| Author | Message | ||
| Therese |
Hi Valm, The tape "Adult Children of Unhealthy Fundamentalists"(#J8912) and its companion tape "Addictions: God's Role In the Healing Process" (#J9012) are by Allan McKechnie. They can be purchased at: Seeds Tape Ministry Willow Creek Community Church 67 E. Algonquin Rd. South Barrington, IL 60010 www.willowcreek.org Mr. McKechnie is a christian psychologist that works with Willow Creek Church. I also read a book several yearsm ago which confirmed and clarified some things I was observing in SDA --"The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse". I don't know the author, but I have seen this book recommended at abuse and cult info web sites. Hope it helps. Therese | ||
| George |
To all that responded, First I will say as I did when I posted here that I don't know how to start my own thread. If one of you would want to start one titled Sins and Sinning and paste all my posts as well as the answers there that is where I will post what ever else I have to say on this subject from now on. Max, you posted: "But I did want to say something about Patti. You posted, ^^it seems that all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all, it is just the "sin" of unbelief. Patti was so kind as to find a lot of verses that backed up that idea.^^ With all my heart and mind I believe that from the beginning Patti was teaching a false gospel, false grace and a false Christ. From all this falseness comes the idea that "all those things we we like to call sins may not keep us out of heaven after all." It seems to me that this idea is heresy and only leads people to hell, which begins now, just as heaven begins now." What I want to know is, where do you get off branding Patti for one of my ideas? I think you should take a look at one of those things we usually call sin and see if it is sin afterall. Saying something about someone that is not true comes to mind, as does judging someone. Saying someones interpritation is not right, and implying that yours is is another one, could that be pride? If you are without sin cast the stones at me not at Patti. I think you should tell Patti you are sorry for what you said as souls are at stake, and one of them is mine. George---the angry | ||
| Valm |
Dear George--- the anry but probably a real nice guy in person. To start a new conversation go to the left an open topics, then open up discussion under topics and then scroll all the way to the bottom. It will say create new conversation. Hit create new conversation and it will open you up. Good luck. | ||
| Chyna |
i hear your frustration valerie. when i read george's original post, i was confused why it was in this thread exactly. and i concur with max, sin is missing the mark. a pastor gave this sermon where he described when you were playing archery, if you missed the target they would yell out "SIN!" sin is not merely unbelief. paul gives lists of 'sins' in his epistles. there are times when i have emerged from argument with my parents and just have cried in anguish recognizing the dark sinful parts of me that were brought to light by the exchange. it's there, and it's painfully real. in terms of being in so far you can't see the exterior shape, Val. i'm with you, because i feel that many Adventists are the same way especially about their weird theology. and i've heard it on the web, here so many times. first, it's about the sabbath, then it's about keeping the sabbath the RIGHT way, and then it's about being healthy (normal concern), but then it's having a "clean" diet (righteous lifestyle). then it's saying EGW is an ok spiritual guide to the bible, then it's EGW is right about IJ, then it's EGW is a prophet, then it's believing in the National Sunday Law. it's just so subversive how adventist tricks people in. it's like levels spiralling downward deeper and deeper away from what God intended level 1. obey the scripture (correct premise), which means obey the ten commandments which means observe 7th day, be healthy. send your kids to a private Christian school. level 2. keep the sabbath holy, restrict your diet, regard EGW as a sound spiritual influence. keep sending your children to a private SDA school. level 3. living a righteous lifestyle to keep salvation. praying that your good deeds will out weigh your bad (b/c of IJ). misread scripture so it will concur with the church's (EGW's) position. being baptised and vowing you believe that EGW is a prophetess level 4. sequestered from other Christians, judgemental of everyone nonSDA, living in guilt, twisting scripture even more: believing in Jesus = Michael, believing in soul sleep. and to top it off, believing in EGW's prophecy of "national sunday law" (false premise) the way i see Adventism it becomes EVERYTHING that is familiar to you. the same way Catholicism works, actually -- my friends that are catholic are very attached to the rituals. but Adventism, it inserts itself into every part of your identity. the way Christianity should do, but in a bad way. it becomes your whole social support because you are isolated from other people and you also feel deep down inside an elitism because you have special truths. it becomes your livelihood in many instances. it is your whole education from saturday, to everyday of the week because you are trucked from private SDA school to private SDA school. and the reason why it is so tightly knit? because looking on SDA from the outside is so different from the inside. and whoever it is (probably Satan) doesn't want you to realize how misshapen and aberrant it is. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Max, I feel I must post in defense of Patti... I do not know her personally, but have been thinking and praying for her much recently since the death of her brother. I know this has to be a hard time for her. I, myself, have been having a very difficult time emotionally for the last month or so... I think it's been "post-traumatic stress syndrome" with all the changes I've been through. A state of grieving many losses in my life. I've been reading FAF lately, but have not felt energized enough to post this past week. Still, I feel Patti's emphasis on the GRACE of God focused on the message of the Cross, Christ's righteousness in place of, and for me! is NOT a false teaching, a false gospel. I do not see that "from the begininning" she was ever teaching or promoting a false grace. Max, I am too weary to argue any of this with you. As I've said before, your brilliance in story writing amazes me, your knowledge of poetry, history, and the Bible is impressive... Even we do disagree on this, I would enjoy talking with you face-to-face sometime. :-)) Grace always, Cindy p.s. Wherever, or however you are right now, Patti, my love is sent to you... | ||
| George |
Nicely said Cindy George | ||
| Max |
Hi Cindy, It looks as though we'll just have to amicably agree to disagree about Patti's message. I think as Christians, though, that we can agree to separate Patti's person from Patti's message. Patti's person belongs to God and cannot be resisted, but must be lovingly supported in every Christian and prayerful way. But her message is another story. It MUST meet the test of Scripture or fail. On the thread "Sins and Sinning" I have posted a number of purely scriptural challenges to her message (not to her person). I do not know whether or not she will respond. It doesn't really matter. The issue is whether or not her message -- not her person -- will withstand the test of Scripture. So far, in my opinion at least, it does not. I'm open to discuss -- in Christian love and with Scripture alone as determinative -- her message with anyone who chooses to do so. Some of the definining texts about what happens within the true believer after salvation are posted on the "Sins and Sinning" discussion. God's continuing grace to you, Cindy, Max of the Cross | ||
| Therese |
I have a question for the resident theologians at this site -- What does "cleansing of the sactuary" in the 2300 day prophecy of Daniel mean? I understand the problem of trying to hamonize the investigative judgment theory with the gospel of grace, but the dates in the 2300 year prophecy parallel the dates of events in Jesus ministry (Jesus' baptism, crucifixtion, gospel going to gentiles). The 2300 day prophecy ends in 1844 when the "sanctuary will be cleansed". If the above significant events in Jesus' ministry are correctly listed and their correct times given in the 2300 day prophecy, then the 1844 date and the cleansing of the sanctuary should also be right. So what does the "cleansing of sanctuary" in 1844 mean? Thanks, Therese | ||
| Max |
Therese, Nice to read your posts. This question has been examined many times on this website in previous discussions. In my opinion, the best way to get your questions answered is to read CULTIC DOCTRINE OF SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS by Dale Ratzliff. FAF will be glad to send you a free copy if you e-mail webmaster Richard Tinker with your return-mail address. Without getting (much) into the texts of Scripture or the facts of history, I would say this: The KJV-translated 2300 "days" of Daniel 8:14 in Hebrew cannot be forced -- as SDAs do -- into "years." There is not so much as one sentence in all the Bible to indicate that any "day for a year" principle of prophecy is in operation. The Hebrew reads 2300 "evenings mornings", meaning 2300 "evening sacrifices" and 2300 "morning sacrifices." This prophecy came to a literal 2300-day end 6 years, 3 1/2 months later. When the Jerusalem sanctuary was cleansed of the defilement of pagan-conquorer Antiochus Epiphanes who sacrificed a pig on the altar. It was cleansed because the Jews took over control of the city, rebuilt it and rededicated the temple sanctuary there. The Jews still celebrate the fulfillment of Daniel 8:14 at Honnukah (sp?), the "feast of lights." And welcome to the website, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
HANUKKAH: FEAST OF DEDICATION (Also called "Festival of Lights") The Hanukkah ("dedication") celebration goes back to a time after Alexander the Great had conquered most of the known world. He died very young, and his conquered territories were divided. The Greek Seleucids under Antiochus IV gained control over Judea. To help secure his position, Antiochus defiled the Jerusalem Temple or made it ėspiritually unclean.î He: 1. Desecrated all of the sacred objects -- such as the golden candlestick or menorah -- in the most holy place. 2. Set up a statue to the Greek god Zeus, and 3. Sacrificed a pig on the altar. He began to spread this defilement, forcing each Jewish village to destroy its synagogue and to worship and celebrate the false Greek god Zeus with a feast of free pork. But the Greek-Syrian soldiers made a big mistake when they arrived at the little town of Modi'in. There they came up against a devout old priest named Mattathias and his five strong sons. When the Greek-Syrian detachment ordered the townsfolk to worship the pagan god Zeus and celebrate and feast unto him, Mattathias and his sons killed them and started a revolt. The priest's son Judah, nicknamed Maccabee (ėThe Hammerî), quickly rose to lead the Jewish rebels against the spreading Greek desecration. Time after time surprised and defeated the Greek-Syrian armies. Pushing on to Jerusalem, the Maccabean Jews finally drove them out, and on the 25th day of Kislev, recaptured the Temple or sanctuary. As they began to clean up and restore the Temple compound -- cleanse the sanctuary -- they found the golden candlestick, badly damaged during the occupation. They repaired it and looked for some of the special oil in order to light it. In one of the storerooms they found a single bottle but it was only enough to burn for one day and the procedure for making more oil took eight days. They were faced with a decision: 1. Make more oil and wait out the eight days to light the candlestick, thus giving the Syrians time to regroup and attack them, or 2. Light it immediately and hope that the surrounding Jewish people would see that the light of God was once again shining in the Holy of Holies, gain faith and join their fight. They had faith and relighted the ėner talmidî ("eternal light"). But there was only enough consecrated oil to keep it burning for one day. It would take a week to prepare more. But by a miracle of God the light burned for eight days. Thus God allowed enough time for the surrounding Jewish population to: 1. Learn that the Temple had been cleansed, 2. Rally around the now-cleansed sanctuary and 3. Gain enough men and arms to prevent Greek-Syrian reinforcements from retaking Jerusalem and re-defiling the sanctuary. MUCH OF THIS STORY WAS PREDICTED IN DANIEL 8. Adapted from Glenn Kay, Concord Messianic Fellowship at http://www.concordnh.com, who in turn adapted from First Maccabees, Historical Introduction and Chapters 1-4. | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Therese! Welcome! The interesting thing about William Miller's figuring that produced the starting and ending dates for the 2300 days is that he made some arbitrary decisions and used some shaky assumptions when he assigned the beginning of the 2300 days. The Adventists have based their doctrine on Miller's calculations, and they were faulty. Ratlaff's book The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists looks in detail at Miller's exact caculations and reasons. Again, welcome! Colleen | ||
| Therese |
Max & Colleen, Thanks for the explanation and the welcome. Does "Cultic Doctrine of SDA" discuss the time prophecies given in Dan 9:24-27 ["70 weeks are decreed for your people (31AD is end of the 70 weeks and when gospel did go to the gentiles)...to annoint the most holy (Jesus' baptism)...the Anointed One will be cut off (Jesus' death)]? If the "day equals a year in prophecy" theory is applied, and the 70 weeks began in 457BC (issuing of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem), the time prophecies in Dan 9 perfectly match to the time of Jesus' baptism, death and the gospel going to gentiles. This gives credibility to the SDA 2300 day prophecy theory. Is this coincidental or is there another explanation for these time prophecies and actual events matching up? I am trying to ascertain truth from error. Any help is appreciated. Thanks, Therese | ||
| Max |
Hi Therese, They don't match up. You need to read Ratzlaff's CULTIC DOCTRINE. Haven't time for more. God bless. | ||
| Therese |
Max, Thanks. I'll get the book. Merry Christmas to all!! Therese | ||
| Cindy |
Therese, Welcome to you, from me, also! Glad you are joining in.... As I study...especially studying things that deviate from the "truth" I was taught in Adventism--I often heard it said of those who join, "I'm glad they're in the "truth"-- I must always remember that "Truth" has a NAME! and that name is JESUS, who said "I AM THE WAY, AND 'THE TRUTH', AND THE LIFE." John 14:6 I've liked this hymn when my questions have been so numerous: "Live out Thy Life within me Oh Jesus, King of Kings! Be Thou, Thyself, The Answer To all my questionings." "Live out The Life within me Oh Jesus King of Kings. Be Thou, The Glorious Answer To all my questionings." The Holy Spirit, promised and given to us when we believe the gospel, will guide us... Blessings on your studies; and may we all continue to trust and glory in Christ! And to completely believe Him when He says, "IF YOU HOLD TO MY TEACHING, YOU ARE REALLY MY DISCIPLES. THEN YOU WILL KNOW THE TRUTH, AND THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE!" John 8:31 Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Therese |
Hi Cindy, Thanks for the nice welcome and words of encouragement. I intend to use the tips given to me on the forum and study the bible from an objective perspective to ascertain truth. I see many problems in SDA, but the reason I joined SDA was the doctrines. Therefore, I need to determine if the doctrines are incorrect. At this point, I know some are. If it is a false gospel, I will move on. I know I can make the transition out easy. I am glad I did not grow up in SDA. From reading the many posts here, I see the struggle many have to let go. Having a non-sda past gives confidence that I can re-establish a life on the outside. (I sound like I'm coming out of prison!!??) I only have 2 relatives that are SDA and only two good SDA friends. The rest of the SDAs I know are not that important to me. One relative and one friend know where I stand on this and have questions themselves. I don't think it will affect our relationships. I will have to develop new relationships too. I see how the SDA isolation and enmeshment can keep someone in this religion because of (1) no normalizing outside contact to help you see the problems that exist in SDA and (2) the fear of having no relationships because everyone you know is SDA and if you leave, they leave you. This sounds very cultic. Does anyone have any suggestions or experiences about re-establishing life on the "outside" they would like to share? Thanks. Therese | ||
| Max |
Hi Therese, It's very difficult. Impossible from a human standpoint. But all things are possible with God. | ||
| Patti |
Dear Cindy and George, I just read the posts in this thread today for the first time. I had not realized before this that I was the topic of discussion. I am more than touched by your kind words for me. Cindy, you are right about the trauma my family has experienced. It is the Gospel and the Gospel alone that has allowed me to cling to what little faith I have in God. If the Gospel were about what happens IN us, I would no longer believe. Hundreds of devoted Christians all around the world were praying for physical healing for Jerry. But it did not come. But because the Gospel is not about us, about what we DO or what happens in us, or about what we can see, feel and touch, but about Jesus and about what HE HAS DONE, it is a fait accompli. It is objective, tangible, historical accomplished FACT, something that we can bank on. Jerry was not healed physically on this earth, but he was saved by the same mercy that saves all sinners who call on Him. I don't think I posted it on here, but on his death bed, Jerry said, "Praise the Lord." And repeated it. My mother, her pastor, and my sister-in-law prayed for those exact words. It is quite phenomenal actually. Mom told me the day he went into the hospital that she was praying that he would wake up and say, "Praise the Lord." And he did. Truly amazing. Our prayers for his physical healing were not granted. Instead we got the greatest blessing possible. We can rest assured that God's grace is indeed sufficient for hopeless sinners. Jerry never made any claims to be anything other than a sinner. And I have no doubts that the grace of God is just as sufficient for him as it is for the most pious and devout churchgoer among us. I spoke at Jerry's funeral. The verse that came to me as I prepared those words was this one: 2 Co 12:9 - but he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." I will all the more gladly boast of my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. It is by recognizing our weakness, our sinnerhood, that we feel our need of a Savior. We never outgrow our need for the mercy of God. His grace, His mercy, is completely sufficient--that is, nothing else is needed. Not that we could add anything of value to it if we wanted to. Christ is our Righteousness, our Substitute in life as well as in death, our full and complete salvation. This is our only hope for eternity, because there is no one who does good, no, not one. We are, will always be, totally dependent upon His mercy (grace) in forgiving and accepting us for the sake of the saving act of His Son Jesus Christ. | ||
| Max |
Isn't it wonderful that Paul said he would boast of "my own weakness so that Christ's power may rest on me." Christ's POWER in Paul's life! Meaning that his human weakness (near blindness) provdes the ideal opportunity for the display of divine POWER in Paul's life for the performance of "signs, wonders and miracles" (2 Corinthians 12:12). | ||
| Colleentinker |
Patti, we praise God with you that Jerry accepted the Lord and his salvation. It's so wonderful that Jesus indeed is everything! Colleen |
