Archive through January 17, 2001 Log Out | Topics | Search
Moderators | Edit Profile

Former Adventist Fellowship Forum » ARCHIVED DISCUSSIONS 2 » Preaching the Gospel always brings persecution » Archive through January 17, 2001 « Previous Next »

Author Message
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:03 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"No man can say that we are seeking the favor and praise of men with our doctrine. We teach that all men are naturally depraved. We condemn man's free will, his strength, wisdom, and righteousness. We say that we obtain grace by the free mercy of God alone for Christ's sake. This is no preaching to please men. This sort of preaching procures for us the hatred and disfavor of the world, persecutions, excommunications, murders, and curses."
Maryann
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:17 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Luther I presume.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 8:38 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That statement, Patti, is so very true.

For we do not have the free will to pick up
God's grace as though it were a free box of
truffles on a shelf in Nieman Marcus. No! The
pure grace of God not a box of chocolates. It is
the fist of God delivered in a knockout blow to
the head of disobedient and unrepentant man.

For true grace -- in incredible contrast to
pseudograce -- ALWAYS produces
repentance and obedience.

That's what distinguishes the true from the
false "changed grace" of Jude 4.

It was therefore this repentance and
obedience that brought down upon the heads
of Luther and his fellow Reformers "the hatred
and disfavor of the world, persecutions,
excommuni- cations, murders, and curses."

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 11:43 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grace is a divine attribute; it is part of God's character. Therefore, grace could never be "false." I am not certain why you keep preaching about "false grace," because those two words are oxymoronic; they are self-exclusive.

One more point, and I shall say no more on this subject: I have to wonder what good can come from constantly focusing on the "false." Faith comes of hearing the Word of God, Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the Life, not of the constant agitation of dwelling on the "false." No one comes to Christ by being warned of a "false" grace. One is saved only by believing in what is true, not by disbelieving what is perceived to be false.

The Gospel is a message of rest and peace with God, not of agitation and uncertainty. If we know the Truth, that Christ has completed and perfected our full reconciliation with God, then we will be able to recognize any false doctrine on our own. No one will need to tell us. Our message must be, always, the message of peace with God that came of Christ's historic and finished work for undeserving sinners (salvation by grace alone).

I am not sure why some of you on here are uncomfortable with my feeble attempts to stay focused on the work of Jesus Christ for us alone, but that is the Gospel. There is nothing grander or greater or higher or deeper or more profound than the knowledge that the grace (mercy) of God forgives and accepts unworthy sinners. We can never attain a higher or more exalted or holy position in this life than kneeling in humble repentence for our sinful selves at the foot of the cross. (Brinsmead paraphrased.)

Salvation is by grace alone. God's grace--His infinite mercy--can never be false. Our message must be one of the truly Good News that Christ has redeemed the world to God, not some emotionally-charged scare tactics to try to eclipse the very power of the Gospel. The simple Truth is that God saves sinners; He justifies the ungodly. The Gospel is not about what we do; it is about what God has done in Christ. Do we find this satisfying? Or are we looking to ourselves for signs and wonders? Remember what Jesus said about the generation that demanded a sign? If we have tangible evidence, then our faith is voided, because faith is believing in that which cannot be observed. Do we find wonder and glory in "mere" forgiveness and acceptance with God? Or are we looking for something "greater" than the work of Jesus Christ?
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 2:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If "false grace" were oxymoronic and
self-exclusive, then the "changed grace" of
Jude 4 would be also. But it isn't. Nor is "false
grace."

True grace is God in action, whereas changed
grace is Satan in action.

Only the unrepentant and disobediant focus
on false grace. True believers focus on the
true. Thence comes repentance.

True faith does come of hearing the Word of
God, Jesus Christ, the Way, the Truth, and the
Life. Presumption comes of focusing on
"changed grace" (Jude 4) and only eternal
death results.

No one comes to Christ by being warned of a
false grace, it's true. But those in whom Christ
dwells are warned many times in Scripture
against the sin that false grace permits.

One is saved only by believing in what is true,
and after having so believed and experiencing
salvation, then repenting and obeying Christ.

The gospel is a message of rest and peace
with God, not of agitation and uncertainty. For
true grace produces rest and peace with God,
whereas false grace produces agitation and
uncertainty.

If we know the Truth, that Christ has
completed and perfected our full reconciliation
with God, then we will be able to recognize any
false doctrine, such as false grace. Not on our
own, but by vertue of Christ's indwelling Holy
Spirit.

Our message must be, always, the message
of peace with God that came of Christ's
historic and finished work for undeserving
sinners (salvation by grace alone). And such a
message always produces repentance and
obedience in those to whom we witness.

It is because the people on FAFF do stay
focused on the work of Jesus Christ for us
alone that we are able to distinguish true
grace from the false "changed grace" (Jude 4).
For changed grace produces neither the
indwelling of the Holy Spirit nor repentance
and obedience.

How right Brinsmead was to say: There is
nothing grander or greater or higher or deeper
or more profound than the knowledge that the
grace (mercy) of God forgives and accepts
unworthy sinners. We can never attain a
higher or more exalted or holy position in this
life than kneeling in humble repentence for
our sinful selves at the foot of the cross.

For such knowledge results in our repentance
and obedience to the Holy Spirit who is Christ
within us in verity. Therefore we don't have to
attain to any higher or more exalted or holy
position -- Christ has done all of that already
in his historic alien act on the cross. All we
can do is to repent of our own holiness and in
humility take up our cross and follow Jesus
Christ.

"Kneeling in humble repentence for our sinful
selves at the foot of the cross" IS a good work,
"filthy rags" though it may be. For it is our
grateful response to loving salvation.

God's grace--His infinite mercy--can never be
false. How true. Therefore false grace can only
be Satan's grace.

Our message must be one of the truly Good
News that Christ has redeemed the world to
God. Nor can the unredeemed disobedient
proclaim such a message.

God saves sinners; He justifies the ungodly.
And being so saved and so justified, we
repent and obey by taking up our cross and
following Jesus throughout our pilgrim life on
earth.

The gospel is not about what we do; what we
do is repent and obey in response to the
gospel.

The gospel is about what God has done in
Christ already and in response to this
accomplished work, we repent and obey.

Do we find wonder and glory in "mere"
forgiveness and acceptance with God?
Indeed! And our faith response is and must
always be repentance and obedience. Else it
is not God's grace that we find wonderful and
glorious, but Satan's.

Nothing is greater than a work of Jesus Christ
that results in repentance and obedience.

Max of the Cross
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 2:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Nothing is greater than a work of Jesus Christ
that results in repentance and obedience."

Sorry. I cannot agree. Nothing is greater than the perfect obedience that Christ worked out for us on this earth. Nothing is greater than God's grace that imputes the perfect obedience of Jesus Christ to undeserving sinners who believe in Him, that forgives helpless sinners and reconciles them completely to God for the sake of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The perfect obedience that Christ worked out
for us on this earth" is the only obedience that
works in us to produce the good work of
repentance.

"God's grace that imputes the perfect
obedience of Jesus Christ to undeserving
sinners who believe in Him" is true grace, not
"changed grace" (Jude 4).

"God's grace ... that forgives helpless sinners
and reconciles them completely to God for the
sake of the life, death and resurrection of
Jesus Christ" is the grace that results in
grateful repentance and obedience.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 3:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BONHOEFFER RELATES IMAGINARY
CONVERSATION BETWEEN PASTOR AND
"CHEAP GRACE" PARISHONER

PARISHONER: I have lost the faith I once had.

PASTOR: You must listen to the Word as it is
spoken to you in the sermon.

PARISHONER: I do; but I cannot get anything
out of it, it just falls on deaf ears as far as I'm
concerned.

PASTOR: The trouble is, you don't really want
to listen.

PARISHONER: On the contrary, I do.

And here they generally break off, because the
pastor is at a loss what to say next. He only
remembers the first half of the proposition:
"ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE OBEY." But this
does not help, for fiath is just what this
particular man finds impossible. The pastor
feels himself confronted with the ultimate
riddle of predestination. God grants faith to
some and withholds it from others. So the
pastor throws up the sponge and leaves the
poor man to his fate. AND YET THIS OUGHT
TO BE THE TURNING POINT OF THE
INTERVIEW. It is the complete turning-point.
The pastor should give up arguing with him,
and stop taking his difficulties seriously. That
will really be in the man's own interest, for he
is only trying to hide himself behind them. It is
now time to take the bull by the horns, and
say:

PASTOR: "ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY
BELIEVE."

Thus the flow of the conversation is
interrupted, and the pastor can continue:

PASTOR: You are disobedient, YOU ARE
TRYING TO KEEP SOME PART OF YOUR LIFE
UNDER YOUR OWN CONTROL. That is what
is preventing you from listening to Christ and
believing in his grace. You cannot hear Christ
because you are wilfully disobedient.
Somewhere in your heart you are refusing to
listen to his call. Your difficulty is your sins.

Christ now enters the lists again and comes
to grips with the devil, who until now has been
hiding under the cloak of cheap grace. It is
all-important that the pastor should be ready
with both sides of the proposition:

PASTOR: ONLY THOSE WHO OBEY CAN
BELIEVE, AND ONLY THOSE WHO BELIEVE
CAN OBEY.

In the name of Christ he must exhort the man
to obedience, to action, to take the FIRST step.
He must say:

PASTOR: Tear yourself away from all other
attachments, and follow him.

For at this stage, the FIRST step is what
matters most. The strong point which the
refractory sinner had occupied must be
stormed, for in it Christ cannot be heard. The
truant must be dragged from the hiding-place
which he has built for himself. ONLY THEN
CAN HE RECOVER THE FREEDOM TO SEE,
HEAR AND BELIEVE. Of course, though it is a
work, the FIRST step entails no merit in the
sight of Christ -- it can never be more than a
dead work. Even so Peter has to get out of the
ship BEFORE he can believe."

--Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Cost of Discipleship,
p.69-70.
Patti
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 3:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"The perfect obedience that Christ worked out
for us on this earth" is the only obedience that
works in us to produce the good work of
repentance.

The perfect obedience of Jesus Christ is the standard. Nothing less than this perfection is acceptable to God. And nothing less than perfection of obedience is acceptable to God.

Christ's imputed righteousness is our FULL and COMPLETE salvation. We are accounted righteous when we trust in the sufficiency of His salvation. Why would we "testify" of our filthy rags righteousness when there is a righteousness that brings eternal life, a righteousness untainted by human hands, a righteousness that reconciles to God, that the world is dying for lack of hearing? Why would I even want to mention my pathetic attempts to "please" God with the work of my hands when the world is hungering and thirsting for the righteousness that brings peace with God?
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 4:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Redeemed believers do not testify of their filthy
rags righteousness; they repent and obey.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 4:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No grace, no repentance; no repentance, no
grace.
Max
Posted on Monday, January 15, 2001 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that this is the sequence:

1. God's grace hits you like a fist to the face.

2. Suddenly you have "eyes to see and ears to
hear," and for the FIRST time in your life you
become free to choose. Otherwise you are still
a slave to sin.

3. Both the Father and the Son indwell you in
the form of the Holy Spirit.

4. You repent freely.

5. You obey freely.

6. If you blow it, you have a Savior who forgives
you your sins. But you can NEVER lose your
salvation. Falling away -- grieving the Holy
Spirit -- doesn't mean that you've lost it, only
that you never had it.

Max of the Cross
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Therefore the flesh hindereth us that we cannot keep the commandments of God, that we cannot love our neighbours as ourselves, much less can we love God with all our heart. Therefore it is impossible for us to become righteous by the works of the law. Indeed there is a good will in us, and so must there be (for it is the Spirit itself which resisteth the flesh,) which would gladly do good, fulfil the law, love God and his neighbour, and such like, but the flesh obeyeth not this good will, but resisteth it: and yet God imputeth not unto us this sin, for he is merciful to those that believe, for Christ's sake."
Martin Luthers Commentary of Galatians Page 504
Rayna
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I remember that Staupitius was wont to say: 'I have vowed unto God above a thousand times, that Iwould become a better man; but I never performed that which I vowed. Hereafter I will make no vow: for I have now learned by experience, that I am not able to perform it. Unless therefore God be favourable and merciful unto me for Christ's sake, and grant unto me a blessed and a happy hour when I shall depart out of the miserable life, I shall not be able with all my vows and all my good deeds, to stand before him."...Martin Luthers Commentary on Galatians Page 504
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 6:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rayna,

You couldn't have posted a better thing for me to see today.

God Bless you as these have been my very thoughts for a few weeks now. Finally ending with these very sentiments that you posted of Luther's writings.

It matters much to me to see this has been in someone else's head, not just mine.

Luther must have gone before me in the very ponderings I'm now engaged in. What good news to know that somebody understood, even if he is dead now.

It's as though God Himself had you post this for this itself was in my head and heart.

God Bless you richly,
D
Patti
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Praise God, Denise!
I hope it is OK if I rejoice with you!
Denisegilmore
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2001 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rejoice with those who rejoice! :)

God Bless you Patti,
your sister in Christ Jesus,
Denise
Maryann
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Preaching the Gospel always brings persecution" bothers me a bit.

I can definately see the thruth in that statement but I guess what is bothering me is that it should be be finished with "by some."

Preaching the Gospel always brings salvation to those that hear, would bother me in the same unless "to some" was inserted after salvation and "to those" removed.

What a discouraging thing it would be to go out knowing that you will be persecuted without the knowledge that there would ALSO be souls won for Christ?

I'm sure there are isolated cases of gospel preaching where all men hated the gospel, truth, Christ etc.

We have to trust that the Holy Spirit will soften the hearts of those that hear so they too may jump on Christ's bandwagon, proclaiming the good news of salvation!

I know how discouraged I am right now, knowing that my friend heard without hearing, the gospel of salvation by grace alone. It really pains my heart to have heard him say that, "It is finished" didn't mean "finished!!!" And that it is even now, as I type, being continually being worked on being finished in heaven with Jesus splattering blood in the sanctuary for our sins!

I guess as my wonderful friend Max says, I need to be hugging a palm tree (Jesus) and trust him to water and nurture any seeds that may not have fallen on the stoney part of my friend's heart.

Maryann
Valm
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear Maryann,

Have faith!! Perhaps you friend did hear it just hasn't sunk in. It will happen in God's good timing.

Valerie
Patti
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 9:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are many ways to deny the Gospel. Many Christians likewise the deny the finished work of Christ by saying that He is still completing His work of salvation IN US.

Topics | Last Day | Last Week | Tree View | Search | Help/Instructions | Program Credits Administration