| Author | Message | ||
| Terry |
Wendy/Breezy, Perhaps you misunderstand Paul's use of the word "law." He is clearly talking about the "Torah," which is found beginning in Exodus. There are 613 commandments, which include the "Ten." The Bible tells us that the Ten Commandments are "The Covenant" (Old or "first"). Let me quote: "...And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments." Exodus 34:28b "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone." Deuteronomy 4:13 "When I went up to the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant which the Lord had made with you, then I remained on the mountain forty days and nights; I neither ate bread nor drank water." Deuteronomy 9:9 "...the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant." Deut. 9:11 "...and the two tablets of the covenant were in my two hands." Deut. 9:15 Okay, we have established that the Ten Commandments were the Covenant made between God and Israel. Now back to my outrage at the way this person was twisting Scripture to make his point! Wendy, please read these texts for yourself. In Hebrews 8:7 it says, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. What was the first covenant? Read Hebrews 9:1: "Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary." So we know that the first covenant was the one given at Sinai (at least in this context; there were the Noahcain and the Abrahamic covenants prior). Now, Wendy, please read Hebrews 8:8,9, "For finding fault with them, He says, 'Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, when I will effect a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah; NOT like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt; for they did not continue in my covenant, and I did not care for them, says the Lord." Wendy notice that the new covenant that God gives has absolutely no likeness to the first covenant, given at Sinai. It doesn't say that the covenant will be put some place new nor transferred from stone to flesh! It says there is no likeness between the two. This was a prophecy given in the book of Jeremiah 31:31-34 that was fulfilled at the cross. (really at the last supper) Back to Hebrews, Wendy, verse 13 of chapter 8 says, "When He said, 'a new covenant,' He made the FIRST obsolete." "But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear." I hope it is now clear that the Ten Commandments and the rest of the Torah/Law has been retired! It still exists, it just has no value anymore for those who are in Christ Jesus! I have an old computer that is obsolete. It still exists, yet it has no purpose or value anymore. Wendy, I like your spirit! Hang in there and don't confuse "old tapes" with the Holy Spirit. I always claim this verse when I study: "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will disclose to you (Wendy) what is to come." John 16:13 You're prescious, Wendy Terry | ||
| Breezy |
Terry, That is very sweet. Even if I have to agree with most of what you say here, I do not agree that the Decalogue is included in it. I am sorry. Believe it or not I have read the Bible,etc. for myself. Have asked for the Holy Spirit(forgive you for doubting this). Have felt that He has led me into all truth. That is why I was asking of everyone last night, "whose Spirit is the true Holy Spirit"? Or better yet"will the real Holy Spirit, please stand up"? Sorry. I believe I am led, You believe you are led. Both cannot be right. See the problem. Wendy | ||
| Terry |
Wendy, I think you are cute! Your spirit is really a firey one! Red hair, did you say? In all seriousness, though, can you show me, using Scripture, the strength of your argument that the Decalogue is not included as part of the the Old Covenant or First Covenant. Can you show me where, in the Bible, that the Decalogue is a law all by itself, separate from the other 603 commandments? What are you doing up so late? Have you studied my website yet? I am very willing to be persuaded into your "camp" if you can use Holy Scripture to do so. Smiles, Terry | ||
| Breezy |
Terry, Flattery will get you everywhere. I am up so late cause I'm a nut! Complete addict! I have to try your website still. I get so busy answering posts that I don't have much time for anything else(hint,hint):) I'll tell you what. If I can drag myself away from this forum long enough I will attempt to do what you have asked. K? I'll bet you are. *dimples* Glad to see another friendly face, Wendy | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Wendy, I think you out-do me on the posting. At least right now. It must be my Irish-Scotch that just has to knock heads with you;-(( And I certainly do hear your red hair and freckles come out in a post or two now and then! Maryann | ||
| Breezy |
I don't know Maryann, you're really close. Maybe it's a tie. Hey let's agree to go to bed k? 1....2.....3.....GOODNIGHT!!!!!!! WENDY | ||
| Lydell |
Wendy, you keep telling us that you have studied the scripture to arrive at your beliefs. We keep asking for you to show us the scriptures that support your beliefs, and yet you never quote them. If what you say is true and you have gone back and reexamined the evidence with an open and truly searching heart, then you should have found even more verses that supported your original position. Where are they? If the Bible is truly the only authority you have been relying upon for your beliefs, then you shouldn't have a problem doing this. We are concerned for you because you say that "salvation is only in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ" yet then you turn around and with everything else you say add a "but" and that "but" is you have to keep the 10 commandments to be acceptible to God. By your own words you are saying that when we stand before the judgment seat, the Lord's judment of our fitness for heaven will be our actions in keeping 10 rules rather than in being covered by the blood of Christ. I John 5:11-13 "And the testimony is this: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." Eph. 1:13 And you also, were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were sealed in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory. I COr. 6:11 "And that is what some of your were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." So Wendy, where are your verses that say that we are not "washed, sanctified, justified" "sealed by the Holy Spirit" and that we can't "know that we have eternal life"? Where is your verse that says that we are "washed, sanctified, and justified because you are also keeping the ten commandments"? This isn't a matter of disagreement about some minor points of doctrine. What we are trying to determine is how we are saved. If it is by our acceptance of the covering of Christ's robe of His sacrifice alone, then you can't add an additional requirement of keeping the 10. If we are saved by our acceptance of Christ's sacrifice and then we have to perfectly keep the 10 then we are all doomed. I Tim. 1:9-11 tells us" We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me." and v. 15 "Here is a trutworshy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I am the worst. But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life." Notice that it doesn't go on to talk about "and will keep the 10 commandments." Until you grasp that, you cannot live in the knowledge of your freedom in Christ. II Cor. 3:6-18 "He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, (Wendy, tell me what he is speaking of here!) came with glory, so that the Inraelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses becasue of its glory, fading thought it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men (what did he just tell you that was? the 10) is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now (hello...the 10 no longer has any glory) in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away (what were you just told was fading away and no longer has glory?) came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! Therefore," (you always have to find out what the "therefore" is there for so go back and read it all again before you continue), "Therefore, since we have such a hope we are very bold." Why are we bold? Because we aren't living by the letter of the ministry that kills. We are living by the Spirit. keep reading in that passage to the end of the chapter ..."Now the Lord is the Spirit, and wehre the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who wiith unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory (do we reflect his glory because of our actions, or because we are gazing on Christ?) are being transformed into his likeness with eer-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." Wendy, the difference between what we believe and what you are saying is that you are still looking at the list of rules as your guide and asking the Lord to help you keep the rules to be acceptible. We are looking to the Lord and asking him to change us within to be a person who automatically lives out a life of loving God and people. We don't spend a moment of our time thinking on "thou shalt not". We spend our time praying "Lord, I love you. Thank you for judging me acceptible in your sight inspite of my rotten self. Lord, thank you for keeping your presence inside of me inspite of me. Lord, put your love for this person inside me, love them through me." Guys, am I right? Is that how you spend your time with the Lord as well? Perhaps it would help her understand the difference to hear how we pray? | ||
| Lydell |
Here's another example for you Wendy. At our church's prayer group this week we prayed for the whole body within our church. We didn't pray, not even once, "convict ____ of the importance of worshipping you instead of his job" or "convict _____ of her need to show more respect to her mother." No, what we prayed was for God to increase our hunger to be in the word daily, to remind us of the importance of spending more time in prayer, to increase our compassion for the lost, to give us spiritual eyes and ears to recognize the ones who are hurting, to release the Spirit's giftings to minister to those folks, for boldness in witness. Each time we meet the Lord seems to lay on our hearts a different theme for the evening. But you know, I can't think of one time when our prayers have ever been to remind someone of the ten. Conviction of sin for the one who has never accepted Christ, yes. But for the believer, our prayers are always along the lines of stirring them with the Spirit's presence. It's His Spirit living in us, breathing life into the word of God, melting our hearts with love for Him that brings the change of outward behavior that reflects the love of God. The love relationship is what comes first, the character changes flow out of that. It's not in doing something to have a perfect character, it's a matter of naturally being who we are. It's not a matter of striving to not cheat on my spouse it's a matter of being so desperately in love with my spouse that there is no room left for any temptation to possibly move in. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Lydell wrote: It's not a matter of striving to not cheat on my spouse it's a matter of being so desperately in love with my spouse that there is no room left for any temptation to possibly move in. Sherry: Yes, yes, yes!!!! Amen. Halleluiah! -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | ||
| Terry |
Lydell, you are on the mark! Your post brought tears to my eyes! ( I am a tender-hearted guy)Amen! Unfortunately, that "old veil" remaineth over Wendy's understanding. Wendy, pray for the removal of the veil that covers your heart when you read Moses (the Ten Commandments). You have indescribable joy waiting for you! We have ALL been exactly where you are, Breezy-child! Keep that Bible open. Ask God to help you have an understanding (claim John 16:13) of 2 Corinthians 3. Don't be araid to go into unknown territory. Jesus will not leave or forsake you. Remember the Bereans in Acts 17? Paul came to them with a totally new message of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They knew God already, and had to go to Scripture to see if Paul was teaching righteous stuff or not. They found he was on the mark. Have a blessed day, all...off to work Terry | ||
| Breezy |
Lydell, Why? I have given texts before and all I get are rebuttals. I said on another thread. This will not serve God. You all make rather hasty assumptions in judging the quality of my relationship with Jesus based on your own experience. I could be offended but I won't. Loving you all, even when you try to drag me down, Wendy | ||
| Susan |
Lydell, I totally agree with you. Prayer is so unbelievably different now. I always try to start my prayers with praises of thanksgiving and adoration to God. Sometimes when I'm thanking Him I truly forget the burdens that I wanted to bring up. Spirit led prayer is also something that is totally new to me. I actually heard a priest one evening talking on t.v. about St.Augustine(I think). The lesson he was talking about was the connection that believers have through prayer; The Holy Spirit prays through us as we pray to the Father and Jesus Christ is also praying to the Father on our behalf. I think this is so cool! It's like a complete prayer loop. What do you think? In Christ, Susan | ||
| Lydell |
Susan, yes it is amazing what happens when we begin our prayers with heartfelt worship. By opening ourselves to him and just affirming who He is and what He has done in our lives and what He is able to do. It certainly helps put things into perspective! One thing I have found so fascinating in our church is to see the number of people who have found deliverance from a burden they have carried just through worship and without anyone speaking to them. And another one that always amazes me is to see someone come to church very happy, had a good week, everything is going well in their lives, they can give you praise reports and all of that. Then worship starts, they are obviously joyfully into worship, and suddenly you notice them weeping. And if you go up to them and ask them what is wrong, they will say something like, "I don't know! I was just standing here lost in worship and suddenly I found myself crying. I don't know what's wrong! There's just something wrong." And it may take several weeks before they find out what it is. What "is wrong" is simply that because they opened up to the Holy Spirit, he was able to step in and touch a part of their heart that needed healing or maybe correction. And it can be something that they have never been even a little aware of before. This didn't happen because they were looking at the 10. It happened because they were gazing on their Savior. It isn't because they are gazing on "his perfect character as reflected in the law". No, they were affirming His power, His overwhelming love, His passion for His children, and thanking Him for being who He is: the all-sufficient one, our provider, our healer, our God who sees, the self-existent one, the Lord our banner, the one who is peace, our shepherd, our righteousness and sanctifier, the one who is always there, the God of grace and mercy. Wendy, we most certianly are not in an effort to try to drag you down. What we would like to drag down though, is the walls of leglism that will always hold you back from tasting the incomparable great joy that comes from truly honestly resting in the arms of Jesus, the one who IS your sabbath rest, nothing added, no "but then I must..." Resting by resting, not "resting" by working. | ||
| Bmorgan |
LYDELL, Terry, Susan and Sherry 2, Thank you for sharing. Yes, yes, yes! Oh the joy to know Who Jesus is. I know understand the song: "Everybody ought to know, who Jesus is." Wendy, no one is trying to or is judging your relationship with God or (God forbid) wanting to drag you down. It is not just personal opinion. However, We cannot help but share the experience of our lives with the life changing reality of Jesus Christ. We are SHOUTING softly so you can hear our hearts. God gives much more than a list. Christ is Lord. Blessings BMorgan | ||
| Darrell |
Here is an excerpt from Luther's Commentary on Galatians which I particularly liked: ***** VERSE 27. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Paul quotes the allegorical prophecy of Isaiah to the effect that the mother of many children must die desolately, while the barren woman shall have an abundance of children. (Isaiah 54:1.) He applies this prophecy to Hagar and Sarah, to the Law and the Gospel. The Law as the husband of the fruitful woman procreates many children. For men of all ages have had the idea that they are right when they follow after the Law and outwardly perform its requirements. Although the Law has many children, they are not free. They are slaves. As servants they cannot have a share in the inheritance, but are driven from the house as Ishmael was cast out of the house of Abraham. In fact the servants of the Law are even now barred from the kingdom of light and liberty, for "he that believeth not, is condemned already." (John 3:18.) As the servants of the Law they remain under the curse of the Law, under sin and death, under the power of the devil, and under the wrath and judgment of God. On the other hand, Sarah, the free Church, seems barren. The Gospel of the Cross which the Church proclaims does not have the appeal that the Law has for men, and therefore it does not find many adherents. The Church does not look prosperous. Unbelievers have always predicted the death of the Church. The Jews were quite certain that the Church would not long endure. They said to Paul: "As concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against." (Acts 28:22.) No matter how barren and forsaken, how weak and desolate the Church may seem, she alone is really fruitful before God. By the Gospel she procreates an infinite number of children that are free heirs of everlasting life. The Law, "the old husband," is really dead. But not all people know it, or want to know it. They labor and bear the burden and the heat of the day, and bring forth many children, children that are bastards like themselves, children born to be put out of the house like Ishmael to perish forever. Accursed be that doctrine, life, and religion which endeavors to obtain righteousness before God by the Law and its creeds. The scholastics think that the judicial and ceremonial laws of Moses were abolished by the coming of Christ, but not the moral law. They are blind. When Paul declares that we are delivered from the curse of the Law he means the whole Law, particularly the moral law which more than the other laws accuses, curses, and condemns the conscience. The Ten Commandments have no right to condemn that conscience in which Jesus dwells, for Jesus has taken from the Ten Commandments the right and power to curse us. Not as if the conscience is now insensitive to the terrors of the Law, but the Law cannot drive the conscience to despair. "There is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." (Romans 8:1.) "If the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed." (John 8:36.) You will complain: "But I am not doing anything." That is right. You cannot do a thing to be delivered from the tyranny of the Law. But listen to the glad tidings which the Holy Ghost brings to you in the words of the prophet: "Rejoice, thou barren." As Christ is greater than the Law, so much more excellent is the righteousness of Christ than the righteousness of the Law. In one more respect the Law has been abolished. The civil laws of Moses do not concern us, and should not be put back in force. That does not mean that we are exempt from obedience to the civil laws under which we live. On the contrary, the Gospel commands Christians to obey government "not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake." (Romans 13:5.) Neither do the ordinances of Moses or those of the Pope concern us. But because life cannot go on without some ordinances, the Gospel permits regulations to be made in the Church in regard to special days, times, places, etc., in order that the people may know upon what day, at what hour, and in what place to assemble for the Word of God. Such directions are desirable that "all things be done decently and in order." (I Cor. 14:40.) These directions may be changed or omitted altogether, as long as no offense is given to the weak. Paul, however, refers particularly to the abolition of the moral law. If faith alone in Christ justifies, then the whole Law is abolished without exception. And this the Apostle proves by the testimony of Isaiah, who bids the barren to rejoice because she will have many children, whereas she that has a husband and many children will be forsaken. Isaiah calls the Church barren because her children are born without effort by the Word of faith through the Spirit of God. It is a matter of birth, not of exertion. The believer too works, but not in an effort to become a son and an heir of God. He is that before he goes to work. He is born a son and an heir. He works for the glory of God and the welfare of his fellowmen. ***** If you would like to read the whole commentary for yourself, try Christian Classics Ethereal Library. | ||
| Max |
Hi Darrell, My access was blocked, presumably by a hired hacker paid by the GC. Just trying to see if this works. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Hi Darrell again, I just wrote a long reply to your excerpt from Luther's Commentary on Romans. Then, just as I was about to click the "send" button, some internal cyber-demon froze my screen (iMac). Grrr! Basically I agreed 100% and pointed out that Luther DID say, "The believer too works, but not in an effort to become a son and an heir of God. He is that before he goes to work. He is born a son and an heir. He works for the glory of God and the welfare of his fellowmen." Then I quoted the Eleven Commandments of Hebrews 13, meant for new covenant Christians, for recipients of God's true grace, for those DECLARED righteous, holy, perfect and -- yes, even sinless: Good works to do! Human effort to put forth! Finally, I went to the web site you so graciously posted and bookmarked it in my favorites folder. God's grace, my good friend, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Shockingly -- for SDAs -- omitted from the Eleven Commandments of Hebrews 13 are any references to Sabbathkeeping, "unclean food" aversion, vegetarianism (much less veganism), jewelry avoidance, baptism-by-immersion, Sunday-worship abhorance, EGW adherence, "teetotalism for thy stomach's sake," etc. I wonder why. Any answers out there, my dear Adventist friends? Max of the Cross | ||
| Darrell |
Thanks Max for your comments. Here is a good quote from the middle of the "11 commandments of Hebrews 13": "We have an altar from which those who serve the tabernacle have no right to eat. For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin, are burned outside the camp. Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people through His own blood, suffered outside the gate. So, let us go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach." (NASB) Just in case anyone out there missed it, these verses use day of atonement typology applied to the crucifixion, meaning the anti-typical day of atonement was almost 2000 years ago, not 156 years. Compare these verses with Leviticus 16 and see for yourself! | ||
| Max |
Excellent choice, Darrell. From which arises the question: Do SDAs -- who believe that Christ's blood COVERS, rather than CLEANSES, all sin, meaning the atonement was not complete at the cross -- are among those who have "no right" to eat of the altar of Hebrews 13:10? Food for thought. |
