| Author | Message | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Max, Looks like there was not as much appreciation for the basketball analogy as I had;-)) I thought it served well for the illustration;-)) Nothing that comes from the human mind can describe heavenly things perfectly. With hard hat on;-));-)):):):)......Maryann | ||
| Kelly |
Max,I don't understand how God owns both teams. | ||
| Max |
Hi Kelly and Maryann, I loved the part about the girl shooting the ball into the basked at the wrong end of the court. The illustration was great for that reason. And I'm aware that illustrations cannot be made to represent spiritual reality in every single point. So, my apologies are in order on that count. I shouldn't have said the parable seemed inept. But I do think it's important not to have a concept that makes Yaweh and Satan equals. They're not equals. Dualism is the heresy that says there is a good god and an evil god who battle it out with our hearts and minds as the focus. That's wrong. (For Maryann: It's not a bingo!) Here's why: As one great OFTA*, Graham Maxwell, Ph.D., loves to say: Vote for God! Sorry, Dr. M, but that little nicety "jus' don't tote the drinkin' gourd."** Spiritual reality is not a democracy -- the rule of the people. It is rather a theocracy -- the rule of God. You don't elect God. God elects you. The evil spirit that bedeviled Saul came from the Lord. It was GOD's judgment on Saul, not Satan's. Meaning: They're NOT equals. God controls all evil beings. Satan, for example, had to formally ask and receive God's permission before he could bedevil Job. As formers we have been "bewitched" (Galatians 3:1) by OFTA into thinking that there is a Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan. As though Christ and Satan were equals! Bah! Humbug! Christ is not only King of Kings and Lord of Lords. He is also Master over Satan and all evil beings. Ever notice how in the book of Revelation the evil beings are sometimes confined to a dungeon? And are only let out when an angel from heaven flies down and unlocks the door? Only to do God's bidding? This whole drama was planned out before the foundations of the earth were laid! In eternity, though yet not in time, the cross was an accomplished fact before the foundations of the earth were laid. In truth, the Creator created us in order to save us. Learn this: God is SOVEREIGN! Blessings, MC *OFTA = Our Friends The Adventists **"Green green valley or rocky road, follow the drinkin' gourd." | ||
| Maryann |
Hmmmmm! OK, For this silly gals sports analogy of of there not being a duel between God and Satan: There will be NOOOOOO duel between the Ravens and the Giants! The Ravens will devour the Giants!!!;-))) I know, I know, I'll get it for this;-)) PS....Your last post handled it well....actually! | ||
| Max |
Sportsgirl, Are you referring to the Stupidbore by any chance? | ||
| Maryann |
Nooooo! The Grand Vessel!!!! He he he he;-))) | ||
| Kelly |
OK. Brief history of me. Adventist preschool, Adventist elementary, Adventist Jr. High, Adventist High School, Adventist College. It would be easier to name the things that I'm involved with that aren't Adventist. That would be a grand total of 2 and they just happened this week 1.) FAF 2.) Bible study I went to yesterday I've been basically told what to believe by Adventist teachers, leaders, parents, friends and relatives my entire life. So, I guess it's pretty easy to figure out what my NEXT question is after reading Max's post: If the Great Controversy isn't between Christ and Satan than who is it between? I realize that no matter how many people might chose Satan he still wouldn't win, but isn't the battle still between Christ and Satan? Even though the winner is already known the battle is still between Satan and Christ, even though they are not equals. Isn't it? I know whatever answer you guys give me will just lead to more questions, one of which is contested even within my church-Is Christ Michael? Personally, I don't think that he is, but those who believe he IS have a pretty good argument for it. Kelly | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, You are taking in a lot!!!!!!!! Just hold your head to keep it from exploding with it upturned to Christ and you WILL survive;-) I'm glad you already have the belief that Jesus is greater than all. That he is greater than angels and all angels are to worship Him etc! As to what the great controversy is or isn't. Max and others are very versed on this issue and am very glad you have asked. My friend that was here for a week, mentioned several times about the audience out in space watching with interest, the battle between Satan and Christ. To add to the questions and information you may ask and get here is the MOST important basic issue, doctrine, truth in question; the nature of Christ. This issue, in my mind, clears up the salvation issue more than other issue in the Bible. At this point though, I will let Max and others deal with your questions as they are much more studied in them than I. If you would like to have #3 thing that you are involved that isn't Adventist, e-write me at: christyoureternallife@hotmail.com I'd love to talk to you!;-)) :):):).....Maryann | ||
| Max |
Kelly, Youíre fun to talk with. Intelligent. Calm. Not easily intimidated. Inquiring. Good writer, grammarian, speller. And Iím sure Iíll learn a lot more about you if we both ìhang inî (ìhang outî?) here together for awhile. You wrote, ^^I know whatever answer you guys give me will just lead to more questions, one of which is contested even within my church -- Is Christ Michael?^^ You have to remember: Youíre not talking with people whoíve never been Adventist. I was born SDA with an SDA evangelist-pastor- conference-exec father, SDA educated through seminary at AU, 20-year veteran of church employment as professional SDA journalist, attendance/membership in scores of SDA local churches, etc. Okay, back to now: ^^If the Great Controversy isn't between Christ and Satan then who is it between?^^ My first reaction: What Great Controversy? EGWís concept is almost-but-not-quite dualistic. (Dualism: Two equal gods, one good and the other evil, battle throughout eternity.) She tends to raise Satan up almost-but-not- quite to the level of God and to lower God-the- Son down to the same level. For her theyíre both archangels. Michael is Christ, but Christ is not God. For her he is only the Son of God. As though the Father is God, but the Son is lesser. Just a demigod. Thus when Jesus had died and was in the tomb, he did not raise himself up as Scripture clearly says, but his Father resuscitated him. For her Jesus is our Savior only in the sense that he is our example. Heís not very strong, you see, being only a demigod. Like: Youíre drowning in the sea and Jesus comes along rowing a boat. But instead of hauling you into the boat, he jumps into the water with you (the incarnation) and gives you swimming lessons. Then, after youíve learned to swim, he gives you his rowboat and goes back to his sanctuary in heaven. Now, to get to your destination -- salvation = heaven -- you have to row. One oar is faith, the other works. (Again, I kid you not. The relevant quotations are available on the Ellen White Estate website run by Andrews University.) Bottom line: You have to have both faith AND WORKS to get to heaven. This is the second greatest heresy in Adventism (resulting the horrendously erroneous ìinvestigative judgmentî doctrine). The first is the destruction of the full deity of Christ. And as for the Holy Spirit, well, on that subject, ìSilence is golden,î says Sr. White. (I kid you not. The references are there and theyíve all been posted on this website.) Back to your questions: ^^I realize that no matter how many people might chose Satan he still wouldn't win, but isn't the battle still between Christ and Satan? Even though the winner is already known the battle is still between Satan and Christ, even though they are not equals. Isn't it?^^ Isnít it funny how OFTAs, even formers, assume the war is still going on? (Iíll get back to this a few grafs down the line.) Isnít it funny, as well, how OFTAs ASSUME that Satan is an evil deity? Instead of what he really is -- a pathetic, beaten foe who has to receive permission before he can afflict one of us? (Read Job.) They love to quote Isaiah 14 (NIV): 13 You [meaning Satan, though this isnít what the text says] said in your heart, "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High." Nothing wrong with quoting Isaiah. But the NIV text note to this passage says this: ìSome believe that Isaiah is giving a descrip- tion of the fall of Satan (cf. Lk 10:18 -- where, however, Jesus seems to be referring to an event contemporary with himself). But the passage clearly applies to the king of Babylon, who is later used as a type (prefiguration) of the ìbeastî who will lead the Babylon of the last days (see Rev 13:4; 17:3). Cf. the descrip- tion of the ruler of Tyre in Eze 28.î So in this passage the prophetic ìbeastî has reared its ugly head again. But, remember, in Revelation the beasts are under the direction of the dragon, who is Satan. And, as we formers now know, Satan is a pathetic being who ran in terror when Jesus came (Read Mark 1) and who, after the cross, has been totally cringing under the absolute power and glory of the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And so, Kelly, my answer would be: No. The battle, though it was certainly between Christ and Satan during Christís temptations in the desert, for example, is over. The warís over, Kelly. THE WAR IS OVER! OFTAs have it still going on. For them the final battle hasnít even started yet. Thatís another one of their multitude of sub-heresies. All that remains are mopping-up operations. Itís like WWII after Hitler shot himself to death. There were still skirmishes, but no more big battles. The truth: The war was fought 2000 years ago in Palestine and the last battle was fought and won by Christ on the cross. Okay, so there are still skirmishes. Some of them involve me and some you, Kelly. Hear the one who fulfilled prophecy by denying his Lord three times, then went outside and ìwept bitterlyî: ìHumble yourselves, therefore, under Godís mighty hand [because, see, heís the victor], that he may lift you up in due time. Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you. Be self-controlled and alert. your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour. Resist him, standing firm in the faith, because you know that your brothers throughout the world are undergoing the same kind of sufferings.î NIV 1 Peter 5:8-9. Blessings, MC | ||
| Valm |
This has been a most interesting thread. Kelly, how are you doing with all of this? It has set off so many questions in my mind! I have it in my mind to find Bible texts related to three biggies: SEAL of GOD, TESTIMONY of JESUS and SPIRIT OF PROPHECY. Those I have obtained on the Seal of God obviously point to it being the Holy Sprit and are in my above post. Does anyone have anymore than the three I listed 2 Cor 1:22 Eph 1:1`3 and Ephsesians 4:30? The ones on the testimony of Jesus seems to refer to his life, death, teachings and sacrifice to atone us of our sins. In my concordance I only found two John 4:32-33 and John 21:24. Anymore out there? The third testimony of Jesus is the one in Revelation 19:10 which states that the testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of Prophecy. I always grew up thinking of this as the proof text for EGW's writings and now I read it and say HOW did anyone come up with that? I read it now and say it means all of the ancient prophets were pointing to the life, death, and sacrificial atonement Jesus gave to us. So my question is: are there any texts I am missing on these three points which were spurred on by this excellent conversation? And now there is that whole Michael the Archangel thing. I haven't thought about that in a long while. Kelly I hope all is going well for you. Is you husband having the same questions that you are? I hope the best for you. Valerie | ||
| Patti |
In answer to your question concerning "the Spirit of prophecy," I am reposting an article I wrote in response to SDA claims that Ellen White is the manifestation of the Spirit of Prophecy. I did a relatively simple study of the gift of prophecy as recorded in the New Testament. It seems to me that it all boils down to this single question: Was Ellen White indeed a prophet sent from and divinely inspired by God? To explore this question, it would behoove us to have a common terminology. As I read the posts today, I wondered if we had a common definition of the words "prophecy," "prophet," and "prophesy," so I decided to find out the context and usage of these words in the New Testament. I looked up the definition of "prophecy" in Easton's Bible Dictionary: "The great prediction which runs like a golden thread through the whole contents of the Old Testament is that regarding the coming and work of the Messiah; and the great use of prophecy was to perpetuate faith in his coming, and to prepare the world for that event.... "But the great body of Old Testament prophecy relates directly to the advent of the Messiah, beginning with Gen. 3:15, the first great promise, and extending in ever-increasing fulness and clearness all through to the very close of the canon. The Messianic prophecies are too numerous to be quoted. 'To him gave all the prophets witness.'" Jesus Himself acknowledges this in these verses: Matthew 13:13 "Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 13:14 "And in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, 'You will keep on hearing, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND; And YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE; This was the first reference that popped up in my search. Jesus is speaking of the prophecy of Isaiah of which He Himself, Jesus, was the fulfillment. Shortly after in the same chapter, there is this use of the word prophet: Matthew 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the multitudes in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable, 13:35 so that what was spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, "I will open My mouth in parables; I will utter things hidden since the foundation of the world." Again, Jesus is making the claim that He is the fulfillment of the words of the Old Testament prophets. According to the definition and these texts, prophecy in the Old Testament was overwhelming used to foretell the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But what about in the New Testament? I think that SDAs have always had the answer, although they did not recognize it. Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, "Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." How many times is this quoted in the SDA church? Unfortunately, it has been skewed to mean something else, something almost blasphemous. But what is the true meaning? The words are right there, right in front of your eyes and need very little spin or interpretation. "The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." What is the spirit of prophecy? Testifying of Jesus. I believe that, just as the overwhelming amount of OT prophecy was of Jesus Christ, that the New Testament prophet is one who testifies of Jesus. And who inspires this testimony? The Holy Spirit of course. John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth, who proceeds from the Father, He will bear witness of Me, John 16:7 "But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper shall not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 16:8 "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; 16:9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 16:10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you no longer behold Me; 16:11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. 16:12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 16:13 "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 16:14 "He shall glorify Me for He shall take of Mine, and shall disclose it to you. 16:15 "All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said, that He takes of Mine, and will disclose it to you. 16:16 "A little while, and you will no longer behold Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me." What is the thrust of the role of the Holy Spirit on this earth? Again, to testify of Jesus; "He shall glorify Me." The Holy Spirit never glorifies Himself (or His work in the believer. Only Jesus, the spotless Lamb of God.) Is it possible that to prophesy, in the New Testament, was (I hate to use the SDA word, "only," or "merely") simply to testify of Jesus? To tell of His great saving act? Let's examine the other passages: Romans 12:4 For just as we have many members in one body and all the members do not have the same function, 12:5 so we, who are many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; 12:7 if service, in his serving; or he who teaches, in his teaching; 12:8 or he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. This passage most assuredly fits the definition. "if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith" Since faith is the tool by which we reach out for the great salvation of Christ in the Gospel, then this definition fits like a glove. We testify of Jesus (witness of His saving act) according to the degree of faith we have in His ability to save us to the uttermost. How about some more? Acts 2:16 but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: 2:17 'And it shall be in the last days,' God says, 'That I will pour forth of My Spirit upon all MANKIND; And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams; 2:18 Even upon My bondslaves, both men and women, I will in those days pour forth of My Spirit And they shall prophesy. So this was a fulfillment of OT prophecy itself, but please notice just what the "sons and daughters" were prophesying on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know-- 2:23 this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 2:24 "And God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power. Acts 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 2:35 Until I make Thine enemies a footstool for Thy feet." ' 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ-- this Jesus whom you crucified." Their prophecy was a testimony of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, risen and exalted. ...to be continued... | ||
| Patti |
So if we are to take the preceding definition of New Testament prophecy as being accurate, then I suppose we could call Ellen White (or anyone elses) a prophet because she occasionally does testify of Jesus, and sometimes accutrately presents the Gospel of salvation by the grace of God alone. I do think that SDAs have a sensationalist approach to many things, and I believe that the homage they give to Ellen White is more sensationalist than biblical. They are so enamored by the supposedly supernatural events of her life and point to these as signs of a prophet, while overlooking the single most important aspect of the gift of prophecy, and that is to testify of Jesus. Of course, this is not very attention-getting. It is not flashy or glamourous, and does not bring in the big bucks. Often people who are hooked on sensationalism become weary with the constant reiteration of the merits of Christ. It makes me wonder what they will do in heaven, because the saints throughout all eternity will sing the song of Lamb. Jesus warned against sensationalism and looking for supernatural signs while He was here on earth: John 4:48 Jesus therefore said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe." I am afraid this is the situation with those SDAs who hang on to the myth of Ellen White. I would be delighted to declare that I believe in Ellen White as a prophet IF I could throw out everything she wrote that was not "Gospel truth." I daresay that would be well over 95% of her voluminous "works." But since the "other stuff" eclipses any mention she might make of our Substitute and Surety, I would have to say that her use as a New Testament prophet is severely curtailed. One last point about prophecy. The SDAs seem to regard prophecy as a static gift--a gift that is given to a single person once a dispensation. This is totally contrary to the practical usage of the word "prophecy" in the New Testament: Romans 12:6 And since we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let each exercise them accordingly: if prophecy, according to the proportion of his faith; According to this text, the gift of prophecy, just like the gifts of teaching, diligence, mercy, exhortation and generosity, is a dynamic gift that the Holy Spirit bestows upon many believers at any time in the history of the world. There is no way one could read into this text that there was to be a single last great prophet in the 19th century. Paul reiterates this them in I Corinthians: 1 Cor. 12:10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. And then there is this interesting verse: 1Cor. 14:22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe, but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers, but to those who believe. In summary, the New Testament usage of the word "prophecy" is not the same as the SDA's. The authors of the NT used the word prophecy as a dynamic gift to the believers in the church to testify of Jesus and to edify the church. The SDAs see the gift of prophecy as mainly a gift of prognistication, fulfilled entirely in Ellen White and all of her millions of written words. Was Ellen White a true prophet of God? My most generous answer would be that she was serving in that capacity, as anyone else is, when she was testifying of Jesus. What she was when she was acting in judgment or promoting error--well, that is for you to prayerfully decide. Are SDAs WRONG in saying that Ellen was a prophet? I think that it is not so much that they are wrong in saying that she prophesied (if one chooses to ignore the error, of course); rather, they are wrong in denying that role to anyone else in history since John. And they are wrong in promoting that they are THE true church because of Ellen. God's true remnant will have a live and thriving gift of prophecy, a zeal for the Gospel, not merely a dead prophet. | ||
| Patti |
Val asked: The ones on the testimony of Jesus seems to refer to his life, death, teachings and sacrifice to atone us of our sins. In my concordance I only found two John 4:32-33 and John 21:24. Anymore out there? I just found this one (of course, it was probably never lost in the first place! :): 1 John 5:6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. Good stuff, huh? | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Val, I can't remember; can you do a short version of how long you have been a Former, how long you questioned the doctrines and the major events leading up to it? Thank you;-)) IBC | ||
| Kelly |
Hi, Valerie, You have asked me several questions and I haven't answered them yet. The last two were: How are you doing with this (discussion)? and Is your husband having the same questions that you are? I'm doing ok with the information that you all are passing along to me because it's not "personal", I bought a new Bible when I started reading John as to avoid any preconceived ideas about "what scripture says" because my old Bible is pretty marked up with "what Adventist say". I'm just trying to follow the natural course of the conversation. Which was easier before the last question you asked. That one jolted me into reality! My husband is completely closed to any truth other than the Adventist truth. I have shared with him in the past different things that my "former Adventist" friend has told me and he has quoted the "typical" Adventist retort quiet angrily. (He would probably be very angry with me for reading/posting on this website. I've been careful to cover my "tracks") I had been able to be very objective until I read that question (what does your husband think?). Late last night after contemplating it I realized that whatever I decide to think within my mind about religion will have to remain there. On the outside I will have to remain an Adventist. To not do so would be destructive to my marriage, my children. My hands are tied, my course in life is set by my circumstances. I can possible change within my thoughts, but that's it! That's how my friend who left the church and I differ greatly. She married a non-Adventist, who never opposed her in her religious beliefs and never imposed his beliefs on her either. She has something that I don't have. She has "physical-spiritual freedom", I don't. But even in oppression you can have spiritual freedom, you just can't say or act how you feel. At this point, I still believe in the validity of the Sabbath, I don't think it's optional. I understand your view point based upon Romans 14, but I don't believe this does away with the 10 commandments. But if I should come to the point of believing, I'd still have to keep the day and say nothing about it. Everything I know is Adventist. If I left the church I would have nothing. My family life is also different from my "former Adventist" friend. Her family was always extremely close, loving. Mine was not. Someone asked me how my friend was treated after she left the church and how she in turned treated others. I know she cares about me deeply. I also know she has been hurt, not by just friends, but by her family. Her parents, who she had been so close to, told her that in rejecting the church she was personally rejecting them. I'll have to admit that I felt the same way toward her. Her decision wasn't just for her personal it affected everyone around her. But she didn't let the "hurt" change her love for the people she knew. I'd like to say that I didn't let it change the way I looked at her, but it did. I stopped taking any initiative to communicate with her. If she wrote or called I'd would respond very impersonally. She didn't let it go by without saying something either. She told me exactly how she felt about, too. She would rather me not respond at all, if my response was only out of duty and that if it made me so uncomfortable to speak with her that she would go her way and not put me in the position anymore. I would like to be able to tell you what city I live in, but I can't share too much for fear of being "discovered". That's really sad, isn't it? To be "in the land of free and home of the brave" but the reality is bondage and fear. I'm going to keep reading scripture only for the next several months. (It has been difficult to not "run" to E.W. for a easier understanding, it's a habit). I don't know, for me, what it can really change, but I do want to understand. And who knows with understanding, belief may follow. Kelly | ||
| Valm |
Kelly, I understand completely and I want you to know that you have great understanding of the ramifications this has on your whole social and family structure. You can have the Gospel message and still choose to keep the "Adventist Traditions". And that may be the most sensible thing for you to do at this time in your life. Please keep studying with us. Even if you do remain within Adventist traditions, the change in your thoughts (perhaps) will come as a tremendous respite from what you are accustomed to. Instead of HAVING to keep the SABBATH you will be celebrating in GODS LOVE FOR YOU. Instead of worrying about what you are eating you will relax and enjoy your meal. Instead of hyperventilating every time your kids become defiant, you will realize this is part of healthy development. What I am saying is that once someone sees things through the Gospel message and lives in the NEW COVENANT, day to day things are not as big of a deal anymore. Jesus said his burden is light and his yoke is easy for a definite reason, and you will experience that in your day to day life. It won't come instantly, remember there are years and years of habits and patterns of thinking that will have to be reprogramed. But it will happen. It took me almost 20 years to start chilling out. But it is well worth it and I am pretty slow on things of these matters. And I understand you wishing to keep your anonomynity. Should you live in my area, Seattle and wish to meet just email Mary or Denise and they will put us in contact. If you need support in any way, I want you to know that I am out here. God Bless you Kelly I deeply admire your search, and it has revitalized my determination to be able to learn what the Bible says about each and everyone of these beliefs I grew up under. I appreciate that. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Patti, Thank you for your study above. I have cut and pasted it to a word document to print. I can not concentrate very well when reading a screen! And it will be my read throughout this day. (I also don't read in a lump sum, my window of focus is small!) I will talk to you after I read it. Valerie | ||
| Valm |
Maryann, Is there a short version in anything? I have not been a practicing Adventist for about 18 to 21 years. I wished I could say that I studied my way out of it but I did not. It came on the heels of two emotionally traumatic events in my life and how the people closest to me responded to them and my actions. I was so hurt by these that I just couldn't be around Adventist people anymore. Then I went through a couple of years of sowing wild oats as I say. And then I met my husband, a Catholic and we got married by an Episcopalian preist and started going to an Episcopalian church. However, I was still pretty haunted by the SDA doctrines for aout 12 to 15 years past that. Everytime I would either visit my parents or speak with them on the phone I would go into complete panic attacks. What helped me the mostwas that my Aunt became and left the Adventist church while all of this was happening in my life. I felt a strong sense of sadness to watch my parents cut off communication with her over this. I kept in touch with her. I once shared with her that I still couldn't read my Bible and she gently told me because I still read it like an Adventist. She had a calm and peace about her that she did not have as an SDA and I wanted that!!!! She introduced me to Ratzlaff's book about 3 or 4 years ago. That is when I started to feel some peace over this. His books logically and lovingly revealed that all of those SDA messages I had wired into me were based on FALSE DOCTRINE. It still took me up to the last few months, however, to be able to read my Bible without anxiety. The biggest thing that helped that is FAF and reading that little book I keep pushing: NEW COVENANT CHRISTIANS. Through all of this something deep inside of me just knew that God had to be loving. I knew that if God was like the portrayal of God by the SDA's it would be like existing in a loveless marraige and I did not want any of that. Oddly, I kept going to the Episcopal chuch through all of this and I even play the organ for a small church the last couple of years. My hope is now that I will become knowledgable in the Bible that I will be able to one day speak these things with my family. So pray for me all. I wish to be able to have a part in bringing the Gospel to my family. | ||
| Valm |
Patti, I have done my first read and will reread to rethink some of these things. My goal here is to be able to speak these things with SDA's. but I find their own way of thinking on these texts so arbritrary that I do not know where to start. On rereading Rev 19:10 The angel says that he and John's brothers hold the testimony of Jesus. The wonderful verses in 1 John 5 give us better definition, from the author of Revelation himself as to what the testimony is. It seems like our Adventist family has arbritrarily assigned their own "testiomonies" as the testimony of Jesus as well as EGW as the spirit driving those testimonies. Oh, how did this happen and how to you help those you love to see these texts from a different perspective? Valerie | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Kelly, Your above post put a tear in my heart. The security that has to be exercising reminds me of a life I lived for nearly 15 years, but for different reasons. If getting an e-mail from anyone of us is a risk, you could always get a hotmail account that was private and you could talk to and ask questions of those that have posted their e-dresses in complete security. Or even post you new anonymous e-dress. There is some materials, that I'm sure you would find very interesting, that any number of us would be delighted to send you also if that were possible and safe for you. Max said something like, you are fun to talk to and I say that too along with you being a pleasure to share with. A sis.......Maryann PS....How did you find this site? |
