| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Max, You read me like a book and I'm thankful for that. Thank you for your encouraging words as this day they are sorely needed. God Bless you much and I'm coming Friday. Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Max |
Denise, How many obese Christians have taken you on? My father for many years was an obese "temperance secretary" of an SDA conference. Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Saviour? | ||
| Max |
Patti, Are you counseling Denise to smoke herself into lung cancer or an atherosclerotic heart attack? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Patti and Max, You both have given me credence to my own reasoning. Thank you. I have had a tremendous amount of guilt put on me lately and have lost 11 people to death (5 of them were my relatives). With all of this, I must be a bit worn down but still had to post what I posted to be sure that my mind was still thinking in some sort of sane fashion. I thank you both for the pure unadulterated GOSPEL!! God Bless you Both richly. In answer to both of you as to whether I have accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior and do I believe that He died for me and is risen and that my sins are tossed into the sea. (Although I realize this was a lengthy version of both your questions as to 'have I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior') The answer is YES I have indeed. :) I have also repented which is a must along with acceptance. May God shine His face upon you both! your sister in our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, denise | ||
| Max |
Bless you, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Max, I will answer your question that you posed to Patti as to her counselling me to smoke myself into lung cancer, heart disease etc. etc., which I do NOT believe she is doing. There are a number of things we eat, drink, do that are NOT good for our health. But, I do not see the Gospel as advocating killing oneself. I see the Gospel as liberating me from guilt. Driving a car can kill you too. Should you stop driving? Breathing the air outside is terrible at times, but what do we do, stay inside? Smoking is known to cause many ailments but not in ALL people. Some people smoke all their lives and never have a problem other than a cough. Who is to say what will and won't kill us? Let us all go by how the Holy Spirit directs us in these matters. For as you both have stated, 'the kingdom is not a matter of food nor drink.' If I could drive, I would do that too and driving killed my mother. The SDA's say, 'don't eat meat, drink coffee, tea, booze and so on' but to focus on these, at least to me, is a sin in and of itself. This focusing on these things that are bad for us is NOT focusing on Jesus Christ and what HE has done for us. So, I will maintain my focus back to Jesus Christ my Lord and go from there. But my eyes will behold Jesus in front of myself and my habits or riding in a car. For you drivers out there, it is dangerous and polluting the air. Should you stop? No more so than I should look at my smoking in such a light. Yes, it could kill me but it's not 100 proof. Just a risk. Like driving. Does this make sense? Let us ALL focus on Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior! God Bless you both, Denise | ||
| Patti |
Well said, Denise. Thank you. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Patti |
In answer to Cindy's and Val's posts earlier today: We know that the wages of sin is death. Sin separates us from God, the Life-giver. When Adam and Eve sinned they began to die physically but died immediately spiritually. No longer were they or any of their offspring able to please God with their loving obedience; and they were incapable of restoring themselves to God's favor or to His divine presence. It is not that God demands blood sacrifices. It is that the wages of sin is death; we are told this in Scripture whether we understand why this is so or not. All of us are worthy only of eternal death and separation from God. Jesus Christ offered Himself as a perfect, infinite sacrifice; he paid the wages for our sin so that we could, by faith in His substitutionary saving act, be restored to the presence of God. So you see, it is not about demanding blood sacrifices; it is about paying the penalty for our transgressions so that we can once again dwell in the physical presence of our God. He died the death that we deserve so that we might have the righteousness that only He deserves, the righteousness that will allow us to be reconciled to God. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Does anyone else find this awesome? This thread was or is titled 'being obnoxious' and it turned into a GOSPEL Spreading thread!! God is awesome! Perhaps we should start another thread that would be more suited to the GOSPEL message than 'being obnoxious.' Just another thought. God Bless us all, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus | ||
| Max |
I have a close friend who killed himself just two days after this Christmas day just past. In his letters and telephone conversations to me over the years he spoke occasionally of his powerful desire to take his own life. Should I have counselled him not to do so? He had at one time accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Savior. And I had no reason to think that he had ever renounced Christ. I cried like a baby when my daughter in northern California told me about it over the phone two nights ago. Somehow I feel as though I should have counseled him not to take his own life. But I think Patti's philosophy is one which would have strongly condemned me for even thinking to suggest to him that somehow he might reconsider. I especially feel this way when I read Paul in 1 Corinthians 6:19-20: ìDo you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore, honor God with your body.î Alas, he did not honor God with his body temple, but destroyed it. He was in his 50s and in general good health. Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
That crossed my mind, also, Denise! Seems no matter where we start, we always end up back at the Gospel. And isn't that the way it should be? The Gospel is as good as it gets! Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Max |
True gospel is as good as it gets, but false gospel is, as Bonhoeffer has written, "a cheap covering for [the world's] sins; no contrition is required, still less any real desire to be delivered from sin." Cost of Discipleship, p.43. | ||
| Max |
NIV John 8:3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him. But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground. 9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10 Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?" 11 "No one, sir," she said. "Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and LEAVE your life of sin." After salvation the true Christ says, "Go now and LEAVE your life of sin." It is the false Christ who says, "Go now and CONTINUE your life of sin." That's how we know the true gospel from the false: By their fruits shall ye know them. Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Max, I am sorry to hear of your friends suicide. As to your question as whether you should have counselled him not to or not. Hmmm, I have had people in my life also talk of suicide. Of course I would try to convince them of reasons to live but that is all we can do in that case. In matters of health, smoking is known by everyone that it is harmful. But, do we continually bombard smokers with verbal warnings? No. Same with meat eaters, especially red meat. Do we do like the SDA's and tell them of all the harm this red meat will do to them and promote vegetarianism? I say that we can comment that red meat is bad if eaten all the time but other than that, we can do nothing. Of course we do not wish to see anyone we know doing things that harm them. This is natural. But if I were to tell you of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and then proceed to tell you to stop driving because your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and you would be risking that temple by driving your car,,,I would venture to say, that you would think me strange. I'm always fearful of my friends driving. Including you Max. My mother was killed by another driver. So have many other family members been killed the same way. Do I start telling everyone to stop driving? Of course not. Yet every Christian will risk losing their life behind the wheel of a car. Why? Why Risk??? I sincerely believe smoking is bad for people. Just as some of many other things are. But I do not have the intent of suicide in my mind when I light a cigarette. I enjoy cigarettes. I don't have the intent of suicide when I eat red meat either, but it can kill me and I've seen many die from this. Yet still, I eat red meat. Why cigarettes only? Seems that is the only thing people want to focus on and say things like its a suicide, a slow one, but suicide nonetheless. I could say that about alot of things. I don't limit it to smoking. Are we all attempting suicide? Driving a car is very very dangerous, moreso than flying. Statistics show more people die every year in car accidents than smoking. Or flying. So why drive? Sheesh, I hate it when Christians get on this kick about smoking being suicide when they themselves will drive daily on the freeways! Knowing full well that they could be killed by anohter driver. Does that make sense? No more than my smoking does. They are BOTH risks. Not only this but most Christians do NOT think about the air of others. Are you part of the pollution problem Max? I would dare say that probably most people that I know pollute the air I breath and think not a thing of it. I hear all this talk of second hand smoke but little talk of pollution warnings of the day. We could get radical with our health and become not only non smokers but non drivers, non red meat eaters, non aerosols, non dust in the home, always oiling the skin of our bodies after a bath and exercising quite often. We could go the whole gammit and go live in the woods where not only the pollution is less but the noise pollution is less too. Noise pollution is something I've had to learn to get used to. I came from the mountains. From clean air and now look where I'm at. California, a haven of polluted air, noise pollution and crazy drivers. Not to mention that everytime I get in a car, I know I'm risking this temple of the Holy Spirit to some nut in a drive by shooting. I thought that Jesus died for us and our sins. I thought Jesus Christ is our righteousness. I thought Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior...SAVIOR. I thought there is nothing we can do to save ourselves or for that matter, unsave ourselves, other than if we were to completely turn our backs to our God. Is all this untrue? Why did Jesus Christ have to die? Was it not because we ARE SINFUL and will be until we are given a glorified body? I need answers now...as I'm confused. Seems that smoking is the only thing looked upon as suicide, yet I disagree. I disagree that smoking is 100 percent going to kill me and I disagree that smoking is the only thing we humans do that could also be considered suicide. Walking to the store is another danger. I have had many a bad thing happen to this temple while walking to the store, while breathing polluted air. Why focus on smoking? Let's go vegetarian except for an occasional meat meal to give us our b12 that we need. And why not dispose of candy while we are at it? Oh yeah, any imported beer you drink, is tainted with formaldhyde to preserve it so beware of those imports too. Also, clothing is packed in formaldahyde to preserve them too. I have a habit, it's called smoking cigarettes. Do I believe it is desecrating the temple of the Holy Spirit? No more so than walking outdoors and exposing myself to the sun. No more so, than drinking that imported beer, or driving my car if I drove or risking and riding in a car. Let's put a limit on what is and what is not good for us that everyone agrees with so we ALL know what to do or not to do to be sure we are honoring our temple. Eating meat for me is good but there are many who think I'm killing myself with meat. And the truth is, is that meat can kill you! Are you going to stop eating it? It can kill you! Anyhow, I've made my point. Why focus on just one bad habit, namely smoking, and not on all? The GOSPEL is what Jesus Christ has done for us. Now what we do for us is of another matter. For instance, do you oil your skin after bathing Max? I do. I take care of my skin to the best of my ability. How many people do that? Our skin is a big part of our body. It is living and we should care for it. Not just bathing but lotions and oils too. This has nothing to do with our salvation. Jesus Christ is our Salvation. Our concerns for others can stem in many areas and alot of these areas have to do with the body. But, is it wise to harp on people? Wouldn't it be much more wise to express concern then let it be? Again, I'm sorry to hear of your friend's suicide. But I might add that even if you had said anything to discourage him from his actions, he would have committed suicide anyway ten to one. I know, I attempted suicide and died in 1988. Had there been anyone that I shared it with, which there wasn't. But had there been anyone who tried to talk me out of it, their course would have been fruitless. Suicide is one of those options we all have in this life too. If we choose it, nobody can change our minds. My heart goes out for you Max. See you Friday. God Bless you Max, Denise, your sister who cares for you much, in Christ Jesus | ||
| Patti |
Do you reckon that the woman left Jesus and never sinned again? If this is the case, which I seriously doubt, because there is no human who has ever lived without sin for a single moment, let alone for a lifetime, then she would no longer need grace--she would have earned her acceptance with God. Hebrews tells us that sin remains in us so that we will continue to feel guilty for our sins, and, ostensibly, to seek out Christ's mercy. Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. The moment we cease to recognize our sinnerhood, we cease to feel our need of a Savior. Christ's forgivness is not just for past sins; He has cast all of our sins into the depths of the sea. He doesn't merely forgive individual sins; He forgives sinners. Completely. Every day that we live by faith in Christ's saving work in us we recognize our inability to please Him, and we rue our sinfulness. But we also rest in the confidence that He is worthy; when we believe in Him we are not judged! We have passed from death to life! Faith is believing in what we cannot tangibly discern. The righteousness by which we are saved is not in us; it is in Jesus Christ, seated at the right hand of God the Father. The moment we begin to look at ourselves, we become just like Peter, who, taking His eyes off of Jesus just for a moment to assess his own progress, immediately began to sink in despair. Focused upon Jesus, as Denise has implored us to do, we become more and more convinced of the perfection of His saving work and of His faithfulness to do what He has promised--to save us, to justify the ungodly, to the uttermost. The only question is do we take Him at His Word. | ||
| Max |
Thank you, Denise, and God bless. And thanks for your prayers. | ||
| Patti |
Denise, You must hang on to your faith in the work of Jesus Christ. Smoking or not smoking has nothing to do with salvation. Nothing. I, too, am very saddened by Max's story, but, on the other hand, in the light of the Gospel, we cannot claim that his friend is "unsaved." God's grace is sufficient for all sin. I find that SDAs and many other law-touters like to focus on smoking, drinking, dancing, sexual sins, etc. because these are relatively "easy" sins to conquer. What you will never hear a lawmonger say is that failing to love one's neighbor as oneself is just as damning a sin as adultery, murder, suicide, etc. Sin is sin. And when I fail to love you, when I walk past someone in need, when I fail to actively seek out people in need to help, when I fail to sell all my worldly goods and give them to the poor, when I speak badly of you, when I fail to give you the benefit of the doubt, when I am overly sensitive to unkind words and deeds, when I am rebellious at someone telling me I am wrong, when I have an impulse to take the largest piece of pie or the best seat in the house, when I fail to visit you in prison, when I fail to comfort you when you mourn, when I feed myself before feeding the hungry--when I do any of these things, I am sinning just as surely as if I should pick up a shotgun, murder the tellers, rob a bank and shoot myself. But it is easier to rail on the vices of others than to recognize our inability to love others as ourselves. Jesus did not make the commandments any easier to follow; He not only made them harder, He made them impossible. He made it clear exactly what perfection entailed: Perfect compliance to the will of God not only in deed, but in word, thought, motive, and intent. Not one selfish thought will pass the judgment. Our only hope is the mercy of God for the sake of His Son, Jesus Christ. In the light of our sinnerhood and Christ's full salvation, Luther wrote the following to his sidekick, Philipp Melanchthon: "If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God's glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner." Only sinners need a Savior. Only sinners who realize their sinfulness recognize their (perpetual) need of Jesus Christ. And so, Denise, exult in the fact that you are a sinner; otherwise, Christ would not be your Savior. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Do you reckon that the woman left Jesus and never sinned again?^^ No, and I don't think Jesus reckoned that either. But that's hardly the point of the text, is it? The point of this text is, as everywhere in the New Testament: repentance and a changed life, a new creation: all things have become new, for the old life has passed away. | ||
| Patti |
..all things have become new, for the old life has passed away. By faith. By faith only. | ||
| Max |
^^In the light of the Gospel, we cannot claim that his friend is "unsaved."^^ Nor was that the point of my telling of my experience over my friend's suicide. Of course I did not consider his suicide the loss of his salvation! Only God knows that anyway. The point is, he destroyed God's temple, and we ARE our brother's keeper. If we followed the pholosophy of cheap grace we would need no suicide-prevention telephone hotlines either. We could save a lot of tax money! Why try to help? Let all depressed people kill themselves! Whoopie! We'll be meeting them all in heaven anyway, won't we? There wouldn't even be any need for you to express your sadness, Patti, would there? My friend was saved when he killed himself! Why bother with such trifles as the destruction of God's temples? Why be sad? Max Still of the Cross |
