| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Hello friend Allenette, Got to admit: you nailed me to the barn door! Here's what I posted: ^^The Father God demands the perfect obedience of the Son God, but He is not a legalist.^^ You're good: sharp eye, sharp mind! I was too hasty. Later I reconsidered. I should have posted ^^The Son God REVEALED the "radiance of [the Father] God's glory and the EXACT REPRESENTATION of his being" [Hebrews 1:3], and therefore He cannot possibly be a legalist.^^ Formers have a really tough time re-picturing or re-visioning what the Father God is like. EGW has mistakenly called the Ten Commandments "the transcript of God's character" many many times and never said anything different. To the contrary, Scripture with absolute clarity says, "The Son [God] is the radiance of [the Father] God's glory and the exact representation of his being." And in so contradicting Scripture she invoked the curse written down by John the Revealer (Revelation 22:18-19 NIV): "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to [her] the plagues described in this book. And if anyone dakes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from [her her] share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book." ((The term "book" used here is also a figure of speech called synechdoche which covers all of Scripture ["canon"] and not just the book Revelation alone.)) We formers need to rid ourselves of the notion that "propitiation" in Scripture refers to a vicious Father God -- anologous to, say, Moloch -- who REQUIRES a blood sacrifice from a human VICTIM. The Son God's statement, "If ye have seen me ye HAVE seen the Father," indicates that the Father God is NOT vicious and not a bit like Moloch. Therefore he is NOT a legalist nor can be one. For legalists are vicious -- vicious on themselves and vicious on others. Moloch is a legalist, not Yahweh. And so you're absolutely right, Allenette: "God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Now I ask you, Allenette, can you read that and still think that the Father God is a legalist DEMANDING perfect obedience? I can't. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
The Father God NEVER demanded perfect obedience, He REVEALED perfect obedience in the birth, life, actions, teachings, death, rest-in-death, resurrection and ascension of His Son God. Max of the Cross | ||
| Cindy |
The word "propitiation" can be falsely taught that God demands a blood sacrifice as some sort of vicious requirement to satisfy some outside-of-Him, impersonal "Law of God." The marvelous teaching of the Substituionay Blood Atonement at the Cross of Christ shows that the difference is... God GIVING HIMSELF to us, thereby satisfying not an impersonal "Law", but satisfying His very Being by Substituing Himself for us! This satisfaction and substitution is then, a wonderful revealing of God's Love. Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Max, Going up to Allenettes statement that if God was demanding perfection he was dysfunctional. I thought the same thng for a very long time. I do not believe that now, however, I stil do not have a scriptural knowledge to back up that belief. In your post you said that God does not require a blood sacrifice from a human victim. I would sincerely like to know that the Bible says that. Could you expound on that further? Valerie | ||
| Patti |
Of course God did not demand perfect obedience of Jesus! Jesus was/is God. He is the standard, the ultimate of perfect holiness. God did and does demand perfect obedience of us. This is evidenced throughout the Old and the New Testaments. Psalm 119:96 To all perfection I see a limit; but your commands are boundless. Matthew 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. 2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God. James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. If one claims that God does NOT require perfect compliance to all of His standards, then exactly how much "non-compliance" or sin is He willing to accept? In the book of Genesis, He would not accept even a single act of disbelief from two otherwise perfect humans. He cast them away from His presence. How much sin do you think He is willing to tolerate at this time in history? The answer, of course, is none. We must have a life perfect obedience, perfect compliance to all of His standards in order to live in His presence. Unfortunately, we are incapable of making this offering of rignteousness to God. But there is One Who has done it in our place. Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God 24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Christ is our righteousness. The perfect life of Jesus Christ is credited to us when we believe in Him. Just as His death is imputed to us for the remission of sins. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. The Gospel is that God justifies the ungodly. He pronounces us holy and righteous because of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ. This righteousness is by faith only. It is a righteousness that is held in trust in heaven for us where it cannot be corrupted, where it is credited to us in the day of judgment. Romans 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith." By faith. Faith is believing in something for which you have no tangible evidence. The only way we can discern our righteousness is by faith, by believing in the unseen, by trusting in the imperceptible. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. He has provided everything necessary for our full salvation, our restoration to the presence and favor of God in Jesus Christ. Why is it so difficult to believe? | ||
| Valm |
For myself believing is difficult because I tenaciously hold on to what is familiar, what has been deeply ingrained into my nervous system from knee high up. Along with claiming that Christ's grace is sufficient for me everymorning I also have to pray, Lord I believe, help my unbelief. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Valerie, ^^God does not require a blood sacrifice from a human victim.^^ 1. Where does Scripture say otherwise? "Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin" is not a statement of vicious requirement, but a statement of loving truth. The Son God said, "I have power to lay down my life [willingly allow his blood to be shed], and I have power to take it up again." How does the Father God feel about this? Is He not overwhelmed with astonished grief and love at the Son God for doing what He has done for us, people He loves with all his heart? This is the true meaning -- is it not? -- of scriptural "propitiation." No demand, no vicious, vengeful satisfaction, such as, say, Moloch requires. 2. The Son God also said, "If you have seen me, you HAVE seen the Father." Therefore: A. If the Son God is not a legalist, then by this definition the Father God CANNOT be a legalist either, and B. If the Son God is not the kind of Person who "demands perfection," then the Father God CANNOT be such a Person either. Our problem as formers is -- as Maryann keeps saying but few seem to be hearing -- is almost entirely due to our skewed-from- Adventism view of "the nature of Christ." To de-skew, realize that: * All Three Persons of the Godhead fully dwelt in the Person of the Son God. * We know ALMOST NOTHING about the Father God EXCEPT as He has been revealed to us in the decension, incarnation, birth, life, actions, teachings, death, rest-in-tomb, resurrection and ascension of the Son God. Hebrews 1:1-3. This is therefore how we know that the Father God is neither a legalist nor a vicious demander of blood-lusting propitiation to slake his vengeful anger at us. For if we have seen the Father God because we have seen and heard and touched the Son God revealed to us through Holy Scripture the Holy Spirit God, then we have seen and heard and touched the Father God. Let not your heart be troubled: Do you believe in the Father God? Then believe in also in the Son God. And, having thus believed, you become able to see and hear and touch the Father God. Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Valerie, My daily prayer exactly: Lord I believe, help Thou my unbelief. The Gospel goes directly against our human grain. We have a hard time accepting that there is absolutely nothing we can do to help to save ourselves except to depend on the mercy of God. The children of Israel had the same problem. They did not believe that God would deliver the Promised Land into their hands. And so they turned back and wandered in the wilderness until their deaths. Christ is our full salvation. All He asks us to do is to trust in Him. But, as you have well pointed out, "faith" is not an easy thing for us humans. Letting go and trusting unseeingly in the mercy of God is much harder than trying to do something to save ourselves. Thank you for your remarks. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Valm |
Thank you both Patti and Max, I will go off into the great Nortwest to save babies with these holy mysteries spinning in my thoughts. Somedays they defy logic but I believe that if I waited to fully understand I would be on my deathbed before I enjoyed living in grace. . . . . Valerie | ||
| Max |
Patti, If "God did not demand perfect obedience of Jesus," then why would He "demand perfect obedience of us"? | ||
| Patti |
Jesus IS/WAS God. (We are not. We are His creatures.) He and the Father are ONE. How could He be anything but "obedient" to HIMSELF? | ||
| Valm |
Might the two of you be hung upon semantics but believe the same? Valerie | ||
| Patti |
I thought so at one time also, Valerie. But now, for me, there is a world of difference between believing that Jesus was primarily our Example (SDAism and RCism) and our Perfect Substitute in life and in death (Reformed theology); between believing that His human flesh was just as sinful as ours is (SDAism) and that He was God incarnate, the perfect and spotless Lamb of God; between our having to live out His life (SDAism, RCism) and our being accepted by God by faith alone. This is what started me on my road out of the SDA church some 20+ years ago: It came to my attention that the SDA church was espousing the same gospel as the RCC did during the Reformation, a believer-centric gospel such as Paul warned the Galatians of, instead of a perfected and complete Gospel of salvation by the work of Another. Jesus did what we could never do. He perfectly fulfilled the law on our behalf and offered His perfect body as a sacrifice for the sin of the world. Throughout the New Testament (and Old Testament also) He asks us to trust in His mercy and grace, although SDAs (and RCs) cannot read the wonderful promises of Jesus to save all who believe on Him without adding a "but" or an "if" to His words. But Jesus adds no such qualifiers. "Whoever believes in Me has eternal life; will never die; will not perish but have everlasting life; has passed from death to life; will not be judged;" and many others. The Gospel is all about Jesus; it is not about us. Christ is our full redemption. He asks us to trust Him to keep His promises to us. Why is it so hard to believe? | ||
| Patti |
That last question, Val, was not directed at you or at anyone else in particular. It just reflects what I have been shocked to discover in Christendom as a whole: Many Christians do not believe that Christ is their full salvation. They believe that they must add something of their own devising to the perfect work of Jesus Christ. | ||
| Max |
Valerie and Patti, ^^Jesus IS/WAS God. (We are not. We are His creatures.) He and the Father are ONE. How could He be anything but "obedient" to HIMSELF?^^ This human theory denies and flatly contra- dicts plain Scripture: NIV Philippians 2:6 [CHRIST JESUS], BEING in very nature GOD, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and BECAME OBEDIENT to death -- even death on a cross! 9 THEREFORE GOD EXALTED HIM to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name. The Son God's obedience to the Father God cannot be construed as the Son God's obedience to Himself. Not according to Scripture. Nor can the oneness of the trinity be used to deny the three Persons of the godhead. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, It's good to see you posting again. :) I have a question. If we add NOTHING, then how does my smoking come into play here? Some tell me that it is essential that I quit to be saved and others tell me, it is essential I quit to be a 'good Christian' and yet others will tell me not to worry about it. I was going to quit because I felt it my duty to quit. However, upon attempting, I found that once again, I thought to myself, 'well, here I go, once I quit cigarettes then for sure I'm saved.' So in thinking about it I have finally given up quiting for now but am still wondering, 'do I need to quit to make Heaven?' To many people this would seem like a trivial thing to talk about. But is it? Don't we all have something/s that we feel we should stop doing in order to be taken to Heaven? This type of thinking was the exact thing that had me almost give up religion completely. I couldn't understand that if Jesus, the Spotless Lamb of God, died for US, then what could we possibly do to add to that?? NOTHING. If I weren't smoking cigarettes, it would be some other thing as something in us humans make us want to think that we can add to our salvation and I'm inclined to think that we are worms and what in the world makes us think that we can add to the Blood of Jesus, our Savior? Just thoughts. Oh yes, and EXACTLY what are our 'OBLIGATIONS as Christians? Very good question to have answered. Thanking you or anyone in response to the answer to this. "IF" I quit smoking to better witness for the Lord, then shouldn't I also quit soda's, start dressing appropriately, speak always in a soft pious tone, and on and on. All these things to me represented in my past the religious person. I'm having a hard time representing myself as 'that religious lady.' I hope this is making sense. See, if I quit doing something that is frowned upon then I must quit doing ALL things that are frowned upon. It becomes this awful dominoe effect that I cannot live up to nor wish to try. Thanks for reading my ramblings. God Bless all, Denise P.S. right now quiting smoking or even the thought of it, causes some sort of anger inside. The anger stems from a question within myself that goes like this 'Would God really use my smoking against me and have me go to hell?' Another thought comes to mind, 'Is God that trivial?' | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ They believe that they must add something of their own devising to the perfect work of Jesus Christ.^^ How do you know what they believe? | ||
| Max |
Denise, ^^Don't we all have some things that we feel we should stop doing in order to be taken to heaven?^^ Not for one instant do I believe that! Even as an SDA for many years I never believed that. If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, you ARE saved! Period. If you think you need to stop smoking "in order to be taken to heaven," then your thinking is still legalistic and anti-gospel. Get rid of that kind of thinking. You are saved first and foremost! You are saved here and now! You are under obligation to stop smoking because you ARE saved. Now! Two thousand years ago! You are NOT under obligation to stop smoking in order TO BE saved. Hear Scripture (Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20): ìDo you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.î Paul is telling you, Denise, right here that ìyou are not your own,î that ìyou were bought at a price.î That means you should quit smoking because you ARE already saved and already ARE in heaven here and now. For how can your body be Godís temple if you are NOT already saved? How can you be in an unsaved condition if you were bought with a price? The price is the death of Christ Jesus on the cross for you. That means the price HAS ALREADY BEEN PAID. That said, it is the Holy Spirit -- and not Max or Patti or Valerie or anyone else -- who is working with you on your smoking problem. So go with his leading, not with ours. I for one accept you as saved WHILE YOU ARE STILL SMOKING. And your body is the temple of God, not the temple of other people who may or may not be trying to control you. Therefore, it is not my business or anyone but the Holy Spiritís business when or how you stop smoking. Or how long it takes. It is the business the Holy Spirit. Please do not become discouraged! You are very precious to me. Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
I thank God that I will be DELIVERED from this body of sin. This body is addicted to nicotene and one great day, God will give me a new one. I hope :( Although I have a hard time believing smoking is anymore a sin than wanting something out of a catalog or arguing with someone or being angry at times. But still, seems that smoking is numero uno in other Christians sight of me. They focus on my smoking. But if I point out things in a catalog that I wish to have one day (coveting) or something they have and inside I'm wishing to have that same thing and so state it, they don't say a word about this. Infact, it is ignored or treated as a normal thing! Still having problems with regards to smoking. I enjoy it much and am very addicted to it, infact, I'm always thinking thoughts that are good. These thoughts include this body that is not only addicted to cigarettes, coffee, soda, chocolate, laziness at times, seclusion or hermit like living, and so on. This body enjoys most of these things and my ONLY hope of quitting them would be death. From there, my ONLY hope is our Lord one day, giving me a brand new body that doesn't get addicted nor tired nor sick etc. This is my ONLY hope. If I am to count on me to rid of these things, I'm in deep trouble as I'm weak. The only reason for my focus on smoking is that it is forever brought to my attention by others. Otherwise, I am content with smoking and have no doubts about my salvation. But when it is pointed out so often, that is indoctrinating me to believe that I am a bad or sinful person for smoking. I hate being brainwashed into thinking things I enjoy are bad! Sure takes my enjoyment out of life. Denise | ||
| Patti |
Denise! Thank you for responding! You wrote: I have a question. If we add NOTHING, then how does my smoking come into play here? My answer: It doesn't! Your salvation (acceptance with God) is based solely upon the merits of Jesus Christ! This is the good news: Christ justifies the ungodly! God accepts us just as we are when we trust in His beloved Son! (Besides, if the kingdom of heaven is not a matter of eating and drinking, it certainly is not a matter of smoking either!) You continued: I was going to quit because I felt it my duty to quit. However, upon attempting, I found that once again, I thought to myself, 'well, here I go, once I quit cigarettes then for sure I'm saved.' My response: Do you understand what you are truly saying here? What you are really saying is that when you quit smoking then, perhaps only then, will you be able to believe that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ was sufficient to save even the chief sinner among us. Obviously you see the problem with that approach. Our salvation is not based upon OUR ACTIONS, but upon the life and death of Jesus Christ. The question you must ask yourself is not, "Am I worthy?" but, instead, "Is the Lamb worthy?" If Jesus is worthy, then I am accepted by God in Him. It is that simple (and mind-boggling). Denise: So in thinking about it I have finally given up quiting for now but am still wondering, 'do I need to quit to make Heaven?' Patti: Read the book of John. Read how many times Jesus says, "Whoever believes..." Question is, do you believe Him? Do you take His words at face value? Denise: To many people this would seem like a trivial thing to talk about. But is it? Don't we all have something/s that we feel we should stop doing in order to be taken to Heaven? Patti: Yes. We should stop looking at ourselves and start focusing on the perfect Lamb of God. Denise: This type of thinking was the exact thing that had me almost give up religion completely. Patti: I understand completely! Denise: I couldn't understand that if Jesus, the Spotless Lamb of God, died for US, then what could we possibly do to add to that?? NOTHING. Patti:  YAY! That is IT! There is absolutely NOTHING we can add of positive value to the perfect work of Jesus Christ. Whatever we may try to add to it, corrupts it because it comes from sinful flesh. Denise: If I weren't smoking cigarettes, it would be some other thing as something in us humans make us want to think that we can add to our salvation and I'm inclined to think that we are worms and what in the world makes us think that we can add to the Blood of Jesus, our Savior? Patti: TA-DA!!!!!!!!!!!! Right on, Denise. Denise: I hope this is making sense. Patti: Perfect sense! Denise: See, if I quit doing something that is frowned upon then I must quit doing ALL things that are frowned upon. It becomes this awful dominoe effect that I cannot live up to nor wish to try. Patti: There you go. But the Gospel is not about what you do or don't do. It is about what Jesus Christ has done for all who will trust in Him. We are righteous by faith only in this life, not in our actual flesh; but we can have the confidence to boldly come before the throne of God, we can know that our salvation is secure, not because of what we are or do, but because our sins have been completely forgiven and we stand as though faultless, completely garbed in Christ's perfect holiness. The book of Romans was a great beacon that broke through my (and Luther's) legalistic breeding. There are no clearer statements of Gospel than in this book. We are saved by the work of Another; we are declared righteous because of the life of Another; our sins are forgiven because of the death of Another. It is all about Jesus. It is not about Denise's smoking, or Patti's self-righteousness, or someone else's sexual immorality. It is about Jesus. I repeat, the question is not if we are good enough, but if the Lamb is worthy. Do you believe that the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone is sufficient to redeem you to God? |
