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Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 7:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Galatians 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel--
7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.



"To paraphrase this sentence: 'These false apostles do not merely trouble you, they abolish Christ's Gospel. They act as if they were the only true Gospel-preachers. For all that they muddle Law and Gospel. As a result they pervert the Gospel. Either Christ must live and the Law perish, or the Law remains and Christ must perish; Christ and the Law cannot dwell side by side in the conscience. It is either grace or law. To muddle the two is to eliminate the Gospel of Christ entirely.'

"It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether."
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

Thanks for rejoining the discussion.

You seem to be denying the indwelling of the
Holy Spirit as something that begins inside
the new believer.

All three persons of the godhead -- the Father
God, the Son God, and the Holy Spirit God --
dwell fully in the Holy Spirit.

So to deny indwelling is to deny God. For
when the believer looks within and sees the
"exceeding sinfulness of sin" there, sees "the
filthy rags of one's own good deeds" there,
then it is that one realizes that it is the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit that allows one to
compare and contrast one's own status
before God with Christ's Commandment:
"Thou shalt love."

For, ěLove does no harm to its neighbor.
Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.î NIV
Romans 13:10.

Max of the Cross
Valm
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Patti,

Glad you are back.

I greatly respect your passion to speak of Christ's Grace or Robe of Righteousness being the only true Gospel message. And I see the concern if we over speak of Christ's transforming power, lest me make total hypocrites of ourselves when we do such foolish things, sometimes in the name of Christ himself!!!

I was thinking of a recent event that just occured in Seattle where "Christians" from the midwest were traveling to our city to picket outside the Episcopalian cathedral due to the recent ordination of a gay deacon. They travelled all of this way not to talk about the tremendous love of God or his grace but to use Scripture as a front for their own hate of a group of people. They were focusing on their definition of sin rather than keeping their focus on Christ and the Cross.

I bring this example up not to open a discussion on the issue they were picketing. I was just thinking about it yesterday in light of some of the things you have said. And believe it or not I could see your points about the danger in EVER focusing on WHAT WE DO. And I can see your reasoning in being so protective about Christ's grace being sufficient.

I do not agree with everything you say. But I do believe that even in the disagreement some of the things you say have made a positive impact on my perspective.

I know that you say there is no "Grace, but...."
However, there are so many texts in the New Testemant that encourage us to live a New Life in Christ Jesus.

Sincerely, what do the texts in the Bible refering to the law mean to you? Not the Old Covenant ones, the New Covenant ones. Such as the ones which refer to the laws he will write in our hearts. Hebrews 10:16 And how do you reconcile Hebrews 10:26-31.

I wish this conversation to continue in a positive and fruitful manner. I just believe that these things all must be understood and not overlooked. If they are overlooked, I am wondering how much of the New Testemant we would be "throwing out" for a lack of a better term.

And even it its rag tag and humble way, I want to do my best for God. Much the same way I wish to offer my best for my family because I love them. I will never be perfect and that is why I hold on tight to Jesus, but I still want to do my best.

Once again I am really glad you are back.

Valerie
Colleentinker
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 4:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Welcome, Patti!

Our pastor spoke so clearly about this very subject last Sunday. He preached from 2 Corinthians 3, and he talked about the fact that when we accept Jesus we receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, AFTER we are saved, changes us from the inside. This is not part of our salvation. Our salvation is totally accomplished by the work of Christ. But when he indwells us, we are completely new creations.

The New Testament commands to live holy lives are God's call to born-again Christians. But it's no longer a call to get rid of our sins. It's a call to listen to the Holy Spirit and to allow Him to transform our desires and hearts and to provide His strength to gradually change us into the people he wants us to be.

He did point out that this process is gradual, and often we aren't ourselves aware of the subtle ways we are changing. What God calls us to do is to gradually and continually submit to him those things in our lives that he reveals we need to submit to him. Ultimately he calls us to submit everything to him--every relationship, healthy or not, every dream, desire, weakness, even our strengths. And the Holy Spirit transforms these things--gradually!--into places of grace and joy and His presence.

God really does change us--and it's such an amazing and joyful thing to begin realizing that we can experience increasing trust and contentment and faith and peace because the Holy Spirit is making us into the people God designed us to be! God continually brings cirucumstances into our lives that are opportunities for us to act in trust and faith. He is sovereign, and his discipline of us includes life events and circumstances that allow us to grow and change.

All of this happens INSIDE the context of being already, securely saved. It's such a wonderful thing to experience the love of Jesus in an ongoing, growing way. And it's not always easy. Sometimes he requires that we walk through great challenges. And it is a gradual process.

Praising God for salvation by grace through faith alone, and praising him for his continuous love that challenges us to submit and grow!

Colleen
Valm
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 5:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Patti,

I can not remeber which thread you asked, but the coversations all seem to be so closely joined that I will put it here.

The question had to do with the Bible not talking about transformation of Character.

I did a quick search which is not nearly as adequate but came up with a couple.

Romans 12;2 And be not conformed to this world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 4:22-24. that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; and be renwed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, whcih after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (This text goe on to describe certain behaviors to put away)

Colossians 3:10 And have put on the new man which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of him that created him. (This text again is surrounded by behaviors whcih God wishes us to partake of, not for his benefit but for ours.)

It goes on to say in 15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts to the which allso ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful. Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one antoher in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. and whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

What do you make of these and similar texts which imply a changed heart, changed behavior and renewal of spirit?

Valerie
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
We are righteous ONLY by faith. All of the works of our hands are still "filthy rags." The righteousness by which we are acceptable to God is an alien righteousness, the very obedience that Jesus Christ Himself worked out on this earth for us, which is credited to those who believe.

Yes, we are rewarded according to our works. In Christ, our works are without spot and perfect. But in our flesh, our works are corrupt through and through until the day that we are changed "in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye." Our reward is certain if we are in Christ. If not, then we stand in the judgment on our own merit.

We have all things now, including a changed heart and a perfect obedience to all of the requirements of God by faith, and by faith only. If it were in reality right now, then, as Paul said, we would have something to brag about. But our righteousness is not of this world; it is stored up in heaven, waiting for us where it cannot be corrupted by the sinfulness of this earth.

1 Peter 1:3 All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead.
1:4 For God has reserved a priceless inheritance for his children. It is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay.
1:5 And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 7:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

^^But our righteousness is not of this world; it
is stored up in heaven, waiting for us where it
cannot be corrupted by the sinfulness of this
earth.^^

NIV Luke 17:20-21: ^^Once, having been
asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of
God would come, Jesus replied, "The
kingdom of God [or heaven] does NOT come
with your careful observation, nor will people
say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the
kingdom of God IS WITHIN you.^^

Therefore, if the kingdom of heaven is within
us who believe, then the obedience of Christ
is RIGHT HERE ON THIS SINFUL EARTH,
though uncorrupted, as well as on the other
side of the clouds.

It is not an infinite ocean of physical space that
protects us against corruption, but rather the
presence of Christ himself and heaven itself
within all true believers.

MC
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 8:33 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,
I agree with everything you said in the most recent post above. And I couldn't agree more heartedly that only if our works are in Christ Jesus are they perfect!!!!I suppose I do not consider my works my righteousness, just a response of love.

I am for sure that the word filthy rags comes from the Bible but it doesn't do much to promote healthy self esteem so I wouldn't use it as my choice. But I do agree that what I do is pretty humble when compared to our Almighty God.

However, my two questions were not adressed. The one being how to reconcile the quotes which encourage us to live a new life in Christ and the other on your opinion of our lives becoming new and transformed (here on earth).

I have a deep concern that this conversation may not be good for me to continue to participate in. I think that all parties have it in their mind their opinions and do not come to the discussion to learn but to convince others of their opinions. And I find myself included in this "dig in my heels mode". I do not like it when I find myself grabbing my Bible to proove my point. And I regret that I did so yesterday.

Good luck all in this conversation. See you on other threads!

Valerie
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Val,
Thanks for trying to hang in there with me.

You wrote:
I agree with everything you said in the most recent post above. And I couldn't agree more heartedly that only if our works are in Christ Jesus are they perfect!

Pardon me for being nitpicky here, but OUR works are never even close to perfect. The righteousness that justifies us, that brings us into a rightful standing with God is the righteousness that Jesus worked out on this earth. It was the perfect fulfillment of the law. It was a righteousness in which we could have no part; all we can do is trust that His righteousness is sufficient for us and covers us completely. It credited to the account of those who trust in Jesus Christ, but it is never inherently a part of them. As Paul says, it is a righteousness from God, a righteousness that comes to us by faith only, from first to last. And if something is by faith only, it is something that cannot be tangibly discerned.

I suppose I do not consider my works my righteousness, just a response of love.

And there is nothing wrong with that. As long as we remember that our works contribute nothing toward our acceptance with God. We must keep Jesus at the forefront and in our focus at all times. We always remain hopeless sinners saved only by the mercy (grace) of God in forgiving and accepting us for the sake of the truly righteous life and atoning death of Jesus Christ.

I am for sure that the word filthy rags comes from the Bible but it doesn't do much to promote healthy self esteem so I wouldn't use it as my choice. But I do agree that what I do is pretty humble when compared to our Almighty God.

But, Valerie, the Gospel isn't about "healthy self esteem*;" on the contrary, it is about humility and repentence of our sinnerhood. Those who do not see themselves as hopeless sinners will not feel the need of a Savior. Think of the times in the Bible that Jesus declared a person saved or "justified." I can think of two right off hand.

1. The Pharisee and the publican.

Some people say the difference between the prayers of these two individuals was that the Pharisee was proud of his works, and the publican was humble. While this is true, closer inspection will show that the Pharisee actually gave the "credit" to God for his pious living: He did not say, "Look at me, I am not like other sinners." He said, "I thank THEE, God, that I am not as other men are."

The publican, on the other hand, did not even feel worthy enough to lift his eyes to heaven. He smote his breast and bemoaned his depraved condition: "Lord, be merciful to me, a sinner." That is the prayer that justifies. And we never step beyond the need to pray this prayer in this lifetime.

2. The thief on the cross.

What "good works" did the thief on the cross do to merit eternal life? None. His words were very much like those of the publican:
"We are worthy to die for our crimes, but this Man has done no wrong. Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom."

Saving faith always is an expression of unworthiness. Why? Those who do not feel their helplessness do not feel their need of a Savior. The moment we feel that we are doing pretty well, the moment we start depending less and less on the mercy of God.

Hebrews indicates that we were never meant to feel that we are literally cleansed from sin; otherwise we would not feel guilty, we would not feel the great need of our Savior:

Heb 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.


However, my two questions were not adressed. The one being how to reconcile the quotes which encourage us to live a new life in Christ and the other on your opinion of our lives becoming new and transformed (here on earth).

We are transformed by faith. I am quoting a dear friend of mine here (thank you, Rayna):

You know I was thinking that in the Bible it states that 'Whatsoever is not of faith is sin" and faith is the "evidence of things not seen". So the "righteousness by faith" that we are justified by is not seen in this lifetime. It is in heaven. So all this so called righteousness in people "with the aid of the Holy Spirit" they say, is just not biblical. If we can see it, it is sinful. Like you said "All our righteousness is filthy rags in God's sight". The righteousness we are justified by is in heaven in Jesus at the right hand of God, and it is imputed to us when we believe that God gave us Jesus as our righteousness.
And in the bible it says, "For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. " When Jesus comes we will see this righteousness which we possess only by faith now. We are sinners now and forever in this
lifetime, and our only hope is in God's mercy to us in Jesus.


People filled with the Spirit are able to live beyond their sight; they are able to trust in things that they cannot see. They know that although their human flesh remains sinful and rebellious, that in heaven they have a new life. They are citizens of the kingdom of heaven right now, and nothing sinful will ever enter the kingdom of heaven. It is theirs by faith.

Paul uses the example of an inheritance in Galatians. Probably the best example. If you are a teenager who has an inheritance that is kept in trust until you reach 21, you know it is there. You can depend on it. You can plan on it. You do not need to think like a penniless orphan, even though you may be totally poverty stricken at this time, because you know that you are going to come into a marvelous inheritance. You can think like a rich person now; because you know that the inheritance is coming and nothing can change it. That is how it is with the kingdom of heaven. We may have little or no evidence of our inheritance on this earth, but our faith keeps us convinced and assured of its presence in heaven, the inevitability of our taking possession of it in reality some day. It is by faith, and by faith only, that we possess a new life, a new body, eternal life, and a life of perfect obedience to offer to God. Someday, when our faith becomes sight, when we see Jesus, we will be like Him. But not before.

The Christian religion is a religion of faith. The difference between it and all other religions on the earth is that the others are religions of legalism, of tangibly earning or acquiring the attributes of deity right here and now.

I have a deep concern that this conversation may not be good for me to continue to participate in.

As you wish, although it saddens me.

I think that all parties have it in their mind their opinions and do not come to the discussion to learn but to convince others of their opinions.

I am not trying to convince. I have to tell. I HAVE to tell. When a person understands the Gospel, that Jesus has indeed paid it all, that there is absolutely nothing positive that I can add to the already finished and perfected work in his/her behalf, they must tell others. And so I keep on in my bumbling way trying to convey the wonder of God's infinite grace toward undeserving sinners, hoping God will use my totally inadequate words to show others who are not totally convinced of their acceptanc by God in Jesus Christ that their salvation has been attained. God has saved us. All He asks us to do is to believe, which, I am finding, is not at all a simple to do. In fact, without the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Gospel is nonsense and foolishness. Yet, "faith comes of hearing," and we are commanded to tell. So I try to do my best.

And I find myself included in this "dig in my heels mode". I do not like it when I find myself grabbing my Bible to proove my point.

Why? Of course everything must be grounded in Scripture! When one understands the Gospel, the Bible becomes a whole new book. I find things in there almost daily that hit me between the eyes, reinforcing and confirming for me the all-encompassing, all-consuming glory of the Gospel.

May God continue to bless us all with a daily reminder of our dependence upon the unfailable grace of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, Who alone is worthy of majesty and glory and praise.

Patti

* How much "healthier" self-esteem can we have than to know that the Eternal Word of God, Creator of the universe, stooped to so low as to take upon Himself the form of lowly humans, to do what we sinful humans could never do: To perfectly fulfil the law, to live a life in perfect accord with every standard of the Almighty Father, and to lay down His life for the forgiveness of our sin?
Valm
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 10:27 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Patti, I will ponder on what you say. I certainly am more close to understanding you. Our thoughts are much closer than you think. And I would hope that our disagreements will not hinder our love and continued prayers for one another. Valerie
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 11:46 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Patti,

I agree with everything in your post
immediately above except the following:

1. ^^All we can do is trust that His righteous-
ness is sufficient for us and covers us
completely.^^

Not all. Our trust response must also include:
"Agape one another as I [Christ] have agape'd
you."

2. ^^All He asks us to do is to believe, which, I
am finding, is not at all a simple to do.^^

This is so as long as our belief is a "heart
belief," rather than Just a "head belief" (James
2).

God bless you always,

MC
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1. ^^All we can do is trust that His righteous-
ness is sufficient for us and covers us
completely.^^

Max:
Not all. Our trust response must also include:
, "Agape one another as I [Christ] have agape'd
you."


Point one:
You (as is everyone else) are incapable of loving others as Christ loved you.
Point two:
Salvation cannot come of law; ANY law. This is law; it is a new commandment. Commandment = law.
Point three:
Anyone who thinks he is keeping the law is not only fooling himself ("is a liar and the truth is not in him"), he is also belittling the law (making it small enough for sinful humans to "keep" it) and cheapening the saving work of our Lord Jesus Christ in fulfilling the law on our behalf.

2. ^^All He asks us to do is to believe, which, I
am finding, is not at all a simple to do.^^

This is so as long as our belief is a "heart
belief," rather than Just a "head belief" (James
2).


Point one:
There is no such dichotomy of saving faith.
Point two:
James is law. There is no Gospel (grace)in James (or in some other books, such as Proverbs). There is no deep theology; there is no discourse on salvation. (This is why Luther referred to it as a "strawy little book.")

Salvation never comes of law. Salvation only comes of the divine mercy of God (grace) in saving undeserving humanity for the sake of the vicarious life and death of Jesus Christ.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 12:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patti,

^^You (as is everyone else) are incapable of
loving others as Christ loved you. ^^

True, but Christ in me is.

^^There is no such dichotomy of saving faith.^^

Why kick against James?

^^James is law. There is no Gospel (grace)in
James.^^

To the contrary, James is all about faith. There
is not so much as one shred of "works
righteousness" in this Scripture.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^Salvation cannot come of law; ANY law. This
is law; it is a new commandment. Command-
ment = law.^^

Salvation cannot come of any law, but Christ's
Royal Law of Love expresses itself in our lives
via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Patti,

^^Anyone who thinks he is keeping the law is
not only fooling himself ("is a liar and the truth
is not in him"), he is also belittling the law
(making it small enough for sinful humans to
"keep" it) and cheapening the saving work of
our Lord Jesus Christ in fulfilling the law on
our behalf.^^

* Anyone who thinks s/he is NOT keeping the
law of love within has no part with Christ.

* The Holy Spirit within does not belittle the
law of love written on our hearts, but on the
contrary does MAGNIFY the law in our lives.

* In no way does living a life transformed by
the Holy Spirit cheapen "the saving work of our
Lord Jesus Christ in fulfilling the law on our
behalf." On the contrary, such a life
WITNESSES to it.

Blessings,

Max of the Cross
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"For in Him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power" Colossians 2: 9,10

"And it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell" Colossians 1:19

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets"

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds:"

"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power,when had had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on High. Hebrews 1:1-3


Jesus is in Heaven at the right hand of God today.
There are other scriptures in the Bible which state the same thing, that Jesus is at the right hand of God in Heaven.

The work of the Holy Spirit is to:

"And I will pray the the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

"Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him, but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you."

"I will not leave you comfortless; I wil come to you."
John 14: 16-18

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.John 14:26

"But when the Comforter is come, who I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the father, he shall testify of me." John 15:26


"For it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him."

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." I Corinthians 2: 9,10

"In whom after ye also trusted, after that ye heard word of truth the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"

"Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." Ephesians 1:13

"For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake."

"For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ:" I Corinthians 4: 5,6

The Holy Spirit accompanies the preaching of the gospel.

This is the gospel messsage to be delivered to all the world:

"To wit that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the message of reconciliation"

"Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us; we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God."

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. II Corinthians 5: 19-21

God has chosen "And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

"That no flesh should glory in His presence,"

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unnto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

"That according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord"I Corinthians 1: 28-31
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To all:

^^No matter how one tries to say that pointing
to the "Christ inside" is being Christ-centered,
the fact remains that the person who so
preaches is directing the focus to his own
personal "righteousness."^^

By this reasoning, then, the Apostle Paul must
be classified as one whose preaching ^^is
directing the focus to his own personal
"righteousness."^^

For Paul in NIVÝColossians 1:27 says,ÝîTo
them God has chosen to make known among
the Gentiles the glorious riches of this
mystery, which is CHRIST IN YOU, the hope of
glory.î This is the Colossiansí TESTIMONY to
other Gentiles!

One simply cannot, on the basis of oneís own
personal experience with other
Christ-claimers, just so flatly contradict
Scripture and teach it over this website. It is
Scripture alone that decides what is ěof faithî
and what isnít, not personal witness,
testimony or experience. Therefore, hear Paul
again:

NIV Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled
not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if THE
SPIRIT OF GOD LIVES IN YOU. And if anyone
does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not
belong to Christ.
10 But if CHRIST IS IN YOU, your body is dead
because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because
of righteousness.
11 And if THE SPIRIT of him who raised Jesus
from the dead IS LIVING IN YOU, he who
raised Christ from the dead will also give life
to your mortal bodies through HIS SPIRIT, who
LIVES IN YOU.
12 Therefore, brothers, we have an
obligation--but it is not to the sinful nature, to
live according to it.
13 For if you live according to the sinful nature,
you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death
the misdeeds of the body, you will live,
14 because those who are led by the Spirit of
God are sons of God.

Max of the Cross
Max
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^Jesus is in Heaven at the right hand of God
today^^ and also in our hearts by His Holy
Spirit.
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I repeat:
^^James is law. There is no Gospel (grace) in
James.
^^

To the contrary, James is all about faith. There
is not so much as one shred of "works
righteousness" in this Scripture.


Then show us the proof. Show us the great passages of the Gospel of the imputation of the righteousness of Christ. Show the statements of God's salvation of unworthy humans for the sake of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ.

James is all about what the believer does (works) and nothing about what Jesus Christ has done for undeserving sinners who trust in Him.
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 3:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


Max,
Can you show me a single biblical text that specifically speaks of Jesus living in our hearts?

I can only think of one that even refers to Christ indwelling us.

We must be careful not to confound the work of Jesus Christ with the work of the Holy Spirit as our friends the SDAs and the Catholics do. Jesus' work is finished, complete, perfected forever, and extrinsic to humanity. He sits, a position of rest and finality, at the right hand of the Father. This is where the SDAs miss the boat so badly regarding the investigative judgment. They claim that Christ's work is not finished. As do those who think that the indwelling work of Christ is part of salvation.

The work of the Holy Spirit, on the contrary, is ongoing, unfinished, intrinsic to sinful human flesh.

We are saved by the finished work of Jesus Christ alone. The Gospel is not about what happens in us (the work of the Holy Spirit), it is about Christ's work, what He has done. It is about our full and complete salvation by the imputation of the righteousness of Jesus Christ and forgiveness of sin for the sake of His shed blood.

And just a footnote about the Holy Spirit. Whenever a NT believer was described as being 'filled with the Spirit,' he inevitably began to testify of Jesus. "The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy." Jesus told His disciples that when the Holy Spirit should fall on the earth, that He would testify of Jesus. Even the gifts of the Spirit are about the Gospel, telling others of Jesus--not about changed lives.

The Gospel is as good as it gets.
The holiest deed we can perform on this earth is to tell others of the saving work of Jesus Christ for all who will believe.

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