| Author | Message | ||
| Cindy |
Kelly, I would agree with Max and Patti. I have friends who have close relationships with Christ while in the Adventist church. I would never want to imply that they do not know Jesus... I just know for MYSELF it became harder and harder to believe these doctrines, much less try and get new friends to believe them and join the church. I would emphasize this: of FIRST IMPORTANCE is BELIEVING in CHRIST'S FINISHED WORK on your behalf! Nothing else will be of any real value... even if you manage to sweep out many of the questionable doctrines from the "house" of your mind... The emptiness must be filled with the fullness of JESUS. He alone is said to have "become for us WISDOM FROM GOD--that is, OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS, HOLINESS, AND REDEMPTION. (1 Corinthians 1:30) He will never leave you! Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Max |
Kelly, I think it's important beyond measure to understand that it is the Holy Spirit who is troubling you, giving you questions. Ellen G. White said that on the subject of the Holy Spirit "silence is golden." Now, why would she say that if she wasn't trying to silence His work within the elect. Such troubling is, in fact, proof that you ARE among the elect. Leaving or not leaving the SDA church is not the rub here. That is between you and God. All we can do is to witness to the redeeming power of Christ's alien, finished, historical work for us on the cross. It is the Holy Spirit -- and not the FAF forum or your friend who left the SDA church -- who is agitating your waters. Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Kelly, You addressed much in your post to me. Let me answer the issues by multiple posts. ^^I get the idea that you are suspicious of my motives for posting here. I can assure you that I am not here to argue or cause any form of dissension, I simple want answers from a different perspective than the Adventist answers and I don't have any non-SDA friends to ask.^^ I believe you now. I was a little suspicious at first, but only because we've had people come here impersonating others and incincerely raising issues not their own. It never hurts to clarify. Hope you weren't offended. You don't seem to be. Back soon. Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Kelly, ^^I don't understand how an Adventist walks away from the Sabbath. I know how Adventist prove the Sabbath, but I don't follow how my childhood friend sees that the Sabbath isn't an issue anymore.^^ For Adventist Sabbath-keepers I've found that Romans 14 is the best place to start. I'll quote pieces from it relevant to "all the special days of the Old Testament ceremonial law" (NIV text note to Romans 14:5), including the seventh-day Sabbath. ^^Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters..... Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ^^One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord.... For none of us lives to himself alone. If we live we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord. ^^For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. You, then, why do you judge your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat. It is written: ^^"As surely as I live, says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'" ^^So then, each of us will give an account of himself to God. ^^Therefore let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brother's way. ... ^^So whatever you believe about these things [keeping Sabbath holy or Sunday holy, or all seven days of the week alike] keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves [in your case, the Sabbath day holiness]. But the man who has doubts is condemned if he eats [or keeps Sunday or Saturday or "all days alike"], because his eating [or keeping] is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.^^ So God approves of Sabbath-keeping, provided you have no doubts about it and you keep the matter between yourself and God. He also approves of Sunday-keeping, as long as you have no doubts about that. Likewise, He approves of "keeping all days alike," provided your doing so comes from your personal faith. And so, Kelly, our Adventist friends are not wrong in keeping the Sabbath day holy. Where they go wrong is trying to tell other Christians that Sabbath-keeping is the seal of God and Sunday-keeping is the mark of the beast. THAT is wrong and is a violation of Romans 14. Furthermore, Romans 14 is also an answer as to ^^how my childhood friend sees that the Sabbath isn't an issue anymore.^^ For to those who are in Christ it really isn't an issue anymore. Paul never preached the Sabbath to anybody. There is no "keep the Sabbath" command- ment anywhere in the New Testament. All of John's statements about keeping the commandments of God (in his gospel, his epistles, and Revelation) have to do only with Christ's commandments and nothing to do with those of Moses. And yet the New Testament lets Christians keep the Sabbath day holy! So let's praise God and get on with the business of agape-ing and not judging one another "on disputable matters." Blessings to you, Kelly, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Kelly, ^^The members of the remnant church should have the BEST relationships with Christ, not just the most restrictive relationships.^^ The Seventh-day Adventist church isn't the remnant church. There is not one shred of text evidence anywhere in Scripture to prove that it is. For example, one key link in the chain our friends the Adventists use to prove SDA remnancy is Revelation 13:11-12 (NIV): ^^Then I saw another beast, coming up out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the firs beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.^^ They say this beast represents the United States. And the reason they give is that it came up out of the earth. Meaning an unpopulated region. Trouble is, America the New World was NOT unpopulated. It was populated from sea to shining sea with Native American Indians. As though they weren't people. As though they were animals like the buffalo bison or the deer and the antelope. This is a racist argument based on the racist attitudes of the first SDAs who forged the chain of prooftexts. It CANNOT, then, be of God or of divine inspiration. Therefore, if this key link in the chain is broken, the whole chain is broken and the tug can't tow the oceanliner. If they have failed to prove that this "earth beast" is the United States, then they have also failed to prove that the first beast, the "sea beast," was Europe. Thus the historical grounding regarding persecutions, etc., is washed away and lost. And our friends the Adventists are NOT shown in the Bible to be the remnant. To the contrary, the remnant are chosen by GRACE, not by observing who keeps the Ten Commandments. Romans 11:5-6 NIV: ìAt the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.î It would be the Ten Commandments instead. But we Christians are not under law, but under grace. Blessings to you, Max of the Cross | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Kelly! I'm so glad you've joined the forum! I certainly understand your confusion. The single thing that began to open my eyes to the truth of Jesus was my beginning to read the Bible, asking God to send the Holy Spirit to help me understand what it really said. I had never really enjoyed reading the Bible. It seemed confusing and dry, and I had to force myself to read it. But when I began to read it, asking for God's help, little by little it began to make sense. I still had major questions, but more and more things began to fall into place, and I began to see more and more consistency in it. I also focused, at first, on reading the New Testament--the portion of the Bible I had the least experience with! About three years after beginning to study on my own, my husband and I began to study with our Christian neighbors--not for the purpose of converting anyone, just for the experience of studying the Bible! That experience was invaluable because we heard their comments about the Bible, some of which we agreed with and some of which we didn't. The best thing tbey did for us was to ask us where in the Bible we could find our scriptural interpretations. We began to see how much of our basic understanding really had come from EGW, not the Bible. When I began to understand what the Bible really taught, when I began to see that the keeping of a Sabbath day was not taught in the New Testament, when I began to see how clearly the New Testament said the law was a shadow of Jesus and the reality was found in him, when I began to see that Jesus has 100% completed my salvation by dying for me, when I clearly read that the Bible says the Holy Spirit--not the Sabbath--is God's seal on us, when I saw clearly that the Bible taught that the final conflict would not be over a day but over loyalty to a person--Jesus Christ--I realized that I had been taught "another gospel". I realized that the Bible simply did not teach that Adventism was the remnant church. In fact, nothing resembling Adventism is taught in the Bible. Adventism had kept me from knowing the truth about Jesus and about my salvation. The truth is that my salvation was complete at the cross. Nothing happened in 1844--William Miller's figuring was full of assumptions and faulty dates. He himself later renounced his own date setting. Jesus came when God decided it was time, and our salvation was complete at Calvary. When I was able to accept Jesus alone without any tagged-on requirements such as proving my loyalty by observing a day or not eating certain foods, I realized that my salvation was absolutely secure. I cannot begin to tell you how amazing it was to experience the love of Jesus fully and freely for the first time! Truly, my life will never be the same again. There are many things I could say to explain the long process I experienced of coming to grips with what I'd been taught about Adventism, Sabbath, the Holy Spirit, etc. I would be happy to say more as time goes on. But, Kelly, please know that God loves you very much, and he is leading you to ask the questions and to seek the answers that will bring you into an intimate relationship with him. It is an amazing experience to actually feel love for Jesus, not just gratitude for a church and a system of belief. The love of Jesus and my love for Jesus is personal and life-changing. My love for the church was sincere and comfortable, but it did not give me peace or answer my questions. The church did not give me true fellowship or friendship. The church did not show me Jesus, although I committed myself to what I understood him to be. The Bible alone showed me Jesus, and the Holy Spirit lifted the veil from my heart so I could read and experience the truth. The truth about reality--the truth about Jesus--sets us free, Kelly, and God is leading you to understand the marvelous truth about his deep and eternal love for you. Nothing in all creation equals the security and peace that comes when the Holy Spirit gives you a new birth and a new heart. Nothing in the world can equal the deep thankfulness of knowing you are absolutely saved, safe in the heart of Jesus forever. I'm praying for you, Kelly. In His love, Colleen | ||
| Maryann |
Hi All, I have an experience to share with you. Since my computer's were both down for a couple weeks, I was just driven with desire to write on the Forum and other projects. It was a starving feeling. Now my 'puter's are up and running and as I mentioned a couple nights ago, I just can't think of anything to say! Normally, I have to exercise some degree of self control to keep from spending to much time on the Forum and neglecting my responsibilities. I just sit and read the Forum threads and I am dead, empty and lifeless!;-(( Even now, what I am writing is a strain as have the previous post's in the last day or so. My very dear friend if 30+ years came down to visit me for a week. We just had a wonderful time singing and playing the accordian like the old days. We talked of yesteryear and some of the special times we had with some of the other young people so many years ago. We worked on some projects like planting a 1000 Christmas tree seedlings and so on. We shared our faith in Jesus too. For me it was a simple Gospel message of Christ's finished work on the cross for all those that believe in him and the sealing of us by the Holy Spirit. Peace and assurance of salvation and the comfort of the Comforter and the joy in the work of the Holy Spirit in my life. At every turn and in every imaginable way, my friend exposed the belief system I too was raised in. All this was done in kindness and a non-arguementive way. No matter what I stated as my belief with Scripture to base it on, he could pull out any number of verses to tear it down! Every belief I hold dear was, only by the grace of God, kept in my feeble sight. Last night when my friend and I were at some Christian friend's house, I learned some things about the belief system I was raised in that I didn't know existed. (Or God graciously allowed me to forget). My friend was asked how he came to his belief system and what it was. I just can not describe the despair I feel over his declared belief. The most un-believable was that, "It is finished" didn't mean, "It is finished!" When specifically asked if Christ's work at the cross was finished at the cross he said, "Not really" and then "No." I guess that I am absolutely and totally drained at the strain of realizing what I came from and that many of my friends are still involved in this belief system. I must say, my friend is not a mainstream SDA. I know that as a kid, we were not welcome in an SDA Church, so that indicates there was a difference, though I'm not really sure what it is. I only know that in observing my friend, I did NOT see "freedom in Christ." My friend is NOT one of those that many of us have been in contact with that were one thing in public and another at home of in the closet. Judging my friend is not what I'm doing here. I would trust him with my life or my kid's lives. He is a simple and wonderful person. But I just could not help but see the bondage he was in with shackles and chains constricting his every move and thought. Seeing him presented with the gospel and not seeing the recognition in him that there was a fully God Savior that finished forever, his salvation, just for him accepting and believing it, is just.....?! I'm speechless! I'm sorry if I have rambled and rattled on. So many of you understand what I have just described and I understand y'all much better now;-)) As Kelly said: "I have 'worn the mask' for 30+ years that says I have a relationship, but the reality is: my relationship with Christ can not be described like my friend who has left Adventism. How can this happen?" Kelly....I don't know exactly how or what your relationship is with Christ is. I can tell you though, that my friend demonstrated beyond doubt that he has a personal bondageship with Christ rather than a relationship resulting from fear rather than love. Thank you so much for coming to this site. Just reading the dialogue above has been a blessing to me. Upward and onward.....Maryann | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, I guess I need to spend some time hugging the "splinterless" palm tree huh? | ||
| Larimobley |
Dear Kelly, I'm glad you've felt safe enough to share some of your conversations with your friend on our forum. You'll find that most of us here have struggled with the same questions about Adventism as you. I was also raised 4th generation Adventist, loved the church, read Ellen White more than my Bible (easier to understand did you say??--I felt so too), and was educated entirely in SDA schools. I always believed I was in the "remnant church" and felt so glad that I was born into it and had the "truth." I knew I was saved by my faith in Jesus, but I also "knew" that this faith was only true faith if it manifested itself through the doctrines the church taught, i.e. Sabbath-keeping, not eating certain foods, etc. You know the list! And unfortunately as hard as I tried I could never measure up. I never kept the Sabbath perfectly, for example, or at least not as perfectly as I thought I should be keeping it. I didn't enjoy reading my Bible like I thought I should, but I went through the motions anyway. To make a very long story short, let's just say that I can relate to how much you feel connected to Adventism and believe in it as the "remnant church." I won't go through all the details, but after years of trying to be what I thought I should be as an Adventist, I left the church and my relationship with God behind for over 10 years. I never thought to attend another church because I truly believed that the SDA church was the "remnant" and had more of the correct Biblical teaching than any other church. But I just couldn't measure up and didn't believe in any of it for many years. This post would be entirely too long if I explained quite how it happened, but my husband and I both became Christians about a year and a half ago and began attending a non-denominational Christian church. And then I had to start examining my former SDA beliefs--i.e. the Sabbath, Ellen White, state of the dead, etc. I can truly say that I was only able to put Adventism behind me AFTER I had a complete understanding of the gospel and salvation by grace, through faith alone in Jesus. It's got nothing to do with my works, my Sabbath-keeping, or anything else that I could possibly do. It's all about Jesus and what he did for me. I started by reading Galatians--over, and over, and over again. I also read "Grace Awakening" by Chuck Swindoll and "What's So Amazing About Grace" by Philip Yancey. I HIGHLY recommend these books. My best advise to you is to read as much about salvation and the gospel as you can. Don't worry about the SDA church, the Sabbath, or any of the other doctrines. Just pray that God will guide you to understand salvation and trust that He will do just that. I no longer believe that the SDA church is the "remnant," or that Ellen White was a prophet, but this all came about only after I truly understood the grace that Jesus offers when we have faith in him. The peace your friend has told you about is REAL. And it's a supernatural thing--from the Holy Spirit. I know that in and of myself I would never have the peace that I experience now, something that I NEVER experienced as an Adventist. And the Bible is a whole new book. I love reading it and studying it. As someone who refused to pray for 11 years, and still has trouble praying in any kind of public setting, I can truly say that I will be praying for you and God's leading in your life. You can feel free to e-mail me if you like (lemobley@hotmail.com) and I will answer any questions as honestly as I can. In His grace, Lari Mobley | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, Deep south for me too, Tampa. Then the Wildwood, GA and Collegedale, TN area. Lot's in between and now am in the Loma Linda, CA area. And early 40's, you young pup, you;-)))))) :)):))....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Lari, That was a very moving testimony. It must have taken something out of you to type it in and post it off. MC | ||
| Kelly |
To Everyone: I'm a little overwhelmed with your responses, I've briefly read them but will need to read them all again. The text in Romans 11 that Max mentioned got my attention briefly, the one about the remnant chosen by grace. Does this conflict to what I've been taught that the remnant keep the commandments of God? isn't there a text in Rev. that says that. How does that fit with this text Romans 11:5,6? Doesn't that just mean that after we are believe that the grace of God gives us the divine ability to keep his commandments perfectly? And that through his grace we will fulfill the command to keep the 10 commandments. From what I've been taught the text that you have used to say the SDA church isn't really the remnant church, actually, reinforces the fact that it is. Can you explain if/how these texts differ? Lari, the description of you previous lifestyle inside the SDA church fits me pretty much to a 'T'. There is one thing I need to clarify. I did not mean to imply that the people that I know in the church do not know Christ. I believe that they do believe in Christ. I believe in Christ. It's just that there is no depth to the relationship. It's very superficial. It's almost like being an acquaintance and not a "real" friend. Does that make sense? Is that salvation? Can you only be "acquainted" with Christ and still be saved? Someone mentioned the work of salvation not being completely finished with Christ. This is what I have grown up being taught. That you must have the evidence of this "work" in you and that you must produce certain things in order for that to be evident. One of them being the observance of the Sabbath and continuing on to the point that you will give up meat entirely when this work in you is complete. I don't know if there is scripture on this point or if it only comes from the writings of Ellen White. There is a vague line with me concerning these two things. Back to what I meant about "leaving the church and having a real relationship with Christ". I know that this person that left the church already believed in Christ before she left. Its just that it wasn't until after she left that she developed this real "deep" relationship with Christ. She has told me that she has spent 4 and 5 hours a night, not going to bed until 2 am sometimes just reading the Bible. I can't fathom that. I'd fall asleep after the first 15 minutes. She's finding something in there that I don't find!!! I'm going to take whomevers advice it was to start with the gospel of John and mark all the places that say Believe and you will be saved. Oh, the text in Rev. 13 about the beast rising up out of the water, the one that Adventist teach is proof of the USA being this beast. What does it mean, if it doesn't mean that? This subject has always been one that frightened me, I can remember attending evangelistic meetings as a child and being absolutely terrified of the God that would put his children through this terrifying end. And it was SO complicated that I couldn't understand the explanations of these scriptures, so I just gave up. I'm going to read the book of John, I'll get back with you guys after that. Kelly | ||
| Cindy |
Dear Lari, Good Morning...:-)) Your words were wonderful to wake up to this morning! I so agree with you that our focus must first and always be to REST in the gospel of God's amazing gift at the Cross of Christ!! Only then can we even have the motivation, or confidence, or even joy to live as fully accepted children of God... secure in our standing IN GRACE! I've loved those books you mentioned also... Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, You have really alot to think about!!! My heart strings pull when I hear you talk (in anticipatory grief) about the loss you will experience if your search compells you to leave Adventism behind. We all understand this so well. That is why a forum such as this exists. If you are compelled to leave Adventism behind, reach out for the support you need. If you are compelled to stay, please fellowship with us any way. There are nor requirements here. You live in the NW. I live in the Seattle area. I am one of those 40 something people with two kids and the engineer husband. We live a great life here in the NW and are sailboat people. Occassionally ski people much to my body's distress the last couple of days. Did you read Galations 4? I identify so much with Pauls analogy. Born of the FREE woman!!!We have all given you so much to read. I do not know if anyone mentioned D Ratzlaff's books THE CULTIC DOCTRINE OF THE SDAS and SABBATH IN CRISIS. They are good ones. Info to order them is under the link section of this site. Again also go to NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS. I have a hunch you will identify with it and be able to understand what has happened to your friend. Have you noticed that she is still able to LOVE YOU but many of the members of the SDA congregation are not able to do the same for her? What might that tell you? Keep posting and if we are neighbors or near neighbors, I would be happy to meet you face to face. Valerie | ||
| Max |
Morning Kelly, ^^Oh, the text in Rev. 13 about the beast rising up out of the water, the one that Adventist teach is proof of the USA being this beast. What does it mean, if it doesn't mean that? This subject has always been one that frightened me, I can remember attending evangelistic meetings as a child and being absolutely terrified of the God that would put his children through this terrifying end. And it was SO complicated that I couldn't understand the explanations of these scriptures, so I just gave up.^^ I think thatís what Our Friends The Adventists (OFTA) wanted you to do -- give up. Because the smartest and most educated among them are the biblical studies profs. And they know these complicated evangelistic explanations are tangled webs. They know they are devoid of scriptural truth. And they know they were tangled together 150 years ago by wild-eyed OFTA fanatics. They just canít say so. Except to each other. Behind closed doors. Why not? For the answer to that let me quote to you a passage about whatís been going on in OFTA scholarly circles from Bull and Lockhartís SEEKING A SANCTUARY: SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS AND THE AMERICAN DREAM (New York: Harper & Row, 1989), p.239: ^^The churchís academics went through a difficult time following Glacier View [the ìburning at the stakeî of OFTA Bible scholar Dr. Des Ford who dared to ìspill the beansî about the OFTA ëinvestigative judgmentî doctrine]. They [OFTA profs] made an attempt to reassert the principle of academic freedom in the Atlanta Affirmation, a seven-point charter signed by seventeen college professors in 1981. They also met with denominational leaders in several ìconsultationî meetings in 1980-81 that were designed to rebuild the bridges between them. But the period was one in which Adventist scholars were in retreat. The professors realized this better than anyone and reportedly gathered on Adventist campuses to sing bitter parodies of well-known hymns against the church president, Neal Wilson. In one hymn, ìRust and Obeyî (a parody of ìTrust and Obeyî) they sang: When we work for the church Weíll be left in the lurch If we choose Wilsonís creed not to sign. While we do Wilsonís will, work abides with us still And with all who will rust and obey. Rust and obey, for thereís no other way To avoid unemployment than to rust and obey.^^ And that, my friend Kelly, is the reason why the people who know OFTA teachings the best -- who know that the ìdistinctive doctrinesî are pure blarney, if not baloney -- are afraid to tell you the truth. For if they did they would lose their jobs. Their paychecks. Their mortgages. Ever try crisis career switching to avoid homelessness? As one of them said recently, ìAdventist theology is economically driven.î Or, as Bull and Lockhart put it, ìAdventist teachers ... are expected to adhere to the churchís beliefs as defined by their employersî (SEEKING, p.239). And so the fact that you realized that the ìdistinctivesî you were taught in OFTA evangelistic meetings were too ìcomplicatedî to be understood is a sign of INTELLIGENCE and not stupidity. As some intelligent observer once said, ìOh, what a ëtangled webí we weave when first we practice to deceive.î ^^Oh, the text in Rev. 13 about the beast rising up out of the water, the one that Adventist teach is proof of the USA being this beast. What does it mean, if it doesn't mean that?^^ Letís look at the text again: ìThen I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast [the beast out of the sea, Rev. 13:1-8] on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healedî (NIV Revelation 13:11-12). * The NIV text note to ìanother beast, coming out of the earthî says: ìAccording to some, he symbolizes religious power in the service of secular authorities. According to others, he is the personal false prophet (see 16:13; 19:20; 20:10)." * The NIV text note to ìtwo horns like a lambî says this: ìHe attempts to appear gentle and harmless.î * The NIV text note to ìspoke like a dragonî says this: ìSee Jesusí warning in Mt 7:15 about ravenous wolves who come in sheepís clothing.î * The NIV text note to ìexercised all the authority of the first beastî says this: ìThe trinity of evil is now complete. The beast from the earth is under the authority of the beast from the sea. The latter is subject to the dragon. Satan, secular power and religious compromise (or Satan, the antichrist and the false prophet) join against the cause of God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit.î The thing to remember, Kelly, is that the Apostle Johnís book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is not OFTA's personal property. ìThe beastî doesnít automatically = ìthe papacyî! Any more than it automatically = ìthe GC.î The book is highly symbolic. Meaning itís more like a shoe: ìIf the shoe fits, wear it.î In other words, whoever BEHAVES like the beast IS the beast. If Johnís description of beastly behavior fits the pope, then the pope is the beast. If it fits the GC president, then he is the beast. Or you could think of the images in Revelation like an algebraic equation. For instance, F = B. F stands for Fruits. B stands for Beast. Scripture says, ìBy their fruits shall ye know them.î So weíre on solid ground here. Now, letís plug in an example: NIV Revelation 13:5 says, ìThe beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies....î Verse 6 says, ìHe opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name....î Verse 7 says, ìHe was given power to make war against the saints....î All right now, according to Christís ìby their fruitsî principle, whoever ìutters proud words and blasphemiesî is acting like the beast, right? And whoever ìopens his mouth to blaspheme God and to slander his nameî is bearing the fruits of the beast. And whoever ìmakes war against the saintsî is behaving like the beast. Therefore, whoever fits Johnís description of the beast IS the beast. Remember the old saying, ìIf it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, has feathers like a duck, swims like a duck, lays eggs like a duck, ..., etc., it IS a duck. Likewise with the beasts of Revelation 13. Do you see how this approach turns the Revelation of Jesus Christ into a book more in keeping with true spiritual realities? God bless always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, I just spent a few minutes surfing and went to the "unofficial" ellen white site. www.ellenwhite.org. They have some interesting stuff there. I just copied a 5 page article on the day of attonement which is not 1844. The have a book on line about the Sabbath and National sunday law that you will find interesting. Three texts which imply that the Holy Spirit is the SEAL of GOD; 2 Cor 1:21 &22: Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come. Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a SEAL, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possission to the praise of his glory. Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. In the Episcopal tradition when one is baptised the priest will then annoint their forehead with oil and say: Kelly, you are sealed by the Holy Spirit in Baptism and marked as Christ's own forever. Amen. Kelly, I use your name because you probably were baptised but never given those beautiful words of assurance. They are rightfully yours. I hope they bring you peace. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Maryann, I have scanned Ezekial and my gut and impulsive impression was, WOW I am sure glad I can read this in the light of the NEW COVENANT. What is that text I think in Galations, where Paul states why would we give the LAW (of the OLD COVENANT) to others when it was impossible to do ourselves? I will have to go searching for that one too. I will email you tomorrow with my impressions. I best get back to this house and my sick son :( Valerie | ||
| Kelly |
I have been reading the book of John and I "accidentally" have become involved with a non-Adventist Bible study. I've never done that before, I've never even known when other churches had studies. Yesterday, I ran into the wife of someone that works with my husband and she mentioned she was on her way to a Bible study that she was just starting about David and she asked me if I would like to go with her. I went. I can hardly believe it myself. I think I already told you that I don't really know anyone that isn't Adventist, we are just acquaintances. At the time it seemed like the thing to do when she asked me. (But after I got there I felt like a traitor.) I've never been aside a church that wasn't SDA! It was just a preliminary meeting to purchase the study guide, they watched a video to begin the study. The ladies that were there seemed to really love God, they wanted to be there, it wasn't just something they were doing because it was the right thing to do. I bought a book, I'm going to go to the study. The woman on the video,Beth Moore, I'd never heard of her before yesterday, talked about Israel having no king at the end of the book of Judges and then how they wanted to have a king and so even though that wasn't God's plan for them, God gave them their desire for an earthly king. She elaborated someone on King Saul and his negativity to God's direction. I'm leading up to a question I want to ask: In 1 Sam. 12:22-25 she implied that this was talking about "eternal security". I took her to mean that this was something like once saved, always saved. Of course, you know what my Adventist background taught me about that! BUT, when I was reading the book of John, I had gotten as far as chapter 10. In verse 28, it says, that "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish; no onc can snatch them out of my hand. My Father who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand" The lady on this video gave me the impression that Saul would be saved (she didn't say that, but it seemed implied) I was thinking over the life of King Saul, one of the things I remember is David singing to him and the evil spirit would leave Saul and the Spirit of God would be upon him. I was a little off on my recollection, I found something that I never saw before in that story. 1 Sam. 16:14 says "the Spirit of the Lord had departed from Saul" vs. 23 says "Whenever the spirit from God came upon Saul, David would take up his harp...and the evil spirit would leave him." Am I understanding this correctly that the "evil" spirit came FROM God. It wasn't an evil spirit from Satan? I looked at the meaning of the word evil and it said injurious. Does this mean that Saul was just being punished by God because he hadn't obeyed? I had always thought that Saul was lost since he rejected God, but that verse in John 10:28,29 says that we can't be snatched out of God's hand. It appears that Saul was never OUT of God's hand. Beth Moore gave this analogy of "always being Gods". A child that she knew was on a basketball team and the entire season had never made a score. No matter how she attempted it the ball would just not go through the hoop, the child was incredibly frustrated. In the last game, this child had the perfect shot and she finally scored. But it was in the wrong basket!!! She had scored on the oppositions goal!! Beth Moore said that this was what we did as the children of God. Just like the little girl who scored for the other team, we score on the enemies goal, we gain points for the enemy. BUT, the little girl had not changed teams in the middle of the game, she had simply "messed up" and she was still on God's team even though she had scored for the enemy. All this fit together so neatly, if I hadn't of read John 10 and that verse had not gotten my attention AND if she hadn't given that particular analogy to reinforce scripture. I think I would have rejected it. Does this really mean what I think it means? Is Saul saved? Because he certainly didn't do anything at all to show it. I've always heard and believed that without the "fruits" of salvation you weren't really saved. Kelly | ||
| Max |
Dear Kelly, So glad you're hanging in here with us. You seem like such a delightful person, rather innocent and child-like in a wonderful sense. Is Saul saved? He was an Israelite! Is Hitler saved? He was a Christian! There is a mystery about God: Although in him there is no darkness at all, he is clothed in thick darkness. Job number one for every believer is to submit to the authority of God and let him take control. This is all about relationship. The shepherd is lord of the sheep, not the other way around. Sin is the sheep trying to herd the shepherd. Accepting Christ as our Good Shepherd means submission. Sin is our refusal to submit to God. Sin is our refusal to repent and obey in agape-response to his agape- initiative. Or, as in the shepherd-sheep parable, sin is headstrong straying from the flock. There is nothing we can do to become a member of the flock (have salvation). That is accomplished -- as Patti so rightly says -- once for all time and all people on the cross. But once we are a member of the Good Shepherd's flock we have an obligation (Romans 8) not to stray. If we do stray, does our straying mean we've lost our salvation? No. It is impossible to lose salvation. The point is again: trusting obedience to the Good Shepherd. For he has known from before the foundations of the earth were laid who is going to stray and who isn't. And he goes and retrieves his lost sheep. Furthermore, he has other sheep of which we know nothing. And, in my opinion at least, it's not up to us to speculate whether or not he can save these other sheep. We have mistaken assumptions about what Jesus means when he says there is only one flock. There is, but the ultimate salvation of these "other sheep not of this sheep pen" is not our decision to make, since we were not around before the foundations of the earth were laid. Let God be God! For being God, the Good Shepherd knows his own sheep all over the world, whether they are members of "this flock" or not. We don't know whether Saul or Hitler is saved or not. As the Good Shepherd's elect sheep our duty is to follow him. I'll deal with your issue over "an evil spirit from the Lord" coming upon Saul when I have more time. It has to do with the sovereignty of God. The basketball game parable seems somewhat inept, since it assumes that God is merely owner of one team, rather than of both! More later. God bless, Max of the Cross | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, What an awesome analogy of the little girl making the basket for the wrong team, yet she remained on the her own team! Just great!;-)) I'm still in the "valley" of learning and there are things I have never thought of or even heard of that are in the Bible. Like Ezekiel!!!! Anyway, I'd like to share a still very vivid 35 year old memory. I was about 8 and my Mom was selling Swipe (you might remember, "one wipe with swipe takes the rubbin' out of scrubbin'") She met this lady that was a professed Christian and they talked about Christ etc. Of course, my Mom told her we were SDA's and proceeded to talk about the Sabbath. Over a year or so, my Mom kept the "aquaintance" up as friendship was inappropriate, and studied with her. Finally my Mom told her with tears that she could no longer study with her as she would not give up her belief and become an SDA. As we left the lady's house, my Mom, still in tears, told me what a shame it was that this wonderful lady was going to burn in hell. She said something to the effect that, "I have never seen anyone that appeared to love and talk about the Lord as sincerely as her." This Kelly, was one of the hardest things for me to get over. Years ago when I was living for the devil (I left SDAism in 1976) I would watch my behavior and lanuage around SDA's and not do anything out of line as I respected them and and their heaven boundness. Yet, when I was around Christian co-workers (non-SDA) I swore like a sailor, told the most raunchy jokes and demonstrated bad behavior. It didn't matter to me as they were just Babylon, poor people that were not going to make it to heaven because they didn't observe the Sabbath. One of the most wonderful things about being a Christian now, secure in my salvation as you have been reading in John, is that there are also soooo many other's that share the same joy and security as I do. It is an amazing thing to be a Christian saved by grace alone. I guess this could be called "Amazing Grace." Get a hymnal and read the words that John Newton wrote over 200 years ago. Many have sung that song zillions of times and many have never read the words. Go back and read what I have dubbed as my favorite 6 verse sermon, John 3:14-18 and 5:24. I would have typed it out but don't type well with out peeking. I'll have my Bible program loaded soon and will cheat by copying and pasting;-)) Praise God for, I think is was Max, steering you first off the gospel of John. Upward and onward.....Maryann |
