| Author |
Message |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 09, 2003 - 9:29 pm: |     |
Thanks all for your suggestions, I certainly appreciate all the help I can get at this time. While admitting I am a bit confused right now, I would like to be understood. I do not lack the Holy Spirit and am firmly planted in the grace of Jesus Christ. I have read Galations many times and Jesus is my beautiful, wonderful savior. If you want me to talk about salvation in Christ alone I can and will love to do so at length. But I believe that the Ten Commandments were not abolished (or fulfilled) at the cross. Think about that for a minute. Did Christ fulfill the Sabbath-keeping command? Some say yes, some say no. I am not criticizing or judging those who say yes, yet I know the Adventists do and are wrong to do so. Yet I feel just as wronged by my born-again friends who cannot understand the position of trying to uphold the TC's. My position is that once a person has laid down all and surrendered to Christ they are saved, it is up to them to decipher the right path with the help of the Word, the HS and other Christians. If you can show me clear scripture that says that Christ has nailed the TC's to the cross then fine, I will surely submit to the word of God. For example;
Col 2:13-17 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
To me this clearly says 2 things; 1)that Jesus Christ fulfilled the sacrificial system of redemption, and 2)that saved Christians do not have to fear the judgment ---> even if they are not completely perfect.
Does it say the Sabbath day is not to be observed anymore? Well if you think so then fine, but what about me, must I believe as you do? Do I have to feel less spiritual because I interpret that another way?
Sorry about the ranting, but I am frustrated. Trying to uphold the TC's does not necessarily negate Salvation by Christ alone, although it would if I was doing so to improve on or keep my salvation. I do so only because I believe the TC's are still valid and I want to respond to what my Lord has commanded (of couse their are other important things asked of us also such as spreading the Word).
Show me scripturally where the Word says clearly that the TC's were fulfilled in Christ and I will be able to watch football on Saturday without feeling guilty (remember that this guilt does not affect my assurance in Christ).
Now that I have asked of this from you all, I will go and read some of the suggested things from previous posts -- thanks so much.
I may change my mind some day, but I have put a lot of prayer and study into this already. Lord Jesus, please hlep me to look at this anew as though it were for the first time and may your Holy Spirit guide me and give me clear understanding, Amen |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 7:03 am: | |
Jesus own words were that he came to FULFILL the law and the prophets (Matthew 5-7). So, did he succeed at his purpose? Personally, if I let myself off thinking that the 10 commandments were all I had to do, I'd have it easy. In that same sermon on the mount, Jesus raises the high bar considerably. The law says don't murder, but he says don't be angry. The law says don't commit adultery, but he says don't lust. You've received many good study references. I hope you'll consider some of them. We are all strengthened when we allow iron to sharpen iron.
It is also noteworthy to me that of all the sins the new covenant identifies, sabbathbreaking is never one of them. When Christianity is spread to the gentiles, there is never any instructions regarding sabbath observance. The fact that the Sabbath is tied to the people he rescued from slavery in Egypt further limits its applications to me. Regardless, Romans 14 says not to judge a man in regards to a holy day, so I hope you hear that here (and maybe even question why the statement is made if holy day observance ... lack of ... is a sin??). And you have rightly found that there is no mention of worship in regards to a holy day in the 10 commandments themselves.
Frankly, there are many issues that Christians with good intentions and a sincere heart to understand disagree about. But Christ prayed for our unity. And regardless of our disagreements, he is interested in our hearts and our obedience to him. If I am following him the best I know how, and am trying to comprehend where he leads me for my life and allow him to guide my directions, that is what he asks of us. Hopefully as I realize that I don't know it all, and frankly God does not fit into any box I can conceive, then my life will be full of growth experiences. The things I "knew" yesterday may be different tomorrow as God leads my life, but he is still Lord of ALL, even my theologies. Perhaps you will never come to the conclusions those here have. Don't let it be a source of division in the body. We will be spending eternity together, afterall. We don't reflect Christ well when we do that either. Paul (I think) said all his works were as filthy rags in relations to Christ. Does that mean I don't try? no. Neither does it mean I beat myself up daily for my shortcomings. It does mean I accept who I am and where my real righteousness comes from. When we all realize that, I think we'll look at each other more eye to eye (rather than down on each other).
May we all truly reflect Christ, which is the only beauty in any of us. Lord, make us one. |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 7:33 am: | |
Imunity, as someone else suggested above, I don't think many on this board would even want to tell you that you must worship on a particular day or not worship on a particular day or rest on a particular day over another. If you are fully convinced in your own mind that that one day is more special than another, then I think you should follow your conscience on this point. I would NOT recommend watching football on Saturday if this sears your conscience. I think all that the posters on this board are wanting to do is to provide you with some scriptural references and some studies that may make it more clear why there are two views of this issue and thereby allow you to make up your own mind. If after investigating all the evidence on all sides you still are fully convinced in your own mind that one day is more holy than another, then that's just fine. I love you as a brother in Christ either way, no matter what day you choose to rest on or worship on. We donít have to agree on every point of doctrine. Please, make up your own mind on this, then follow that conviction and know that we support you in following your convictions.
I do have to insert one caution here. The request for one clear verse that states the Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ seems similar to the demands of some groups for one clear verse that teaches the Trinity. It needs to be understood that broad themes like the Sabbath and God's Trinitarian nature run throughout scripture. Concepts such as the nature of God or how He has fulfilled the law and the prophets can make for fascinating and engrossing studies over long periods of time. These are not concepts that can be, or should be, fully comprehended through a couple of proof texts. I think that's why most have suggested a number of study resources and large sections of scripture rather than just attempting to post a bunch of proof texts here on this forum. These are suggestions are sincere attempts to answer you questions the best way possible. You may study these resources and still come away with a different opinion and thatís okay. But at least we will all have a common knowledge base upon which a discussion can be built and each of us will understand the thinking of the other better. Maybe some of your questions will be answered in the process as well.
Finally, I want to assure you that no one is suggesting you are not in-filled with the Holy Spirit. I think what you are hearing is the echo of our own experiences. I can tell you that I have believed in God all my life and always wanted to do the right thing (though I strayed far at times). I believe the Holy Spirit was always with me and always working with me. It's just that I never really experienced the awesome power and wonder of having the Holy Spirit bring things suddenly to mind and highlight parts of scripture with a spotlight for me until I began this spiritual journey out of Adventism. I never felt the intimacy with Christ that I now feel. I now find it such a privilege to study scripture and pray for the guidance of the Spirit to see Jesus Christ in all I read. It's such an awesome experience. Perhaps this is something you have experienced for a long time or all your life. If so, I rejoice with you. Just understand that it is only natural for those of us who are babies in the Spirit filled walk to want to encourage all to pray for understanding as they study. Certainly no insult or sleight is intended by this encouragement.
Just know that you are welcome here no matter what day you worship and rest or your stance on the Decalogue. We are all brothers and sisters, not because of our understanding of law or covenants, but because of our elder brother, Jesus Christ.
With Christian love,
Chris Lee |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 9:44 am: | |
Immunity,
You are going to be just fine. You are right where I was 2 years ago. No, it doesn't matter if you agree with me or anyone else, what matters is that you continue to seek the Lord just as you are and follow Him.
As far as football goes, that was a weird thing for me too, I didn't know what to do with Saturday. When I asked I heard, "In all you do, do it to the glory of God." That pretty much cleared it up for me. Hebrews 4 says that our rest is "Today" so, I understand that to mean that it is a permanent rest, not bound by time, that I am to do all, everyday to the glory of God. I no longer see my life as secular/religious. It's just all the same everyday.
I think Paul knew people were going to be at different places with this and that is why he said so clearly in Romans 14, "Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."
Glad to have you here!
Sabra |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 7:32 pm: | |
Thanks all, I will continue to pray for understanding and guidance. I have checked out "The Gospel and The Covenants" by Pastor J. Mark Martin at http://www.sdaoutreach.org as suggested by Chris and will check out the others. I also have a very studious baptist fried who has promised to go through some of the SDA doctrine with me also.
Pastor Martin's message will take some thought as I could not get past the first statement of the outline without disagreement. He says;
The Ten Commandment Law was not given before Sinai. Deut. 5:2-3 says, "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. The Lord did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us." Then he gives the Ten Commandments in vss. 6-22.
Sure, the TCís were not made a covenantal condition until Mt. Sanai, but can you say that they were not in effect prior to Mt. Sanai? Well letís just look at two of them;
Commandment # 6 - You shall not murder. Was this not demonstrated to be in effect when Cain killed Abel?
Commandment #4 ń Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it Holy. Was this not established at creation and still in observance (or at least re-established) while the Isrealites were yet wandering (before Mt. Sinai), as is evident in Exodus 16:26-30? - ěSix days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.î . . . So the people rested on the seventh day.î
To respond to some of the lasts posts;
Melissa,
Yes I realize that there is much more commanded of us than the TC's and that the Lord raised the bar delivering the sermon on the mount. Much can be said about that sermon and one thing is for sure that Jesus was pointing out how impossible it is going to be for those who wish to attain perfection. He did not however say not to do your best.
"of all the sins the new covenant identifies, sabbathbreaking is never one of them." That is a good one, actually the only point I have heard so far that I have not heard before, I will look this one up and give it some serious thought.
"When Christianity is spread to the gentiles, there is never any instructions regarding sabbath observance." I think you may be right there but I am pretty sure that there are references of the apostles observing the Sabbath in Acts.
"The fact that the Sabbath is tied to the people he rescued from slavery in Egypt" Is not the Sabbath tied to Creation first and foremost?
"Don't let it be a source of division in the body." This is not my intention. I just want to hold on to what I believe without criticism from the Adventists or other Protestants, until it can be proven otherwise.
Chris,
"I love you as a brother in Christ either way, no matter what day you choose to rest on or worship on. We donít have to agree on every point of doctrine." Thanks so much, I needed that. I will get off the Sabbath issue soon and onto bigger and better things, I just had to let you know who I am and this is one thing I will always do... search for that deeper relationship with my Creator and Savior through prayer, study, and interaction with others in Christ. I too have that intimate relationship with Jesus. And I do not take what others are saying negatively, I know that love is their motive.
Thankyou also Sabra, Leigh, Thomas(1), Jerry, Colleentinker, Hoytster, and others if I missed you, this has been awesome fellowship and I plan to keep you up to date on what is going on in my walk as well as learn a bit about some of yours.
"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning." John 15:26,27
God Bless!
Imunity |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 8:23 pm: | |
Immunity,
A hearty FAF welcome! A common thought in Adventism is that the Decalogue is the ultimate moral compass for all time and eternity. Every revelation of God which comes before Christ is preliminary, veiled, and partial. A close look at the Ten Commandments will reveal that they were NOT sufficient even for those that lived under the Old Covenant. For example, if it were possible to perfectly observe the Ten Commandments, one could still be a wife beater, a practicing homosexual, stingy, selfish, without compassion, ungrateful, arrogant, intemperate, rude, polygamist, slave owner, et cetera. Furthermore, there is no biblical passage which declares that the Ten Commandments are God's Law for all men for all time.
The Ten Commandments themselves share the inadequacies which characterize the entire Old Testament. As the Apostle Paul says in 2 Corinthians 3, the revelation given in the old covenant was glorious, but its glory has been rendered obsolete by the surpassing glory of the greater revelation given in Christ. Rather than being a final statement of the will of God, the Ten Commandments are actually an inadequate expression of Christian morality. All that the Law was to Judaism, Christ is to the New Testament community. He is the living Torah, who supersedes the authority of Moses (Matt. 5; 12:1-12). The New Testament has a new covenant, a new mountain, a new Teacher and a new law.
Christian behavior is determined by Christ--his person, his work and his teaching. This new revelation of God's Law comes out of Zion rather than from Sinai in fulfillment of what the prophets declared would take place in the new age of the Messiah (Isaiah 2:1-51).
Even the Fourth Commandment, without the Extended Laws, did not instruct the Hebrew people in how to observe the Sabbath. The Decalogue merely mandated a day off from work.
In awe of His grace,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 9:15 pm: | |
Imunity,
My apologies for misspelling your name in my post above. Maybe I should blame my 50+ eyes.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 9:32 pm: | |
Hi Dennis, I know the Adventists err on the side of making too much of the Decalogue but did Christ want us to reduce the ten commandments to ancient history? The ten commandments were basic but there is a power in its simplicity. Jesus simplified them as well in Luke 10:27;
He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[Lev. 19:18] "
One of the amazing beauties of the Bible is that you can find revelation in it's simplicity and yet it is impossible to plum the depth of the knowledge it contains.
I for one have found a deeper faith in Christ by studying the Old Testament. It is kind of like God gave us a bit more understanding all along the way rather than coming down to correct all the mistakes (don't jump on me for that - it is the best quick summary I can think of at the moment).
God Bless!
Imunity |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 9:36 pm: | |
Dennis, actually you spelled the word right... I had been using the online name for 3 years when I realized I was spelling it wrong so I just kept on with the wrong spelling :-) |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 7:05 am: | |
Welcome Imunity, so glad you have found this place.
Imunity, really Christ did not simply the commandments in the passage you quoted, I think that it is more true that He expanded them so that they covered the things that Dennis listed above, and very much more. We learn from I Tim. 1:9-11 that the "law is for lawbreakers". And from II Cor. 3:6-18 that "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life". The dictates of the 10 were to take us to Christ, when we come to Christ, the Spirit comes to live in us, and only then are we enabled to live beyond the law.
Galatians, as everyone has said, is a crucial book in understanding the whole subject of the law. And it would help you to read it all in one setting, rather than chapter by chapter over several days. The whole flow of thought comes thru much better that way.
In chapter 2 we real that we are justified by faith in Christ only. That thru the law, we die to the law.
In chapter 3 we learn that Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law. That promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed. And that the law only came 430 years after the covenant. And that the law was given "until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come." That before Crhist, we were held prisoners by the law. And that the law was but in charge to lead us to Christ to be justified by faith. And that now that faith has come we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
This is a hugely important passage. The word that is usually translated "tutor" in this passage is "paidagogos". The was taken from Greek culture. A paidagogos was usually a trusted household servant who was given the oversight of the master's son. The son was very much "under" a slave. (The paidagogos is pictured in the art of the time as carrying a stick and leading the child.) He was not a teacher, his job was to take the son to the teacher. When the son reached maturity, the age of responsibility, the paidagogos job was ended.
The thread of thought continues into chapter 4. When the heir is a child, he is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by the father. Then in v. 9, we are told that now that we are known by God we don't need to turn back to the "weak and miserable principles" to be enslaved again.
The instruction continues that one covenant came from Mount Sinai (remember this is where the law was given). But we are under the covenant that was established before the law.
The thread goes on into chapter 5 where we are told in v. 18 to be "lead by the spirit" and then we are not under the law. This is the reminder of the paidagogos agains. And it continues into chapter 6 where we are told "carry each other's burdens and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ". Can you see that this command goes far beyond the narrow instruction of the 10?
As was pointed out above,just looking up scriptures that mention "law" or "commandments" will only give you part of the picture. Your study must include looking up the passages that address the "covenants" as well. Otherwise, you are only going to be focusing on a small section of the picture. It is like looking at the painting of Mona Lisa and only seeing her nose or collar.
Anyway, blessings on your journey.
And before I close this, let me remind you of some things as you search for a church body.
What we have all found as that we have to remember who God is:
-a perfect father who desires to give good gifts to His children
-a God who is expansive in His love
-a God who is liberal in grace
-able to sepeak the earth into being
-the one who sustains all life
-the one who has promised to give wisdom when we have none
-has promised he will never leave us alone
-has commanded us to not forsake assembling together
-has declared himself to be our provider (not just for material needs, but spiritual as well)
-and that he plants the lonely in families
If He IS the God who is all these things, then He DOES have a church body for us. Many of us have had to reach the point in our search for a church where we have had to realize that if we were having a problem finding that church, then the problem has to be on our end. HE is faithful to be who He said He is and to do what He has said He would do. The problem was on our end of hearing Him.
For myself, this was one prod toward re-examining the whole issue of the sabbath question. See God has huge numbers of His children out there who are worshipping on a day other than the 7th. I had to look at those folks and realize that, rather than abandoning them, ignoring their prayers, staying absent from their services, or, one would expect maybe even slaying the pastors who are not speaking what I thought was "truth", he was instead blessing these people.
It has been true all through the history of the church. Those churches that are worshipping on Sunday are the churches that are experiencing growth. I don't mean just in numbers, but spiritual growth.
They are the places where there is abundant joy in following the Lord, where huge numbers are being saved, where lives are being changed, addictions are being left behind, where there is a passion to see the lost saved.
It didn't add up to me. If what I was doing was so right, then God, the one who was all powerful, all sufficient, able to do ANYTHING He wanted, should have been able to see that the majority of His children were following this one doctrine that was so important.
He was able to get His scriptures written down the way He wanted them to. He got that reformation thing going waaay back there. Yet here was this one issue that I believe He had considered so important for all time that He had written it down in stone, yet He had somehow slipped up and NOT taught this one important thing to His children. I could clearly see, from the relationships I had with believers who were worshipping on Sunday that they had a heartfelt committment to God. Many of them HAD examined the sabbath issue, rejected it, and here God was still a vibrant part of their lives.
It really doesn't fit the teachings of sabbatarianism does it? |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 8:01 am: | |
Hi Lydell, man you are a straight shooter :-)
Yes I have struggled with the "it seems to be greener on the other side of the fence" aspect as well. I have experienced all blends of born again churches and groups, and quite frankly I was more "comfortable" with the SDA's. Second to that was the Baptist church I joined and was member in for thre years that was very spirited in worship but conservative in that they shunned charismmatic practices such as speaking in tongues. My wife being of Catholic background had an even harder time with the charismatics than I did.
That being said, I understand and believe every word of what you said, except this one thing. Why does not being "under the law" equal "the law is dead". I know it seems like a natural jump but I had to examine this closely because I simply was seeing too much evidence that born again Christians were, this is going to sound bad I know but I really am not being judgmental, well it was like they had been freed to do almost anything they wish.
Yes it is wrong to make more out of the law than grace, or to think that the law can somehow add to grace, but why does grace have to kill the law. Anyway, through my many discussions and extensive searching, I have not yet found any reason to believe that the ten commandment law is dead.
What the Adventists taught me about Christ fulfilling only the sacrificial system of law is the only thing I can make sense of so far.
Melissa gave me something new to ponder though and I am searching this one out, she said; "It is also noteworthy to me that of all the sins the new covenant identifies, sabbathbreaking is never one of them."
You did hit a chord when you mentioned that if you can't find a Church maybe the examine yourself. I have done that a lot, I know that I have faults.I can come across quite harsh and uncaring at times when I am not meaning to be and then I feel bad after. My wife and I both have a bit of a stubborn side to us. But we really have tried to fit in to the various churches we have attended. Both of us have offered our services in the worship service and in the field. It hurts to just talk about this so let me just say that I have had to let the whole thing go and put my trust in Jesus. If He wants me in a church body He will show me the way.
Love in Christ
Imunity |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 8:02 am: | |
Okay, here I am with more online resources, but this one is for everyone and it's all free (streaming audio or downloadable mp3 files, study guides, and transcripts)!!! This is the finest series I've ever heard on Galations. The pastor, Bryan Clarke, has no connection that I know of to Adventism, but I often felt like he was speaking to me. These sermons were preached at Lincoln Berean in Lincoln, NE and were instrumental in 9 adults and 7 children coming out of Adventism that I know of (I count myself among them). I've since sought other resources on Galations, but have found no finer exegetical study to date. You can go here http://www.lincolnberean.org/Resources/ResourceIndex/year2002.htm then scroll down to 9/01/02, then download to your hearts content. I can't recommend this series enough. Enjoy!
Chris Lee |
Melissa (Melissa)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
Imunity: you said: ěI think you may be right there but I am pretty sure that there are references of the apostles observing the Sabbath in Acts.î
Be careful how you read Acts. The fact that Luke refers to the Sabbath day does not mean that activities on that day are ěkeepingî a holy day. Other books talk about activities on the first day of the week, but no one seems to find them commanded activities for the first day of the week. My church has just spent 10 + months studying Acts, and the one thing I picked up on was that Paul had a particular habit. Christ told them to go to the Jews first...and thatís what he did. Every town he went into, he went to the Jews first. Usually at the synagogue, if there was one. He would try to preach Christ to them until he was kicked out. He was not merely there to observe and participate in worship, he was there to point them to Christ. After he got kicked out of the synagogues, usually 3 weeks or so, he went to the gentiles where it says he reasoned with them daily. It is very dangerous, in my opinion, to add words that are not there. The scripture says CLEARLY that Paul was keeping his CUSTOM when going to the synagogue on the sabbath:
Acts 17:1 - 3 ěNow when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the Jews. Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for 3 Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, ěThis Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.îî
Luke 4:16 speaks of Jesus in the same way: ěSo He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.î
Contrast that with what Luke says of the Sabbath commandment: Luke 23:55-56 ěAnd the women who had come with him from Galilee followed after, and they observed the tomb and how His body was laid. Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.î
That verse in Luke 23 is the only one in the gospels or entire new testament that refer to keeping the Sabbath commandment. It was about ěrestî, not worship. So, though the Jews developed a custom of going to synagogues every 7th day (I think during the intertestamental time period if I remember my jewish history correctly), it seems to be a stretch to me to say it is required by the commandment.
Even if Jesus was ěkeepingî a holy day, he also observed passover and even hannukkah (festival of dedication).
In regards to the Sabbath being a creation ordinance, it is again adding words that are not in scripture. The word ěSabbathî is not in Genesis any where. The fact God patterned the sabbath after his creation week and made a rest day every 7th day is evident, but to say it was a commandment to man from creation is an assumption. Scripture says the first ěsabbathî was in Exodus 16. To say there is a ěrightî 7th day is again adding meaning that I donít read in scripture. Maybe itís there. To take it a step further and say it is a sin to worship God on any day but Saturday is plain not supported in scripture. God says whenever 2 or 3 are gathered to gether in his name, there he is in their midst ... it doesnít limit it to say ěas long as itís on Saturdayî. I know thatís not your point, Iím just throwing it in as an editorial comment.
I wondered if your name was short for ěIím unityî, though I did wonder if it was immunity too. I have been in protestant churches for 40 years. I have never known anyone to think the jewish Sabbath was Sunday or ridiculed anyone for the day they went to church. I doubt many people have really thought God cared what day they worshipped him if it was sincere worship. Fact is, many churches in my area are adding Saturday services to handle the crowds and the changing lifestyles of people who donít always get Sundays off any more. Itís a real burr under my saddle when people make blanket statements about the whole because of the actions of a few, particularly when it concerns the sincerity of my faith. So, I hope this doesnít sound too defensive. But as I believe the others here have, I have personally spent hours studying and praying about this issue in particular. What I know first and foremost is that God picked the church I am in. My first Sunday there, he whispered in my left ear that this was what I had been searching for. It is not a perfect church, there are still sinners in it. But they have a sincere desire to worship and serve God. Do they make mistakes? yes. Are they still growing? yes. Do they know it all? no. Thatís why we are still growing. But they truly seek to honor God and his word, and that is what I admire most.
Continue seeking God and he will answer all your questions in his time. Iíve heard from many on this sight that studying out these things has given them a closeness to God that they hadnít experienced otherwise. On the issue of the Sabbath alone, my personal notes (typed and single space) cover 50 pages and the bulk of that is copying the text of each scripture and categorizing them by usage. Only after I understood the context of each passage did I attempt to make conclusions about the whole. I still check back to that study from time to time to see if the Lord has anything new for me there. I worked really hard to find what scripture alone without too many outside assumptions (try as I did to eliminate all, Iím sure some crept in). As you said, in His time, all will be revealed. And I don't know that any of us aren't trying to live a life pleasing to God. (as much as you can tell from what's been posted here...)
My pastor told a story a few months ago that he had struggled with the particular text for the day 10 years earlier. He had called several pastor friends for their understanding, but he couldnít see it. So, he preached what he understood from the scripture. He said now, 10 years later, he could see the error of what he taught (but unfortunately those sermon tapes are still out there and you canít pull them back.) So, he is now teaching what the scripture says to him at this growth point in his life, even though itís different than before. I have immense respect for a pastor that is growing and can acknowledge that in ignorance he has preached amiss. It makes me free to not be perfect in all my understandings as well, and also able to allow the Spirit to teach me in HIS time. It also gives me an example to say I did not always understand that as I do now. God takes me where I am and moves from there. That is very comforting. And He's not as impatient as I am.
I did not grow up Adventist and have only been exposed to it through the last 4 years. So, a lot of the things they teach are still foreign to me.
I know where Iíve been and know where I am today, but only God knows my future. Reality is, we are ALL still learning. Regardless of what any of us says, seek the Lord. He is faithful and will answer all your questions.
God bless you in your studies. |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
Melissa, I am encouraged that there are Christians like you that have spent so much serious time searching for the truth on this matter.
You have opened up a small crack in my thinking again... I always thought that where it says "as was their custom" surely meant their current custom, maybe it does mean their previous custom. Combined with what you said before about Sabbath-breaking not being mentioned as a sin in the new covenant and I may have something that will begin to break my beliefs.
Thanks for the input again,
Imunity
P.S. I started using Imunity when they started the first Survivor series on TV but I spelled it wrong :-) |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 9:34 am: | |
Chris,
This quote is from the resource you just mentioned,
"Iíve known people who were very good at following the rules. From the outside watching these people, they seem to be very good Christians because they follow the rules. But their hearts are cold and far from God. Iíve known other people who are rule breakers. Theyíre kind of mavericks. But when you get to know them, they have a passionate, authentic relationship with Jesus Christ."
I know he is probably just trying to make a point here, but I have personally known many "mavericks" who almost tempt God minute by minute to prove that they are saved by Grace alone. They will gossip and drive fast and refuse to attend their unruly children. If you say one word to them they will tear your head off, yet they are the leaders of their church.
And yes, I do know cold law-abiders as well but there has to be way to respect the rules and be on fire for Christ also (I feel that is where I am).
Reacting so quickly like this was not respectful of your loving gesture to post a good resource, I appologize. I will go through the study, after I spend some time considering what Melissa has brought up.
Still searching but not lost,
Imunity |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Yes, without a doubt there are many within the church who merely have a professed faith rather than a real faith accompanied by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. God's Grace is never a license to sin (as the latter part of Galations makes so abundantly clear). Grace is never a license to break the law, engage in dangerous activites, test God, or act poorly towards others. Rather grace credits Christ's righteousness to us through no merit of our own. When the Father looks at us all He sees is the perfection of His Son, even though in practicle terms we are still sinners far from perfect. When we receive salvation through faith, through the grace of God, we also receive something more, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the Spirit's work and power that begins to transform us over time into the image of Jesus Christ. It is the Spirit's work in our lives that conforms us to the law of freedom, the law of love, and life in the Spirit. It is the ongoing work of the Spirit in our lives that produces outward fruits of the Spirit that characterize all true believers. When the fruits of the Spirit like love, joy, peace, and patience are completely absent in a person's life, it make very well be an outward sign that they have a said faith rather than a real faith (although we as humans can never completely judge the heart). This is the whole point of the parable about the wheat and the tares growing up together until they are seperated at harvest. One of the things I like about Galations is that it is so balanced. The question of Galations is not wether we have license to sin or not. The question is what causes us to walk in righteousness, the law or grace, flesh or the Spirit. I affirm with your that we are indeed God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared before hand so that we would walk in them. (Eph. 2:10)
Chris |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:14 pm: | |
Chris, I was a bit harsh going off on the ones that say they are saved and then prove they aren't, sorry. I should not be worrying about what others are not doing right anyway.
Yes Galations is excellent in it's focus on the right motive. My aim is to always glorify God out of thanks for what Jesus did for me on the cross.
Blessings!
Imunity |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:17 pm: | |
Imunity, I truly understand your agonizing over this question. I agonized and studied it for months.
We are studying Romans in our Friday night group, and last night we were looking inductively at the idea that "wages" are associated with sin (see Romans 6:23) and "credit" is associated with a gift of God. We examined several texts that discussed the results of living by law, and I was quite overwhelmed--again--at Galatians 5:2-6. Paul clearly says that Christ-followers are not to be "burdened again by a yoke of slavery." He uses cirucmcision as his example becaue that was the particular legal requirement the Judaizers were pressing upon the Galatian Christians.
But Paul says that if they allow themsleves to be circumcised then Christ would be of no value to them. If they do one requirement of the law because it's in the law (in this case circumcision), they are obligated to obey the entire law (and that refers to the entire Torah).
He then says that those who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ and have fallen away from grace.
I know the typical argument at this point: "I'm not trying to be justified by law; I'm justified by grace and am keeping the law because it's never been revoked, and I'm honoring God by keeping it."
That, though, is playing with words. I remember very well how I did this very same rationalization. It never completely felt "at ease", and there were certain "holes" in my own argument that left me feeling slightly dissonant.
The other question we looked at last night was, "If we are completely saved by grace apart from the law and our righteous deeds are seen as no more than filthy rags, then what happens to the sin that is still in us?" The texts we read made it clear: the Holy Spirit in us makes our holiness His responsibility. We are now to live by the Spirit, not by the law.
Such an amazing idea seems scary--it sounds antinomian. In fact, that perception is the reason so many Christians do not really understand the covenants and cannot explain properly why they do not keep Sabbath. The law is intended to lead us to Christ, and many Christians still focus on it as the standard for Christian behavior.
I found Acts 15 very helpful. The Council of Jerusalem met to discuss what to require of the Gentiles who were becoming Christians with no Jewish background. James spoke after listening to Barnabas and Paul telling about the work of God among the Gentiles, and he said, "Brothers, listen to me....It is my judgment...that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instaed we should write to them, telling them to abstain from froom polluted by idols from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. For Moses has been preached in every city from the earlist times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." (Acts 15:13, 19-21)
Peter also spoke and said, God...accepted [the Gentiles] just as he did...us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are." (Acts 15:8-11)
The apostles acknowledged that the law (Moses) was accessible to all--in fact, from "earliest times" it was read in the synagogues every Sabbath. Yet they did not assign any requirements to the new Gentile believers except abstaining from eating food offered to idols, from committing sexual immorality, and from eating blood or strangled animals.
There was no instruction to those early Gentile believers to observe Sabbath.
You're in my prayers as you continue to search!
Colleen |
Imunity (Imunity)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:46 am: | |
Hi and thanks again all for the hearty welcomes and loving suggestions. Now that I have introduced myself and where I am as a former Adventist, I probably should start in on other discussions. I will try to be helpful rather than argumentative or stubborn. Eventually I may submit my story but that could take a while. Blessings to you all!
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Heb 13:8 |
Another_Carol (Another_Carol)
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 3:25 pm: | |
Hi Imunity,
I have not posted for awhile since I have been in serious dialouge on CARM with an SDA.
I am not now nor ever have been nor ever will be an SDA. It was introduced to me thru my son-in-law who was scared into it thur Y2K and "The truth".
I would in just a short form talk to you a little about the fact this is why I believe that the law is not a relative thing for those of us who call ourselves born again only saved by grace Christians.
This is the truth that I know: Before this thing happened my daughter and son-in-law lived in a marriage that survived 10 years of happiness. Why did this happen because my daughter went along with most everything thing that my s-i-l wanted but when it came to this issue she could not agree to disagree because she was directed to Galations by none other than her Heavenly Father and thus she realized something that had always been with her but never really addressed.
She was used to going to chruch every Sunday but her husband was not(his church background was a mix of Catholic and Baptist, none of which were adhered to habitually) so she let the marriage develop by doing what he wanted and she could because it is not about the day it is about LOVE.
Now I am not going to tell you that he made demands on her to go to chruch with her but what I will tell you is that there was no communication as to how this happened(in deception),questions were not answered(big one was where did Jesus command the Sabbath).
The bottom line with it is there is no love when you are looking at the law to try to support your conviction of TC'S. Because what happens is you loose sight of the other person's ideas.
This can happen with you and I and the neighbor accross the street but it cannot happen in a marriage. A marriage is something that is the parrallel of our relationship to Christ.
To make this short I will just add one more thing that I found after studing the Bible for the first time intensely, thanks to my s-i-l. In 2Corinthians 3 it says that the glory of what was is gone away only to be surpased by the glory of what is.
This is evidence for me that the law in any way shape or form, to adhere to because of our relationship to Christ, is null and void.
Now having said that, I will also say that the law as presented will be adhered to and much more when we accecpt Jesus Death for remission of sins, His burial for change, and His resurrection for life.
But since it is done away essentially we cannot go to it and say this is our road map since we now have one implanted in our hearts. That road map will take us to places we never dreamed possibly because our small minds cannot preceive what God has planned for us.
I know this is all very new to you and I want to thank you so much for being totally honest. Ask me any questions you would like and together we can learn. Isn't that what our Father would want? IE does just one(or one group) have all the answers or does God want us to work togehter.
I pray that you understand that scripture as I do: Come let us Reason together says the Lord;
Isaiah 1:18
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
Praise God for bringing us together, Another Carol |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 8:06 am: | |
We have a Jewish man in our congregation at church. I mean he is Jewish by birth, he was raised Jewish, I think he said Orthodox. He was saved at 17 and his family still isn't saved. He did a presentation on the passover feast last night, a reinactment, it was so good!
The Jews know that they are under the law, because they don't believe their Messiah has come yet. They understand that one day the law will be written on their hearts and they will no longer be under the law, they just don't think it has happened yet.
The prayer shawl represents the law, the tassels represent the commandments, all 600+ of them, they put it over their head and wrap it around their neck because it symbolizes the law and the yoke of the law.
(Ex. 12)At passover they put salt water (instead of real blood) over their doorposts with hyssop (a plant)and they don't go out of the house that night. They throw out all leaven bread and have only unleaven bread for the week, they drink wine, traditionally they would sacrifice/kill a lamb at twilight (3:00 pm)and break none of his bones and eat him, (this man said now they eat a Turkey or Chicken because they don't have a temple to sacrifice in)they still keep a bone to symbolize the unbroken bone of the lamb.
They set a place for Elijah at the table and traditionally send someone to knock and open the door at midnight to see if he is coming. (because of Malachi 4:5)
They eat the bitter herb.
The Passover bread, the matza is placed in a pillow-sort of thing with 3 compartments. The top compartment represents God, the bottom compartment represents the Holy Spirit and the middle one the Levitical Priest. They take the middle matza, break it in two uneven pieces and wrap one piece in linen and hide it. One of the children finds the piece and uncovers it.
Thing is, this is all law to them, according to Ex. 12:42 it is a solemn observance for all children of Israel throughout their generations, they do it every year in anticipation of thier Messiah being preceeded by Elijah.
What they can not see is that:
The spirit of Elijah came in John the Baptist.
The Passover lamb without blemish was sacrificed without one broken bone, at 3:00pm.
He took the bitter herb with His punishment for our sins.
His body was broken, hidden in a tomb in linen, and uncovered (resurrected) just like the matza bread and He became the High Priest!
The passover blood of the Lamb covers their sin.
Behold, He stands at the door and knocks.
He did not come to destroy the law, he came to fulfill it and he did--every jot and tittle!!
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! |
Chris (Chris)
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 8:44 am: | |
That is SOOOOOO awesome! The symbolism and shadows contained in the law truly are beautiful when you see how they point to Christ and His incarnation, atonement, and resurection. Really beautiful.
I belief I read or heard somewhere that part of the observation of the Jewish Sabbath includes eating a bread that is made of three interwoven strands. And that at sundown on Friday night a glass of wine is poured (from a Christian perspective this is obviously the blood of the Messiah/Christ) and a candle representing the Sabbath is lit that will burn until sundown Sat. night. Interestingly enough, at sundown Saturday night, the Sabbath candle is extinguished in the wine............Hmmmm........
Chris |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 12:19 pm: | |
Chris, I had forgotten that fact about the Sabbath candle being extinguished in the wine. I heard that several years ago while we were studying our way out, and that was a powerful symbol to me.
I remember that several years ago some of our Adventist family told us they heard a Jewish rabbi, an invited guest speaker at LLU Church Sabbath School, engaged in an interview/discussion with the Adventist host who was questioning him. The Sabbath, not surprisingly, came up, and the rabbi said that if they believed the Messiah had come, Sabbath would be completely different for them.
The really interesting thing that I glean from these peeks into Jewish tradition and beliefs is that Jews really seem(ed) to understand the symbolic nature of the Sabbath. Although they have a completely false view of the Messiah, they still understand that the coming of Messiah would change the Sabbath.
It's interesting to me that Adventists do not seem to find Jewish understandings helpful or instructive in this area. They seem to believe that they have replaced Israel, and their 19th-century Adventist interpretations have also replaced Jewish understanding of law.
It's all quite curious to me.
Praise Jesus for fulfilling the law!
Colleen |
Leigh (Leigh)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 2:59 pm: | |
That is so interesting. I had never heard of this tradition. I did a search on "havdalah" the name the Jewish people give to the Sabbath ending ceremony. Here is a quote from one of the sites:
"Wine spilling like water," says the Talmud, "is a sign of blessing." In order to start the week off right, we fill the cup of havdalah so that a little spills out. And not only do we spill wine, but we spill it 'like water.' That is, we use it lavishly -- to put out a flame; something you would never think of doing with wine."
"And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it.
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."
Mark 14:24 |
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