| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
Good point, Bill...Bonhoeffer's theology would stand more on what he proclaimed about CHRIST; not whether he always had perfect motives or actions... Thanks Max, for that information...Did you "party-hearty" last night?! :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Point #1: ^^ Even if Bonhoeffer did take part in a plot to eliminate Hitler ..., that fact in and of itself does not validate or invalidate any particular aspect of his theology. ^^ True, Bill, but only up to a point. Theology is nothing if it does not connect behavior with belief. I would hate to be put into the position of having to argue that disciple John's refusal to join fellow disciple Judas in the Sanhedrin's plot to eliminate Jesus "in and of itself does not validate or invalidate any particular aspect of his [John's] theology." And if one's theology has absolutely nothing to do with one's behavior, then the latter portions of all of Paul's epistles are nullified, and we may be relieved from our "obligation" (Romans 8:12) not "to continue in sin that grace may abound." Point #2. ^^If a Christian's zeal for true justice leads him to do something that is question- able, does the Lord mark iniquities?^^ This, Bill, is a much harder question to answer. So I'll ask another question, hopefully to help clarify the issue: If Peter's zeal for true justice is what led him to draw his sword and cut off the ear of Malchus [the traditional name for the High Priest's servant] in the Garden of Gethsemane, then did the Lord Jesus mark his action as iniquity? Point #3. ^^Bonhoeffer's theology would stand more on what he proclaimed about CHRIST, not whether he always had perfect motives or actions.^^ Thanks for that insight, Cindy. It also calls for further clarification: Could the same be said for the proclamations of Lucifer, "the morning star," when he said, ì[God] will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stoneî? (Matthew 4:6 NIV.) Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hi! Satan was not trusting in Christ for any salvation; he was just quoting Scripture to attack and tempt Jesus. He did not seem to have any of the any of these elements that accompany a true proclamation of Jesus as our Substitute and Surety: 1. a realization and acknowledgement of ones' own sinfulness and unworthiness. 2. a realization of God's sinlessness and goodness ALONE. 3. and a cry for mercy, forgiveness, and to be "remembered". Obviously, Satan was not proclaiming Christ as our Salvation. Now, what if he had quoted John 3:16? I think the objective truth of that good News (theology) would stand true no matter who proclaimed it! I even think if John had joined Judas in the plot to turn Jesus over, God's Gospel of Grace would still stand! Of course, by our actions we can bring much disgrace on the cause of Christ!! But His Word and Promises of eternal life granted to all who believe in Him still prevail! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
But, Cindy, Satan was and remains a believer: "The devils also believe [Gr. pisteuousin]." James 2:19. | ||
| Billtwisse |
There is no question that all murder is sin and participation in it bears a non-Christian testimony. David had a man killed in order to take his wife. The worst moral sin of a believer that is recorded in scripture (as far as I'm concerned). Yet he still was forgiven and later bore testimony to the gospel again. In times of war, some have reasoned that acts of violence and bloodshed against a truly barbaric enemy are justified. In other words, killing in a just war is not murder. Whether men are right in believing this or not, God forgives those who don't have their thinking completely straight on it. Just an opinion. --Twisse | ||
| Max |
Bill, is your point that all non-murder killing comes under the province of God? I'm thinking of (NIV) Romans 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the ONE IN AUTHORITY? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the SWORD for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Should the young Christian who wishes to be a police officer reconsider and leave that task to infidels? | ||
| Billtwisse |
Max, I was hoping to get back on and say something in agreement with you before you beat me back to the board! Shucks. Before answering ? (I don't know if I can right now) the above question, let me state that I see your point regarding the credibility of our Christian testimony. If it can be demonstrated that a Christian (such as Bonhoeffer) did the right thing in a situation--as opposed to what the critics claim, the witness of the Christian 'under fire' is untainted by that particular accusation. So while God may still use us in spite of our sins, any participation in evil has a diminishing effect on our witness--in some way. If I'm teaching on sexual ethics, my views have far more credibility if I have avoided the practice of adultery in my own life. If I'm teaching against the use of illegal drugs, my words have far more significance if I have never used them myself. The issue of Christian pacifism vs. just killing in some circumstances is very involved. I will try to comment again soon after prayerful thought. I have been through a lot of heartache on this issue with a group of Brethren pacifists who 'know they are right.' As it is, I'm preparing to leave on a very long business trip in the morning--you know where to. In the gospel, Twisse | ||
| Max |
Great, Bill, and hope you'll find time to visit FAF again! Traveling mercies, | ||
| Cindy |
Max, Hi! :-)) You stated above: "Satan was and remains a believer: "The devils also believe [Gr. pisteuousin]." James 2:19. I don't think the context of this means that Satan is a "believer"! The text says, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." Believing that there is one God is NOT the same as believing in Jesus and His work here on earth! Jesus said to Martha at the death of her brother, Lazurus: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in ME will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and BELIEVES IN ME will never die. Do you believe this?" John 11:25-26. And also, John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT PERISH BUT HAVE ETERNAL LIFE." I think there is a big difference in these beliefs; WHAT, (and WHOM) exactly is Satan believing in? I would not say "Satan was and remains a believer!" Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
^^Believing that there is one God is NOT the same as believing in Jesus and His work here on earth!^^ And I agree. But isn't believing THAT Jesus was here doing His work on earth just as much a Satanic reality as his believing THAT God is one? After all, if Satan didn't believe that, then why would he bother tempting Jesus in the desert? Nobody else has ever been tempted that way. Why would he single out someone who was NOT God the Son on earth doing His work? Scriptural evidence indicates that Satan BELIEVED both that there is one God AND that this one God was here on earth doing His work. Agree? | ||
| Max |
You seem to distinguish "believing THAT" from "believing IN." And if so, this is one way of making a distinction between the two different definitions of the word belief or believe. In the Greek it's the same word for both definitions. | ||
| Max |
You may not say Satan does not believe, Cindy, but James does say it: "ta daimonia pisteuousin" = "the demons believe." And thanks for not becoming angry at me. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Oops, meant to say: You may not say Satan believes, Cindy, but James does say it: | ||
| Max |
^^WHAT, (and WHOM) exactly is Satan believing in?^^ Satan believes all kinds of truths about God the Son, God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit. Unlike many, he knows what he's up against. The Bible says "every knee will bow," and I think that includes Satan and all his fellow demons. What do you think about this, Cindy? | ||
| Cindy |
You ARE exasperating at times, Max!... but I still enjoy our conversations! Of course! Satan believed Jesus/God was here doing God's work! But I do not think he "believes" in Jesus the way we do! And yes, believing THAT Jesus died for me is believing IN Jesus...I trust Him for my eternal life! Does Satan do that, too? What are we even arguing about?! :-)) :-)) Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Cindy |
Yes, I think even Satan and His demons will acknowledge the total LORDSHIP of God; even though they have refused to personally and humbly accept it as something they want... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
There are many many people on planet earth who believe THAT Jesus died for them but who don't believe IN Jesus. I know some of them. They say things like, "I know I'm going to hell, but I don't care." Some of them are SDAs. And their idea of hell is getting burned up quick. So that aspect doesn't bother them as much. No, Satan does not believe IN Jesus Christ. What we are arguing about is the two different definitions for belief. Both the English dictionary and the Greek lexicon have TWO different meanings: 1. Belief is trust. I believe IN Jesus. Satan doesn't. 2. Belief is knowledge. I believe THAT Jesus is my personal Lord and Savior. Satan does too. That's the reason he's after me. Thanks for the smiling faces, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
CHEAP GRACE IS THE DEADLY ENEMY of our Church. We are fighting today for costly grace. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.43. | ||
| Max |
CHEAP GRACE MEANS GRACE SOLD ON THE MARKET LIKE CHEAPJACKS' WARES. The sacraments, the forgiveness of sin, and the consolations of religion are thrown away at cut prices. Grace is represented as the Church's inexhaustible treasury, from which she showers blessings with generous hands, without asking questions or fixing limits. Grace without price; grace without cost! The essence of grace, we suppose, is that the account has been paid in advance; and, because it has been paid, everything can be had for nothing. Since the cost was infinite, the possibilities of using and spending it are infinite. What would grace be if it were not cheap? --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.43. | ||
| Max |
CHEAP GRACE MEANS GRACE AS A DOCTRINE, a principle, a system. It means forgiveness of sins proclaimed as a general truth, the love of God taught as the Christion "CONCEPTION" of God. An INTELLECTUAL ASSENT ['the demons believe," James 2:19] to that idea is held to be of itself sufficient to secure remission of sins. The Church which holds the correct doctrine of grace has, it is supposed, ipso facto a part in that grace. In such a Church THE WORLD FINDS A CHEAP COVERING FOR ITS SINS; NO CONTRITION IS REQUIRED, STILL LESS ANY REAL DESIRE TO BE DELIVERED FROM SIN. Cheap grace therefore amounts to a DENIAL of the living Word [Christ] of God, in fact, a DENIAL of the Incarnation of the Word [Christ] of God. --Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship, p.43. |
