| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
PSEUDOGRACE (FALSE GRACE) ... PSEUDOGRACE is passive. It sits like a box of See's chocolates on a shelf in Nordstroms waiting for your pleasure. You may pick it up or leave it lie. Pseudogod doesn't care. Real grace is active. It stalks you like the Hound of Heaven, blinds you on your own road to Damascus, knocks you down to earth, and confronts you with Christ's freedom. Or it rooster-crows at you at sunrise in Pilate's courtyard where you are busy denying your Lord under a maiden's questioning, drives you out, and gives you the liberty to weep bitterly and repent. PSEUDOGRACE demands nothing. It is more than pleased for you say, "Sin is what sinners do. And since I'm a saved sinner, I'm going to continue in sin till Jesus Christ comes and THEN I'll be changed 'in the twinkling of an eye' into a non-sinner. And since non-sinning is what non-sinners do, I won't sin any more. Meanwhile? Well, I'll just keep right on with my adulterous affair every night and pray to God to forgive me every morning after." Real grace demands everything: repentance, obedience, effort, everything, but all done in the kingdom of heaven which is within every believer. PSEUDOGRACE is dead to the Holy Spirit and alive to sin. Real grace is dead to sin and alive to the Holy Spirit. More later, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
PSEUDOGRACE you must maintain yourself. You forever slip in and out, in and out, in and out. Every time you slip out of pseudograce you are without it and doomed to hell. So you have to slip back in. The nice thing is, it's not hard to do, it's easy. All you have to do is to ask forgiveness and you're back in pseudograce again. Under pseudograce you can lose your salvation. Real grace is maintained by Christ Himself. If you slip up, you're still in real grace. You're not lost as you are in pseudograce. You must still repent when you slip up, but you're not lost all over again when you slip. Under real grace you cannot lose your salvation. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max;-) Great thread! "PSEUDOGRACE is dead to the Holy Spirit and alive to sin." That may be the answer to the above delima (sp! My dictionary doesn't have the correct spelling of that word because I can't find it!) Hmmmmmmmmm...still thinking......Maryann PS...Did you come up with that all by yourself? | ||
| Max |
Maryann, I'll answer your PS first: You won't find "pseudograce" in any dictionary that I'm aware of. But on the other hand, if nobody ever invented any new words there would be no words in any dictionaries and no dictionaries either. Lexicographers don't invent new words. Hope I'm not coming across as snippy here. Blessings, | ||
| Max |
THE HOUND OF HEAVEN by Francis Thompson I fled Him down the nights and down the days I fled Him down the arches of the years I fled Him down the labyrinthine ways Of my own mind, and in the midst of tears I hid from him, and under running laughter. Up vistaed hopes I sped and shot precipitated Adown titanic glooms of chasmed hearts From those strong feet that followed, followed after But with unhurrying chase and unperturbed pace, Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, They beat, and a Voice beat, More instant than the feet: All things betray thee who betrayest me. I pleaded, outlaw-wise by many a hearted casement, curtained red, trellised with inter-twining charities, For though I knew His love who followed, Yet was I sore adread, lest having Him, I should have naught beside. But if one little casement parted wide, The gust of his approach would clash it to. Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue. Across the margin of the world I fled, And troubled the gold gateways of the stars, Smiting for shelter on their clanged bars, Fretted to dulcet jars and silvern chatter The pale ports of the moon. I said to Dawn -- be sudden, to Eve -- be soon, With thy young skiey blossoms heap me over From this tremendous Lover. Float thy vague veil about me lest He see. I tempted all His servitors but to find My own betrayal in their constancy, In faith to Him, their fickleness to me, Their traitorous trueness and their loyal deceit. To all swift things for swiftness did I sue, Clung to the whistling mane of every wind, But whether they swept, smoothly fleet, The long savannas of the blue, Or whether, thunder-driven, They clanged His chariot thwart a heaven, Plashy with flying lightnings round the spurn of their feet, Fear wist not to evade as Love wist to pursue. Still with unhurrying chase and unperturbed pace Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, Came on the following feet, and a Voice above their beat: Naught shelters thee who wilt not shelter Me. I sought no more that after which I strayed In face of Man or Maid. But still within the little children's' eyes Seems something, something that replies, They at least are for me, surely for me. But just as their young eyes grew sudden fair, With dawning answers there, Their angel plucked them from me by the hair. Come then, ye other children, Nature's Share with me, said I, your delicate fellowship. Let me greet you lip to lip, Let me twine with you caresses, Wantoning with our Lady Mother's vagrant tresses, Banqueting with her in her wind walled palace, Underneath her azured dais, Quaffing, as your taintless way is, From a chalice, lucent weeping out of the dayspring. So it was done. I in their delicate fellowship was one. Drew the bolt of Nature's secrecies, I knew all the swift importunings on the willful face of skies, I knew how the clouds arise, Spumed of the wild sea-snortings. All that's born or dies, Rose and drooped with, Made them shapers of mine own moods, or wailful, or Divine. With them joyed and was bereaven. I was heavy with the Even, when she lit her glimmering tapers round the day's dead sanctities. I laughed in the morning's eyes. I triumphed and I saddened with all weather, Heaven and I wept together, and its sweet tears were salt with mortal mine. Against the red throb of its sunset heart, I laid my own to beat And share commingling heat. But not by that, by that was eased my human smart. In vain my tears were wet on Heaven's grey cheek. For ah! we know what each other says, these things and I; In sound I speak, Their sound is but their stir, they speak by silences. Nature, poor step-dame, cannot slake my drouth. Let her, if she would owe me Drop yon blue-bosomed veil of sky And show me the breasts o' her tenderness. Never did any milk of hers once bless my thirsting mouth. Nigh and nigh draws the chase, with unperturbed pace Deliberate speed, majestic instancy, And past those noised feet, a Voice comes yet more fleet: Lo, naught contentest thee who content'st naught Me. Naked, I wait thy Love's uplifted stroke. My harness, piece by piece, thou'st hewn from me And smitten me to my knee, I am defenseless, utterly. I slept methinks, and awoke. And slowly gazing, find me stripped in sleep. In the rash lustihead of my young powers, I shook the pillaring hours, and pulled my life upon me. Grimed with smears, I stand amidst the dust o' the mounded years-- My mangled youth lies dead beneath the heap. My days have crackled and gone up in smoke, Have puffed and burst like sunstarts on a stream. Yeah, faileth now even dream the dreamer and the lute, the lutanist. Even the linked fantasies in whose blossomy twist, I swung the Earth, a trinket at my wrist, Have yielded, cords of all too weak account, For Earth, with heavy grief so overplussed. Ah! is thy Love indeed a weed, albeit an Amaranthine weed, Suffering no flowers except its own to mount? Ah! must, Designer Infinite, Ah! must thou char the wood 'ere thou canst limn with it ? My freshness spent its wavering shower i' the dust. And now my heart is as a broken fount, Wherein tear-drippings stagnate, spilt down ever From the dank thoughts that shiver upon the sighful branches of my mind. Such is. What is to be ? The pulp so bitter, how shall taste the rind ? I dimly guess what Time in mists confounds, Yet ever and anon, a trumpet sounds From the hid battlements of Eternity. Those shaken mists a space unsettle, Then round the half-glimpsed turrets, slowly wash again. But not 'ere Him who summoneth I first have seen, enwound With glooming robes purpureal; Cypress crowned. His name I know, and what his trumpet saith. Whether Man's Heart or Life it be that yield thee harvest, Must thy harvest fields be dunged with rotten death ? Now of that long pursuit, Comes at hand the bruit. That Voice is round me like a bursting Sea: And is thy Earth so marred, Shattered in shard on shard? Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest me. Strange, piteous, futile thing; Wherefore should any set thee love apart? Seeing none but I makes much of Naught (He said). And human love needs human meriting --- How hast thou merited, Of all Man's clotted clay, the dingiest clot. Alack! Thou knowest not How little worthy of any love thou art. Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee, Save me, save only me? All which I took from thee, I did'st but take, Not for thy harms, But just that thou might'st seek it in my arms. All which thy child's mistake fancies as lost, I have stored for thee at Home. Rise, clasp my hand, and come. Halts by me that Footfall. Is my gloom, after all, Shade of His hand, outstretched caressingly? Ah, Fondest, Blindest, Weakest, I am He whom thou seekest. Thou dravest Love from thee who dravest Me. | ||
| Cindy |
Morning Max! "Grace" to me is so good, I hate to see the term PSEUDO and GRACE put together. something just makes me cringe... You do have some good contrasts, though, in bringing out the assurance of real grace. I still think though, that Grace is free, it is unmerited favor, it does not DEMAND anything but grateful acceptance of Christ's Righteousness! Yes, after we take hold of this Grace, then we continue to live IN Grace; and the discipleship Jesus calls us to is strenuous... living open to the Holy Spirit's leadings. Got to get to work... Enjoyed "The Hound of Heaven"; I may post another good one of his later. Have a great day.... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Morning Cindy, I wish I had your tact and ability to demonstrate Christian love. I'm growing and learning, though. I too cringe when I think of affixing the prefix "pseudo-" to "grace." I did that deliberately. Here's the reason: It's true. There is such a thing as pseudograce. The apostle Jude described it using the concept of "changed grace." Here's Jude 3-4 NIV: "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who CHANGE the GRACE of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." If Jude can write about "changed grace" then I can -- and must -- write about pseudograce, for they are identical concepts. I really have no choice. For if I did not, I would not be "contending for the faith," as Jesus Christ through Jude has urged me to do. I have a question for you: If real grace does not demand anything but acceptance, then why does Jesus make the following statement? NIV Mark 8: 34 "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." To me, for me, this kind discipleship -- real discipleship as opposed to hypocritical discipleship -- is the only kind there is in the kingdom of heaven that is within and among all true believers. It is what real grace demands and "changed grace" or pseudograce does not -- and indeed cannot -- demand. It seems to me that you are in agreement with this when you say that "the discipleship Jesus calls us to is strenuous." Perhaps our differences are only semantical. God bless you, Cindy, I know your heart is pure gold. Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, No! It wasn't snippy;-) My PS was ment as a left handed compliment;-) And....You have seen all kinds of words I have invent here too;-)))) '-) | ||
| Max |
Cindy again, ^^Grace is free, it is unmerited favor, it does not DEMAND anything but grateful acceptance of Christ's Righteousness!^^ Of course we both agree that grace is free, unmerited favor. But can we also agree that once we accept it, it DEMANDS that we must lose our life in order to gain it? If it doesn't, then we are under no obligation by the Spirit to "put to death the misdeeds of the body." Romans 8:12-13 NIV. If it doesn't, then we have no cross to bear. And if that is so, then Christ doesn't know us, the Spirit is not in us, and whatever fruit our tree bears is not the fruit of the Spirit at all, but the fruit of a tree that will be cut down and burned. So isn't it real grace that demands all in all and false grace grace that demands nothing at all? Grace anew every morning like the dew, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
To all: The term "free grace" is not found in any of the following English translations of the Bible: NIV, KJV, NASB, RSV, DT, YLT, WE, NKJV Now think about our Madison Avenue drenched society. Think about all of the advertising of "free" everything on TV, in magazines, newspapers, radio, billboards, product packaging, etc. Think of the saying, "There's no such thing as a free lunch." Now review these two facts: 1. "Free grace" is not in the Bible. 2. Madison Avenue has so lobotomised our minds that the term "free" has become almost meaningless. In other words, when we see it we don't trust it. In view of these two realities, doesn't it make sense not to think of "free grace" as a box of Mary See's chocolate truffles adverized in a newspaper coupon? If only you will come down to Nordstroms Candy Department you can get a free box with four (count 'em), four whole chocolate truffles inside! You see, you can go down there with your coupon and pick up your "free" box -- and pay for it with guilt for not buying something else -- or you can ignore the ad and read the sports page or the funnies instead. REAL GRACE ISN'T LIKE THAT! Difference #1. You can't ignore God's true grace as you can a coupon for a free box of Mary See's chocolate truffles. For God's grace hunts you down and CONFRONTS you like a firing squad with Christ's self-sacrificing love as the bullets. Difference #2. You have to be the one to choose the box of truffles. It doesn't choose you! But God's real grace CHOOSES YOU. You don't choose it! Sorry about that. For Christ says, "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last." NIV John 15:16 Which brings us to: Difference #3. A box of Mary See's chocolate truffles does not bear fruit. Like pseudograce it can only be consumed (by our lusts) and then itexists no more. God's true grace ALWAYS bears the fruits of the Holy Spirit, fruit that lasts to the end of the world and throughout all eternity. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Perhaps the most fundamental difference between PSEUDOGRACE and true grace is this: True grace produces real changes in the believer's life, whereas pseudograce produces only pseudochanges. PSEUDOGRACE says, "The more the sap of the vine runs, the more evil fruit I bear." True grace says, "The more the Sap of the Vine runs, the more good fruit I bear." | ||
| Cindy |
Okay, Max... I had to laugh, (and feel fairly guilty), when you wrote about my "tact and Christian love"...I had just had (another!) argument/fight with my husband. He laughed when he read those words, too! :-)) You wrote: "I have a question for you, If real grace does not demand anything but acceptance, then why does Jesus make the following statement?" NIV Mark 8: 34 "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 35 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it." And also, you said, "Of course we both agree that grace is free, unmerited favor. But can we also agree that once we accept it, it DEMANDS that we must lose our life in order to gain it? If it doesn't, then we have no cross to bear. And if that is so, then Christ doesn't know us, the Spirit is not in us, and whatever fruit our tree bears is not the fruit of the Spirit at all, but the fruit of a tree that will be cut down and burned." So Max, here's what I wonder about Grace... Years and years ago, when I was just nineteen, I heard the Gospel message and BELIEVED its' wondrously good news, that Jesus had given me HIS perfect life, death and resurrection! He offered this "water of life" to me "freely" to me and I wanted it! Then, 20+ years went by of raising kids and enmeshing myself in Adventist "church" work...I did not have a real passion for Christ. About nine years ago, though, I began having a deep interest in studying to know God more. (Of course, this studying was 'dangerous' since it led to studying my way out of the Adventist mindset... :-)) ) My relationship with this whole Grace issue is so much different now...but my question is: Was I in Christ those 20 previous years from the time of my initial belief? Did Christ know me and was I His, despite my not being really interested in Him? Despite the fact that my belief was more of an "intellectual" or "head" belief? I would submit that I WAS! HIS GIFT, of TOTALLY SUFFICIENT GRACE, COVERED ME, in spite of my lack of passion for Him!! My intellectual belief and acceptance was all I had, but that was enough... I have no doubt that I had eternal life granted to me when I first drank of that "Water of Life"! I didn't really have crosses to bear those years, yet I held to my head belief of the Gospel. I would come back to the fact of John 3:16 that "whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." As Romans 3 says, "This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who BELIEVE. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, and are justified FREELY by His GRACE through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in His blood." I get excited and worked up just reading Romans again; I love it! This Grace IS Free! It is a scandal to those who want to work for it--to realize that we have a God who justifies the ungodly, who declares righteous the wicked! This Grace is called a GIFT in Romans 4: "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a GIFT, but as an OBLIGATION. However, to the man who does NOT work, but TRUSTS GOD WHO JUSTIFIES THE WICKED, his faith is credited as righteousness." Wonderful words! Absolute grace! Now, Max... I think we may even be in agreement! The "obligation" word comes in Romans 8, as you pointed out. First and foremost though, are the marvelous words: "Therefore, there is now NO CONDEMNATION for those who are IN CHRIST JESUS, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life SET ME FREE from the law of sin and death." We live in FREEDOM, not FEAR! Our obligation is to live in the reality (as you often say) of the Kingdom of Heaven now...as much loved children of God and co-heirs with Christ! I used to think life would be easier... (I'm listening to the Bee Gees right now on headphones while writing this--remember them?--the words to the song, "How do You Mend a Broken Heart?" just played, and I thought they really applied to my earlier life: "I can still feel the breeze that rustles through the trees, and misty memories of days gone by... I could never see TOMORROW; no one said a word about the SORROWS"... Now I see that, perhaps, difficult life situations started pulling me to cling more to Christ. Or did my interest in Christ incite the devil to send an onslaught of difficult life situations?.... Anyway, I see "discipleship" as a both strenuous, and yet wonderful, thing! It is hard to explain. I definitely see my problems as pushing me to rely on the Holy Spirits comfort, and ALWAYS on Christs' PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS for me; and yet, I get overwhelmed with them so much, too. STILL! I maintain that the gospel message must still be a message of DONE!! not DO! This was, and continues to be, the motivating factor in me wanting to pursue a closer understanding of God! I like how you brought out the "changed grace" concept from Jude: "They are godless men, who CHANGE the GRACE of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord." This is the flip side of Galatianism where Paul says: "I am astonished that you are so guickly deserting the one who callled you be the GRACE OF CHRIST and are turning to a DIFFERENT GOSPEL--which is really NO GOSPEL AT ALL. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to PERVERT THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST." To me, BOTH of these texts are showing the end result of DENYING CHRIST--licentious immorality... or up-tight legalism. Finlly, I still maintain that we must not be afraid of proclaiming Christ's Righteousness ALONE! The POWER and WISDOM of God are in this message of the CROSS, and if we worry too much about those who hear it taking advantage of it, we will start to dilute this wonderful message which has its' focus on Christ alone! This work of Christ must always be kept DISTINCT in our 'preaching'! Of course!, some will distort it; this always happens when the true Gospoel is preached! But the Holy Spirit will do His work (and in His time!) on the hearers of this message. I love what Oswald Chambers writes (I know I've posted this before.... :-)) "Re-state to yourself what you believe, then do away with as much of it as possible, and get back to the bedrock of the Cross of Christ. In external history the Cross is an infinitesimal thing; from the Bible point of view it is of more importance than all the empires of the world. If we get away from brooding on the tragedy of God upon the Cross in our preaching, it produces nothing. It does not convey the energy of God to man; it may be interesting, but it has no power. But preach the Cross, and the energy of God is let loose." Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Hi all! :-)) I thought this was interesting on the background on the "The Hound of Heaven" author, Francis Thompson... I've always liked the words "clinging Heaven by the hems".... They remind me of the bleeding woman and the healing power that went out from Christ to her by just touching "the edge of His cloak"...(see Luke 8). I'm quoting from Ravi Zacharias' book "Can Man Live Without God?": "Thompson lived a very turbulant life. Having left home in conflict, he lived the life of a vagabond on the streets of London rather than go to college, wandering through two areas of the city. During the day he would satisfy his opium addiction, fitting in among the losers and the lost in London's Charing Cross district. At night he would saunter over to the river Thames and lie down to sleep by its banks. Periodically he would pick up a newspaper from the overflowing trash in the area and scrounge for a piece of paper on which he would write a letter to the editor of the newspaper in response to some article he had read. The editor of the newspaper became frustrated and at his wit's end because he recognized the genius of a Milton behind the writing but there was never a return address. Throughout his constant and deliberate running from God, Thompson kept in touch with the Scriptures, and one passage began to haunt him--the story of Jacob, who spent most of his life on the run. The Scriptures tell of a dream Jacob had one night in which he saw a ladder between heaven and earth and the Lord Himself at the top of the ladder. When he awakened from that dream he said, 'Surely the LORD is in this place, and I was not aware of it' (Gen. 28:16). As Francis Thompson continued to dwell on that story, something remarkable happened, and what can only be called a dramatic conversion of his life took place. Listen to these incredible words: "O world invisible, we view thee, O world intangible, we touch thee, O world unknowable, we know thee, Inapprehensible, we clutch thee! Does the fish soar to find the ocean, The eagle plunge to find the air-- Do we ask of the stars in motion If they have rumor of thee there? Not where the wheeling systems darken, And our benumbed conceiving soars!-- The drift of pinions, would we hearken, Beats at our own clay-shuttered doors. The angels keep their ancient places;-- Turn but a stone, and start a wing! 'Tis ye, 'tis your estranged faces, That miss the many-splendoured thing. But when so sad thou canst not sadder Cry--and upon they so sore loss Shall shine the traffic of Jacob's ladder Pitched betwixt Heaven and Charing Cross. Yea, in the night, my Soul, my daughter, Cry--clinging Heaven by the hems; And lo, Christ walking on the water Not of Gennesaret, but Thames!" Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, Thanks so much for reciting the poem from Francis Thompson -- the man had a magical touch (magical in the sense of the three magi who fallowed the star to baby God Jesus). I'll address the other points you raised when I have more time, but I do want to say something about the term "free grace." I agree absolutely that God's grace is free and a gift with no strings attached. The problem I have is not with the biblical concept of "free grace" but with out consumer-oriented society's concept. Too often we think of "free grace" as something that God has on display and we can "take it or leave it." And that concept is simply not scriptural. Free grace comes to us at God's discretion, not ours. God is sovereign and in control, we're not. To my mind this scriptural reality explains why you have questions about whether or not you were saved while you were in Adventism. I agree that you were, but only because of this: Before she was born I, Yaweh, loved Cindy and before he was born I hated Hitler. Just as Scripture says, before they were born I loved Jacob and hated Esau. Same thing exactly. You see, grace is free, yes, but it is our sovereign Lord who determines the whos, whats, whens, wheres, whys and hows -- not us in our intellectual arrogance and "tower of Babel" construction projects. There is deep mystery here. God is far beyond our space probes and microscopes, and yet present intimately with us at the same time. It is therefore up to us to respect another spiritual reality: God's thoughts and ways are higher than ours as the heavens are higher than the earth. God's blessings, | ||
| Max |
CHALLENGE: GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON WHY GOD CHOSE TO SAVE PEOPLE BY REAL GRACE = FREE GRACE = UNMERITED FAVOR ANSWER: SO THAT THEY COULD DO GOOD WORKS! ^^There are two formulas that are suggested for salvation. One is the basic Christian formula. The other is the one often promoted by the cults: [1] FAITH IN CHRIST = SALVAITON + GOOD WORKS [2] FAITH IN CHRIST + GOOD WORKS = SALVATION In Ephesians 2:8-10, Paul explains that salvation is a gift of God based on faith. But even the faith itself comes from God. Then, AFTER salvation come good works. Why are people saved by God's unmerited grace? One reason, Paul says, is TO DO GOOD WORKS. Salvation caused mankind to become new creatures in Christ "unto good works." Christians WILL do good works, not because they must do so to gain salvatin, rather it has become their new nature. Because they have become new creatures in Christ, they will desire to do good works. Hence, the first formula is biblical.^^ ************************* Excerpted from Dale Ratzlaff, THE TRUTH ABOUT SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST ěTRUTHî: QUESTIONS TO ASK YOUR ADVENTIST FRIENDS. Entire book available from: LIFE ASSURANCE MINISTRIES P.O. Box 11587 Glendale AZ 85318 Phone 623.572.9549 for information Phone 800.355.7073 for orders only Fax 623.572.3035 E-mail dale@ratzlaf.com Website www.ratzlaf.com ************************* WRONG ANSWER: [2] FAITH IN CHRIST + GOOD WORKS = SALVATION RIGHT ANSWER: [1] FAITH IN CHRIST = SALVATION + GOOD WORKS Max of the Cross | ||
| George |
Max. Are faith and belief one and the same thing? George | ||
| Colleentinker |
I realize that this might be a bit off the current subject, but I wanted to mention something I read in Bonhoeffer's "The Cost of Discipleship" the other day. He said we cannot know what sin is until we are born from above. I really believe that he's right. He further says that when Christ calls us, we must follow him in order to get to a place where we can believe. He referred to Peter, Andrew, John and James as examples of people who followed Jesus when he called them before they had a chance to understand and believe him from an intellectual perspective. Bonhoeffer referred to the rich young ruler who refused to answer the call of Jesus and went away, never placing himself in a position of being able to believe. He believed the law and he believed in righteous living and he even believed Jesus was a compelling rabbi, but he couldn't follow Jesus and give up what he held dear. I really do not believe that the subtleties of what sin is and what believe and faith are become clear if we perch just short of being willing to give up whatever we hold close to our hearts for the sake of following the call of Christ. Jesus' call to us is clear and compelling; we all know when we hear him calling. And we all hear him calling in a different way. We are all asked to give up different things and to serve him in different ways. Some of us have to give up "not knowing" the truth about ourselves and our loved ones. Some of us have to give up our careers and our professional dreams. Some of us have to give up our picture of ourselves as wise or intellectual or philanthropic and become "unrecognized". Some of us have to give up family ties and live with anger and shunning. Some of us have to give up all sorts of "escapism". But all of us receive a new life and and a new assignment from our Lord Jesus. All of us receive a life we could never have imagined, and that life will include love and peace and identity and redemption from our wounds. Jesus gives all of us meaning, and in him we discover reality that we never imagined. No amount of mental dissecting will ever bring us to a place of understanding. Only following the call of Christ will bring that. And each of us has to say "yes" to that call every day! Praising Jesus for his faithfulness, Colleen | ||
| George |
Colleen, I understand much of what you have said, but didn't Christ say, when ask what had to be done to be saved, "believe"? He didn't say follow me around untill you can believe. What do you think? George | ||
| Max |
Hello George, ^^Are faith and belief one and the same thing?^^ Not being "the answer man," I think not, not exactly. According to my dictionary "belief" / "believe" has at least two meanings: "believing" meaning #1: trusting equals having faith. "believing" meaning #2: holding an opinion based on examination of evidence does not equal faith. It means being convinced of the factuality of something based on the weight of evidence. No loving trust is involved, only cold, calculating intellectualization or rationalization. In the New Testament Paul consistently uses "believe" with meaning #1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Meaning lovingly trust Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior. Meaning to have "heart faith." But James uses it with meaning #2 ("the devils believe and tremble"). They have no "heart faith," only "head faith." So depending on the context, faith and belief can mean one and the same thing. On the other hand, again depending on the context, they can mean two different things. When the context indicates that belief = TRUST, then belief and faith are one and the same thing: belief = trust = faith. But when the context indicates that belief = OPINION, then they are not one and the same thing: belief equals opinion, but does not equal faith. | ||
| Patti |
George, Soteriologically speaking, belief = faith. May God continually remind you of His great grace in accepting you in Christ Jesus, Patti |
