proclamation ... maybe 2 issues ago.
Couple of points, but some others can do far more justice to topics.
..the term 'law and prophets' refers to the whole of the old testament So, the commandments referenced is ALL of them, not just the 10....some SDAs seem to think it is talking merely about the 10 Cs.
...'Jesus came to fulfill'...so did he do what he came to do or not? If he succeeded at his purpose, he has fulfilled the law and the prophets. The purpose of the law, we are told elsewhere, was to show people they were sinners, but the law was never intended to make one righteous. Romans 1-3 talks about the status of man, those without the law as well as those with the law. And Galatians talks about those trying to make themselves "right" in the flesh rather than the Spirit. I don't have the references here right now, but I'll see what I can find at lunch and get back on if someone else doesn't beat me to it. The law certainly has purpose when used lawfully, but it has no value to the Christian who now under the law of Christ.
Looked up LAM's website...issue is Volume 4, Issue 4, August/September 2003
Until Heaven and Earth Disappear, Colleen Moore Tinker. (http://www.ratzlaf.com/downloads.htm)
It's not online yet, so perhaps you could request a copy. |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 345
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 9:39 am: | |
Just reread your post again, must have missed that one paragraph where you say pretty much what I said. Hopefully someone else can get info or I'll look it up later when I get to my notes at home. But still check out Colleen's article if possible. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 289
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 10:53 am: | |
Esther, I struggled with that text for at least a couple of years. There are a couple of main points that gradually became clear to me.
First, the law, as Meslissa explained above, is for the purpose of convincing people that they need a Savior. they need more than a list of behavior requirements; they need divine intervention. Once a person accepts Jesus as his Savior, the law has no more authority over him. The Holy Spirit becomes the Living Law written on his heart, and the Christ-follower answers to the much more minute instruction of the Spirit instead of to the general behaviors of the law.
Richard came up with an analogy that helped me with this idea a couple of years ago. If a person is born in Brazil, for example, Brazilian law has authority over him. If that person moves to the USA and becomes a naturalized citizen, Brazilian law no longer has any authority over him. Brazilian law still exists, to be sure, but it applies only to people living in and citizens of Brazil. When a person changes citizenship, he receives a change of law.
The 10 Commandments (as well as all the rest of the Torah and the prophets) still exist, but they have no authority over the Christ-follower. The Holy Spirit has brought us to life in Christ, and He is our law.
Further, the law and the prophets are what pointed to Christ. Colossians 2:17 states clearly that the laws of the Troah were shadows pointing to Christ. The reality is Jesus. If we had not had the prophets, if we had not had the entire metaphor of Israel's priestly system, temple system, sacrificial system--in short, the entire law that acted out the spiritual reality that God promises those who believe him--if we had not had all that, we would have no way to ascertain that Jesus is who He claimed to be.
If Jesus had come without the preparation of the law and the Israelites' traditions, the world would not have recognized Jesus or had any awareness of why He needed to come. Even today, it is by studying Jesus' life and the writings of Paul, Peter, the author of Hebrews, and also of Luke in the book of Acts and comparing what we learn there with the symbols of the Old Testament that we can see the evidence that Jesus is the Savior of the world, the Messiah, the Lamb slain from the creation of the world.
None of the law or the prophets will disappear until heaven and earth disappear, because until that day, humanity will need to have the evidence of the law and the prophets to recognize Jesus. The Old Testament is our proof if Jesus' identity.
Now Jesus' words make so much more sense to me: "I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." They must exist as long as there is time. They reveal God's plan and its long fulfillment. In Adventism we were programmed to see that clause, "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets," as a command to "keep" the law. Nothing could be more out of context! Jesus fulfilled the entire law and all the prophecies of a Savior, and they remain so we can see that He what he said He did.
I hope this helps.
Colleen |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 17
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 6:49 am: | |
Melissa & Colleen
Thanks for your thoughts. I will have to request the back issues of Proclamation. I'm almost resolved on this now...but I guess vs. 19 still gets me. I'm sorry if this seems elementary but I just can't seem to grasp why Jesus said that if anyone teaches others to break the commandments, he will be least in the kindgom of heaven. And whoever keeps them will be called great. I understand all the rest, that Jesus is the fulfillment of everything. My heart is grasping that EVERYTHING pointed to Him. Colleen, you especially made it clear with that analogy and explaination. It helps me understand why the law will always be around. And why also, those who don't have the veil lifted by God Himself, will never see that the law is not in authority.
I wrote Dale Ratzlaff too, and he informed me that he has a chapter in his book "Sabbath in Christ" that deals with this text. So I'm hoping somehow to put vs 19 to rest. |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 95
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 9:01 am: | |
I don't know (needless to say), but my instinct is that being "called least in the kingdom of heaven" is not a curse, it's just a tiny bit less of an awesome blessing. I'm also guessing that there will be a billion-way tie for last. 
I don't need to sit at God's right hand. To receive the glory of his blessing, and to share his company and love for all time, will be plenty good enough, even if I'm watching him from the cheap seats.
- Hoytster |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 292
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 10:11 am: | |
I agree, Hoytster. That thought came to me in an FAF Bible study one night about four years ago when one of our members was discussing this issue. Being least in the kingdom of heaven implies one is in the kingdom!
I think, though, that Jesus' intent here was saying that anyone who teaches that a moral life is not essential is teaching heresy. The reason this text is so troublesome for former Adventists is that we're not sure what to do with the fourth commandment: we're trying to understand why we don't have to keep it! In our minds, not "keeping" the fourth commandment equals "breaking" it.
The reality that has become clear to me, though, is that by abandoning the seventh day as sacred and embracing Jesus, we really are keeping the fourth commandment. We are embracing what the fourth commandment always foreshadowed: rest in Christ. That fourth commandment is a shadow of Christ (see Colossians 2:16-17). We now have the REAL JESUS, and we honor him. We live and walk by His Spirit and have His rest in our hearts every day. We no longer have rest symbolically in order to honor Jesus. We must surrender to him and allow him to put our hearts at rest.
The problem I had with verse 19 came from my Adventist interpretation of the language of the verse. I automatically thought that declaring the seventh day to be not intriniscally holy was teaching myself and others to "break the commandment". That understanding, however, is not reality. In giving up the seventh day, I've embraced Jesus instead, and He was what that command foreshadowed.
By abandoning the seventh-day and embracing Jesus we are not "breaking" the commandment; we are living and embracing its fulfillment, which Jesus accomplished.
Colleen |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 79
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 2:40 pm: | |
Going back to your analogy, if someone renounces their US citizenship and returns to Brazil, where does that leave them, spiritually speaking? |
Esther
Registered user
Username: Esther
Post Number: 18
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 7:05 am: | |
Thanks, guys... That really helped. I'm really having to work hard at thinking in a straight line rather than bringing all the SDA background into each text. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 296
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 11:41 am: | |
That's actually a good question, Praisegod. I've come to believe that our absolute security and also the possibility that a person can wither and die (like the seeds in the Matthew 13 parable) are both true. I don't know how, and I can't explain it; it just seems that both must be true, at least under certain conditions. Perhaps the conditions are those mentioned in the parable: the gospel sprouts and produced a healthy-looking plant in some people, but unseen to the observer, some of those plants are in rocky soil and do not put down roots, and some are still attached to the world, and that divided attachment starves out the gospel plant in the heart.
Paul said in Galatians 5:4, "You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you hve fallen way from grace." And yet he is saying that to Christians who have accepted what he called "another gospel," and he is calling them to repent.
I really do believe that once a person professes Christ, God pursues him relentlessly and confronts him again and again with the need to surrender. I also suspect that some people who profess Christ do so without a heart surrender. They appear to function and flourish for a time in the fellowship of beievers, but by and by their lack of true authenticity begins to eclipse the burst of Christian activity, and they may eventually fall away.
I really do not have a complete, thoroughly understood explanation for all of these questions. Perhaps this lack of complete insight is God's intent for us, and that's why only Jesus can be our judge. AT the same time I believe there is a paradox here--as truth always is. We who are bound by sinful flesh and time cannot see or understand all of the reality behind that paradox. |
Doc
Registered user
Username: Doc
Post Number: 78
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 2:40 am: | |
Great post Colleen,
I have come to pretty well the same conclusion myself. I think that we can have absolute assurance of salvation, but that assurance is based on not just being in Christ but remaining in Christ, which includes not allowing ourselves to be sidetracked or distracted by anything (e.g. the opposite extremes of legalism or antinomianism).
This is what John 15 says to me (the vine).
Something like that - I don't understand it totally either.
God bless,
Adrian
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