| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
^^Whenever we mingle our own works, "fruits of the Spirit," changed lives, regenerated character into the foundation of our salvation OR our testimony, we remain on a foundation of sand.^^ WE do not so mingle, because WE are not in control, but have given all control over to God. God -- our SOVEREIGN -- controls our lives by our freely-responding faith in Him. Therefore we do not build on a foundation of sand, much less remain on one, since our faith has been founded on the Rock. | ||
| Max |
^^I hear people on here going around and around worrying about if their life reflects the character of Jesus Christ enough so that their witness is strong and clear to the "world."^^ Branches whose lives truly do bear the fruits of the Spirit don't go "around worrying about if their life reflects the character of Jesus Christ enough so that their witness is strong and clear to the world." | ||
| Max |
^^Our characters can NEVER even come close to reflecting the perfection of Jesus Christ.^^ How true! | ||
| Patti |
"Faith also comes by observing" is not only unsupportable biblicaly, it is a contradiction of terms. Faith is believing in the unobservable Heb. 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. The text you provided itself states that these people were known for their trust in God; it says nothing of their changed characters: "Became a model" How? By believing. "Your faith in God has become known everywhere." "The Lord's message rang out from you." What is the Lord's message? The Gospel. Salvation by the perfect righteousness of Christ alone. | ||
| Max |
^^Our witness, our testimony is to the life and death of Jesus Christ, ONLY.^^ It is "the life and death of Jesus Christ ONLY" that is the Holy-Spirit sap flowing WITHIN the branches that causes in the love-flowers to blossom and bear "new wine" grapes mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13 and throughout the New Testament. | ||
| Max |
^^If we think we are winning people to Jesus Christ by our sporadic attempts at "agape love," then we are fooling ourselves greatly.^^ Our Sovereign uses US, we do not use God. God is never mocked, neither in this nor in any other way. Therefore we do not think WE are doing the winning. Thus we are neither fooling ourselves nor mocking God. | ||
| Max |
^^Not that we should not try to love others as ourselves--an impossible task that we are commanded to keep trying to achieve.^^ But we are not commanded to worry about it. That would be mocking God. Nor is there any to worry. "For nothing is impossible with God." NIV Luke 1:37. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Faith comes only of hearing of Jesus Christ; not of works....^^ You ADDED the word "only." Not in the text, not cricket. NIV Romans 10:17 "...faith comes from hearing the message...." In both Testaments "hearing" can also mean "observing." And in NIV 1 Thessalonians 1:3-9 quoted above, Paul describes exactly the process of how the Thessalonians became true heart believers: By imitating Paul and his companions, becoming love-that-works believers, and then witnessing by MODELING their love-works to the surrounding pagans such that "the LORDíS MESSAGE RANG OUT FROM YOU not only in Macedonia and Achaia -- YOUR FAITH IN GOD HAS BECOME KNOWN EVERYWHERE." | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Here is the definition of Love or Agape: 26 agape {ag-ah'-pay} from 25; TDNT - 1:21,5; n f AV - love 86, charity 27, dear 1, charitably+2596 1, feast of charity 1; 116 1) brotherly love, affection, good will, love, benevolence 2) love feasts About Strongs Concordance for Strongs Number 26 Go to 1Jo 2:5 There are 116 instances of verses containing Strong's number 26. Page 5, verses 101 - 116. 1Jo 4:16 And [2532] we [2249] have known [1097] (5758) and [2532] believed [4100] (5758) the love [26] that [3739] God [2316] hath [2192] (5719) to [1722] us [2254]. God [2316] is [2076] (5748) love [26]; and [2532] he that dwelleth [3306] (5723) in [1722] love [26] dwelleth [3306] (5719) in [1722] God [2316], and [2532] God [2316] in [1722] him [846]. 1Jo 4:16 And [2532] we [2249] have known [1097] (5758) and [2532] believed [4100] (5758) the love [26] that [3739] God [2316] hath [2192] (5719) to [1722] us [2254]. God [2316] is [2076] (5748) love [26]; and [2532] he that dwelleth [3306] (5723) in [1722] love [26] dwelleth [3306] (5719) in [1722] God [2316], and [2532] God [2316] in [1722] him [846]. 1Jo 4:16 And [2532] we [2249] have known [1097] (5758) and [2532] believed [4100] (5758) the love [26] that [3739] God [2316] hath [2192] (5719) to [1722] us [2254]. God [2316] is [2076] (5748) love [26]; and [2532] he that dwelleth [3306] (5723) in [1722] love [26] dwelleth [3306] (5719) in [1722] God [2316], and [2532] God [2316] in [1722] him [846]. 1Jo 4:17 Herein [1722] [5129] is our [3326] [2257] love [26] made perfect [5048] (5769), that [2443] we may have [2192] (5725) boldness [3954] in [1722] the day [2250] of judgment [2920]: because [3754] as [2531] he [1565] is [2076] (5748), so [2532] are [2070] (5748) we [2249] in [1722] this [5129] world [2889]. 1Jo 4:18 There is [2076] (5748) no [3756] fear [5401] in [1722] love [26]; but [235] perfect [5046] love [26] casteth [906] (5719) out [1854] fear [5401]: because [3754] fear [5401] hath [2192] (5719) torment [2851]. [1161] He that feareth [5399] (5740) is [5048] [0] not [3756] made perfect [5048] (5769) in [1722] love [26]. 1Jo 4:18 There is [2076] (5748) no [3756] fear [5401] in [1722] love [26]; but [235] perfect [5046] love [26] casteth [906] (5719) out [1854] fear [5401]: because [3754] fear [5401] hath [2192] (5719) torment [2851]. [1161] He that feareth [5399] (5740) is [5048] [0] not [3756] made perfect [5048] (5769) in [1722] love [26]. 1Jo 4:18 There is [2076] (5748) no [3756] fear [5401] in [1722] love [26]; but [235] perfect [5046] love [26] casteth [906] (5719) out [1854] fear [5401]: because [3754] fear [5401] hath [2192] (5719) torment [2851]. [1161] He that feareth [5399] (5740) is [5048] [0] not [3756] made perfect [5048] (5769) in [1722] love [26]. 1Jo 5:3 For [1063] this [3778] is [2076] (5748) the love [26] of God [2316], that [2443] we keep [5083] (5725) his [846] commandments [1785]: and [2532] his [846] commandments [1785] are [1526] (5748) not [3756] grievous [926]. 2Jo 1:3 Grace [5485] be [2071] (5704) with [3326] you [5216], mercy [1656], [and] peace [1515], from [3844] God [2316] the Father [3962], and [2532] from [3844] the Lord [2962] Jesus [2424] Christ [5547], the Son [5207] of the Father [3962], in [1722] truth [225] and [2532] love [26]. 2Jo 1:6 And [2532] this [3778] is [2076] (5748) love [26], that [2443] we walk [4043] (5725) after [2596] his [846] commandments [1785]. This [3778] is [2076] (5748) the commandment [1785], That [2443], as [2531] ye have heard [191] (5656) from [575] the beginning [746], ye should walk [4043] (5725) in [1722] it [846]. 3Jo 1:6 Which [3739] have borne witness [3140] (5656) of thy [4675] charity [26] before [1799] the church [1577]: whom [3739] if thou bring forward on their journey [4311] (5660) after [516] [0] a godly [2316] sort [516], thou shalt do [4160] (5692) well [2573]: Jud 1:2 Mercy [1656] unto you [5213], and [2532] peace [1515], and [2532] love [26], be multiplied [4129] (5684). Jud 1:12 These [3778] are [1526] (5748) spots [4694] in [1722] your [5216] feasts of charity [26], when they feast [4910] (5740) with you [5213], feeding [4165] (5723) themselves [1438] without fear [870]: clouds [3507] [they are] without water [504], carried about [4064] (5746) of [5259] winds [417]; trees [1186] whose fruit withereth [5352], without fruit [175], twice [1364] dead [599] (5631), plucked up by the roots [1610] (5685); Jud 1:21 Keep [5083] (5657) yourselves [1438] in [1722] the love [26] of God [2316], looking for [4327] (5740) the mercy [1656] of our [2257] Lord [2962] Jesus [2424] Christ [5547] unto [1519] eternal [166] life [2222]. Rev 2:4 Nevertheless [235] I have [2192] (5719) [somewhat] against [2596] thee [4675], because [3754] thou hast left [863] (5656) thy [4675] first [4413] love [26]. Rev 2:19 I know [1492] (5758) thy [4675] works [2041], and [2532] charity [26], and [2532] service [1248], and [2532] faith [4102], and [2532] thy [4675] patience [5281], and [2532] thy [4675] works [2041]; and [2532] the last [2078] [to be] more than [4119] the first [4413]. You are on page 5 of 5. To view other pages, select page number. (Verse range also shown) 1 (Mat 24:12 - 1Cr 13:4) 2 (1Cr 13:4 - Eph 4:2) 3 (Eph 4:15 - 1Ti 4:12) 4 (1Ti 6:11 - 1Jo 4:12) 5 (1Jo 4:16 - Rev 2:19) The Blue Letter Bible has Search Tools, Commentaries, Lexicons and Concordances! at: http://www.blueletterbible.org May God Bless all today, off to lay down, your sister in Christ Jesus, DtB | ||
| Max |
^^And whenever we testify to our own works, we are, in essence, putting ourselves in the middle of our universe.^^ How true. That's why it is Christ's Holy Spirit WITHIN us that sovereignly USES us to bear the fruits of the SPIRIT, not of us. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^You cannot point to your "righteousness" (the work of God in you through the Holy Spirit) without giving "glory" to yourself.^^ If it is truly "the work of God in you through the Holy Spirit" then we'll probably be unaware of it, much less pointing to it. | ||
| Max |
^^When we witness to the perfect saving act of Jesus Christ, we are giving glory to Him only, we are offering them a gift beyond price.^^ For such witness involves DOING! "So, whether you EAT or DRINK, or WHAT- EVER you do, do all to the glory of God." 1 Corinthians 10:31Ý | ||
| Max |
^^Jesus Christ and Him crucified IS our perfect testimony.^^ By our loving actions. For if not, then we are "only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." NIV 1 Corinithians 13:1. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time. 7 And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle--I am telling the truth, I am not lying--and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.^^ This text cannot be used to support any contention that we believers are NOT to witness BY our loving actions. Its context prohibits such an interpretation. For the preceding text asks us to make "requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving that we may LIVE peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness...." And in the following text Paul writes that he wants "women to DRESS modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with GOOD DEEDS, appropriate for women who profess to worship." (So we won't get off message here, I quote the NIV text note to this scriptural command by Paul: "Not a total ban on the wearing of jewelry or braided hair. Rather, Paul was expressing caution in a society where such things were signs of extravagant luxury and proud personal display.") In other words, the essence of what Paul is saying here is that the women in Timothy's churches were to WEAR GOOD DEEDS! What a metaphor! | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^When we testify to our own righteousness, it is like throwing a drowning man an anchor. Or just telling him to swim harder. Or telling him that because you were able to swim to shore, he can also. Nonsense, of course.^^ I cannot recall a single instance of anyone on this website testifying to his/her own righteousness. Nor can you. But many have testified to receiving the saving act of the cross by observing and in some cases receiving the love-actions of others, the fruits of the Spirit in verity. | ||
| Max |
^^Our message is not a "how to" message; it is an "It is finished" message.^^ Delivered in patient, kind, non-envying, non- boasting, non-proud, non-rude, non-self- seeking, not easily angered, no-recording-of- wrongs, not-delighting-in-evil, "rejoicing with the truth," always protecting, always trusting, always hopng, always persevering LOVING ACTIONS. ACTIONS that are even more important than in words -- seeing that actions most often speak louder than words. For, "If I [Paul himself] speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." And Christ asks, commands us to agape God, each other and even our enemies as he has agape'd us. | ||
| Max |
^^2 Tim. 12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I WAS ONCE A BLASPHEMER AND A PERSECUTOR AND A VIOLENT MAN, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners--of whom I AM the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Hardly a testimony to Paul's regenerated character.^^ Not a testimony TO "Paul's regenerated character." But a testimony TO the cross BY "Paul's regenerated character." For if in this very letter to Timothy he were still blaspheming God, he would have no regenerated character BY which to testify of the power of the cross in his life. And if at the time of his writing this letter he was still PERSECUTING Christians and BEHAVING VIOLENTLY, he would have no regenerated character BY which to testify of the power of the cross in his life. Notice that Jesus Christ "considered me [Paul] faithful, appointing me to his SERVICE." Not a service un-energized by the loving Vine sap of the Holy Spirit running through his every artery and vein. Nor in empty words alone. For he said, "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal." Never! It was Paul's NON-blaspheming, NON-persecuting, NON-violent CHANGED character that testified -- not to his own righteousness -- but that of his Lord alone. Paul was in Christ "a new creation." For him all things had become new. The old had passed away. The new had come. He was a changed man! If he were not his testimony could only have been of self and Satan, never of God both on the cross and WITHIN him. | ||
| Max |
^^Paul's witness to himself is that he is a great example in that Christ had mercy on him in spite of his (continued) status of "chief of sinners."^^ Paul's "(continued) status of 'chief of sinners'" was not a witness TO HIMSELF! That idea cannot be supported by the text! Paul did not shift his focus here from Christ to himself! Ugh! Rather, his "chief of sinners" status was quite simply another witness TO CHRIST, to the mercy and love of Christ for him that could maintain his IRREVOCABLE salvation even in the face of that status. It was also a witness for our benefit. For if we can see in Paul, Christ's humility in calling himself the chief of sinners and STILL Christ maintains his salvation, then WE can also -- by imitating Paul -- call ourselves chiefs of sinners and know that OUR irrevocable salvation continues on also. | ||
| Patti |
Not a testimony TO "Paul's regenerated character." But a testimony TO the cross BY "Paul's regenerated character." Hardly. Paul's character is sinful, through and through, as he testifies. His character is not the witness; his words are. A witness is one who testifies. His words always focus the reader upon their perfect salvation in Jesus Christ. | ||
| Patti |
Rather, his "chief of sinners" status was quite simply another witness TO CHRIST, to the mercy and love of Christ for him that could maintain his IRREVOCABLE salvation even in the face of that status. It was also a witness for our benefit. For if we can see in Paul, Christ's humility in calling himself the chief of sinners and STILL Christ maintains his salvation, then WE can also -- by imitating Paul -- call ourselves chiefs of sinners and know that OUR irrevocable salvation continues on also. I have heard this argument before--that Paul was merely using hyperbole in expressing modesty in regard to his character. However, if this is true, then Paul is bearing false witness. Either he is truly "the chief of sinners," or he is not. He says he is. So either he is truly the "chief of sinners," saved only by the mercy of God, or he is presenting to us a false modesty. I do not believe that the Gospel is a matter of playing word games and making a pretense of humility. Paul knew that he was, continued to be, the "chief of sinners," and that his (as well as our) only hope is in the mercy of God in forgiving undeserving sinners. All glory be to Christ who has earned our salvation, our forgiveness, our acceptance with God, for us, the "chiefs of sinners." |
