| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
I honestly could not improve on your words, Patti! Everyone,please re-read the above post again! I think anytime we affirm the Gospel of Christ and then say, "Yes, I believe that, BUT..." it truly negates the work of Christ alone and His free gift to us unworthy sinners! And yes, I am going to REST my way into heaven!! Clinging onto the HEM of HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALONE! I can't surpass by any human effort, striving, piety, or cleverness the 'foolishness' of the Cross!! I can't have anything more powerful in my life than the 'weakness' of the Cross!! We do not preach the message of the Cross only at the beginning of the Christian life, then go on to other things. We need to hear this 'foolishness' always... As the song goes, "At the Cross, at the Cross, where I first saw the light, and the burden of my heart rolled away! It was there BY GRACE I received my sight...and now I'm rejoicing on my way." Under His Robe of Righteousness Alone, Cindy | ||
| Steve |
Hi Colleen, You said: "We are to proclaim Jesus and his salvationóperiod." "We are accountable to God for how we respond to the Holy Spirit after that. What happens after we are saved is a new chapter in the book. It's not the message of the gospel Jesus asked us to tell. What happens as we begin to live as Christians is between us and God. Once we join a fellowship of believers, we do have some accountability to each other. I Cor. is all about this part of Christian living. But the Christian life is not the gospel." Very beautifully said. In SDAism justification and sanctification are inextricably bound. The gospels and apostles make it clear that justification (salvation) is one expereince. Sanctification is another experience. You're right. We need to preach the gospel, justification, without any strings attached. After that, our accountability to other believers in the Body of Christ, and most importantly, to the Holy Spirit, is an important matter. But sanctification is not justification. Our walk WITH Christ should never be equated to our coming TO Christ. We should never judge someone's justification based on their sanctification. After all, aren't some of us having difficulty in some areas of our lives while others have difficulty in totally different areas? My sanctification may look totally different from your sanctification. But our justification is exactly the same. I agree with you Colleen that deception is something that no Christian engages in. However, as an SDA who was saved before hearing of the church, I represented SDAism as a Christian organization. Now that I've learned otherwise, I realize that I was engaged in deception. Now that I'm seeing more clearly, I'm running from that deception. But while I was deceiving I was in fact deceived. (It's all very confusing, and I'm trying to make sense of it, so I hope this doesn't confuse anyone but me.) Patti and Max, I see much of what you're saying is wonderful. Could it be that you're both right? Of course, this is from someone who hasn't had theological training, so I may be blind to something. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Patti |
Steve, We cannot be saved BOTH by faith alone and by faith plus works. It just won't work. This is the greatest issue of the Reformation and is still the hub of great controversy in the church today. Whether the mercy of God for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ was totally sufficient, or whether we have to add to it. The argument may seem simplistic and one of semantics only, but the implications are vast and eternal. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Hi Patti, I agree with that absolutely. I must admit that some of the language gets a little complicated for me. That's perhaps where I get lost. But salvation being SOLELY on the Grace of God is clear. We add nothing. We can't be saved by what we do, and we can't be lost by what we do. A while ago I began to recognize the similarities between Catholic and SDA teachings. I sometimes still get confused on the issues (drat) but I know in my heart that the reformers were right on target. Thanks for helping me keep straight on those issues. Steve | ||
| Patti |
Steve, Not trying to "keeping you straight." Just trying to keep myself "straight." The Gospel is all I have, and I get really frustrated when someone tries to take that away from me. And they will indeed take it away if they make me dependent for any part of my salvation. I, like Paul, know that there is nothing good that dwells in me. I am totally dependent upon the promises of God to get me out of this body of death. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Steve |
Ha ha Patti! I know you're not trying to keep me straight. I also know that nothing good dwells in me either. The Holy Spirit uses each one of us in the Body of Christ. I have chosen to allow Him to use others (such as yourself) to provide insights for me that help me. I come to this website because it has helped me tremendously. Not that anyone out there specifically intended to "straighten me out", but the effect it has had makes me realize that it is being used by God. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Cindy |
Amen! Patti and Steve...and yes, this site has been a blessing to me,also. We need each other!! Even when we disagree, I pray we can remember how precious we each are to God!! I pray that God will continue to be with ALL of us here on this site and that we may all glorify HIM!! Only here because of Grace, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Colleen, Thank-you! for your post above (Saturday, 8:20). I just read it again and was going to comment on sections... but it was all good; I would encourage everyone to read it or read it again. You made it plain and simple!! ('Tis a Gift to be Simple...' :-))) Grace always, Cindy p.s. thanks for asking about my talk yesterday. I need to tell Maryann I used the story she posted (in the last day or so) about the shipwrecked father, son, and son's friend...I talked about our ASSURANCE of ETERNAL LIFE because we BELIEVE in JESUS ALONE! One lady told me I should have passed out Kleenex's (tissues) before the story! :-)))) | ||
| Colleen Tinker (Colleentinker) |
Cindy, I'm glad your talk went so well! Thanks for letting know! Colleen | ||
| Pat Darnell |
While I respect Bonhoeffer, I think it unfortunate that he chose such a terminology as "cheap grace". I wish he had not. It is an unScriptural term. In Scripture, grace is a gift - no strings attached - from God the Father to those who believe in His Son. Not to perfect, or even "growing" believers. "It was WHILE WE WERE YET SINNERS that Christ died for us." Paul's own experience indicates that he struggled with "Christian growth", as we call it. No, these works have nothing to do with our salvation. If you say we HAVE to show these "fruits" if we are saved, you are placing strings back on God's gift. It is not so. Grow in Christ, by all means. But concentrate on His grace. Sorry, Bonhoeffer! There is no such thing as "cheap" grace. There is only GRACE.... Pat :-) | ||
| Cindy |
Yes, Pat...I think that is the key distinction... like you wrote: "If you say we HAVE to show these "fruits" if we are saved, you are placing strings back on God's gift. It is not so. Grow in Christ, by all means. But concentrate on His grace." God Freely gives the Gift of Grace, Jesus Christ crucified for us!! When we believe, He STAYS with us, loves us, encourages us, guides us... Of course, He wants us to be EXCITED about His Gift, but even if we ignore it for awhile, He never gives up on us!!! Even concentrating on our 'fruits' takes the FOCUS away from the Only One who can really motivate us to any change. And I believe that 'change' is not readily visible always to others, or even to ourselves! A lot may be changing inside ourselves in the realm of our motives and desires; but again, it is in God's timing, not ours. I have really seen this in my life. God, in His infinite wisdom wants us to depend only on HIM! Fortunately, Jesus' blood saves me totally and completely!; even when I don't 'understand' everything perfectly... but still have that simple Belief in Jesus and in His Perfect Righteousness in my place! Concentrating on Him, Cindy | ||
| Max |
PSEUDOGRACE IS NOT SOVEREIGN I just had a lightning-bolt insight! I've been pondering the question of why we former Adventists have so much difficulty understanding and accepting God's free grace, and I think I may have found an answer. We still haven't shucked our old SDA ways of trying to control God. For us God may never have been sovereign. And so if God himself isn't sovereign, then obviously his grace cannot be sovereign either. In the old days we tried to control God. For example, we thought we could delay Christ's Second Coming indefinitely by the passive aggressive strategy of failing to "finish the work." Heaven never particularly appealed to us anyway, since in heaven there is "no marriage or giving in marriage," for example. And we don't like that. We want to "hurry up and get married" -- so as to enjoy as much as possible of that blissful state -- before Christ comes and ends it all! Poor us! But wait! We can prolong our wedded bliss by delaying his Second Coming! Wow! And so easy too! The "reasoning" goes like this: Jesus said the gospel had to be preached unto all the world before the end would come. It's easy to delay that if we're still under the delusion that we can control and manipulate the Almighty. How? By the passive-agressive method of failing to finish the work! It's great! So far our strategy has "worked" for 150 years! Proof: Jesus hasn't come yet! Ain't we the Almighty ones! The only ones in the universe who can control God! Nifty, huh? And never mind that the stones might cry out. They haven't yet, have they? Therefore, our "reasoning" goes, if we can successfully manipulate God regarding his Second Coming as Adventists, maybe -- just maybe -- we can successfuly manipulate God regarding his free grace as former Adventists! It's worth a try. It's free, so it can't be "cheap." And just you never mind that goof-off Nazi-fighting German Dietrich Bonhoeffer! Why didn't he see that "cheap" isn't the same as "free"? Poor oaf! So maybe . . . just maybe . . . we can: "be saved in our sins," "do as we please," "continue in sin that grace may abound!" Halleujah! Halleujah! Halleujah! Amen! And how can God remain unmocked under the oppressive thumb of human beings? Simple: Enter the dragon! Sovereign God controls the dragon and all his evil spirits! For God keeps them locked in a prison called the abyss as told in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. He sends an angel out with a key to unlock these unholy things ... so that they may do His bidding! Afraid so! If God rules the demons, he can most assuredly rule us. And effortlessly. For if God is sovereign -- if he sits in his heaven and laughs at our foolish attempts to control him -- then his grace is also sovereign. And if we cannot control his Second Coming by dint of the rocks that also await God's command, then how can we presume to control his sovereign grace? Real grace reigns! And only those who * take up the cross of Jesus, * put to death the misdeeds of the body, * crucify the sinful nature, and * die daily can ever enjoy it. For these are GOD'S elect. All others God never elected in the first place. Praising and trembling in gratitude, Jude the Obscure = Max Gordon Phillips | ||
| Steve |
Hey Max (doesn't sound the same as Hey Jude!), Help me with this. You say that real grace is only enjoyed by those who: "take up the cross of Jesus", "put to death the misdeeds of the body", "crucify the sinful nature", and "die daily". Don't all those things come AFTER God's grace is experienced as a reality in one's life? Aren't all those things sanctification, rather than salvation by being justified (completely unworthy as we are)? For some, "doing as we please" may change dramatically after we have experienced God's grace. As Paul, I realize that I do not do what I want to do, but sin still reigns in my mortal body. For those that have been saved, their becomes a duality to their nature: they do things they don't want to do, they don't do things they want to do. And that doesn't happen until one is met with the grace of God. It's those who don't have that grace that still commit sin WITHOUT any conflict with the New Man (or Woman) that Paul mentions. (Oh, I know. There's the conscience. Perhaps that's another topic.) But to say that those who do those things you list can ever enjoy God's grace, seems to make God's grace dependent upon what we do. Am I understanding what you said? Still trying to make sense of all this grace stuff. God Bless, Steve | ||
| Max |
HOLINESS TO GOD IS OUR RESPONSE TO REAL GRACE, DOING AS WE PLEASE IS OUR RESPONSE TO PSEUDOGRACE It is impossible for us to * "take up the cross of Jesus", * "put to death the misdeeds of the body", * "crucify the sinful nature", and * "die daily" unless and only until we have already drunk deeply of real grace and only real grace. ^^ Don't all those things come AFTER God's grace is experienced as a reality in one's life? Aren't all those things sanctification, rather than salvation by being justified (completely unworthy as we are)? ^^ Not even then. We must be fully justified first, that's true. But we must be fully sanctified first as well. Our Adventism had turned the spiritual reality of sanctification on it head! For, "all those things" don't even sanctify us. We have to be already 100% sanctified -- before we can do them. And even then, they are no more than "filthy rags" (used tampons after 60 maggoty days). Paul proclaimed the Corinthian gentiles "sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be holy" (1 Corinthians 1:2 NIV) BEFORE he told them to stop fighting among themselves (1 Corinthians 1:10-17). Why is it that we have such difficulty seeing that we must be 100% sanctified before we can grow in grace? Maybe it's because Sister Ellen G. White said, "Sanctification is the work of a lifetime." Unfortunately she "meant it for evil," meaning that you get to be sanctified only AFTER a lifetime of dying to self, etc. But fortunately, God meant it for good. For Paul in 1 Corinthians 1 (and in many other places) told the Corinthians that they had to be 100% sanctified BEFORE they could stop fighting among ourselves. And so "sanctification IS the work of a lifetime." But it is a work only of growing in grace. In other words, we are 100% sanctified first. And then and only then can we grow in grace. Or, as Colleen has put it, be weaned from breastfeeding to eating beef. And STILL we are "completely unworthy." Worthy, worthy is the LAMB that was slain! | ||
| Steve |
I know there are a couple of places (maybe more) in the NT that state that we HAVE BEEN sanctified. Is that what you mean? If it is, I don't see how that aspect of sanctification relates. The PROCESS of sanctification will continue, as long as there is sin in our lives. That is until we are totally sanctified (although it seems most people die before that happens.) So I admit along with your statement that I have great difficulty seeing that we must be 100% sanctified. That seems to be a Whiteism that I met often in the church. It seems to be too much along the lines that EGW spoke of in The Great Controversy regarding reaching perfection and not needing a Mediator. But if you make a distinction between sinless perfection and sanctification (being set apart) then perhaps it can make some sense. But right now it's not making sense to me. Steve | ||
| Max |
Steve, why did Paul call the "battling Corinthians" "sanctified in Christ Jesus" if they weren't? | ||
| Patti |
Salvation is one complete ball of wax. There are no "stages" to salvation as some would like to think. The word "to sanctify" in the New Testament meant to put aside for a holy purpose. In Christ we have been sanctified, as well as justified. 1 Cor. 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. Washed, sanctified, justified. One single process; one perfectly saving work. Hebrews 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will WE ARE SANCTIFIED THROUGH THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST ONCE FOR ALL. I am not sure where or when it came into Christian theology that sanctification was man's own filthy rags works of gratitude to God for His great salvation. The New Testament refers to SANCTIFICATION occurring simultaneously with JUSTIFICATION. Notice how the author of Hebrews says we are SANCTIFIED by the blood of Jesus Christ: Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT THAT SANCTIFIED HIM, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? We not only have justification and sanctification through faith in our Lord and Savior, we are also glorified: Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. More evidence that salvation is one complete package that is ours when we believe in Jesus Christ. Another text about sanctification: John 17:17 Sanctify [2] them by the truth; your word is truth. (Jesus Christ is the Word. John 1) 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified. 20 "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for THOSE WHO WILL BELIEVE IN ME through their message, [2]17 Greek hagiazo (set apart for sacred use or make holy); also in verse 19 Acts 26:17 I will rescue you from your own people and from the Gentiles. I am sending you to them 18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive FORGIVENESS OF SINS and a place among those who are SANCTIFIED BY FAITH IN ME.' Jude writes "to them that are SANCTIFIED by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ." 1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: 2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. The purpose of the epistle of Jude? 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence TO WRITE UNTO YOU OF COMMON SALVATION, it was needful for me to write unto you, and EXHORT YOU THAT YE SHOULD EARNESTLY CONTEND FOR THE FAITH WHICH WAS ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS. 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward DESTROYED THEM THAT BELIEVED NOT. 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 BUT THESE SPEAK EVIL OF THOSE THING WHICH THEY KNOW NOT: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves. 11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever. 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. The sins of the infiltrators: 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage. 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit. 20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your MOST HOLY FAITH, praying in the Holy Ghost, 21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, LOOKING FOR THE MERCY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST UNTO ETERNAL LIFE. 22 And of some have compassion, making a difference: 23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. 24 NOW UNTO HIM THAT IS ABLE TO KEEP YOU FROM FALLING, AND TO PRESENT YOU FAULTLESS BEFORE THE PRESENCE OF HIS GLORY WITH EXCEEDING JOY, 25 TO THE ONLY WISE GOD OR SAVIOR, BE GLORY AND MAJESTY, DOMINION AND POWER, BOTH NOW AND EVER. AMEN. | ||
| Pat Darnell |
Perhaps it would be helpful to hone the question, What exactly is "grace"? If we can decide what grace IS, it might answer some questions. Personally, I believe that "grace" is God's forgiveness of the sinner. For it was "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (I know, I've quoted it before - and I may quote it again. We forget too easily, and this one thing we must NEVER forget!) Now, if "grace" is "forgiveness", how can there be a "pseudo", "fake", or "cheap" forgiveness? As I said, I respect Bonhoeffer, but he is not, was not, nor will his writings ever be, Jesus or Paul. We are forgiven - washed, sanctified, and justified in one fell swoop. This is what God's forgiveness entails. His forgiveness sets us free - free to be ourselves rather than Ellen White clones - "and whom the Son sets free is free indeed!" If we are going to start dwelling on behavior, we will have come full circle, back to the type of religion Ellen gave us! Who is going to make the rules this time? And who is going to judge us? There is no way to avoid returning to legalism. We can proof-text our way back to the "little red books", or maybe make a set of our own. Or we can rejoice in the freedom for which Christ has set us free (Gal 5:1) and live day by day with Jesus as our guide. Can't go wrong that way - nor can such a walk be scripted. We are FREE! We must NEVER pervert the Gospel...as I just now heard someone saying, the Gospel is GOOD NEWS! And that Good News is that we are forgiven! Not, *maybe*, not *perhaps*; not "fake" forgiveness, not "psuedo"-forgiveness, not "cheap" forgiveness...but the real thing, straight from the heart of God! A little illustration I have used before might help: If you would like to lay a neat, straight line in a snowy field, you cannot do it looking at your feet. The line will be very crooked. However, if you set your eyes on a tree across the field, and never move them, you will lay a neat, straight live. Folks, don't get into even "thinking" about your works! Keep looking at Jesus! YOU, I, CANNOT clean up the house to suit a king, but when The King comes into the house, He will clean it to suit Himself! We were so indoctrinated with Ellen's "Agonize, agonize, agonize" that we had no idea of the joy of walking in grace! The New Testament is full of "rejoice!" and it's derivatives. Salvation is a joyful experience. Whether you are living a quiet life, whether you are much too busy, whether you are in constant pain, whether you are being burned at the stake - it is pure joy to be secure in the knowledge that God doesn't make mistakes - when He has saved you, "no one will snatch you out of His and His Father's hands!" John 10. It seems there is going to be a battle here over grace, and I don't fight. I have expressed my complete and undying faith that I am saved by His grace. Period. And I "rest" on His promises that I have eternal life - a very comforting thought to "rest" in as I go down the other side of the hill... I will check back later, and see how it goes... I will be happy to visit with anyone privately at pinedar@hsnp.com at any time... All blessings as you search for God's Truth. Jesus Christ is our Reality, our Priority, the Substance of our salvation; He is the Bread of Life, the Water of life. What more do we need to live? He even offers a peace which passes understanding! He is THE TRUTH. The church is not - as we heard for decades - "the truth"; Jesus is the Truth; He is the WAY to God, the Door, He is the Light and the Life of the world. He came to His own but they rejected the Light. Why? There were steeped in their works, their behavior, their rituals - and they deemed them to be sufficient to their needs and their salvation. There is no other Name by which we must be saved - and saved is saved...God's call is irrevocable. His grace is sufficient, His forgiveness sure, true, permanent...and, I might add, for ALL sin: past present and future. (Before you burn me at the stake, just remember walking across a snow-covered field; if our eyes are fixed on Jesus, He takes care of the future "growth", the behavior!) "It is by grace you HAVE BEEN saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD - not of works, so that no one can boast." Pat :-) | ||
| Max |
In Defense of Dietrich Bonhoefferís Use of the Terms ìCHEAP GRACEî and ìCOSTLY GRACEî A long time ago on this website somebody who was opposed to the terms ìCHEAP GRACEî and ìCOSTLY GRACEî as used by Dietrich Bonhoeffer implicated this great theologian and ethicist by saying he took part in the plot to kill Hitler. The writer assumed that this was a traitorous act, against the elected leader of his country, Germany, and therefore Dr. Bonhoeffer should not be heard and use should not be made here of the terms ìCHEAP GRACEî and ìCOSTLY GRACE.î Well, Iíve come back to set the record straight. Here it is: Although Bonhoeffer apparently did believe that Hitler had to be eliminated, according to the evidence that I found on the Internet, he played no part in the only plot against Hitlerís life ever to have even come close to succeeding. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, this plot, called the ìRastenburg Assassination Plot,î was attempted on the life of Adolph Hitler on July 20, 1944, not by people who had opposed Hitler from the beginning on moral grounds, but by German military leaders in the high command. These men were not theologians or moralists or professors or ethicists or ministers or pastors or even intellectuals as we ordinarily think of them. And most certainly Dr. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of the leaders of the Confessional Church in Germany, not to mention being in a Nazi prison at the time, was not one of them or involved with them in any way other than agreeing that Hitler had to be eliminated by force if necessary. These leaders, who had so enthusiastically supported Hitler when Germany was winning the war began to oppose him after Germany started losing it. Their plot: to assassinate der Fueher Adolph Hitler, stage a coup and seize control of the government, and then sue the Allies for peace. Notably involved in the plot -- code-named Valkyrie -- were: Col. Gen. Ludwig Beck, Major Gen. Henning von Tresckow, Col. Gen. Friedrich Olbricht, Field Marshal Erwin Rommel, Lieut. Col. Claus von Stauffenberg, and several other top officers. On July 20 Col. Stauffenberg left a bomb in a briefcase in a conference room at Hitlerís Wolf's Lair ìfield headquarters at Rastenburg, East Prussia, where Hitler was meeting with top military aides. Stauffenberg slipped from the room, witnessed the explosion at 12:42 PM, and, convinced that Hitler was killed, flew to Berlin to join with the other plotters, who were to have seized the Supreme Command Headquarters there.î (Britannica) The plot failed, Hitler was wounded but not killed, and Hitler rounded up everyone he and his intimate ìin groupî of Gestapo officers could think of, and tortured and executed them all without benefit of trial or even much evidence. Again, Britannica: ìHitler's police rounded up the remaining conspirators, many of whom were tortured by the Gestapo to reveal their confederates and hauled before the Volksgericht (People's Court) to be excoriated [not tried] by the dreaded Nazi judge Roland Freisler. About 180 to 200 plotters were shot or hanged or, in some cases, viciously strangled with piano wire or hung up on great meat hooks. Even Fromm was eventually arrested, tried, and executed. Hitler had some of the gruesome executions filmed and watched the movies.î Dietrich Bonhoeffer, because the Gestapo knew he did favor a non-pacifist elimination of Hitler, was rounded up also and tortured and hanged without trial. So you can say what you wish about Bohnoefferís ethics, but I for one believe he did the righteous thing in standing up to the criminal Nazi regime and not ìbowing and scrapingî and cooperating with them as the Seventh-day Adventist church in Germany did at the time. Having said this, I need to quote from the ìMemoirî of G. Leibholz published between the ìForewordî and the ìIntroductionî in Bonhoefferís book THE COST OF DISCIPLESHIP: ^^ There also was in the German opposition movement another strand of uncorrupted spiritual forces which opposed all that Hitler and National Socialism [Nazism] stood for on grounds of Christianity and the basic values of life, of truth, justice, goodness and decency. ^^ ^^ Ultimately, it was the allegiance which he [Bonhoeffer] owed to God and his master which forced upon him the terrible decision, not merely to make a stand against National Socialism ... but also ... to work for the defeat of his own country, since only thus could Germany as a Christian and European country be saved form extinction. For this very reason Bonhoeffer and his friends were tortured, hanged and murdered. ^^ And so I repeat my original statement: Bonhoefferís stand against ìCHEAP GRACEî is well taken and well named. And his martyrdom shows that his use of the term ìCOSTLY GRACEî is just as well taken and well named. Max of the Cross | ||
| Billtwisse |
Even if Bonhoeffer did take part in a plot to eliminate Hitler (Max has presented a reasonable case that he didn't), that fact in and of itself does not validate or invalidate any particular aspect of his theology. If a Christian's zeal for true justice leads him to do something that is questionable, does the Lord mark iniquities? All of us have done things based on misguided motives. --Twisse |
