| Author | Message | ||
| Patti |
Never! It was Paul's NON-blaspheming, NON-persecuting, NON-violent CHANGED character that testified -- not to his own righteousness -- but that of his Lord alone. When did he EVER indicate this? It was not his changed life, but his fearless preaching of Jesus Christ that was his powerful testimony. | ||
| Valm |
God has given me a wonderful day. I woke up late and my son missed his bus so I took him to school. My 5 year old went with us as I was planning to volunteer at his school and him and I went to Starbucks for breakfast. Yes Max, I had that ladies drink, a venti decaf nonfat no whip mocha. Complete with the health benefits of coffee and chocolate (antioxidant) and the fat free excellent source of calcium for my 40 something body. OK back to the point. The barista was just radiant. I had overheard her talk to the customer in front of me about seeing him at church. She just overflowed with joy and kindness towards Anthony. The energy she exuberated was not her own, clearly from the Lord. The people sitting near us, well the same thing. I could feel their exuberance also. One of them had a couple of books and I scanned the titles to find them books about the scripture. Again clearly energy given to them by God. They said nothing to me about Christ, but I could sense that I was in a room with people connected to God. Just being there gave me a lift. I went to Anthony's school and was given another blessing. All of the kids I read with had gone up a level. And they were just reading so well. Then a little boy I have been working with who usually shows much resistance was not only ontrack but very engaging with me. He accomplished more in five minutes today than I have seen in any of the time I have spent with him weekly since October. Also it is perfectly sunny here today. My points. First just a verbal appreciation to God for the good day. I needed the lift. Second, while the folks in Starbucks did not verbally witness to me and had no awarness of it, they ministered to my soul. I can not articulate how just being around them and sensing their exuberance (coming from God) gave me the assurance I needed as well as energized me to work with the kids. Third, although I did not witness Christ to these kids, I was of service to them. I hope and pray that somehow my love for them will be remembered and helpful to them someday. I hope that they sense that this love comes from God as much as I did at Starbucks. Fourth, what a joy it is to do for others. There are many times in my life I have fallen flat out on my face. I have not Loved God or my neighbor as myself. I have not exuberated the Love that God is perfectly willing to have flow through me. And that is SUCH A SHAME. I have lost the opportunity to be a part of something wonderful. I have lost the opportunity to point someone to Jesus either now or later. People DO ASK people what makes life work for you. As a follower of Jesus, I do not point to my works, I point to Jesus. I also have the opportunity to tell them that I have my days when I have not allowed God's Spirit to flow through me. (Lest i boast my own righteousness) I guess my point is that Patti you are correct that Christ is the center of all of this. There is the inherent danger of becoming self righteous by mentally charting our spiritual progress and our "works" for the Lord. This is both to us and to those we witness to. However, there is also the undeniable and palpable energy I sense when in a room with one or more people on FIRE for GOD. There is also the undeniable reality that other people sense it and want to know about it. | ||
| Max |
^^...there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.^^ Not "unto them also who fight good fights," but "unto them also that love His appearing."^^ Oops! That is an incorrect interpretation of 2 Timothy 4:6-8. The corrrect: Yes, unto them who fight good fights AND ALSO love his appearing. It's a both-and situation, not an either-or situation. But the deeper meaning of this text totally blows out of the water any theory that denies transformed lives witnessing to the cross. The NIV text note to 2 Timothy 4:7: "In this verse Paul looks back over 30 years of labor as an apostle (c. A.A. 36-66). Like an athlete who had engaged successfully in a contest ("fought the good fight"), HE had "finished the race" and had "kept the faith," i.e., HAD CAREFULLY OBSERVED THE RULES (THE TEACHINGS) OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH (see 2:5)." He did not carefully observe the rules in order to obtain salvation, for he possessed that by the "fist of God to the face" action of pure grace on the road to Damascus. Rather, he carefully observed the rules because he possessed salvation already. For as Luther put it, "We are saved by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone." James put it only slightly differently: "Show me your faith WITHOUT deeds, and I will show you my faith BY what I do." James 2:19 NIV. | ||
| Max |
^^How can we truly love and long for His appearing if we are still looking to ourselves for confirmation of our acceptance with God?^^ True believers don't are not "looking to ourselves for confirmation of our acceptance with God." | ||
| Max |
^^How can we look up and say, "This is our God, we have waited for Him and He will save us" if we are not depending (trusting, believing, having confidence--faith--in) the great saving act of Jesus Christ for us?^^ We do trust. A life of trust is not a life of demonic "head faith," but one of Christ-like "heart faith." | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^"I determined to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Jesus is ENOUGH. HE is the Gospel. We can testify with confidence of our acceptance with God, because Jesus Christ, our Substitute and Surety, was resurrected from the dead and ascended to the very presence of God Himself. Jesus was accepted, the Lamb was worthy; therefore, I can be assured that I, too, because of the doing and dying of Jesus Christ, am accepted by the Father. And, not me only, but all who trust in Him. This is the Gospel. This is the perfect testimony: Jesus Christ has saved His people to the uttermost. To Him be all glory and honor and blessing forever.^^ Yes, and the testimony to the cross of our Spirit-filled actions speaks louder than the testimony of words of any person who denies the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Of course. "Faith comes of hearing." "How shall we hear unless we have a teacher?" Faith does not come of observing someone's changed character, but of hearing of our acceptance with God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ.^^ This statement denies the Scripture which says, "Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do." James 2:18 NIV. It denies the Scripture which says, "We, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being TRANSFORMED INTO HIS LIKE- NESS WITH EVER-INCREASING GLORY, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." 2 Corinthians 3:18 NIV. And many other Scriptures which have been quoted over and over on this website. | ||
| Patti |
Yes, and the testimony to the cross of our Spirit-filled actions speaks louder than the testimony of words of any person who denies the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. You are saying, then, Max, that your life stands as a greater testimony to Jesus Christ than Paul's words that we are saved by the obedience of Jesus Christ. Do I understand you correctly? | ||
| Patti |
I reiterate: Faith does not come of observing someone's changed character, but of hearing of our acceptance with God for the sake of His Son Jesus Christ. And you have offered no scripture that indicates otherwise. Our witness is not us, our changed lives, our great "love" for our fellow man, our "righteousness." And you can find no texts to support your views. It was not the regenerated characters of the disciples that converted an unbelieving populace; it was the Holy Spirit Who, when indwelling the (sinful) believers, inspired and impelled them to tell others of our secured salvation in Jesus Christ with great vigor. It was sinful people, like Paul, like Peter, who fearlessly told an unbelieving and hostile world about the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The Gospel is all about Jesus Christ, and His substitutionary work for mankind: His life (His perfect obedience), His atoning death (for our forgiveness), and His resurrection (our assurance of acceptance with God). To Christ alone be all honor and glory forever. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^If I work myself into being a millionaire, how does that help those living in poverty around me? It may inspire a few to work harder, but sooner or later, they will fail in despair. Others it will merely make envious. The only thing that will give them any hope at all is the perfection of Jesus Christ. If folks are looking at us for an example of righteousness, they will surely be disappointed the more they really know about is. Surely an honest self-examination (such as Denise has shown to us here) will reveal this fact.^^ Working one's "self into being a millionaire" isn't Christian witnessing. "The only thing that will give" "those living in poverty around me" "any hope at all is the perfection of Jesus Christ" as lived out in our lives by loving words and actions. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Paul's witness is not one of his being Christ-like; his message was not one of forgiveness just for the past and of truimph over his sinful human flesh in the present. His message was one of forgiveness and acceptance in spite of his inability to do the things that he knew that he should. This is exactly what I have been trying to get across. NO PART of our witness is about ourselves, except, as Paul witnessed, to the astounding mercy of God in forgiving sinners, "of whom I am chief." It is all about forgiveness. "If we think we are without sin, we deceive ourselves and the Truth is not in us." If we think we are doing OK, that we are becoming more sinless and are emulating Christ, we are fooling ourselves. The more we see of the sinless perfection of Christ, the more sinful we see ourselves, not the LESS.^^ "Paul's witness is not one of his being Christ- like," but his Christ-like life witnessed to the cross. "NO PART of our witness is about ourselves," for we ourselves ARE Christ's witnesses in Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth. "The more we see of the sinless perfection of Christ, the more sinful we see ourselves, not the LESS." How true! | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^I know you would never advocate our thinking that we are sinless; so why do we witness to something that will always be full of sin, i.e. our characters?^^ Maryann may not. She can speak for herself. But the writer of Hebrews DOES! For being perfect in Christ MEANS being sinless in Christ. NIV Hebrews 10:12-13: [Christ] sat down at the right hand of God. Since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool, because by ONE sacrifice he HAS MADE PERFECT FOREVER those who are being made holy. "So why do we witness to something that will always be full of sin, i.e. our characters?" We don't. Our characters witness. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^We never, never are in a position to point others to our own holiness.^^ How true, for it is Christ's holiness IN us that points others to the cross. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Our testimony to a hungering and thirsting world is not, "Look at me; you can have what I have," but, "Look to Christ; He forgives sinners. Completely."^^ Indeed, for our loving words and actions ARE the testimony of the cross "to a hungering and thirsting world." | ||
| Patti |
How true, for it is Christ's holiness IN us that points others to the cross. Romans 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^"What what happens in us witnesses to what happened on the cross" If this is true, then when we sin, when we fall short of God's glory, then we have no more witness.^^ No, to the contrary, "If anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...." 1 John 2:1-2 NIV. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^James also says that if we fall short of the smallest demand of the law, we are guilty of it all.^^ True. But we are not working TOWARD victory, but rather FROM victory, Christ's victory for us on the cross. Therefore, "If anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense -- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins...." 1 John 2:1-2 NIV. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^We are righteous by faith only, NEVER in reality, until this corruptible puts on incorruption.^^ Faith IS a reality, a spiritual reality. "Faith is being SURE of what we hope for and CERTAIN of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1 NIV. To deny the reality of faith is to deny the reality of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit put WITHIN all true believers by divine right of Christ's "once for all time, once for all people" action on the cross. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can honestly examine his/her own life and think that it in any way glorifies God.^^ I don't know of anyone on this website who is doing that. ^^I do know myself, and I know that in myself, I have nothing to brag about; no righteousness to tout before humanity as evidence of Christ's salvation.^^ Does your love love? Do you deny the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in your life? Do you by your actions show the love of Christ within you? Or do you "speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love"? | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Christianity is not about changed lives...^^ But changed lives are about Christianity. ^^[Christianity] is about the forgiveness and acceptance of hopeless sinners. It is about the justification (setting right with God) of the ungodly, not the making righteous of repentant sinners.^^ That's what I've been saying for over a year on this website. ^^Our continuous hope and strength come from our continued state of forgiveness, not upon the state of our character.^^ Amen. I do appreciate that phrase -- "our continued state of forgiveness." For it is from the vantage point of "our continued state of forgiveness" that * our faith works, * our "faith that is not alone" flourishes, * we who have been "made perfect [sinless!] forever ... are BEING MADE HOLY!" * our love loves. |
