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Cindy
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 12:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Friends, On this Thanks-Giving day, Year 2000, I can't think of anything I'm more grateful for than the Grace of God, given us in the Cross of Christ.

Ravi Zacharias writes:

"The Cross stands as a mystery because it is foreign to everything we exalt--
self over principle,
power over meekness,
the quick fix over the long haul,
cover-up over confession,
escapism over confrontation,
comfort over sacrifice,
feeling over commitment,
legality over justice,
the body over the spirit,
anger over forgiveness,
man over God."

I think of the suffering I have been through... but a drop in the bucket compared to many, many people. Even though I can not understand so many things, I rest in the fact that pain and evil have been conquered by the Cross!

James Stewart writes on this triumph of Jesus versus the scheming of evil (yet 'religious'!) men and women...

"...they nailed Him to a tree, not knowing that by that very act they were bringing the world to His feet.

They gave Him a cross, not guessing that He would would make it a throne.

They flung Him outside the gates to die, not knowing that in that very moment they were lifting up all the gates of the universe, to let the King come in.

They thought to root out His doctrines, not understanding that they were implanting imperishable in the hearts of men the very name they intended to destroy.

They thought they had God with His back to the wall, pinned and helpless and defeated: they did not know that it was God Himself who had tracked them down.

He did not conquer 'in spite of' the dark mystery of evil. He conquered through it."

This 'message of the Cross' is indeed foolishness to the wisdom of this world. As 1 Corinthians 1:18 & 23-25 says,

"For THE MESSAGE OF THE CROSS is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it IS THE POWER OF GOD...
but WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, CHRIST, THE POWER OF GOD AND THE WISDOM OF GOD. For THE FOOLISHNESS OF GOD IS WISER than man's wisdom, and THE WEAKNESS OF GOD IS STRONGER than man's strength."

Isn't that great!

The Cross of Jesus is a scandal to the 'wise' and 'powerful' and 'religious works' systems of this world.

But by rejecting the Cross as absolutely NECESSARY and CENTRAL to the redemption of mankind, they are rejecting GOD'S specific remedy for reconciliation between a HOLY God and sinful human beings.

I heard this a few years ago, at a P.C.A. conference on the Cross; this was a quote from a speaker at a re-imaging conference on feminism where Sophia, (the goddess of wisdom) was being promoted. The speaker said:

"We don't need guys hanging on crosses dripping blood and all that weird stuff!!"

The Cross can only be truly believed in when we recognize our own sinfulness and utter weakness in obtaining any righteous perfection by our own efforts.

The universal religions of mankind come down to this: WE develop a good record and give it to God.

The Gospel is: that GOD develops a good record and gives it to us!!

All we 'owe' Him is a life of gratitude...

The Gospel is 'Christ crucified for you!' At the cross, God Himself was satisfying His own Holy nature, and judging sin.. HE GAVE HIMSELF...and an innocent JESUS died and substitution was made.

And, I believe (as I heard at that Presbyterian conference) that, in fact, in this message of Jesus' Finished Work for us,

"the 'GLORY OF GOD' hung suspended on the cross, with blood dripping and flies buzzing about..."

Grace always,
Cindy
Denisegilmore
Posted on Thursday, November 23, 2000 - 4:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, Thank you Cindy for this post. I will need to print this one out.
Ummm, I need parchment :(
I will glory in the FINISHED WORK of Christ our Lord. Amen.
God Bless you Cindy,
Denise
Cindy
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 7:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Friends, I am coming back to this post today; for the Cross of Christ remains my FOCAL POINT!

I have thought a lot these past few days about our continuing discussions on other threads about faith and good works...especially thinking about you, Patti, my "kindred spirit"...

Today at lunch I opened to Hebrews 10. It focuses on the ASSURANCE and CONFIDENCE we ALREADY POSSESS as BELIEVERS in the message of the CROSS, JESUS' LIFE, DEATH, AND RESURRECTION for me!

Remembering this always!

I think the key words in this passage are THEREFORE and SINCE! Paul says because our confidence is in a SURE thing, "let us"...

Listen to these wonderful words from Hebrews 10:19-25: (I have numbered the "let us" phrases from Paul)

"THEREFORE, brothers, SINCE we have CONFIDENCE to enter the Most Holy Place BY THE BLOOD OF JESUS, by a NEW AND LIVING WAY opened FOR US through the curtain, that is, His body, and SINCE we have a great priest over the house of God,"

1. "LET US draw near to God with a sincere heart
in FULL ASSURANCE of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to clease us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water."

2. "LET US hold unswervingly to THE HOPE WE PROFESS, for HE WHO PROMISED IS FAITHFUL."

3. "And, LET US consider how we may spur one another on toward LOVE and GOOD DEEDS."

4. "LET US not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but"

5. "LET US encourage one another--and all the more as you see the Day appraching."

Grace always,
Cindy
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for posting that, Cindy.

Hebrews 10 is one of my favorite chapters.
What does "LET US consider how we may
spur one another on toward LOVE and GOOD
DEEDS" mean to you?

--MC
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 8:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Cindy. I will reread that tonight at bedtime.

The more I detox, the more I find what was always there but overlooked. "since we have convidence to enter the most holy place by the blood of Jesus" You can't come more boldy to the throne of grace than that!!!

And Patti, if you are out there. You are warmly in my thoughts and prayers!
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2001 - 8:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This calls for a song. Have you heard this one?

Chorus: Lift high the cross the love of Christ proclaim till all the world adore his sacred Name

Led on their way by this triumphant sign, the hosts of God in conquering ranks combine.

Each newborn servant of the Crucified; bears on the brow the seal of him who died.

O Lord once lifted on the glorious tree, as thou hast promised, draw the world to thee.

So shall our song of triumph ever be; praise to the Crucified for victory!
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 7:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm a singin' with ya'll...:))

Patti, are you singing along? I hope so. I miss your posts.

God Bless us all,
Denise
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 7:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK here is another one, dedicated to all who live with the centrality of the cross:

In the cross of Christ I glory towering o'er the wrecks of time; all the light of sacred story gather round its head sublime.

When the woes of life o'er take me, hopes deceive and fears annoy, never shall the cross forsake me: lo, it glows with peace and joy.

Whe the sun of bliss is beaming light and love upon my way, from the croos the radiance streaming adds new luster to the day.

Bane and blessing, pain and pleasure, by the cross are sanctified; peace is there that knows no measure, joys that through all time abide.

In the crss of Christ I glory, towering o'er the wrecks of time; all the light of sacred storoy gathers round its head sublime.

I just love belting out a great tune, even if I can't carry one in a bucket.

Valerie
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 7:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Valerie,
I'd say you did a fine and dandy job at belting out that tune! :))

I'm singin' with ya! Even if I have a sore throat and can't carry a tune either :))

Do you know 'The old rugged Cross?'

God Bless you,
Denise
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 7:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK I am taking a break from singing to say that I did reread Hebrew 10 and it has some mighty powerful and beautiful stuff. And I am truely inspired, jazzed and thankful for having the full assurance of our faith that Jesus has forgiven all of my sins past present and future.

However we have to reconcile these beautiful verses with the harse words Paul gives us about deliberate and knowledgeable sin in verses 26-31

This isn't a issue of Grace plus or Grace but. This is practical common sense in any relationship. You can not habitually abuse anyone in a relationship and expect to continue in it. And being the practical gal that I am, I am not forsure that if we were all allowed to do so that we wouldn't get to heaven and turn it right into what we wish to leave behind here.

I know that people are feeling rather upset that some carry a torch for this point but it is in the Bible in no uncertain terms.

We have all come from a mighty toxic background and it is understandable our fear and defensiveness against the hint of righteousness by works or self righteousness. I encourage all of us to think about not letting the pendulum swing too far the other way.

I will conclued that there hasn't been anything in the Bible that God has asked me that I can't give the 'ole college try at doing and that isn't beneficial to me having balanced and healthy relationships with all of those I encounter. The great thing about it all is that whatever I try at as (humble as the outcome) and what ever I boo boo at (as disastorous as the outcome) HIS GRACE WILL ALWAYS BE THERE FOR ME!!!!!!

Please forgive me if I have hurt or offened anyone. You are all very dear to me and I don't want to do so. I will be back with another Cross of Christ song soon, I can feel one coming up. Valerie
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,

I am not at all offended. You speak what the Bible says and for that I am not ashamed either. The Bible is God's Word.

Although, I for one, believe that we won't desire to sin, once Jesus comes. I believe differently than most maybe but it's how I believe.

I believe that we will be Glorified. That word means a whole lot!

People think of a Glorified body but our minds and thoughts are part of that body. Our very brains will be changed is how I believe.

Now I could very well be wrong but I won't know until Jesus Comes.

In the meanwhile, I concur that there are Biblical principles set before us to live by. And we should live by them to our best.

But, what saves us is or has already been done. Jesus was alive, was crucified and died, did resurrect and is alive for us today as our High Priest in the order of Melchezidec forever intereceding in our behalf.

He will come back and we will live with Him for eternity.

God Bless,
Denise, your sister in Christ Jesus
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 8:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We need to or must believe in the Son of God and repent also. If we want Salvation. We must be a believer in Jesus Christ as the Son of God and repent.

God Bless,
Denise
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen Denise.

Valerie
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 9:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just have to sing one more tune before bedtime for me. Anthony is tucked. Joseph is kinda there and Joe is watching a PBS program on the history of jazz.

Please join me:

When I survey the wondrous cross where the young Prince of Glory died, my richest gain I count but loss, and pour contempt on all my pride.

Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast, save in the cross of Christ, my God: all the vain things that charm me most, I sacrifice them to his blood.

See, from his head, his hands, his feet, sorrow and love flow mingled down! Did e'er such love and sorrow meet, or thorns compose so rich a crown?

Were the whole realm of nature mine, that were an offering far too small; love so amazing so divine, demands my soul, my life, my all.

Written by Isaac Watt (1674-1748)

Good night all.
Denisegilmore
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2001 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is beautifully true!

Thank you for posting those lyrics.

God Bless you Valerie and goodnight*

Denise
Cindy
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 7:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie, thanks for the songs; I love music so much...

Hi Denise! I hope your sore throat is better...

Max, You ask what does this mean to me:

"And, LET US consider how we may spur one another on toward LOVE and GOOD DEEDS."

We really should "consider" "how" to do this. The motivation behind it all is so important to me. As I think it is to you, also!

I think it all goes back to, (or starts at, and never leaves! :-))) the absolute CONFIDENCE and FULL ASSURANCE we have BECAUSE of CHRIST'S WORK ALONE.

I will no longer live in fear of condemnation because Jesus has already seated me in heavenly places with Him!

We have unlimited ACCESS to God through Him; we are BELOVED children of the KING!

I know He has the STRENGTH when I am weak, He is FAITHFUL when I waver, He will NEVER leave me, even when I stray...He will be "hounding" me, pursuing me to return to His embrace and care.

How then do we live...? How do we present this to others so that it gives encouragement to live a Godly-focused life?

Somehow I feel the stress must not be on negative fear tactics...

By preaching the historic facts of Christ's life and death, the power of the Holy Spirit is present to work on the hearers!

I like what Oswald Chambers says:

"If we preach the EFFECTS of Redemption in human life instead of the REVELATION REGARDING JESUS, the result in those who listen is not NEW BIRTH, but a refined spriitual culture, and the Spirit of God cannot witness to this because such preaching is in another domain...as we proclaim His truth HE can create in souls the things which HE ALONE can do."

Perhaps it is my personality that needs to see the superiority of that costly grace...the freedom and joy involved even amidst the suffering involved. I am getting teary thinking about it all...

Maybe that is why Paul says to consider HOW to spur one another on...perhaps different personalities need different types of approaches.

Everything must still be given in love and ALWAYS, ALWAYS with the basis of the Finished work of Christ as ones' only foundation and reason for "love and good deeds."

And we realize our attempts at spurring one another on are imperfect. Only the Holy spirit can truly spur anyone on!

And yet, Paul says we are to keep meeting together (even here? :-)), and keep encouraging, spurring each other on, in our journey together IN Grace!

Blessings to all of you here. To me, the motivation comes from knowing I already AM a beloved child of God. I can't imagine not having Him in my life. For as believers, Christ really is "our life" (Colossions 3:9)

Grace always,
Cindy
Shereen
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 7:42 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok,

Please have patience with me but for some reason I cannot get a few things into my thick head.

How do I know for sure about tithing and Sabbath and the state of the dead. Those are the ones I keep coming to.

I am inlove with the idea that I am saved but just can't bring myself to believe it.

I would love to rid myself of all the deep seated damage being an adventist has done to me but it seems to have taken on a life of its own. I would like to know what is biblical and what is EGW on the 3 points above. It would be so nice to actually feel saved and not be afraid of - Sabbath, tithe, state of dead - rather then just paying lip service to them.

Do I sound confused? I am! I need to believe and need proof in order to believe. I don't, for a second, believe in EGW, not one bit. I do, however, think that alot of what I believe to be biblical isn't biblical at all but the teaching of the SDA and EGW. Like I said once before, I really didn't think EGW had any effect on me but I guess I am really off base there. I am so surprised about how much I was taught about the bible that really wasn't the bible after all but EGW. This really angers me.

Like you Valerie, I am in need of detoxing. I need all your guys help with it though. My thinking is clouded and I am not very trustful of anyone anymore.

Boy, what a release it would be to get all this toxic thinking out of me for once and for all.

Desperately Seeking Answers here,

Shereen
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cindy,

Praise our Sovereign for your beautiful post.
Since you waited a couple of days to answer, I
thought maybe you had maybe stopped
posting. Forgive my faithlessness.

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

God loves you more than you love yourself.

I don't have time right now to answer your
specific concerns -- tithing, Sabbath and the
state of the dead.

But I would suggest that you go back into
some previous threads where these are
discussed and read them.

Also, concerning the Sabbath, have you read
Dale Ratzlaff's book on the Sabbath? (Don't
remember the name right now -- senior
moment.)

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Thursday, January 11, 2001 - 2:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shereen,

Our Adventist friends have it wrong. They think
that they have come out of the world. But they
ARE the world. The Adventist church is like
Martin Luther's cloister. In it he was obeying
the rules and regulations of the Catholic
Church.

And, as Bonhoeffer has pointed out, when
Luther left the cloister, he was leaving the
world!

Similarly, by your leaving the Adventist church
you are also leaving the world. But just leaving
the world is not enough. You already have
Godís really grace. Now you must, like the
disciples called by Jesus, take up your cross
and follow Him.

Max of the Cross

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