| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
^^Hebrews tells us that sin remains in us so that we will continue to feel guilty for our sins, and, ostensibly, to seek out Christ's mercy.^^ You have not demonstrated this theory from Scripture alone, Patti. Scripture does say that sin remains in us. Scripture also says that all of our righteous deeds are as "filthy rags," and therefore infused with sin. But WHERE does Scripture say that sin remains in "us that sin remains in us SO THAT we will continue to feel guilty for our sins"? The New Testament says everywhere that salvation comes with repentance and contrition and that thereafter we must war against sin. Jesus says if you don't take up your cross and follow Him, then you have no part with him. Jesus says if you don't help your brother in need -- who may well be considering suicide -- then He NEVER knew you. Of course, we must always seek out God's mercy. But Scripture also says, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteous- ness, for they shall be filled." And this is not only Christ's righteousness on the cross, but according to Scripture it is Christ's righteous- ness WITHIN the believer AFTER salvation. This is solid Reformation Protestant theology for the exact reason that it is solid SCRIPTURAL theology. And it is especially Pauline theology, for if you will notice in most of Paul's epistles the first part deals with salvation by grace alone, and the last part deals with performing good works of love. For Jesus' statement was not lost on Luther, Calvin and all the rest: If ye love me, keep my commandments. This CANNOT refer to the unsaved, for the unsaved do not love him and cannot. They can only love in response to the divinely initiated first love, agape love. Max of the Cross | ||
| Patti |
Max, I have never been able to understand why you are trying to lead us back to the bondage of the law. Did you not have enough legalism in the SDA church to last you a lifetime? Patti | ||
| Max |
Patti, How do you know I am trying to lead you back to the bondage of the law? | ||
| Max |
Patti, How do you know I personally had ANY legalism in the SDA church? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Max, I'm one to feel sadness when I see old temples, full of wrinkles and pain, when I see someone's temple dying of lung cancer (like my father), when someone commits suicide to their temple, I am sad to see destruction of a human being. I know that you care about many people and I am one of them too. I know that you care if I die of lung cancer or from a heart disease due to my smoking. For this, I am grateful to have someone care and it makes a big difference in my thinking to say the least. Recently, I have seen many deaths, too many for my liking. Some of these were caused by poor eating habits or you guessed it, smoking. These deaths have made an impact on me as I miss those people. Also, in seeing them die from smoking and knowing how my heart grieved while watching them suffer, I do not wish to ever have anyone see me suffer like that as I know how much it hurts to witness. This temple that God has given us to reside in should be taken care of, no doubt. And although I can say that, sometimes it's easier said than done. I have heard your concern and believe me, it is not forgotten. If anything, it spurs me on the more to better care for myself. So I must thank you from my heart. The Gospel is the ultimate TRUTH in giving me HOPE, and with that HOPE comes a better frame of mind. There was a time, I did not care about myself at all. Infact, as I have shared, I went so far as to attempt and succeed in suicide. However was sent back by HIM. These days as I grow older, and more fragile in body, my thoughts think of things of health. This is a new mindset for me. A good one. When the right time comes, I will quit smoking. The good news between now and then is the GOSPEL. The GOSPEL has a power in it like none other. And I can say that when my faith is weakened like much of this week, I take less care of myself. The clinging to the GOSPEL is what propells me to good works, part of them being the care of this temple of the Holy Spirit. So it is essential for me to forever keep in my heart this Saving Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ. Thank you for your caring and I'm glad that you are my brother in Christ Jesus. God Bless you Max, your sister in Christ Jesus, Denise | ||
| Max |
And thank you and bless you, Denise. I too have taken a relapse since learning of my friend's death. I had just received a perky Christmas card from him -- a winter view of the White House. He was good-naturedly ribbing me because his candidate Bush won rather than mine. So naturally I thought he was in good spirits. Little did I know that sending that card was one of his last acts on earth. But like you I have got to hang on to the gospel and God's grace. I cannot blame myself for failing to take his suicide warnings more seriously. He told me once he had been thinking about suicide all his life, or at least since he was a teenager. And so I tended to just let it slide off my back. I never really thought he'd go through with it. My daughter called up and said, "Dad, _____ is dead!" I burst out sobbing. I'm still crying -- right now, tears and everything. I can't get details because his family is hush-hushing everything up and nobody in his family will take any calls. Shame rules. Nor will his residence. Everything is based on rumor from his workplace. So I've especially have to hang on to Jesus right now because I've been blaming myself for not taking him more seriously and doing more to help. For example, I hadn't answered his last two letters, except for sending him a Christmas card. In Christ still, | ||
| Patti |
You know, Denise, the more SDAs rant and rave about health reform, the more I wonder if this is not a very introverted, ego-centric philosophy. After all, it was Jesus Who said that, "Whoever tries to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." Even the verse that SDAs love to quote about the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with health. It has to do with not joining one's body with the body of a prostitute. The Gospel is not about healthy living. "The health message" is NOT "the right arm of the Gospel" as someone somewhere has claimed. (Although there is nothing WRONG with being careful about one's health.) The Gospel is about Jesus Christ, our salvation. Period. Jesus Christ is our righteousness. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Max, Hang on to Jesus our Lord. Please do not think of what you did not do. Remember instead of what you and he talked about and joked about. Just yesterday I had gone to the hospital to visit a lady friend of mine that I had planned on seeing two days ago. When I arrived, the nurses greeted me to tell me that she had just passed on about 10 minutes before my arrival. I, like yourself, did not go see her on a few occasions that I had said I would. I'm clinging to Jesus Christ because she is the second person this week that died and with both of them, my schedule did not allow me to visit as planned. Last night, my guilt was too much almost as I knew that they had both expected me to visit again. Today, like yourself, I'm clinging to our Lord and making vows to myself that never again, will I not be there. We don't know what life will bring from day to day. But we do know that God is with us and He sees our tears and hears our hearts. One day Max, there will be no sorrow, no death. We will be able to say: "Oh death, where is thy sting?" and like Paul says in Romans 8:35-39 "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?. As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered," No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Your not knowing the circumstance behind it all must make it even the harder on you. Hopefully soon someone will inform you of what happened. Do not be harsh with yourself Max. And I will try the more not to be harsh with myself. Seems today is a day to really cling to the HOPE. One day, this will never happen again. NEVER again shall we have to cry. Except tears of joy. As it is written in Romans 16:20 "The God of peace will soon crush satan under your feet. The Grace of our Lord Jesus be with you." God Blesses you Max, He is with you at this very hour. your sister in Christ Jesus our Lord, Denise | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Patti, Yes, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is our ONLY hope. Without our Savior, we would all be doomed to death and hell. The health message promoted by SDA's is an idol, if you ask me. I see far too many focusing more on what they eat or do not eat than Jesus Christ and His Saving Grace. This is astounding to me. Infact, in many instances when I'm at home and an SDA will come to pay a visit and see me eating what they themselves, forbid themselves to eat, they cast looks my way as if I've done something just awful. I get this same look when I bring up Jesus Christ's Life and Death and Resurrection or open my Bible. While I'm not saying that all SDA's do this, I will say that most, who come to my home, do. I find myself trying not to offend them with what I eat or drink or smoke (tobacco), but at the same time, defending my right in so doing these things. When I ask "Why did Jesus die"? They do come out and say, "for our sins." However, they will most always add the "but,,," As of late, who I deal with primarily are the supposed heathens. These absolutely are my delight. Infact, just last night, someone IMed me and she was giving me condolences regarding these deaths of friends of mine. Especially with regard to the death of my friend yesterday and the one two days prior to that. In the course of the conversation, I was privileged to tell of the Gospel. She point blankly asked me where do I believe these people go when they die. Well, as you can imagine, I did NOT expect any questions with regards to matters of the Spiritual Realm and I was given the opportunity to testify to the Gospel of Jesus Christ and answer the questions that I knew the answers to. We talked long and I was cheered by it. Seems that the Lord knew I could use a good strong dose of His Saving Grace by me giving the message to another. What a God we serve! He is merciful. God Bless you Patti, Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus P.S. I just had a SDA come and visit. She read some of these posts. She thinks that we could very much be on the wrong side. I get the feeling though that God will keep her coming back here! :) just a hunch by going from past experiences in such cases. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^..all things have become new, for the old life has passed away. By faith. By faith only. ^^ The old life that has passed away is the life of sin, Patti. | ||
| Patti |
I wasn't going to answer any more posts tonight, but I could not resist answering yours, Denise. You are so right about the Gospel. It our only hope. It is the only way I was able to keep my sanity during the illness and death of my beloved brother. Since there is so much talk of death tonight, I thought I would share with you a passage that has meant a lot to me lately, and which SDAs would have to deny. It is in John. It is about another sister who lost her brother. This is Martha, not Mary, the one who sat at Jesus' feet, speaking. John 11:20 When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home. 21 "Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died." One reason that I like this passage is because Martha who has been criticized for centuries for not being like her sister Mary. Here Martha begins by expressing very definitely her faith in Jesus: "..if you had been here, my brother would not have died." 22 "But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask." Again, though her brother was dead, Martha expresses her faith in Jesus. 23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again." 24 Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day." Martha believes in the resurrection, but Jesus leads her elsewhere: 25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?" Whoever lives and believes in me will never die. No true SDA could accept those words at face value. However, it seems to me that Jesus intends for Martha to do just that. Just as He said elsewhere in the chapter, Whoever believes in me has eternal life, has passed from death to life, will not see death. What powerful words. He asked Martha if she believed Him. I think she gave a rather lukewarm response, but it is a difficult (yet wonderful and exciting) thing to believe: that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord! But it is a powerful hope, one that has kept me going these past few weeks. How glad I am to have left the doubt and despair of SDA "soul sleep" behind! How glad I am that Jesus can be taken at His word with no qualifiers, disclaimers or addenda! | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, Sin. What is sin? Transgression of the Law. Who's Law? Jesus's Law as Christ is Lord. What is Jesus's Law? Love. Love fulfills the Law. Now, I will testify to the power of God: In March, it will be 2 years ago that I opened my bible. Prior to that, I had not opened one. Well once I did but some other time perhaps I will share why and what I was led to read. What made me open that Bible that day? I will say, the Holy Spirit. Since then I am a seeking person of His Word. And this, not on my own. Infact, when looking back I can see God's Mighty Hand at work in my life. I was a drunkard, a lesbian, a liar, a dope addict, a prostitute for several months to secure my drug addiction. There was no respect to people, not even myself. I was selfish, lacking morals in every other avenue and thought nothing of God's Word. Eventually, my life began changing. I would think of this God often, not knowing why. I remember my first time of getting on my knees and said "God help me." That was in 1990. Do I believe that "I" decided to get on my knees to God? Absolutely not. I believe God gave me that desire to pray to HIM. Since then, it's like one thing after another has been deleted from my life or changed completely so much that most people that knew me then, do not know me now. Did I do this? NO. God has been changing me from the inside out. He is changing my attitude, my thoughts, my outlook, my desires, plans, et-cetera. He has given me a right Spirit and a new heart. Does our life change? YES! God changes us right down to the dots and the crossing of the tees. He is like a wind, this Holy Spirit that indwells us. We hear Him and cannot help but follow. He woos us with an everlasting love that we cannot nor would not want to turn away. This is a scratch effort to show God's Power (Dunamis) His Gospel message for us is our Staff and our Rod. Our ONLY HOPE. With this we become new creatures. Just ask my family! Or old friends of mine. I have been changed and am continuing to change. God is in control, not me. I just follow. He is my Shepherd, I am His. I thank my God and Savior for all of this. In His name and to HIS Glory, amen. God Bless all, Denise | ||
| Max |
Patti, "Whoever tries to save his life shall lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it." How does one lose one's life for Christ's sake if one refuses to repent and submit to the Holy Spirit ("lose one's life") who Jesus has promised will change our lives into "a new creation" in response to the free grace of salvation? | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Patti, Yes, the doctrine of soul-sleep would have had me a very sad person in these last couple of months. Instead, with everyone that has died now, I look up and I believe they are with our Lord! This, for me, is a cheerful thought and I try to express it to others often. It does put a smile on their faces, I'll have to admit it wonderful to see it too. Of course my friend who is SDA and I have opposite beliefs on this. Infact, just recently (November), her ex-husband died. He lived across the hall from me, so we were good friends. Both my SDA friend and I were at the bedside of our dearly loved, but now departed, one. I made a commment of something like 'well, right now, he's with God and Happy!' When she looked at me, I realized that she wasn't thinking that. She was very saddened, thinking of him in unconsciousness. Simply, I just said to her, 'well, one day, we can ALL be together again.' But since then there have been several deaths and some of these deaths were mutual friends of ours. I know what she believes and she knows what I believe but we both remain silent now. For me, it is a comfort to think of ones we loved and cared for, now with our Lord. I can smile when I think and try to picture this too. God Bless you Patti and be comforted by thinking of Jerry with our Lord right as we are typing! :) Denise, your sister in Jesus Christ | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Even the verse that SDAs love to quote about the body being the temple of the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with health. It has to do with not joining one's body with the body of a prostitute.^^ Exegetically one cannot limit this verse to sexual sinning alone. Not on the basis of Paulís use of the word ìtemple,î but on the basis of his use of the word ìbody.î Notice in the following passage how Paul uses the word ìbodyî in his reference to all kinds of sinning, and not just fornication or adultery with a prostitute: NIV Romans 6:1-18:1 What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2 By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 5 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the BODY of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin-- 7 because anyone who has died has been FREED FROM SIN. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. 11 In the same way, COUNT YOURSELVES DEAD TO SIN but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do DO NOT LET SIN REIGN IN YOUR MORTAL BODY so that you obey its evil desires. 13 DO NOT OFFER THE PARTS OF YOUR BODY TO SIN, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and OFFER THE PARTS OF YOUR BODY to him as instruments of righteousness. 14 For SIN SHALL NOT BE YOUR MASTER, because you are not under law, but under grace. 15 What then? SHALL WE SIN because we are not under law but under grace? BY NO MEANS! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though YOU USED TO BE SLAVES TO SIN, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 YOU HAVE BEEN SET FREE FROM SIN and have become slaves to righteousness. The SDAs may quote whatever they like, but as far as I am concerned their text choices have no effect on this discussion. It is cheap grace that flatly contradicts clear Scripture by insisting that the already-saved sinner: * gets to go on sinning that grace may increase, * gets to keep living in sin despite Paulís declaration that we are dead to it, * was not crucified with Christ, * was not buried by baptism with Him, * is not living a new life, and * is still a slave to sin. It is rather costly grace that affirms all that Paul says about the freedom of life in Christ after salvation. | ||
| Max |
Dear Denise, I really hate to have to disagree with you, but Scripture does not say that "sin is the transgression of the law." That is a mis-translation that appears in the King James Version (KJV) translated in 1611. It has been updated to a correct translation in the New King James Version (NKJV) to be: NKJV 1 John 3:4 "...sin is lawlessness." And this is the correct translation according to the Greek text. The difference is very significant for at least three reasons: 1. The correct definition of sin ("living without the law of love") pulls the rug out from under our friends the Adventists. For a hundred and fifty years they have been using the old, incorrect definition ("sin is breaking the Ten Commandments"). They needed it to prove that sin as defined in the new covenant is the fracturing of the Ten Commandments as found in the old covenant. 2. Now that they can no longer stand on that particular rug, they've been thrown into something of a tailspin. Now they are being forced to try to amass new covenant texts to prove the ongoing validity of the Ten Commandments under the new covenant. 3. The difference is also significant in that John defines sin as living without the ONLY commandment of Jesus that sums up ALL new covenant commandments: Thou shalt love! Or, better, THOU SHALT AGAPE! Meaning, Thou shalt love with unconditional love. Or, Thou shalt love with self-sacrificing love. All who disobey this commandment of Christ are living in sin. But one cannot agape -- love others with unconditional love -- unless one has responded to the agape love of God in Christ as imposed upon the elect by free grace. So again we are back to pure gospel -- it both saves us forever AND enables and, yes, obligates us (Romans 8:12) to love God and other humans unconditionally. And anyone who teaches you that free grace does not enable and require us to love unconditionally is teaching a false grace, a false Christ, and a false gospel. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Denise, ^^Sin. What is sin? Transgression of the Law. Who's Law? Jesus's Law as Christ is Lord. What is Jesus's Law? Love. Love fulfills the Law.^^ I have to apologize to you. I saw sin defined as "transgression of the law" and responded to that without reading on. But you have correctly seen that the law John is talking about is Christ's law of love: Thou shalt agape! So you got there by a different route! Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Praise God, Denise, for that testimony. I didn't know the old Denise, only the new one, the new creation and as far as I can tell you are a good tree that is bearing good fruit. More and more blessings to you, | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Hello Max, Different route, same arrival place. Yes, Thou shalt agape. And speaking of agape, oh tomorrow night is our agape meeting including feasting on food too! Yummm..:0) God Bless, Denise | ||
| Valm |
Please forgive me for not reading the entire discussion. I go away to save babies and I have an hour of reading to do. It will wait till tomorrow but I wanted to say to DENISE. Denise, If and when you quit smoking it will be by the grace of God and have nothing to do with your entrance into the kingdom. Jesus came to give us life and to give it more abundantly. God wants you to stop smoking to improove your quality of life NOW. Just the same as he wishes me to pound the pavement, eat more veggies and loose about 50 pounds. Somewhere in your journey the Holy Spirit will convict you to do so. Perhaps now you wear your smoking as you symbol of freedom in Christ much the same way I do my earrings. Let us all know when it is power prayer time. It will take that for giving up smoking. I LOVE YOU Valerie |
