| Author | Message | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Patti, You have given the Gospel in such a manner as I could only look to myself in shame. Shame faced, I looked in the mirror about two weeks ago, realizing that I CANNOT be what I want to be. That I cannot attain to perfection, or love as I could so perfectly see in others. In my despair, I have no choice but to look to my God, my Lord Jesus Christ as I have nothing to offer but my lowly self with sinful thoughts, attitudes and actions in some cases. Not as though I wanted to be sinful, it is just that I am incapable of being sinless. Now if we say we are without sin, we are liars and there is no light in us. That is Scripture. Does this mean to me that I can go on sinning? Of course not! Nor was it in my intent to sin in the first place. Determined to get to the bottom of my dilema, I mustered all the will power I had to NOT sin, only to find myself back in a sinful state. This sinful state consisted mostly in my mind but I remember well the sermon on the mount and found that it was impossible for my mind to not sin. What a go around I've had with myself and God! I questioned Him as to how I could be sinless. Finding that the more I tried to be sinless, the more I sinned. Oh what a wretched human being I've become! Finally, at my wits end with no solution, I gave in and surrendered to God and God alone. I can do nothing without God and even with God I found myself a sinner with more defects than I wanted to know about. To this I had to turn to His Mercy and realize that I must rely on His Mercy every day of my life. This is the conclusion of my thought. Having left out a whole book I could write in this struggle to win out over sin. What a spiritual darkness that enshrouded me! What a spiritual crisis this has been. But I do believe the morning has dawned finally. Feeling the condemnation has been too much. I kneel at the Cross with the faith of a mustard seed. This is my only recourse. God Bless you and thank you, Denise Praise our God for His Saving Grace! | ||
| Patti |
Denise, I have tears of joy for you tonight. I must go now, but please, let me tell you once again that the mercy of God is great; that you are forgiven and accepted because of the worthiness of the Lamb. You have reached the highest point a sinful human can reach: Knowing that God's grace is sufficient for even the likes of him/her. Never let go of that. It will sustain you through all manner of trials. Grace and peace always, Patti | ||
| Max |
^^Denise, I love you. Valerie^^ Is a fulfillment of Christ's command to agape one another as He has agape'd us. | ||
| Max |
^^You have reached the highest point a sinful human can reach: Knowing that God's grace is sufficient for even the likes of him/her. Never let go of that. It will sustain you through all manner of trials.^^ And in these trials you will obey God, for God tests the elect. | ||
| Max |
^^What a go around I've had with myself and God! I questioned Him as to how I could be sinless. Finding that the more I tried to be sinless, the more I sinned. Oh what a wretched human being I've become!^^ Denise, you have been sinless in Christ ever since you accepted him. NIV Hebrews 10:12-14: "[Christ] sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by one sacrifice he has made PERFECT [SINLESS] forever those who are being made holy." So in all of your trials of being made holy, you are sinless the whole time! Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
^^We are new creations by faith only. Faith is the evidence of things unseen; if we can see it, it is not of faith; if it is not of faith, it is sin. We live AS IF we have been literally transformed. But here on this earth our only righteousness is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.^^ True believers never live "as if" anything. Christian living is not a hypothetical existence. Nor do we live as actors in some make-believe play. The Holy Spirit in the life is REAL. Hear Paul: "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, IF the Spirit of God lives IN you. And if anyone does NOT have the Spirit of Christ, he does NOT belong to Christ. But if Christ is IN you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living IN you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives IN you." NIV Romans 8:9-11. | ||
| Max |
^^It is only when we have this kind of sure- footed assurance that our salvation has been won for us completely that we can find the initiative to live as joyful and confident Christians.^^ Thank you, Patti, for saying that as forgiven sinners "we can find the initiative to live as joyful and confident Christians." For "if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living IN you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives IN you." NIV Romans 8:9-11. It is therefore ONLY in this way -- Christ's Holy Spirit living within -- that "we can find the initiative to live as joyful and confident Christians." Blessings to you always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Max |
Dear Denise, ^^Like in what way/s is a person 'trans- formed?' I would like to know if I've been transformed or not.^^ Denise, you HAVE been transformed. But you may not "know" it in the sense of having feelings that tell you so. Many new Christians err by thinking that this transformation is complete in the beginning. This is a false and unscriptural notion. In the beginning the transformation is 0 = zero = nada in terms of knowing or outward appearance. The thief on the cross is a prime example. He knew nothing except that he believed with a heart belief -- as opposed to a devilish head-only belief -- and yet he was transformed. How do we know? Jesus said, "Today you will be with me in paradise." But the outward-appearing transformation does not stay at 0 = zero = nada. If it did, you would not have been placed among God's elect in the first instance. The transformation takes place gradually. Here's how we know (2 Corinthians 3:16-18 NIV): "Whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil [legalism = the old covenant] is taken away." Notice that "turning to the Lord" is an act of obedience in a faith-answer to Christ's call. Turning to the Lord is a necessary part of removing the legalistic veil that prevents sinners from seeing God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit). "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom." Just as Paul, after he had been knocked to the earth by Christ's blinding light on the road to Damascus, became free to choose, you became free to choose Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and Lord of you life. "And we, who with unveiled faces -- no legalism, only grace and faith -- all reflect [or behold] the Lord's glory, are BEING trans- formed into his likeness with EVER- INCREASING glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." Notice that the text does not say the trans- formation is complete in an instant. The transformation is only gradual. For some Christians it may take place only very gradually, very very slowly at first, maybe un-noticable. Maybe others will never notice it. The speed is utterly unimportant to you, for that is in the care and keeping of Christ's Holy Spirit WITHIN you. What's important is the 0 = zero = nada point. This is where the action all begins. The thief on the cross STAYED at the 0 = zero = nada point and yet was saved and was "with the Lord" in paradise anyway. So do not despair. You have ALREADY passed the 0 = zero = nada point and are now perfectly sinless (Hebrews 10:13-14). This is so because you are now wearing Christ's spot- less, seamless robe woven especially for you by Jesus Christ Himself on the cross. And you do not need to worry about your future, gradual transformation. For that is in Christ's hands by His Holy Spirit WITHIN you (2 Cor- inthians 3:16-18). You don't need to deny the transformation. You need to leave it in the Son God's hands. For you are the Good Shepherdís sheep. And when it comes to His sheep, Jesus Christ is a very jealous and protective God indeed! Hear Him (NIV John 10:27-30): My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." Godís blessings always, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Max, I have read your post and am crying once again. Especially did I read the words of Jesus that you posted and am still crying as I type to you. Thank you as I'm struggling in my walk. On some days, I feel as though I've come to naught. It is good to know that we don't transform all at once as I would have really missed the mark by a long shot. I will rest now, remembering that Jesus knows His sheep and I am one of them. I need to hang on and keep hanging on because whatever is happening is trying and I feared, winning. For what it's worth, thank you Max for reminding us all what agape is about. This is most important and sadly enough, it is online that I am getting it. In person is a totally different story. God Bless everybody posting and reading. I thank Jesus Christ for His Words especially. Those are of most comfort in this tempest I'm presently going through. May God Bless you with joy and Peace Max, your sister (one of the sheep) in Christ Jesus, Denise the ___________ <~~someone else can fill in the blank for me this time as today I don't know what name to use there. | ||
| Cindy |
Denise,___the BELOVED DAUGHTER and FRIEND of GOD! I pray your day goes well; as God will always be holding you close! Keep me in your prayers also. I, too, know the feelings of despair... Each morning I again am thankful to Rest in Christ and His Righteousness Alone. His GRACE really is sufficient! Despite our feelings... Our hope is built on a solid foundation! The message of the Cross... Christs' Finished and Perfect WORK for us! He has gained ACCESS for us into the very PRESENCE of our HOLY GOD! "But I TRUST IN YOU, O LORD; I say, 'You are MY GOD,' My TIMES ARE IN YOUR HANDS." Psalms 31 14,15 Grace always, Cindy | ||
| Patti |
Very true, Cindy. Denise, you do not have to struggle. Jesus does not call us to struggle; He calls us to rest. Not only are you not transformed all at once, you are not transformed in reality until you see your Savior face to face. We, like Paul, have to live in these bodies of death until we are changed. "We know that when we see Him, we will be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is." When we see Jesus, Denise, we will be like Him. Not before. Until then, we groan with all creation because of our sinfulness, longing for the physical reality of the redemption of our bodies. As Cindy says, God wants us to trust in Him. He wants us to believe that He will keep His promises to us; He will give us the eternal life that He has promised, not because of what we are or do, but because of the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ. Denise, I know you believe that Christ is worthy. Rest with that thought. If you are concerned about your "transformation," then you are remaining focused on yourself. That can only result in two things: 1. Discouragement, if you are honest with yourself, as you have shown yourself to be. You have proven how sinful you see yourself. And you will not be satisfied with answers that tell you that you are getting better, because, as you said, the harder you try, the more sinful you seem to become! How well I can relate! The same is true for me. But you should rejoice, as I said last night, because, Denise, the Holy Spirit is the One Who is causing you to see the sin in your life. He is leading you again to Christ for forgiveness and mercy. And I know it is the work of the Holy Spirit, because this is one of His roles--to make us understand our continual need of a Savior, to drive us back to Christ, time and again, for mercy. There is no greater experience we can have as Christians than being forgiven. 2. The only other choice is self-delusion. If we think we are getting better and better, then we are either deluded or dishonest, or we truly have not seen the absolute perfection of the Lamb of God. The more we feel that we can do in ourselves, with or without the Holy Spirit*, the less we feel our need of our Mediator; the more "righteous" we think we have become, the less we will esteem the imputed righteousness of Christ and the less need we will feel for divine grace. I quoted a text from Hebrews yesterday; I am not sure if I directed it to you, but I was astonished when it found me: Hebrews 10:1 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming--not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. Evidently, God wants us to retain a sense of our sinfulness; He wants us to remember at all times just Who it is that has saved us, that our salvation is totally extrinsic to us: We are accounted righteous by an Obedience in which we had no part, and our sins are completely atoned for by the death of Another. You are God's child, Denise; He has accepted you, not because of anything that is happening in your life, but because of the perfected and completed work of Jesus Christ. And though there are many Christians who cannot accept this fact, all He asks is for us to trust in Him. "This is the work that God requires: to believe on Him Whom He has sent." All praise, honor, glory and blessing be to Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our Faith, our Substitute in life as well as in death, our Redeemer, Lord and King. ---------- * The work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in the New Testament is never about a regenerated character; it is about testifying of Jesus. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Cindy, Thank you so much for filling in the blank with words that gave me chills! But it's true, isn't it. You too, are a BELOVED DAUGHTER and FRIEND OF GOD! Doesn't that feel great?!! Better yet, it is the KNOWING it and BELIEVING it that is the best news we could lay our hearts on. On your days of despair, I know that you too, look to our Lord, for He is WORTHY and HE alone. He is Faithful to us and this Love that He has for us is beyond words, is it not? David the Psalmist sure knew it well. I loved the verse that you put up. Reading the Psalms always gives me comfort. It seems that no matter what is happening or what happens in my life, David had already written his own experience that was very similar in emotion and loyalty and for sure dependency on God. Yes, David had an intimate relationship with God, no doubt. Sometimes, I read the Psalms and it seems as though any bad feelings I may have had prior to reading them, are gone. Same with anger or doubt and all the rest of our human emotions. Of course, I won't omit the joyous emotions that were written in there too. Also the prophetic. The entire book is great, what can I say. I used to read aloud Psalm 119 once a week. Seemed like everytime I did, there was a real calm that would come over me. Maybe it was all in my head but if it works, don't fix it, they say..:) One of my favorite Psalms is 91. I was told somewhere in these past two years that this was an antiphonic Psalm.. Goes like this: the first and second verses are us speaking. Then from verses 3-13 are the angels speaking. Then from verse 14-16 is God speaking. Anyhow, I learned this somewhere in this past two years and thought I'd share it with you. I wish I knew where I learned this but I do know that it was NOT in SDA Church. I am doing much better today and I'm sticking to the Gospel of Jesus Christ like nobody could ever believe. I've come to a conclusion in my thought through out this two years of reading the Bible and comtemplating Jesus Christ and why He died. Needless to say, this was one of my first questions to anyone that would tell me that I 'must not do this or I must do that.' My question arose in me and I would from time to time ask someone 'So, WHY did Jesus have to die?' Of course I heard various answers but through all these answers and me steering off the path into works, then back on to the Gospel, I cannot go back to works. For if I did, I would be trampling the Grace of Christ (in my humble opinion). I have must learning ahead of me, I know this. But this conclusion of the Cross is now settled in my heart and mind and for that I thank my Lord Jesus Christ, my God for these gifts. Eternal gifts at that! May Jesus Christ always be in your sights Cindy and may He Bless you with HIS Peace. your sister in HIM, Denise the (Beloved) Berean :) P.S. My offer of email correspondence is forever open for you. Again, my address is Lampdot@aol.com if ever you would like to chat and get to know your sister. God's Peace be with you! | ||
| Max |
Dear Denise, You must be careful not to give credence to counsel that contradicts Scripture. Example: ^^Denise, you do not have to struggle. Jesus does not call us to struggle; He calls us to rest.^^ Scripture calls us to both rest and struggle. Since there is no disagreement over the rest, I will present only scriptural proof that training, laboring and striving are all involved in the discipleship of those who are already saved by Christís cross: Paul speaks to Felix, governor of Caesarea (Acts 24:16 NIV): ìI STRIVE always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.î Paul writes to Timothy, a young apostolic representative (1 Timothy 4:7-11 NIV): ìTRAIN yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance (and for this we LABOR and STRIVE), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things.î More next post, MC | ||
| Max |
Denise, another example: ^^Not only are you not transformed all at once, you are not transformed in reality until you see your Savior face to face.^^ We are being transformed here and now and we donít have to wait till the Second Coming before our transformation begins and continues. Again, hereís scriptural proof: ìBut whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil [legalism and bewitchment (Glatians 3)] is taken away. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And WE, who with unveiled faces all reflect [or behold] the Lordís glory, ARE BEING TRANSFORMED INTO HIS LIKENESS WITH EVER-INCREASING GLORY, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.î Paul in 2 Corinthians 3:16-18. Blessings, MC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Dear Patti, I opened to the book of Hebrews and went to chapter 10 verse 1, as your post indicates. I kept reading however and when we get to verse 19 of chapter 10, Paul is teaching us of our Great High Priest, Jesus Christ. In verse 22 Paul says: let us draw near to God with a sincere faith, having our hearts sprinkled TO CLEANSE US FROM A GUILTY CONSCIENCE and having our bodies washed with pure water. Verse 23-24 "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds." This to me means that we do indeed spur each other on toward love and good deeds, just as it is written. But these good deeds will never justify us nor save us. This is our obligation as Christians. We are afterall, representatives or ambassadors for Christ Jesus. So it would be good to show love and good deeds as ambassadors. What do you think on this? So I'm assuming or guessing is a better word, that guilt is something we can and do have, especially if we are convicted but that in turning to God for forgiveness, we rid ourselves of this guilt. In fact, I don't know of a single person that hasn't in some time or way felt the sting of guilt. The good news is that in 1 John 1:9 we confess our sins and He is faithful to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness! What blessed news this is! Trying to be perfect in an imperfect body is never going to be attained in this life anyway. Now, there are ample Scriptures that tell us that we are indeed perfect, but that perfection is the perfection of Jesus Christ on our behalf. Am I saying this so that it is making sense? Another thing that I learned in this less than two years of reading the Bible and studying (since I'm on a roll of telling what I've learned), there is another thing regarding something Paul had said in a total defeated tone. That is something to the effect of "Who shall deliver me from this body of death?" Now somewhere, in this short walk of mine I learned that that language of Paul's meant us to picture him with a literal dead body strapped to his, with the stench of it and the decaying of it forever haunting him and of course, dead weight to be lugged around. This is either the way Paul meant it or it was how they punished people in those days. I can't remember how exactly it was explained but it will always remain in my mind and a very mental picture comes to this mind in thinking over Paul's words "Who shall deliver me from this body of death!?" I remember alot of things I learned or heard or read but have no memory of where I did learn them. I do know that this one too, was NOT from SDA Church. When I think of a dead body, strapped to me, with it's stench, it's weight, it's decaying members falling off as I walk, I can relate to wanting to be released from this body of sin. I don't even have to have a dead body strapped to me to want to be delivered from this body of mine. I look forward to the day. That is not suicidal talk, that is straightforward honesty. I thank you for the Gospel Message put in such a way as to validate my own conclusions from my limited walk. Which by the way, is used against me by many. Not just the conclusions but my limited walk (which in reading the Bible, yes it is limited, but religion has been in my life, all my life). However there is Scripture that says that God will use the fool, the outcasts et-cetera to spread the glorious news of the Gospel and I am a definate outcast and unlearned one. But God is teaching me, the Holy Ghost is teaching me and God is seeing to it that many people come into my life that have much to teach me. I am thankful beyond anything else for this. God Bless you Patti, with Peace everlasting, your sister Denise, the Berean Lampdot@aol.com if ever you would like to email. I sent you a few during your brothers demise but didn't get a response. I know you were having a hard time but possibly now, you could drop a line from time to time. Blessings to you, from our Sovereign Lord, amen. | ||
| Max |
Denise, a third example: ^^The work of the Holy Spirit in the believer in the New Testament is never about a regenerated character; it is about testifying of Jesus.^^ Paul writing in Romans 5:1-5 NIV, contradicts this false teaching: Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, WE HAVE PEACE with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And WE REJOICE IN the HOPE of the glory of God. Not only so, but we ALSO rejoice IN our SUFFERINGS, BECAUSE we know that SUFFERING PRODUCES perseverance; perseverance, CHARACTER; and CHARACTER, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us." So when suffering comes -- and it comes to us ALL -- do not be led astray by unscriptural teaching. Know rather than suffering is allowed by God to produce a Christ-like character. Not to fit you for heaven, for you are already in heaven (Luke 17:20-22). Blessings always, MC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Thank you Max for those Scriptures. I had written already to both Cindy and Patti before seeing your post. But it seems that I have already seen the truths that you are posting. There is another in 1 Peter 1:6-7 "In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. "These have come so that your faith-of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." 1 Peter 2:19-21 "For it is commendable if a man bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because he is conscious of God. "But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. "TO THIS YOU WERE CALLED, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an EXAMPLE, THAT YOU SHOULD FOLLOW IN HIS STEPS." By being an example, this is not saying as the SDA's mean, correct?? I can't imagine it so. Sda's say that Jesus is our great EXAMPLE remember? There are many many more so I do know that suffering is part of being a 'believer' and I do know that our suffering does not give us eternal life either but just part of being a 'believer.' I do know there is Scripture that tells us that a Father will chastise and refine his sons/daughters. Also test us. If I am wrong on the eternal life not being earned by suffering then please show me Scripture as I'm here with the intent to learn. God Bless you in advance for some teaching, your sister, in Christ, Denise the Berean | ||
| Max |
Denise, No, you are absolutely correct in that no amount of suffering on our part earns any part of our salvation, which was eternally sealed by the Holy Spirit when we first believed. OFTAs accuse us of teaching "once saved, always saved." But that criticism is mistaken. The true spiritual reality is, "The elect were known in advance by God from before the foundations of the earth were laid, and therefore we CANNOT lose our election, CANNOT lose our salvation. Not because of "once saved, always saved." But because the Good Shepherd knew who his sheep were before the foundations of the earth were laid, and NO ONE can snatch them out of his hand. Your salvation was secured on the cross and you can't lose it. OFTAs are mistaken. But, being eternally and securely saved, we WILL undergo suffering. This suffering WILL produce character. Not to get us into heaven, but because there IS suffering in heaven this side of the Second Coming. After that suffering will be no more. But till then there will be suffering. But our suffering is nowhere near as great as the suffering of the non-elect. And of our joy the non-elect know nothing. And we DO NOT boast or testify or witness of our suffering and our character transformation. Rather, our character transformation testifies and witnesses to the power of the Holy Spirit within us. I must say, Denise, that you have taught me things and shown me things that I hadn't noticed in Scripture before. You are becoming a teacher! Blessings always, MC | ||
| Denisegilmore |
A Berean teacher? :)) Praise God! Bless you Max and hope to see you Friday. your sister in our Lord Jesus Christ, DtB | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^We are accounted righteous by an Obedience in which we had no part, and our sins are completely atoned for by the death of Another.^^ While it is true that we are accounted righteous -- even sinless! -- by faith in Christ's obedience alone, it is definitely NOT true that nobody will hear of our obedience to Christ's one commandment, "Thou shalt agape! And anyone who teaches otherwise is causing divisions in the church and putting obstacles in the path of true believers. Hear Paul: NIV Romans 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19 EVERYONE HAS HEARD ABOUT YOUR OBEDIENCE, SO I AM FULL OF JOY OVER YOU; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil. This is absolute scriptural proof of the testimony that obedience makes to the power of the Holy Spirit within believers. These believers in Rome were not testifying to their obedience. Their obedience, rather, was testifying to Paul and filling him with joy. And anyone who teaches otherwise is causing divisions in the church and putting obstacles in the path of true believers. Max of the Cross |
